NationStates Jolt Archive

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

What? So we've decided to take off and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

This just in, it has been discovered there are men on the moon and there are reports of violence breaking out between those who welcome the earth men and those for a free and unocuppied moon. White House press secretary Snow assures us there is no moonish civil war.

And what violence there is
is down to some deadenders

Mmmmh... moon cake...

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

I can't wait to hear how you would have "won".

Look, if you want to defeat a people, and an insurgency (especially one that has multiple parties), you have to be willing to do a lot of things that the world would not accept in these modern times.

You would have to kill millions, and imprison millions, and decimate the country to an extent that hasn't been seen since the Dark Ages.

You wanted us to win? Then be willing to accept what must be done in order to achieve victory.

Otherwise, STFU, and we're going home...

Mmmmh... moon cake...

You mean cheesecake right? Isn't the moon made of cheese?

I can't wait to hear how you would have "won".

To tell you the truth, I wouldn't have invaded Iraq on a flimsy pretext of the possession of WMD's. Satisfactory answer?

To tell you the truth, I wouldn't have invaded Iraq on a flimsy pretext of the possession of WMD's. Satisfactory answer?

Nope. That's "hindsight is 20/20".

Tell me how you would have won.

I can't wait to hear how you would have "won".

Easy, I would have won by not going to war in the first place. Toughen sanctions on Saddam, extend the no-fly zones, support internal opposition groups, and, much more importantly, have a good, gradual plan for democratization in the country.

Nope. That's "hindsight is 20/20".

Tell me how you would have won.

Ah, "hindsight is 20/20" is the reason why I was out protesting the invasion before it took place, and why I have consistently been advocating my opposition to the whole farce over the past three and a half years here on NSG and elsewhere.

Weird kind of hindsight that works forwards...

Nope. That's "hindsight is 20/20".

Tell me how you would have won.

Lots and lots of people were against the war before it even started, precisely because we knew it would go like this.

Easy, I would have won by not going to war in the first place. Toughen sanctions on Saddam, extend the no-fly zones, support internal opposition groups, and, much more importantly, have a good, gradual plan for democratization in the country.

Sad. I don't believe for a second that would have worked.

No other countries were willing to "toughen sanctions". In fact, they were a farce, if the Oil for Food scandal is any indication. Even US companies were dealing with Saddam under the table.

The no-fly zones didn't do anything.

There isn't a "good, gradual plan for democratization". If there were, it would be possible, even now, to implement one. Face it, they don't want democracy, at least not as a single Iraqi state.

Add to that the Turks would never accept either aid to a Kurdish separatist group working to free itself, nor would they accept a Kurdish state.

Got any other bright ideas?

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

Brilliant connection there. :rolleyes:

There isn't a "good, gradual plan for democratization". If there were, it would be possible, even now, to implement one. Face it, they don't want democracy, at least not as a single Iraqi state.

Add to that the Turks would never accept either aid to a Kurdish separatist group working to free itself, nor would they accept a Kurdish state.

Got any other bright ideas?

Question: why did the US go to war in Iraq?

Oh dear....the Martians will be pissed about this....

quote:
Originally Posted by Eve Online View Post
Nope. That's "hindsight is 20/20".

Tell me how you would have won.

Lots and lots of people were against the war before it even started, precisely because we knew it would go like this.

Iztatepopotla is right
You were told and you were warned.

Remember how people kept annoyingly saying you weren't showing any credible
evidence for wmd but your administration kept pretending it had undeniable
evidence and they knew where they all were.

Remember how people laughed out loud when your administration said the
Iraqi people would be happy to see you.

Remember when your administration was told there was no evidence
of a terrorist link with Iraq but that if you invaded then you would
certainly then have terrorism in Iraq

Why is it that you think that was all "hindsight 20/20"

Sad. I don't believe for a second that would have worked.

No other countries were willing to "toughen sanctions". In fact, they were a farce, if the Oil for Food scandal is any indication. Even US companies were dealing with Saddam under the table.

The no-fly zones didn't do anything.

All that's a myth. No-fly zones and the oil for food program and the sanctions accomplished what they intended: Saddam was practically unarmed and not a danger to anyone outside Iraq.

Using diplomacy and the tremendous good-will that the US had gotten after 11/9 it would have been relatively easy to get other countries to increase sanctions. Political will would have to exist to eliminate corruption in the oil for food program, though.

There isn't a "good, gradual plan for democratization". If there were, it would be possible, even now, to implement one. Face it, they don't want democracy, at least not as a single Iraqi state.
That's fallacious. The situation now is not like the situation then, so it's not valid to compare. There could have been a plan gradual democratization, or at least political liberalization, in Iraq if there had been enough will to look for one.

Add to that the Turks would never accept either aid to a Kurdish separatist group working to free itself, nor would they accept a Kurdish state.
That would have had to be managed, but it could also be done.

Got any other bright ideas?
Ask Bush.

Question: why did the US go to war in Iraq?

Just to piss you off so you'd create a bunch of threads about it in NSG, obviousbly. DUH... :p

Question. Now that one party went to war with the voted assent of the other, now that the other party is in charge, after making the promise to fix the whole thing, what's the plan for fixing it?

Eh?

I'd like to see a plan, and then see everything work out as planned.

That will be the day that the sun shines out of my ass.

Sad. I don't believe for a second that would have worked.

No other countries were willing to "toughen sanctions". In fact, they were a farce, if the Oil for Food scandal is any indication. Even US companies were dealing with Saddam under the table.

The no-fly zones didn't do anything.

There isn't a "good, gradual plan for democratization". If there were, it would be possible, even now, to implement one. Face it, they don't want democracy, at least not as a single Iraqi state.

Add to that the Turks would never accept either aid to a Kurdish separatist group working to free itself, nor would they accept a Kurdish state.

Got any other bright ideas?

The purpose to toughening sanctions would have been????

Given that the ISG determined that Iraq had actually complied, that
the UN weapons inspectors had been sucessful and that by the time
they were withdrawn in 1998 there really were no WMD in Iraq
nor the capacity to create them.

Which means in 1998 when the weapons inspectors were withdrawn to
allow clinton to bomb baghdad, Iraq had met the criteria for
sanctions to be lifted.

On the Oil for Food thing
the word you need there was mostly
it was MOSTLY US companies who were dealing with Saddam under the table.
Certainly not only but definitely MOSTLY.

The no fly zones did what they were intended to do.
They allowed the US to regularly overfly Iraq and drop the odd bomb or two,
just in case the people there weren't miserable enough already.

The Kurds have always wanted an independent state which no one including
the US has ever wanted to give them and is never likely too either
at least not with an oil field and the kurds wont be happy if they don't get it.

The big bright idea was to not invade Iraq in defiance of the UN to gain control of Iraqi oil and install a government that would do what the US wanted.

The only choice now is for the invaders to withdraw
and it won't be good in Iraq when they do, but then it will be worse if they
stay and get worse again the longer they stay.

Question: why did the US go to war in Iraq?

...for the security of Israel???


OI! just kidding...we obviously went because war in Iraq is crucial to our national interest (see above comment)...

The purpose to toughening sanctions would have been????

Given that the ISG determined that Iraq had actually complied, that
the UN weapons inspectors had been sucessful and that by the time
they were withdrawn in 1998 there really were no WMD in Iraq
nor the capacity to create them.

Which means in 1998 when the weapons inspectors were withdrawn to
allow clinton to bomb baghdad, Iraq had met the criteria for
sanctions to be lifted.

On the Oil for Food thing
the word you need there was mostly
it was MOSTLY US companies who were dealing with Saddam under the table.
Certainly not only but definitely MOSTLY.

The no fly zones did what they were intended to do.
They allowed the US to regularly overfly Iraq and drop the odd bomb or two,
just in case the people there weren't miserable enough already.

The Kurds have always wanted an independent state which no one including
the US has ever wanted to give them and is never likely too either
at least not with an oil field and the kurds wont be happy if they don't get it.

The big bright idea was to not invade Iraq in defiance of the UN to gain control of Iraqi oil and install a government that would do what the US wanted.

The only choice now is for the invaders to withdraw
and it won't be good in Iraq when they do, but then it will be worse if they
stay and get worse again the longer they stay.

You're so wise. Promise the world that after we leave, all the fighting in Iraq will stop, and no one else will be killed.

You're so wise. Promise the world that after we leave, all the fighting in Iraq will stop, and no one else will be killed.

I believe I just stated it would be bad in Iraq when the invaders leave,
just less bad than if they stay.

Imagine how much less of a disaster zone Iraq would be today if even
after illegally invading it you had just left within a month.

I believe I just stated it would be bad in Iraq when the invaders leave,
just less bad than if they stay.

Imagine how much less of a disaster zone Iraq would be today if even
after illegally invading it you had just left within a month.

I guess you missed the part where during the period of sanctions, Saddam killed 300,000 people in two months as a little exercise - in some remote area south of Baghdad.

Could you have guaranteed he wouldn't do some more? It appeared to be a habit of his.

Is that better?

I guess you missed the part where during the period of sanctions, Saddam killed 300,000 people in two months as a little exercise - in some remote area south of Baghdad.

Could you have guaranteed he wouldn't do some more? It appeared to be a habit of his.

Is that better?

Do you mean he killed what could be up to 300,000 shia who the US
had encouraged to rise up against him and then did nothing at all to protect them.

I know you don't mean the 500,000 Iraqi children that it was estimated
died due to the implementation of the sanctions

When the subject was raised with her on 60 minutes and she was
asked if it was worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright response
was " I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."
--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

How many have died then since you invaded
Isn't that somewhere between 100 and 500 hundred thousand.

Its all quite a lot of deaths
and all should be on US conscience.

(don't get me wrong, any country that aided the us in any way have it on their consciences too
as well as every country who did not try hard enough to stop them)

How could anyone fail to see that the Iraq war would turn out like this?

How could anyone fail to see that the Iraq war would turn out like this?

oil dollar symbols in their eyes

-snip-
Using diplomacy and the tremendous good-will that the US had gotten after 11/9 it would have been relatively easy to get other countries to increase sanctions. Political will would have to exist to eliminate corruption in the oil for food program, though.

-snip-

I have no choice but to disagree with it being "relatively easy to get other countries to increase santions" France's government was against anything that involved the US in regards to Iraq including tightening of sanctions. Doesn't France have a VETO pen in the UN?

Also, I blame Saddam more than the US's faults considering how he manipulated us into thinking he had WMDs, by thumbing his nose at the UN and their decades of resolutions, by manipulating the UNSCOM, Saddam expelling certain Inspectors and so on.......... I always am able to put some blame on the UN for not having the courage and/or man power to enforce their very own resolutions declaring to have strict and harsh consequences for violations of the decades of resolutions.

Bottom Line: The USA is not the only one to be blamed for Iraq's failure. Overall, it's the World's fault for abandoning the Iraqi People in their times of need throughout their History.

Did you know that in the 90 years since Mesopotamian oil was discovered, Iraq has been at war with or under occupation by British or American forces for 45 of them?

If we'd have waited six months to a year for the UN to pull its thumb out of its ass you would have had an international force ready to give Saddam a major kicking, remove his regime and bring real democracy to the country.

As it is, we had to go empire building. Not about oil, my foot.

Question. Now that one party went to war with the voted assent of the other, now that the other party is in charge, after making the promise to fix the whole thing, what's the plan for fixing it?

Eh?

I'd like to see a plan, and then see everything work out as planned.

That will be the day that the sun shines out of my ass.
Excuse me, but the other guy asked his question first. You have no answer for it?

How could anyone fail to see that the Iraq war would turn out like this?
It took a lot of hard work and vigilant effort, but they managed. Some are still at it, even now.

I have no choice but to disagree with it being "relatively easy to get other countries to increase santions" France's government was against anything that involved the US in regards to Iraq including tightening of sanctions. Doesn't France have a VETO pen in the UN?

Also, I blame Saddam more than the US's faults considering how he manipulated us into thinking he had WMDs, by thumbing his nose at the UN and their decades of resolutions, by manipulating the UNSCOM, Saddam expelling certain Inspectors and so on.......... I always am able to put some blame on the UN for not having the courage and/or man power to enforce their very own resolutions declaring to have strict and harsh consequences for violations of the decades of resolutions.

Bottom Line: The USA is not the only one to be blamed for Iraq's failure. Overall, it's the World's fault for abandoning the Iraqi People in their times of need throughout their History.


You are right it would have been very hard if not impossible to get other countries to agree to increased sanctions.
The primary reason being the sanctions regime as it was already being operated was too harsh and affected the wrong people.
The secondary reason being that in fact the time had long past for the sanctions to be lifted.

Blaming Saddam for making you believe that he had WMD when the Weapons Inspectors were convinced that he did not and he said he did not.
Darned subtle of him, not terribly bright of you.

The UN is made up of its member nations, the US and UK were the ones enforcing the sanctions, you did well too, half a million kids dead, congrats.

The US is not the only one to blame it is however the primary one to blame.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait and the UN authorised action to drive them back
Saddam had only himself to blame. Weird no such vote was taken when he was invading Iran though.
Nonetheless in Kuwait he had illegally invaded another country and the UN and its member nations had a responsibility to act.
When the US invaded Iraq illegally the UN and its member nations also had
a responsibility to act.
Somehow I don't think you are actually saying the UN should have gathered forces to attack the US, of course they couldn't have, not from the security council, the principal aggressor and its ally both held vetoes.
You have a misunderstanding of what the UN is.
The UN is not there to do what the US wants, the US is a member of the UN,
it is not the other way around. When the UN does not do what the US wants, the UN is not failing in its responsibilities, when the US fails to abide by the charter it willingly signed up to, it is deliberately in breach of its own responsibilities, not to mention national and international law.

No one appreciates satire any more.

Question. Now that one party went to war with the voted assent of the other, now that the other party is in charge, after making the promise to fix the whole thing, what's the plan for fixing it?

Eh?

I'd like to see a plan, and then see everything work out as planned.

That will be the day that the sun shines out of my ass.

There ARE plans that democrats have laid out, and all of them were either struck down as "cut and run" or just ignored and then co-opted by the republicans.

From today's press conference.

Q Isn't it striking that this administration was accusing the likes of John Murtha and other Democrats who suggested course correction, including phased withdrawal, of cutting and running --

MR. SNOW: No, let me --

Q -- at the same time that the Defense Secretary was suggesting just the same option?

MR. SNOW: No.

Q You don't see hypocrisy there?

MR. SNOW: No, because you're talking about apples and oranges. If you take a look at -


From Murtha's Nov 20, '05 inerview on Meet The Press.

"Our military has done everything that has been asked of them. The U.S. cannot accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It's time to bring the troops home."

For Saying this he was accused of surrendering to terrorists. Now, just this past Sunday, Henry Kissenger says this.

"Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq," former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said in a television interview broadcast Sunday.

Murtha also laid out a plan for phased redeployment of US troops outside of Iraq. To places like Kuwiat and Saudi Arabia, in order to act as fast response forces to back up Iraqi forces, while leaving a small base of soldiers to act as trainers for a new Iraqi security force. For that he was shouted down and called a coward. So, what else would you have?

I still support the war 100%.

You have a misunderstanding of what the UN is.
The UN is not there to do what the US wants, the US is a member of the UN,
it is not the other way around. When the UN does not do what the US wants, the UN is not failing in its responsibilities, when the US fails to abide by the charter it willingly signed up to, it is deliberately in breach of its own responsibilities, not to mention national and international law.

To start out with I don't think we should have gone into Iraq at all. But all of this UN praising is making me sick.

I think you misunderstand the UN. See, somehow you find it useful, but I don't know why. Yes we are a member but I guarantee you that if we were not that organization would fail. So personally I suggest that the US leaves the UN so they can do there own little thing.

To start out with I don't think we should have gone into Iraq at all. But all of this UN praising is making me sick.

I think you misunderstand the UN. See, somehow you find it useful, but I don't know why. Yes we are a member but I guarantee you that if we were not that organization would fail. So personally I suggest that the US leaves the UN so they can do there own little thing.

That would be the worst idea in the history of anything. Having the UN simply dissolve would be preferrable to the US simply pulling out of it. The idea that the UN would fall apart if we were the only ones who left it is short sighted and dangerous.

To start out with I don't think we should have gone into Iraq at all. But all of this UN praising is making me sick.

I think you misunderstand the UN. See, somehow you find it useful, but I don't know why. Yes we are a member but I guarantee you that if we were not that organization would fail. So personally I suggest that the US leaves the UN so they can do there own little thing.

Oh no, the UN has been completely undermined now and is basically dead,
just its a big organisation and it will take a while for that to become obvious.

But as I said the UN is made up of its members, being undermined by the
most powerful nation in the world which was also one of its founders has destroyed whatever potential it had to be a force for international law
and order. But have no doubt in your mind, whatever criticisms you ever
had of the UN were criticisms of its members, particularly the most powerful
ones ( as in the permanent members of the security council) and of course
particularly the US.
Given that the US effectively founded the UN and signed up to the charter
being anti un was a decidedly anti american attitude.

Clearly not the biggest pullout ever. That would be Vietnam.

And no, the US is going to be stuck in Iraq for a while yet.

Not sure having a US base on the moon is a good thing. I'd rather see a international collaboration on this project...make it much harder for the US to militarise space.

Clearly not the biggest pullout ever. That would be Vietnam.

Withdrawing to the moon isn't the biggest pullout ever? Where did they pull out to from Vietnam - Mars?

Withdrawing to the moon isn't the biggest pullout ever? Where did they pull out to from Vietnam - Mars?

LOLOLOL!!!!!!

Quoted not only for humour but troooof an all innit!

Good thing there's a definate correlation between the two news articles and the title of the thread isn't misleading at all.

Base on the moon? I'll let NBC verify this in 22 minutes.

Oh dear....the Martians will be pissed about this....

http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/mars_spiritcolor.jpg

Yes, I know that the image is really old.

http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/mars_spiritcolor.jpg

Yes, I know that the image is really old.

Fuck em'. From that picture they don't have any weapons. Shit, they don't even seem to have any clothes. No balls either. We'll just relocate them to reservations or zoos or something.

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?


2500 casualties in four years is only an ass-kicking to Ass-o-crats who have no balls :p

Thank God Pelosi, Schumer, Dean and the white-flag Ass-o-crats weren't running the show in 1942 or we'd all be speaking Japanese and German today.

2500 casualties in four years is only an ass-kicking to Ass-o-crats who have no balls :p

Thank God Pelosi, Schumer, Dean and the white-flag Ass-o-crats weren't running the show in 1942 or we'd all be speaking Japanese and German today.
Do you know who was the President in 1942? :rolleyes:

...we'd all be speaking Japanese and German today.
Look, at least you'd be bilingual.

Realpolitik returns to the Middle East (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,452908,00.html)

2500 casualties in four years is only an ass-kicking to Ass-o-crats who have no balls :p

Thank God Pelosi, Schumer, Dean and the white-flag Ass-o-crats weren't running the show in 1942 or we'd all be speaking Japanese and German today.

deaths and casualties are different you do realise

2500 deaths

I suggest you look up your US casualties figures.

The ass kicking however is purely humour as the thread starter
was for fun linking 2 unrelated stories.

The only people who have had their asses, heads and everything else
kicked have been the people of Iraq and without question the biggest
ass kickers or as I prefer to put it
"murderous, torturing and self serving swine" have been the occupiers."

What? So we've decided to take off and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Why don't you just put her in charge?!
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/Aenimus/a_035BillPaxton.jpg

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

OMG I KNEW IT the the iraqi's are really little moon men and we're building a base on the moon so we can fight them there so we dont have to fight them there....

would you mind telling me how NASA's moon story has ANYTHING to do w/ iraq?

... I despair, I really do.

This -

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42389000/jpg/_42389740_moonbase203.jpg

This is supposed to be a Moonbase?

Pffffft. *points* It looks America's first Lunar Trailer Park, more like.

Now this -

http://bigeye.com.sapo.pt/space1999/moonbase.jpg

This is what a frickin' Moonbase is supposed to look like. Someone from NASA'd do well to get on the horn to Gerry Anderson, ASAP.

Now this -

http://bigeye.com.sapo.pt/space1999/moonbase.jpg

This is what a frickin' Moonbase is supposed to look like. Someone from NASA'd do well to get on the horn to Gerry Anderson, ASAP.

Space: '99?
Pfft.

Now this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/PlanetEndor2.jpg
is a moon base.

No, that's an artificial satellite.

http://bigeye.com.sapo.pt/space1999/moonbase.jpg

That is a Moonbase.

http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Moonbase.jpg

This is also a Moonbase.

'Cause it's a base. On the Moon.

No, that's an artificial satellite.

http://bigeye.com.sapo.pt/space1999/moonbase.jpg

That is a Moonbase.

http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Moonbase.jpg

This is also a moonbase.

'Cause it's a base. On the Moon.

Yeah, Endor Base happens to be on the Forest Moon of Endor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_moon_of_Endor#Endor.27s_Forest_Moon_and_the_Galactic_Civil_War
:D

snip

PS, notice the trees.

I don't remember any trees on the Death Star. Or an atmosphere, for that matter. Or a Death Star orbiting the Death Star.

2500 casualties in four years is only an ass-kicking to Ass-o-crats who have no balls :p

2,903 US deaths according to the US Department Of Defense. 3166 total Coalition deaths. 46,137 total Coalition casualties. Hey, no need to pay too much heed to the figures though, it ain't like it's a matter of life and death or anything. Oh wait.

There isn't a "good, gradual plan for democratization".True, however, there is such a thing as a bloodless revolution which ends in democracy. Just look at the "round table talks" which took place in Poland.

True, however, there is such a thing as a bloodless revolution which ends in democracy. Just look at the "round table talks" which took place in Poland.

Or possibly a better example would be the Velvet Revolution - not that the situation there can be mapped in any meaningful way to Iraq though.

Yeah, Endor Base happens to be on the Forest Moon of Endor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_moon_of_Endor#Endor.27s_Forest_Moon_and_the_Galactic_Civil_War
:D

Ah, George Lucas can kiss my ass. Endor sucked.

2,903 US deaths according to the US Department Of Defense. 3166 total Coalition deaths. 46,137 total Coalition casualties. Hey, no need to pay too much heed to the figures though, it ain't like it's a matter of life and death or anything. Oh wait.

I stand corrected. I intended "deaths" rather than total casualties, which include injured.

Otherwise, I stand by the rest of the statement.

I'd rather see a international collaboration on this project...make it much harder for the US to militarise space.

Too late. Even odds are, the US already has a bunch of orbital weapons in place. Same story with old Soviet installations, but their ready status is a big question mark.

The concept of the US flag in space makes me sick.

The concept of the US flag in space makes me sick.

I get travel sick, the concept of travelling into space turns my stomach.

Acceleration ... Urgh

Weightlessness .... Spew

Weightless Spew ... OPEN THE DOOR I HAVE TO GET OUT RIGHT NOW

I'll make my own way back

ReEntry - hot hot ....

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread yet, but i appreciate your light-hearted approach to such a painful and utterly predictable situation.

Thank God Pelosi, Schumer, Dean and the white-flag Ass-o-crats weren't running the show in 1942 or we'd all be speaking Japanese and German today.

Ignoring the fact that the U.S. was not the only nation fighting Germany and Japan in WWII...

I thought conservatives were always complaining about Democrats being led around by polls? That was a big argument against Kerry in '04 anyways.

What do you think polls looked like in December of '41?

Question: why did the US go to war in Iraq?
Because...
"He tried to kill my dad."

Bugger'm, Bugger'm. Millenium hand and shrimp.:rolleyes:

Do you know who was the President in 1942? :rolleyes:

I believe the proper term to be used in this situation is owned.

First this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6209356.stm

...then this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

Is this the start of the biggest US pull out ever?

uh, no... the biggest US pull out ever occurred after the tet offensive in vietnam and Nixon's Vietnamization plan.

sorry, but Iraq doesnt come close.