NationStates Jolt Archive

In the UK there is a big hoo haa about not getting enough convictions for rape.

One of the reasons cited for not getting enough convictions is because - juries will not convict a man of raping a woman when she has been drinking too much alcohol and she cannot prove she did not give consent.

To counter this they want to change the law. In effect it is basically going to be illegal to have sex with a drunk woman (a bit like statutory rape) by saying a woman can never consent to having sex when drunk.

Anyone who has ever got completely blooto will know:

That there is always a point where you are drunk enough to do things you would not normally do and then regret them in the morning.

There is always a point where you do things and you have no recollection of doing them the next day (usually followed with your "mates" gleefully telling you of your "exploits" much to your embarrassment).

Is there anyone else out there who thinks this is a bit of ill thought out reasoning to change the law to one that basically makes it illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk?

I acknowledge that there are men out there who will rape a woman who is drunk. But how do you prove it? I venture it is next to impossible under the current legislation, but is the proposed change better, worse and/or just ill thought out?

What are your thoughts NS people? :confused:

Wait, so what's going to happen to all the drunk girls at the bar around last call?

Really, this is a no brainer.

If a woman is drunk, IMHO she can't honestly give consent. Same if she's stoned or high.

I would feel guilty hitting it even if she invited me to do so.

Plus, it's just not that fun fucking a drunk woman - they have a tendency to barf, are flaccid and unresponsive, and smell like a distillery. And if you're lucky, she'll pee on ya.

Are you guys so hard up that you'll fuck a seriously drunk or unconscious woman?

I think we may as well just go ahead and outlaw stupidity.

It's been my personal policy not to have sex with a drunk woman because I can't really be sure she's consenting, but I don't see that it needs to be made illegal.

God, if it was made illegal to have sex with drunk people then there would be several guys in prison by now. Most of those guys i would probably not have had sex with while sober either, or at least not have let them do that
Mind you, most people wouldtn convict a guy of rape unless they actually were raped tho.

Are you guys so hard up that you'll fuck a seriously drunk or unconscious woman?

Doesnt that depend on how drunk the guy was aswell tho?

Most of those guys i would probably not have had sex with while sober either, or at least not have let them do that

What? That part where they bent you back over the hood of the car and put your ankles up behind your neck?

Wait...they're upset they're aren't ENOUGH convictions?

"Oh no! Not enough people are being raped! DEPLOY HER MAJESTY'S UP THE ASS SQUAD!"

God, if it was made illegal to have sex with drunk people then there would be several guys in prison by now. Most of those guys i would probably not have had sex with while sober either, or at least not have let them do that
Mind you, most people wouldtn convict a guy of rape unless they actually were raped tho.

That is so true. Deep down inside I know that if you dirty whores don't want it, at least you deserve it.

Come on now, are you really saying that most juries approve of rape?

What? That part where they bent you back over the hood of the car and put your ankles up behind your neck?

They didnt do that to me no, but it did manage to wake me up (which was really quite a good trick as i was barely concious).

Its a massively grey area, and to some extent its the womans fault for getting in such a state that she is unable to walk or interact properly.

Question is it also possible to have a point where a guy is too drunk to give consent?


If so what happens if a drunk guy and a drunk woman shag? Who raped whom?


Mutual rape! Lock 'em both up!

Well, I agree with the change. It's much better to err on the side of the victim than not. It's against the law here in the US, and in Tennessee you putting anything in any orifice in a drunk woman is rape.

As my parents told me as I was growing up:
No means no. When she's drunk, yes means no too.

Wait...they're upset they're aren't ENOUGH convictions?

"Oh no! Not enough people are being raped! DEPLOY HER MAJESTY'S UP THE ASS SQUAD!"

They mean out of the cases that go to court.

Its a massively grey area, and to some extent its the womans fault for getting in such a state that she is unable to walk or interact properly.

Just cause your a bit pissed doesnt mean you deserve to be raped!!!!!!

Doesnt that depend on how drunk the guy was aswell tho?

Look - it's simple. If a woman wants a man to fuck her, all she has to do is whistle.

She doesn't have to down twenty pints in two hours to impress him first.

Question is it also possible to have a point where a guy is too drunk to give consent?


If so what happens if a drunk guy and a drunk woman shag? Who raped whom?


Mutual rape! Lock 'em both up!

The guy gets 'whiskey dick' and can't shag to begin with.

Most girls become amorous when they drink too much, it seems outlandish and absurd to refuse to take this into account in rape accusations.

Well, I agree with the change. It's much better to err on the side of the victim than not. It's against the law here in the US, and in Tennessee you putting anything in any orifice in a drunk woman is rape.

Thats a damn good addition, cause fuck can that be scary.

Just cause your a bit pissed doesnt mean you deserve to be raped!!!!!!

No but if you're a bit pissed and walk up to the nearest guy and demand a fuck that's hardly rape. If I'm not mistaken legally you're accountable for your behavior even when drunk. Unless of course you were boozed up without your knowledge or consent.

The guy gets 'whiskey dick' and can't shag to begin with.

Most girls become amorous when they drink too much, it seems outlandish and absurd to refuse to take this into account in rape accusations.

So I can ply all the british guys with booze and fuck 'em silly?

The guy gets 'whiskey dick' and can't shag to begin with.

Not all guys, some are still quite capable even if they have no memory of it in the morning.

Just cause your a bit pissed doesnt mean you deserve to be raped!!!!!!

No, and just because you leave your Porsche unlocked with the keys on the dashboard doesn't mean you deserve to get your car stolen, but it does make you stupid to put yourself at that kind of risk.

No, and just because you leave your Porsche unlocked with the keys on the dashboard doesn't mean you deserve to get your car stolen, but it does make you stupid to put yourself at that kind of risk.

Not to mention when the guy and his eight friends have finished reaming out every orifice, then they get out a permanent marker and tattoo your face like a Maori tribesman...

Not to mention when the guy and his eight friends have finished reaming out every orifice, then they get out a permanent marker and tattoo your face like a Maori tribesman...

and post the pics on the Internet...

and post the pics on the Internet...

I take it you have had a few experiences with that then? Do tell (us the website).

I often went out, with the intent at the onset, of finding someone to fuck, and would get drunk and do so. So did my friends. Was I incapable of giving consent? Hell no, and I would have been mighty upset if I was denied my carnal pleasure because I was drunk.

However, how do you know? I do know girls who would not have wanted that outcome, but who were too drunk to really know what was going on.

I should point out that it's not rape if a sober woman has sex with a drunk man. It's basically saying that a man is capable of giving consent whether he is sober or drunk, but a woman isn't.

Look - it's simple. If a woman wants a man to fuck her, all she has to do is whistle.

She doesn't have to down twenty pints in two hours to impress him first.

I think i can honesty say, as a 19 year old size 10 female, that it really isnt any easier for a girl to get a guy than it is for a guy to get a girl. I cant get one and its not cause im fat or ugly, i just cant.

I should point out that it's not rape if a sober woman has sex with a drunk man. It's basically saying that a man is capable of giving consent whether he is sober or drunk, but a woman isn't.

Well its not really that easy for a girl to rape a guy is it? i mean if it floppy, its just not going in.

Its a massively grey area, and to some extent its the womans fault for getting in such a state that she is unable to walk or interact properly.

So a guy should be able to do the same with no consequences, but a woman who gets stinking drunk is just asking to be raped? Maybe women should start violating the anii of men if they pass out.

it seems to be a proposal predicated on the notion that sex is something men take from women.

it defines rape as a male on female crime when we know that rape is an equal opportunity crime that comes in all gender combinations.

it defines women as incapable of consent or at least being prone to being tricked into sex. a drunk woman can decide to have sex. it happens all the time. most of the time they are perfectly happy with the outcome. sometimes they have used bad judgement in their choice of partner but that doesnt make it rape.

what the UK needs is better education as to what happens to a person who is so under the influence that s/he is incapable of consenting or participating in sex.

sex with the virtually or actually unconscious is rape. sex with a willing drunk isnt.

legislating private consentual behavior is a bad idea.

I should point out that it's not rape if a sober woman has sex with a drunk man. It's basically saying that a man is capable of giving consent whether he is sober or drunk, but a woman isn't.

it seems to be a proposal predicated on the notion that sex is something men take from women.

it defines rape as a male on female crime when we know that rape is an equal opportunity crime that comes in all gender combinations.

it defines women as incapable of consent or at least being prone to being tricked into sex. a drunk woman can decide to have sex. it happens all the time. most of the time they are perfectly happy with the outcome. sometimes they have used bad judgement in their choice of partner but that doesnt make it rape.

what the UK needs is better education as to what happens to a person who is so under the influence that s/he is incapable of consenting or participating in sex.

sex with the virtually or actually unconscious is rape. sex with a willing drunk isnt.

legislating private consentual behavior is a bad idea.

*nod*

Excellent points.

Bullshit. If you give consent, even if it's 'cause your decision making process is impaired, then you did not get raped.

By that logic, anyone who marries someone with mild retardation is a rapist. Because their decision-making process is impaired, is it not?

I think i can honesty say, as a 19 year old size 10 female, that it really isnt any easier for a girl to get a guy than it is for a guy to get a girl. I cant get one and its not cause im fat or ugly, i just cant.

You must have "standards" or something. Ditch those and it's easy as hell.

So a guy should be able to do the same with no consequences, but a woman who gets stinking drunk is just asking to be raped? Maybe women should start violating the anii of men if they pass out.

But thats why its not so dangerous for guys, what do you violate it with????

I think i can honesty say, as a 19 year old size 10 female, that it really isnt any easier for a girl to get a guy than it is for a guy to get a girl. I cant get one and its not cause im fat or ugly, i just cant.

I'll be right over.

Thats a damn good addition, cause fuck can that be scary.

Okay, now you just got to tell us what was done to you...

Okay, now you just got to tell us what was done to you...

This thread is useless without pictures.

Okay, now you just got to tell us what was done to you...

Do you really want to know about all the times that i have had something done to me while drunk that under this could be classed as rape? It may take some time.

Well its not really that easy for a girl to rape a guy is it? i mean if it floppy, its just not going in.

there are more kinds of rape than "penis in vagina".

if a girl can be drunk enough to participate but the act can somehow be judged as rape afterwards, wouldnt it also be correct if a man is drunk enough to perform but has been somehow manipulated into doing what he wouldnt have done if sober?

In the UK there is a big hoo haa about not getting enough convictions for rape.

One of the reasons cited for not getting enough convictions is because - juries will not convict a man of raping a woman when she has been drinking too much alcohol and she cannot prove she did not give consent.

To counter this they want to change the law. In effect it is basically going to be illegal to have sex with a drunk woman (a bit like statutory rape) by saying a woman can never consent to having sex when drunk.

Anyone who has ever got completely blooto will know:

That there is always a point where you are drunk enough to do things you would not normally do and then regret them in the morning.

There is always a point where you do things and you have no recollection of doing them the next day (usually follwed with your "mates" gleefully telling you of your "exploits" much to your embarrassment).

Is there anyone else out there who thinks this is a bit of ill thought out reasoning to change the law that basically makes it illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk?

I acknowledge that there are men out there who will rape a woman who is drunk. But how do you prove it? I venture it is next to impossible under the current legislation, but is the proposed change better, worse and/or just ill thought out?

What are your thoughts NS people? :confused:at the same notion, haveing sex with a drunk guy should also be outlawed.

and what defines drunk? the same Blood Alcohol level used for driving? and who administers that test?

(thinks of the joke when the cop pulls over a blonde, he then unzips his fly and her response is "Oh God, not another breathalyzer test!")

and would the charge still be Rape, or would it be Fornicating Under the Influence?

there are more kinds of rape than "penis in vagina".

if a girl can be drunk enough to participate but the act can somehow be judged as rape afterwards, wouldnt it also be correct if a man is drunk enough to perform but has been somehow manipulated into doing what he wouldnt have done if sober?

That usually happens with men and sheep, or men and goats.

But thats why its not so dangerous for guys, what do you violate it with????

A foreign object. Just like happens in many cases of male on female rape. Rape isn't just penis-vagina intercourse...

I'll be right over.

I thought you were female?

Or are you just offering her a non-male option?

A foreign object. Just like happens in many cases of male on female rape. Rape isn't just penis-vagina intercourse...

I jsut feel innocent now. Ok.

So a guy should be able to do the same with no consequences, but a woman who gets stinking drunk is just asking to be raped? Maybe women should start violating the anii of men if they pass out.

So is it right for people to drink themselves stupid, this in the UK is a regular occurance for 16-35 year olds every weekend. The girls go out in the short skirts and skinny tops, now I'm not saying its right they are raped but perhaps their actions do have something to do with it?

I thought you were female?

Or are you just offering her a non-male option?

Does it matter?

Actually, it would be a long, long swim...

I thought you were female?

Or are you just offering her a non-male option?

Isnt he male?? I assumed he/she was but...

Isnt he male?? I assumed he/she was but...

First rule of the Internet:

All men are male.

All people who claim to be women are male.

Rape is defined as unwanted penetration. so it can be with a finger, a foriegn object or anything that is put into another person's body without their consent.

http://www.eve-online.com/

It's where the name comes from

That usually happens with men and sheep, or men and goats.

those nasty nasty sheep took advantage of him!

I jsut feel innocent now. Ok.

You're kidding...right?

I mean, rape can include oral sex, sodomy, rape with an object etc etc.

So is it right for people to drink themselves stupid, this in the UK is a regular occurance for 16-35 year olds every weekend. The girls go out in the short skirts and skinny tops, now I'm not saying its right they are raped but perhaps their actions do have something to do with it?

Maybe they want to have consensual sex with a person they find attractive, rather than be raped?

So if a guy forces a girl to give him a blowjob, it can be classed as rape?

First rule of the Internet:

All men are male.

All people who claim to be women are male.

*stares down at disappointment at the penis that just won't grow*

So if a guy forces a girl to give him a blowjob, it can be classed as rape?

Yes.

So if a guy forces a girl to give him a blowjob, it can be classed as rape?

Yep.

Of course, the Girl can also... err... bite down.... hard...

Maybe they want to have consensual sex with a person they find attractive, rather than be raped?

Yes but do you think its a good idea that they get legless every friday and saturday night?

Well then. Well. I think that brings my total of times i have had something done to me that could be counted as rape up to three then.
And with that i will sign off, put on an ultra skimpy skirt and go to the pub.

First rule of the Internet:

All men are male.

All people who claim to be women are male.

*thinks about Smunkee, Peechland, Cabra West, Darknovae, TBD, TINKS! *

:eek:
NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo - takes breath - ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Maybe they want to have consensual sex with a person they find attractive, rather than be raped?

The point isn't that they're "asking for" rape, just that they're putting themselves at a greater risk of rape and if they're going to do that they should take precautions, like having a sober friend around or something.

So if a guy forces a girl to give him a blowjob, it can be classed as rape?

Let's be a little more explanatory:

If you're in a room or car with a guy, and he won't let you leave, that's imprisonment.

If you're being forced to do any sexual act against your will, that's rape.

If anyone touches you (and I mean, touch) and it is an "unwanted touching" and you made clear that you didn't want to be touched, that's assault.

Maybe they want to have consensual sex with a person they find attractive, rather than be raped?
Dressing so that they look like prostitutes sort of undermines this a bit. Although, yes, I do agree with you.

But it is a bit of a grey area - if you're willing to get so blatentely hammered that you couldn't refuse anything, then you might well get raped.

On the other hand, men shouldn't really take advantage of this at all.

Although when both parties are drunk, both sides'll have some trouble saying no. Men who might normally not take advantage of women might... urmm... loosen up abit.

*sighs*

It's all rather hard an issue to make sweeping statements over, sadly. Sadly, because I can sum myself up in about 8 words or something if that's the case.

Well its not really that easy for a girl to rape a guy is it? i mean if it floppy, its just not going in.

One word: Tourniqet.

So if a guy forces a girl to give him a blowjob, it can be classed as rape?

Yes. Although in Canada, the common law crime of rape has been replaced with the statutory crime of sexual assault.

So is it right for people to drink themselves stupid, this in the UK is a regular occurance for 16-35 year olds every weekend. The girls go out in the short skirts and skinny tops, now I'm not saying its right they are raped but perhaps their actions do have something to do with it?

and there is the crux eh?

the vast majority of women who go out drinking on any given weekend night and end up having sex do so willingly. there are no allegations of rape invovled.

those who end up making accusations of rape have a reason for doing so. it turns out that no matter how attractive a woman is and how provocatively she dresses, she still gets to CHOOSE who she will have sex with. the vast majority of men know that even when they are stinking drunk. those few who see a vulnerable woman and decide to force her into sex are committing rape no matter how much or little she has been drinking.

and there is the crux eh?

the vast majority of women who go out drinking on any given weekend night and end up having sex do so willingly. there are no allegations of rape invovled.

those who end up making accusations of rape have a reason for doing so. it turns out that no matter how attractive a woman is and how provocatively she dresses, she still gets to CHOOSE who she will have sex with. the vast majority of men know that even when they are stinking drunk. those few who see a vulnerable woman and decide to force her into sex are committing rape no matter how much or little she has been drinking.

He made it clear that it's not right that they're raped. He doesn't disagree with you on that.

those who end up making accusations of rape have a reason for doing so. it turns out that no matter how attractive a woman is and how provocatively she dresses, she still gets to CHOOSE who she will have sex with. the vast majority of men know that even when they are stinking drunk. those few who see a vulnerable woman and decide to force her into sex are committing rape no matter how much or little she has been drinking.

Well that's just no fun...douses water on the whole 'women are the real culprits here' argument.

From one man to another, its really fucking sad if you have to get a girl drunk to fuck her, and if you're sober and she's drunk, than you should'nt be messing around with her, because thats just plain wrong. No self respecting *man would do such a thing. Now if she's only a little typsy or buzzed, *still well in control of her actions* its different, but seriously, just put the effort in to getting laid and you will, you don't need booze, or drugs, that just proves you must have a small penis, or you're insecure about your own self.

Let's be a little more explanatory:

If you're in a room or car with a guy, and he won't let you leave, that's imprisonment.

If you're being forced to do any sexual act against your will, that's rape.

If anyone touches you (and I mean, touch) and it is an "unwanted touching" and you made clear that you didn't want to be touched, that's assault.

Ok, then that just makes it two cases of 'rape' and one case of assault. Still not fun.

and what defines drunk? the same Blood Alcohol level used for driving? and who administers that test?

Yeah. Obviously sex with someone who is almost passing out isn't really consenting sex (and who would want that, anyway?), but where's the limit? Is it still rape if she follows him to his appartment, where she's offered some wine? What if she actually drinks in order to get the courage to ask him?

He made it clear that it's not right that they're raped. He doesn't disagree with you on that.

then what difference does it make if she was drinking? women are allowed to go out in public after dark.

is he suggesting that men are so weak minded that they will hump any immobile female they come across? that they have no free will in choosing to not rape a drunk woman?

It doesn't matter how a woman dresses. She could be start raving naked and dancing in your lap, if she says no by God it's no.

As for the case of two drunk people having sex, that IS a gray area. Around here, it tends to be a "Well, who was drunker?" I imagine that doesn't go so well for the guy.

As someone else said, women who go out and get drunk and have sex will do so. The accusation of rape is uncommon, or at least I hope it is.

Is it still rape if she follows him to his appartment, where she's offered some wine? What if she actually drinks in order to get the courage to ask him?

1. Yes.
2. If she has to drink in order to "get the courage to ask him" you're obviously living in the Matrix, and this is a test simulation. Better not to fuck her.

Hmm, i think its time for me to leave this topic properly this time as it bringing up a few very very very unpleasant memories.

Oh it does matter how a woman is dressed mix that with alcohol and something is bound to happen. The concept of when both the man and woman are drunk is a good point, the 'beer goggles' act on both so in a court of law is evidence reliable from the persons involved?

Yeah. Obviously sex with someone who is almost passing out isn't really consenting sex (and who would want that, anyway?), but where's the limit? Is it still rape if she follows him to his appartment, where she's offered some wine? What if she actually drinks in order to get the courage to ask him?

and then you have medications that have the simliar effects of Alcohol... and drugs that don't stay long enough in the system to be detected...

you don't need booze, or drugs, that just proves you must have a small penis, or you're insecure about your own self.

Or that you tend to meet women in areas where it's customary to drink, like a pub, bar or club.

It doesn't matter how a woman dresses. She could be start raving naked and dancing in your lap, if she says no by God it's no.
I am fully aware of this, but women wearing very, very little can get drunk men a bit... urmm... 'excited' and prone to do very stupid things.

Wearing little clothing also suggests that you're up for it.



I know that this might sound like I'm trying to say that rape is entirely women's fault if they're drunk and skimpily dressed, but that's because I'm not particularly articulate at times.

This is one of those times when blame rests with both parties.

If women are prepared to get very drunk and wear very little around men who are probably going to be drunk and horny themselves, then the consequences are pretty self-evident.

On the other hand, if a man takes advantage of a drunken woman then that's out of order too.

Or that you tend to meet women in areas where it's customary to drink, like a pub, bar or club.

Whats wrong with that? The drinking of alcohol in social environments has been a practice by humans for many a year. Where else are people ment to be meet, its not the Victorian ages anymore where you meet girls through your parents.

then what difference does it make if she was drinking? women are allowed to go out in public after dark.

is he suggesting that men are so weak minded that they will hump any immobile female they come across? that they have no free will in choosing to not rape a drunk woman?

I think he may be suggesting that when folks act in such a way as to stimulate sexual interest and lowered inhibitions, they might not be quite so affronted when they get sexual interest and lowered inhibitions.

That said, there have been several occasions where I've had a drunk woman acting overly friendly with me, and I easily had the willpower to refrain from "humping" them. Instead, I made sure they got home safely. Novel idea, I know. ;)

Could a guy, being prosecuted for having sex with a drunk girl on the basis that she couldn't have given consent, not turn around and say "well, hang on, I was wasted too, how could I have possible given consent to her?" leading to the brilliant situation where they're both being done for rape, until everybody realises the stupidity of the situation and acquits them both?

Whats wrong with that? The drinking of alcohol in social environments has been a practice by humans for many a year. Where else are people ment to be meet, its not the Victorian ages anymore where you meet girls through your parents.

Yep, that was my point :)

I am fully aware of this, but women wearing very, very little can get drunk men a bit... urmm... 'excited' and prone to do very stupid things.

Wearing little clothing also suggests that you're up for it.
Oh fuck that. What does a man have to wear to suggest he's up for a little rape, hmm? Women dress as is the fashion, the fashion almost always being what makes a woman most attractive. Don't bring what we wear into this...there is no 'rape outfit' we should be avoiding.

So a drunk woman, in unflattering, unrevealing clothes...is safe?

Hardly.

I am fully aware of this, but women wearing very, very little can get drunk men a bit... urmm... 'excited' and prone to do very stupid things.

Wearing little clothing also suggests that you're up for it.



I know that this might sound like I'm trying to say that rape is entirely women's fault if they're drunk and skimpily dressed, but that's because I'm not particularly articulate at times.

This is one of those times when blame rests with both parties.

If women are prepared to get very drunk and wear very little around men who are probably going to be drunk and horny themselves, then the consequences are pretty self-evident.

On the other hand, if a man takes advantage of a drunken woman then that's out of order too.

That's a good point of course, I was just saying.

I do believe in accountability for both parties, it's just easier for a man to rape a drunk woman. How will we know if he was drunk at the time, or faking it and waiting for the right moment?

Could a guy, being prosecuted for having sex with a drunk girl on the basis that she couldn't have given consent, not turn around and say "well, hang on, I was wasted too, how could I have possible given consent to her?" leading to the brilliant situation where they're both being done for rape, until everybody realises the stupidity of the situation and acquits them both?
Let's be honest - most of the time, if a previously drunk man or woman wakes up in someone else's bed, their first thought is not going to be "time to ring the police", it's more "rightio then - best find the way to work".

Oh fuck that. What does a man have to wear to suggest he's up for a little rape, hmm?

Well, if he has those pants with the buttcheeks exposed, and the words "FUCK ME HERE" written above his butt with marker, that's probably a good hint there.

Well, if he has those pants with the buttcheeks exposed, and the words "FUCK ME HERE" written above his butt with marker, that's probably a good hint there.

So a man would have to go to extreme lengths to be in a 'rape' outfit...but a woman would just have to be fashionable.

Nice.

Well, if he has those pants with the buttcheeks exposed, and the words "FUCK ME HERE" written above his butt with marker, that's probably a good hint there.

I once saw a guy who had a Begin Two-Way Traffic sign tattooed to his ass.

True story.

So a man would have to go to extreme lengths to be in a 'rape' outfit...but a woman would just have to be fashionable.

Nice.

I'm trying to be facetious.

Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping or being raped by a clown.

Besides the whole "what defines rape" issue, how many people caught the fact that this whole concept basically screams "women are weak and must be protected".

If you get rid of alcohol, you wouldn't have this problem.

If you get of alcohol, you wouldn't have this problem.

Yep, prohibition works.

If you get of alcohol, you wouldn't have this problem.

Yes and if women would just wear burqas and hijabs we'd all be right with god. :rolleyes:

Yep, prohibition works.

it works in many places

it works in many places

Like?

Like?

Anywhere people are kept too ignorant to know how to build a still.

Like?

Saudi Arabia where they have no rape at all.

it works in many places

Yes, Prohibition in America brought in a new era of prosperity and wealth.

For the Mafia.

Yes and if women would just wear burqas and hijabs we'd all be right with god. :rolleyes:

Not only would this please God, I think it would cut down a rape a lot. I'm not blaming the victim here or anything because women shouldn't be raped period but you have to admit that if women dressed more modestly there would be less temption for rape. Women should be respected as people, not paraded around as sex objects.

I'm not blaming the victim here *snip*

Yes you are and that's part of the image of your religion that makes it so distastful to so many people. ;)

Not only would this please God, I think it would cut down a rape a lot. I'm not blaming the victim here or anything because women shouldn't be raped period but you have to admit that if women dressed more modestly there would be less temption for rape. Women should be respected as people, not paraded around as sex objects.

Or, you know, men should be able to control themselves.

Apparently they can't, according to you. Yet you praise cultural practices that have one purpose; to give men control of society. The very men that, apparently, can't even control themselves. Nice.

Saudi Arabia where they have no rape at all.

I hope you forgot to use the sarcasm tag. :confused:

Not only would this please God, I think it would cut down a rape a lot. I'm not blaming the victim here or anything because women shouldn't be raped period but you have to admit that if women dressed more modestly there would be less temption for rape. Women should be respected as people, not paraded around as sex objects.

You are the reason people despise Islam.

I hope you forgot to use the sarcasm tag. :confused:

Okay, from reading your other posts I see that you did. Sorry. ;)

it works in many places

Where? You don't think people get drunk in Saudi Arabia? I've got news for you, people get drunk there. You only get punished for it if you're poor, though.

I hope you forgot to use the sarcasm tag. :confused:

I didn't really think it was necessary :p

I think rape is bad. But if your drunk then you should be excused. Alcohol is manditory in my country. If you don't drink you go to prison.

Soviestan's answer to the problem of rape.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/exforcesuk/talibanwife.jpg

If women only stayed in their place they wouldn't tempt all those poor men into raping them. Instead, they just rape young men who can take it.

Along with rules about not smoking cigarettes and not allowing murderers to join the Taliban, there also is this entry: Taliban "are not allowed to take young boys with no facial hair onto the battlefield or into their private quarters."

Sexual abuse, says Rizvi, has always been a problem for the movement, especially in some of the madrassas (religious schools) that feed recruits to the movement.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/06/schuster.12.6/index.html

TTop got all 14 of his posts at once I see. ;)

You are the reason people despise Islam.

Nice, isn't it, how he advocates the burqa etc. as a means to respect women "as people", yet supports a social, religious, and cultural movement which is based upon and around the subjugation of women and the treatment of them as decidedly second-class people.

TTop got all 14 of his posts at once I see. ;)

I beg the mods to leave them there. That's brilliant.

Nice, isn't it, how he advocates the burqa etc. as a means to respect women "as people", yet supports a social, religious, and cultural movement which is based upon and around the subjugation of women and the treatment of them as decidedly second-class people.

He supports irish men?

Soviestan's answer to the problem of rape.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/exforcesuk/talibanwife.jpg

If women only stayed in their place they wouldn't tempt all those poor men into raping them. Instead, they just rape young men who can take it.

Along with rules about not smoking cigarettes and not allowing murderers to join the Taliban, there also is this entry: Taliban "are not allowed to take young boys with no facial hair onto the battlefield or into their private quarters."

Sexual abuse, says Rizvi, has always been a problem for the movement, especially in some of the madrassas (religious schools) that feed recruits to the movement.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/06/schuster.12.6/index.html

Reposted so we can just start from here. Ttop, if it's slow just wait. Don't keep hitting teh back button and trying to post. ;)

He supports irish men?

With the Irish love of drinking? He probably thinks they're all going straight to hell...

I beg the mods to leave them there. That's brilliant.

9/14 of his posts from this one thread. It's fun!

well yea its wouldn't be right but its their choices what they do so it they do it i think its free game thats why we are free. so if you don't want to have sex with some random guy when your drunk get drunk with friends or just don't go. but if you do expect the worst

Laws like this are atrocious.

Basically, what you are requiring is that men have a woman take a breathalyzer before having sex with her. Otherwise he is open for being charged with rape, even if she was the one initiating everything.

This actually happened several years ago at… I think it was Brown University but I could be mistaken.

This guy was accused of raping a girl at a party. She was flirting with him and wanting him to take her upstairs, etc. Afterward, she left her phone number and told him to call her. 2 weeks later, and no call, she gets pissed and charges him with 2nd degree rape alleging that she was drunk and thus he took advantage of her (even though she fully admits she was a willing participant).

You are responsible for your actions when drunk – being female and having sex is no exception. Every man has his fair share of regrettable hookups, yet we do not accuse the woman of rape just because we were drunk.

Saudi Arabia where they have no rape at all.
You owe me a new keyboard.

SNIP

You are responsible for your actions when drunk – being female and having sex is no exception. Every man has his fair share of regrettable hookups, yet we do not accuse the woman of rape just because we were drunk.

Agreed 100%.
If you kill somebody driving drunk, you don't get excused for not being in control of yourself because you're drunk. It should be the same with sex. "I was drunk."
"Well tough."
I agree especially with the last point. Men have sex quite often with those that they would not were they sober, yet nobody would approve of a beer goggle rape law where men could accuse women of rape...

I beg the mods to leave them there. That's brilliant.

I deleted them, but I still have to admit that someone has now broken my record. :(

Sigh. This was the first time I've ever used the option to mass-delete posts.

This is just stupidity. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. If a woman gets raped, the onus is on the courts to decide if she was in fact raped. If a woman has the habit of getting drunk and has difficulty remembering what happened, then she should be a tad more prudent with her drinking.

Question: If a woman has been drinking, and doesn't appear to be drunk, yet in fact is, would the onus be on the man to conduct a sobriety test if the woman consents to a sexual encounter?

One can see the problem with this law? :eek:

Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping or being raped by a clown.

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!:p

This is just stupidity. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. If a woman gets raped, the onus is on the courts to decide if she was in fact raped. If a woman has the habit of getting drunk and has difficulty remembering what happened, then she should be a tad more prudent with her drinking.

Question: If a woman has been drinking, and doesn't appear to be drunk, yet in fact is, would the onus be on the man to conduct a sobriety test if the woman consents to a sexual encounter?

One can see the problem with this law? :eek:

one certainly can.

millions of women have drunken sex on any given weekend in the UK. do they really want to have to handle that many cases?

Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping or being raped by a clown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbLFCjo1nNU

You owe me a new keyboard.

Not a chance :D

one certainly can.

millions of women have drunken sex on any given weekend in the UK. do they really want to have to handle that many cases?
I can see it all now:

I Alicia _______ being of sound mind and sober whilst commencing this date with the Marquis de Sade do hereby declare that if I have a sexual encounter after having had too much alcohol to drink with this man then that would be FANTASTIC!!

:D

Here is what happens if you drink too much......this is hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN6snrWxqvo&NR

Enjoy!!

This is just stupidity. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. If a woman gets raped, the onus is on the courts to decide if she was in fact raped. If a woman has the habit of getting drunk and has difficulty remembering what happened, then she should be a tad more prudent with her drinking.

Question: If a woman has been drinking, and doesn't appear to be drunk, yet in fact is, would the onus be on the man to conduct a sobriety test if the woman consents to a sexual encounter?

One can see the problem with this law? :eek:

Wow. You and I actually agree about something.

I deleted them, but I still have to admit that someone has now broken my record. :(

Sigh. This was the first time I've ever used the option to mass-delete posts.

:(

Surely if a women cannot be held responsible for her actions while drunk then neither can a man?

That said there's a huge difference between picking up a girl at the bar when simply drunk and (literally) picking up a girl off the floor who can't move and bundling her in a taxi back to your place.

The danger is that a woman who decides she'd rather she hadn't said "yes" in retrospect can claim that she doesn't remember a thing and that it was "date rape".

IMO that law, while good in it's intention, would be far too open to abuse. The fact is that people go to bars often to meet members of the opposite sex and people almost ALWAYS go to bars to drink alchohol. It would basically declare open season on men seeing as its very very hard for a man to claim/prove he was raped.

To make it at all fair you'd have to start passing other laws saying that you're not allowed to leave a bar or club with a member of the opposite sex (sorry couples but you have to go out seperately) and "dating" bars that don't sell alchohol would have to be started, simply to keep safe from potential law suits.

Wow. You and I actually agree about something.
Well, surely there must be some commonsense in this world?

IMO that law, while good in it's intention, would be far too open to abuse. The fact is that people go to bars often to meet members of the opposite sex and people almost ALWAYS go to bars to drink alchohol. It would basically declare open season on men seeing as its very very hard for a man to claim/prove he was raped.

To make it at all fair you'd have to start passing other laws saying that you're not allowed to leave a bar or club with a member of the opposite sex (sorry couples but you have to go out seperately) and "dating" bars that don't sell alchohol would have to be started, simply to keep safe from potential law suits.

I think that is what Cold Winter Blues Men was trying to say.

IMO in the attempt to get justice for those girls who do get raped while drunk they're going down the route of putting the presumption of guilty until proven instead of innocent until proven guilty.

Yes I agree there are men out there who would have sex with a drunk woman. However, it is not a black and white issue on whether it constitutes rape, under the present UK laws..

There will be times when a woman has a little dutch courage to loosen herself up. She wants sex and will have sex, but needs the alcohol to loosen her inhibitions. She consumes "just enough" and is perfectly able to say NO if and/or when she wants to.

There will be times when a woman wants to have sex. She is lucid enough to initiate things, but then the the alcohol effects overtakes her. She intends to have sex and ends up doing so. She was capable of "performing" but would probably have little recollection of what happened "in the morning".

There will be times when a woman goes out to have a good time and consumes too much alcohol that is good for her. She does not intend to or want to have sex. She sees someone she fancies and decides to flirt. The man thinks she wants more, but as the alcohol effects take over, it goes further than she intended.

There will be times when a woman gets too drunk to know what she is doing. A man takes advantage of this and has sex with her. She didn't want sex. Did not know she was having sex, She was unable to show she was not giving consent.

There are many more scenarios than above. But my understanding of the proposed changes to the UK law is that all the above would be classed as rape.

Leave the law as it is. Juries are capable of determining the difference of consent where alcohol is concerned. And where they are not then they cannot convict.

There's a quote from someone somewhere about along the lines of "I'd rather guilty persons go free, than innocent ones being convicted".

A "statutory rape while drunk" law will only make it guity until proven innocent and it is just as hard if not harder to prove innocence than guilt.

In the UK there is a big hoo haa about not getting enough convictions for rape.

One of the reasons cited for not getting enough convictions is because - juries will not convict a man of raping a woman when she has been drinking too much alcohol and she cannot prove she did not give consent.

To counter this they want to change the law. In effect it is basically going to be illegal to have sex with a drunk woman (a bit like statutory rape) by saying a woman can never consent to having sex when drunk.

Anyone who has ever got completely blooto will know:

That there is always a point where you are drunk enough to do things you would not normally do and then regret them in the morning.

There is always a point where you do things and you have no recollection of doing them the next day (usually followed with your "mates" gleefully telling you of your "exploits" much to your embarrassment).

Is there anyone else out there who thinks this is a bit of ill thought out reasoning to change the law to one that basically makes it illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk?

I acknowledge that there are men out there who will rape a woman who is drunk. But how do you prove it? I venture it is next to impossible under the current legislation, but is the proposed change better, worse and/or just ill thought out?

What are your thoughts NS people? :confused:

It's a bit like saying that there aren't enough convictions for attempted murder, so lets change the law so that tailgating is considered attempted murder because you might have been just waiting to work up the nerve to step on the gas. Or passing on the right (on the inside). You're putting other drivers in danger, are you trying to kill them? Maybe.

If you drug a woman to get her consent, it could be rape. If you start having sex with an unconcious woman when never gave her consent, even if you didn't get her drunk, it's rape (unless she's given you some sort of standing permission.) If she's drunk enough to go to bed with you and feels like a whore in the morning, it's not rape. It's her making a stupid decision while she was drunk.

If a guy gets drunk and places a five-hundred dollar bet at the track, did the racetrack owners commit robbery? Fraud? Was he too drunk to legally place the bet?

We are not our brothers' keepers, and in this day and age we're not our sisters keepers either.

Well, surely there must be some commonsense in this world?

Not if I can help it. :mad:

Well, surely there must be some commonsense in this world?

America was founded on the principle that there is such a thing as good judgement, but never bet on authorities demonstrating it.

Yes we talk a lot about freedom and taxes and genocide, but it was mostly about not wanting to stake our lives on the judge/minister/king being baisicly a decent sort with a sound head on his shoulders.

Anywhere people are kept too ignorant to know how to build a still.

It worked great here too. People were drinking more. Entrepeneurs all over the country got rich producing bootleg hooch. Ever since deregulation kicked in it's all come under the umbrella of Anheiser Busch.

I don't drink wine because I'm unmanly. I drink wine because American beer is piss, and the "Imports" are just domestic products with foreign lisences.

If anyone touches you (and I mean, touch) and it is an "unwanted touching" and you made clear that you didn't want to be touched, that's assault.

Technically that's battery, not assault.

But...meh.

i'm not sure what to think on this. first time i had sex i knew nothing about it til i 'woke up' half way through. i barely even remember speaking to the guy, let alone pulling him. so in a sense i could say i did not give my consent, and honestly i probably would not have done if i was sobre. but the thought has never seriously crossed my mind to accuse him of rape. i felt used, but by no means violated. he was clearly of the impression that i was up for it and we had some communication after the 'event' so he obviously did not fear such an accusation.

what we do when we are drunk (even when we are paralytic) is what we would do when we are sobre if we didn't have any inhibitions. having said that, i think it is dangerous to say that any accusation of rape when the victim has been too drunk to remember should be dismissed because that is when we are most vulnerable to the predations of other people and in my old job i often saw guys taking almost comatose girls home at the end of the night and there's little we can do cuz they can just say that they're taking their girlfriend home to look after her when in fact they have other intentions.

Technically that's battery, not assault.

But...meh.

battery would require damage i think. i was charged with assault for pushing a bouncer. i didn't damage him cuz he was about a foot taller and wider than me and i think i went backwards rather than cause anything to happen to him.

What a load of pish.

Since when is sex something that is exclusively the man's perogative to initiate? To my understanding, the proposed change in this law seems to ignore this question - is it rape for a woman to sleep with a drunk man? Would it automatically be the man's fault if she were drunk too?

In my opinion, if two drunk people sleep with eachother, we must assume that neither are able to properly "consent". Neither should be punished in this instance.

Of course, there's a grey area when it comes to sober members of either sex preying on drunk people. Laws need to cover this whilst recognising the above fact.

It's a two sided coin, ugly women prey on Drunk men.

What a load of pish.

Since when is sex something that is exclusively the man's perogative to initiate? To my understanding, the proposed change in this law seems to ignore this question - is it rape for a woman to sleep with a drunk man? Would it automatically be the man's fault if she were drunk too?

In my opinion, if two drunk people sleep with eachother, we must assume that neither are able to properly "consent". Neither should be punished in this instance.

Of course, there's a grey area when it comes to sober members of either sex preying on drunk people. Laws need to cover this whilst recognising the above fact.


You bring up an interesting point: If they're both drunk, are they both rapists?