NationStates Jolt Archive

In my life, I have attended 4 or 5 churches, tops. All were located in southern Illinois, and all were your vanilla sing hymns-sermon-announcements-leave services.

I hadn't attended a church since Christmas of 03, but a friend of mine had asked me to go to his a few times, and I finally agreed to go last week.

So this past Sunday, I went to his church. It was a small church, my friend said that it typically has about 50 people in attendance. I was greeted by the pastor, and my first impression was not good, he seemed a little too slick, but that just might have been me being defensive. Interestingly enough, they also had a "rock" band of sort handling the hymns, and they sang those modern hymns that you see on the commercials for the evangelical music.

My suspicions about the pastor were made a little stronger when his encouragement of tithing was a little too enthusiastic and went on way too long. When he asked the congregation to hold their tithes up in the air, both the Christian values I was raised with and the modern liberal values I have developed were offended.

At this point, Pastor Jeff went into a sermon, and it started out just fine. He preached of an personal closeness to Jesus and his dislike for religion, which meshes with my opinion that spirituality should be entirely individual and subjective.

Just as I was beginning to think that this church actually did have some good points, the madness started. The pastor began speaking of some of the works of Jesus and about how God will heal you if you just go to him. This is innocent enough, all the churches I have attended have prayer lists, so the idea is pretty universal, I guess. However, he began speaking of the miracles that are going to happen in that very church and eventually called up anyone who needed to be healed.

I was completely amazed by what I saw (even though I don't think I witnessed any miracles or divine intervention). He was shouting "Be healed" and people were falling over (the old woman with back problems didn't, thankfully, she was still hunched over after her healing). The congregation that didn't approach the preacher (about a quarter of the congregation went up to be healed, so they should have an extremely healthy congregation in a month) were all lifting their hands to the front, some were crying. I couldn't do anything but gawk.

This is the first time I had seen anything like this in person, and whenever I have seen it, it took place in those big megachurches that broadcast. So is this sort of thing prevalent among christian churches? Have any of you witnessed this sort of thing.

I've seen it in quite a few small churches.

Sometimes, like you, I've seen what I believe to be hysterical bullshit.

However, I don't immediately trash the whole thing. I've seen two people cured of cancer - an almost overnight disappearance of a large tumor.

Now, I can't say for sure that it was the prayer that did it. But the doctors in both cases had pronounced the cases terminal and irreversible. They could offer no explanation, and treatment had stopped while the person was left to die in a hospice.

Tumors also aren't present as the result of hysterical reaction - nor are they removed by mere suggestion.

If my faith weren't healed continuously, it would have died long ago.

I have a good friend who is a Christian and has been miraculously healed not in the manner you described, but by being prayed for etc. Doctors have said on many occasions that they do not understand it, exactly how her problems have been solved. I dont want to go into them in detail as some of them are quite personal, but her medical history is indeed a miraculous one.

I've seen it in quite a few small churches.

Sometimes, like you, I've seen what I believe to be hysterical bullshit.

However, I don't immediately trash the whole thing. I've seen two people cured of cancer - an almost overnight disappearance of a large tumor.

Now, I can't say for sure that it was the prayer that did it. But the doctors in both cases had pronounced the cases terminal and irreversible. They could offer no explanation, and treatment had stopped while the person was left to die in a hospice.

Tumors also aren't present as the result of hysterical reaction - nor are they removed by mere suggestion.

Are you suggesting, like this Pastor, that modern medicine (which includes a vast number of christians) simply ignore these healings?

Hate to tell ya'll this, but if you could be healed by flopping around like a bass in a boat we would of never bothered with things like doctors or biology...

Are you suggesting, like this Pastor, that modern medicine (which includes a vast number of christians) simply ignore these healings?

No, I'm not suggesting that the healings be ignored (I actually believe in the power of prayer).

But if it's done as part of a magic show for a large audience, then I have my doubts.

Hate to tell ya'll this, but if you could be healed by flopping around like a bass in a boat we would of never bothered with things like doctors or biology...

They arnt mutually exclusive, and its foolish to think they are.

Are you suggesting, like this Pastor, that modern medicine (which includes a vast number of christians) simply ignore these healings?

It's not ignored, it's well studied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_Effect

No, I'm not suggesting that the healings be ignored (I actually believe in the power of prayer).


That isn't what I mean.

It seems like a lot of people have witnessed something they consider to be a prayer-powered healing, yet the medical profession makes no note of the medical power of prayer (outside some psychological benefit, I suppose). Do you think that the medical profession is simply ignoring it?

It's not ignored, it's well studied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_Effect

I don't believe for a second that "placebo" explains the disappearance of a tumor the size of a tennis ball, thoroughly infiltrated into a woman's brain that had paralyzed her, rendered her blind, deaf, and unable to speak, and then was gone the next morning.

She was unconscious when prayed over. It's why I have my belief that in some cases, prayer is actually the working agent.

Can't say it's every prayer, or everyone who prays, or all prayers are answered. But placebo doesn't even come close to explaining what I've seen.

That isn't what I mean.

It seems like a lot of people have witnessed something they consider to be a prayer-powered healing, yet the medical profession makes no note of the medical power of prayer (outside some psychological benefit, I suppose). Do you think that the medical profession is simply ignoring it?

As an "operation" which is difficult to reproduce under controlled conditions, faith healing is of little use to the medical profession. I doubt many doctors object to anyone praying for their patients, however.

It's not ignored, it's well studied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_Effect

Has the placebo effect ever cured cancer as Eve is suggesting, or grown back limbs as the pastor suggested?

As an "operation" which is difficult to reproduce under controlled conditions, faith healing is of little use to the medical profession.

It seems pretty replicable. Besides, controlled conditions are not necessary for study.

I doubt many doctors object to anyone praying for their patients, however.

Why would they?

Whether they think it will actually heal the patient is another story.

It seems pretty replicable. Besides, controlled conditions are not necessary for study.


Controlled conditions are necessary for a study.

Otherwise, everything boils down to "I won't believe it until I see it personally."

That isn't what I mean.

It seems like a lot of people have witnessed something they consider to be a prayer-powered healing, yet the medical profession makes no note of the medical power of prayer (outside some psychological benefit, I suppose). Do you think that the medical profession is simply ignoring it?

What pray tell are they supposed to study about it? We know that suggestion is a powerful motivator when it comes to health. That's all faith healing is, suggestion.

I don't believe for a second that "placebo" explains the disappearance of a tumor the size of a tennis ball, thoroughly infiltrated into a woman's brain that had paralyzed her, rendered her blind, deaf, and unable to speak, and then was gone the next morning.

She was unconscious when prayed over. It's why I have my belief that in some cases, prayer is actually the working agent.

Can't say it's every prayer, or everyone who prays, or all prayers are answered. But placebo doesn't even come close to explaining what I've seen.

Did you witness this via e-mail?

Did you witness this via e-mail?

No, I was standing there praying with other people.

Controlled conditions are necessary for a study.

Otherwise, everything boils down to "I won't believe it until I see it personally."

There is nothing barring doctors from studying those who have been healed by prayer and identifying the cause or lack there of. It does not need to be replicated in a laboratory or hospital to be studied.

What pray tell are they supposed to study about it? We know that suggestion is a powerful motivator when it comes to health. That's all faith healing is, suggestion.

I understand this, but those who believe in this dismiss that it is simply suggestion, and I am asking if they think that it is being "swept under the rug" by the medical profession.

There is nothing barring doctors from studying those who have been healed by prayer and identifying the cause or lack there of. It does not need to be replicated in a laboratory or hospital to be studied.

I think you need to revisit the concept of scientific rigor.

There is nothing barring doctors from studying those who have been healed by prayer and identifying the cause or lack there of. It does not need to be replicated in a laboratory or hospital to be studied.

Yes it does, or the study is invalid.

You have to run tests before the "healing", to determine the exact problem, and extent of it.
Then you have them "healed".
Run more tests to monitor for changes.

If it cannot be replicated it cannot be studied. It's that simple. It's like those folks who claimed to of invented Cold Fusion and never replicated it. Sure it's a nice fantasy, but until they can prove it, it's just that.

At this point, Pastor Jeff went into a sermon, and it started out just fine. He preached of an personal closeness to Jesus and his dislike for religion, which meshes with my opinion that spirituality should be entirely individual and subjective.


Am I the only one who finds the bolded ironic? I mean here we have a Christian man talking about the evils and dislike for religion, and yet he's a pastor.

I have seen people healed through prayer, but it wasn't done in a single church service where they fell over, in fact I tend to shy away from those types of churches.

I have seen people healed through prayer, but it wasn't done in a single church service where they fell over, in fact I tend to shy away from those types of churches.

Interestingly so do Insurance Companies.

Law suit! I fell over in your church, and your preacher touched me in an inappropriate manner!

Interestingly so do Insurance Companies.

Law suit! I fell over in your church, and your preacher touched me in an inappropriate manner!

yep. Most of the people I have seen healed through prayer had a pretty long wait, and a lot of faithful people praying for them daily.

I'm so glad you guys are able to get your faith healed, I can't imagine that ever happening.

I don't believe for a second that "placebo" explains the disappearance of a tumor the size of a tennis ball, thoroughly infiltrated into a woman's brain that had paralyzed her, rendered her blind, deaf, and unable to speak, and then was gone the next morning.

She was unconscious when prayed over. It's why I have my belief that in some cases, prayer is actually the working agent.

Can't say it's every prayer, or everyone who prays, or all prayers are answered. But placebo doesn't even come close to explaining what I've seen.

Faith can move mountains.

As an Athiest, I have a strong recognition of the power of faith. Through faith, people have been cured of cancer (numerous examples), healed congenital conditions usually regarded as untreatable, and found strength to do great deeds.

What most people miss, however, is that faith doesn't necessarily have anything to do with reality. Faith itself - the power of belief - is the important part, not what the faith is in.

Am I the only one who finds the bolded ironic? I mean here we have a Christian man talking about the evils and dislike for religion, and yet he's a pastor.

I don't, but I guess it depends on what you mean by "religion", I don't find myself to be very "religious", but I probably define "religion" different than you would.

I think the majority of seriously ill people are going to see or be seen by a religous figure who is going to try and heal them and a few of those people are going to make a good recovery

What pray tell are they supposed to study about it? We know that suggestion is a powerful motivator when it comes to health. That's all faith healing is, suggestion.

And if suggestion works, what then? Just because it's suggestion is meaningless if there are real, quantifiable health benefits.

A friend of a friend went to one of those "health, wealth, and prosperity gospel" conferences and was healed of her diabetes. Except, it turns out, two years later, she still has diabetes. Her answer? She was healed spiritually, but her body hasn't caught up. It couldn't be that she was caught up in emotion and that the person babbling wasn't really speaking in tongues.

These people are so convinced that God can do only what is pleasent (which simply isn't Scriptural) that they invent these elaborate ideas about what God should do, rather than what God says He does.

On the other hand, I know people who have been healed. A certain member of the Pennsylvania General Assembly had a brain tumor as a child and people prayed over him. When he went in for sugery, the tumor wasn't there. Heart problems have been healed (my own). So, there are healings, but very few are in the format of your typical "slain in the Spirit" healings.

And if suggestion works, what then? Just because it's suggestion is meaningless if there are real, quantifiable health benefits.

Huh?

What pray tell are they supposed to study about it? We know that suggestion is a powerful motivator when it comes to health. That's all faith healing is, suggestion.

I havn't actually seen any proof that large tumours can vanish through suggestion alone.

Huh?

I said, if it is "suggestion", but there are actual health benefits, then it merits investigating more closely.

These people are so convinced that God can do only what is pleasent (which simply isn't Scriptural) that they invent these elaborate ideas about what God should do, rather than what God says He does.

There was another point that stood out about the service. The pastor and the congregation stated explicitly that God had a responsibility to take care of those who go to him for help. That thought struck me as counter to what I have known of Christianity.

On the other hand, I know people who have been healed. A certain member of the Pennsylvania General Assembly had a brain tumor as a child and people prayed over him. When he went in for sugery, the tumor wasn't there. Heart problems have been healed (my own). So, there are healings, but very few are in the format of your typical "slain in the Spirit" healings.

It seems like brain tumors are disappearing all over the country.

Yes it does, or the study is invalid.

You have to run tests before the "healing", to determine the exact problem, and extent of it.
Then you have them "healed".
Run more tests to monitor for changes.

If it cannot be replicated it cannot be studied. It's that simple. It's like those folks who claimed to of invented Cold Fusion and never replicated it. Sure it's a nice fantasy, but until they can prove it, it's just that.

First off, I would imagine that in most of these "healings", the subject had seen a doctor and had his status studied and documented both prior to and after the healing.

Second off, many, many other medical studies have been conducted around naturally occurring illnesses without any laboratory inducement. It is perfectly possible, (it is perfectly necessary) for physicians to study medical phenomenon without controlled factors. Simply because a doctor cannot replicate the phenomenon himself, he is not precluded from studying it.

such faith healing has happened before and will happen in the future, the problem is that when the healer becomes "Full" of themselves, then the Lord removes the blessing.

in other words, when the congregation starts worshiping the healer and not the source of the healing power... bye bye.

First off, I would imagine that in most of these "healings", the subject had seen a doctor and had his status studied and documented both prior to and after the healing.

Second off, many, many other medical studies have been conducted around naturally occurring illnesses without any laboratory inducement. It is perfectly possible, (it is perfectly necessary) for physicians to study medical phenomenon without controlled factors. Simply because a doctor cannot replicate the phenomenon himself, he is not precluded from studying it.

Such as? Name me one illness cured without laboratory study.

There was another point that stood out about the service. The pastor and the congregation stated explicitly that God had a responsibility to take care of those who go to him for help. That thought struck me as counter to what I have known of Christianity.



It seems like brain tumors are disappearing all over the country.
People are just pannic buying for the christmas season.

Such as? Name me one illness cured without laboratory study.

Why should I?

I understand this, but those who believe in this dismiss that it is simply suggestion, and I am asking if they think that it is being "swept under the rug" by the medical profession.

Science never "sweeps anything under the rug" it "comes up with a more logical explanation".

Get your terminology right ;)

There was another point that stood out about the service. The pastor and the congregation stated explicitly that God had a responsibility to take care of those who go to him for help. That thought struck me as counter to what I have known of Christianity.

Scripturally, God is not required to do anything to you, except punish you for sin. Which goes completly opposite what they think (unless of course, they're talking about their enemies: nonhyperliteral-nonArminian-nonCharismatic/Pentacostal-nonhyperEvangelical-etc.-people).

Scripturally, God is not required to do anything to you, except punish you for sin. Which goes completly opposite what they think (unless of course, they're talking about their enemies: nonhyperliteral-nonArminian-nonCharismatic/Pentacostal-nonhyperEvangelical-etc.-people).

Is it stated that God is required to punish you for sin, or that he merely chooses to?

Is it stated that God is required to punish you for sin, or that he merely chooses to?

Habakkuk 1:13 "You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look on wrong...." The point is not that He is blind to it, but that He cannot tolerate is.

Genesis 18:25 "....Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"
God is Judge - He created it, He's in charge of it. And as a perfect Judge, He must be perfectly just.

Every sin earns death (spiritual and as a result physical, emotional, mental, etc. see Romans 3:23;6:23) and He must give it to us. Unless He chooses to be merciful. But how can He be merciful? There must be someone to pay for my sins and yours and everyone elses. We must do it, or someone else must. Jesus was perfect and able to die for the sins of others. That enables God to be merciful. But He must still punish sin (whether it is you who are punished or He who was sacrificed for your sins is your choice.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing#Criticism

Faith healing has not scientifically been proven effective. What few controlled studies have been performed have evidenced no beneficial effect. Its practitioners can only cite anecdotal evidence of cases where it has been successful, ignoring the far more numerous cases where the patient dies despite the efforts of faith healing. Doctors often ascribe any success to the placebo effect or to spontaneous remission: some people will heal with or without treatment, and it is generally natural to credit the most recent treatment for the cure (this logical fallacy is called post hoc ergo propter hoc).

Prominent 1980's-era faith healer and televangelist Peter Popoff was publicly exposed by noted skeptic James Randi working together with popular TV host Johnny Carson, when it was discovered that the apparent healing miracles and prophetic acts performed by Popoff were in fact part of an elaborately stage-managed setup including planting of audience members and broadcasts to an in-ear radio receiver. Other faith healers such as Benny Hinn (who was videotaped by hidden cameras and profiled on an episode CBC's The Fifth Estate]] have also been hit by allegations of fraudulent activity.

I have my doubts about this so-called faith healing. It's unscientific to say that because the preacher said "HEAL!" and the person healed sometime in the future that it was the faith healing that saved them. That's just plain stupid.

Habakkuk 1:13 "You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look on wrong...." The point is not that He is blind to it, but that He cannot tolerate is.

Genesis 18:25 "....Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"
God is Judge - He created it, He's in charge of it. And as a perfect Judge, He must be perfectly just.

Every sin earns death (spiritual and as a result physical, emotional, mental, etc. see Romans 3:23;6:23) and He must give it to us. Unless He chooses to be merciful. But how can He be merciful? There must be someone to pay for my sins and yours and everyone elses. We must do it, or someone else must. Jesus was perfect and able to die for the sins of others. That enables God to be merciful. But He must still punish sin (whether it is you who are punished or He who was sacrificed for your sins is your choice.)

I prefer Gandalf, or Dumbledore.
They can perform wondrous acts but they don't judge everything you do.
Which I think is best.

I prefer Gandalf, or Dumbledore.
They can perform wondrous acts but they don't judge everything you do.
Which I think is best.

If you look at the whole of Tolkien's mythology, Gandalf was a servant of Eru, whose Day of Judgement was fast approaching.

If you look at the whole of Tolkien's mythology, Gandalf was a servant of Eru, whose Day of Judgement was fast approaching.

Yes but all 4 characters mentioned are fictional
and my favourite fictional characters do not include Eru.
Even if one of my favourite fictional characters is a servant of another fictional
character.

Yes but all 4 characters mentioned are fictional
and my favourite fictional characters do not include Eru.
Even if one of my favourite fictional characters is a servant of another fictional
character.

Well, just standing up for Tolkien's stance in favor of traditional Christianity.

I've seen it in quite a few small churches.

Sometimes, like you, I've seen what I believe to be hysterical bullshit.

However, I don't immediately trash the whole thing. I've seen two people cured of cancer - an almost overnight disappearance of a large tumor.

Now, I can't say for sure that it was the prayer that did it. But the doctors in both cases had pronounced the cases terminal and irreversible. They could offer no explanation, and treatment had stopped while the person was left to die in a hospice.

Tumors also aren't present as the result of hysterical reaction - nor are they removed by mere suggestion.

This could be explained by a virus (probably herpes) targeting the cancers and killing them.

Why should I?

It's called burden of proof sparky. You made an impossible claim, and I'd like to see evidence, otherwise you're just talking out of your ass to make your argument seem valid.

Would any of those of you who believe in faith healing like to buy Manhattan from me as I own the land rights, honest this isn't a con.

Wasn't there a scientific study a while back on the effects of prayer on healing? I think the study found that those that were prayed for did slightly worse than the control group.

EDIT: Found a link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

In my life, I have attended 4 or 5 churches, tops. All were located in southern Illinois, and all were your vanilla sing hymns-sermon-announcements-leave services.

I hadn't attended a church since Christmas of 03, but a friend of mine had asked me to go to his a few times, and I finally agreed to go last week.

So this past Sunday, I went to his church. It was a small church, my friend said that it typically has about 50 people in attendance. I was greeted by the pastor, and my first impression was not good, he seemed a little too slick, but that just might have been me being defensive. Interestingly enough, they also had a "rock" band of sort handling the hymns, and they sang those modern hymns that you see on the commercials for the evangelical music.

My suspicions about the pastor were made a little stronger when his encouragement of tithing was a little too enthusiastic and went on way too long. When he asked the congregation to hold their tithes up in the air, both the Christian values I was raised with and the modern liberal values I have developed were offended.

At this point, Pastor Jeff went into a sermon, and it started out just fine. He preached of an personal closeness to Jesus and his dislike for religion, which meshes with my opinion that spirituality should be entirely individual and subjective.

Just as I was beginning to think that this church actually did have some good points, the madness started. The pastor began speaking of some of the works of Jesus and about how God will heal you if you just go to him. This is innocent enough, all the churches I have attended have prayer lists, so the idea is pretty universal, I guess. However, he began speaking of the miracles that are going to happen in that very church and eventually called up anyone who needed to be healed.

I was completely amazed by what I saw (even though I don't think I witnessed any miracles or divine intervention). He was shouting "Be healed" and people were falling over (the old woman with back problems didn't, thankfully, she was still hunched over after her healing). The congregation that didn't approach the preacher (about a quarter of the congregation went up to be healed, so they should have an extremely healthy congregation in a month) were all lifting their hands to the front, some were crying. I couldn't do anything but gawk.

This is the first time I had seen anything like this in person, and whenever I have seen it, it took place in those big megachurches that broadcast. So is this sort of thing prevalent among christian churches? Have any of you witnessed this sort of thing.

haha masshypnosis or hysteria is so funny, ah, the brainwashed people.

Would any of those of you who believe in faith healing like to buy Manhattan from me as I own the land rights, honest this isn't a con.


Really I'll give you a pound for it, yep that's right y'all £1, which as we know is worth alomst $2 to you. So whatd'ya say ummmm?

Really I'll give you a pound for it, yep that's right y'all £1, which as we know is worth alomst $2 to you. So whatd'ya say ummmm?

Done. Just let me have details of your bank account and I will send you the deeds.

If faith is such a great healer - why has there been a need for medicine and science?

Instead of people waiting to see consultants and going through Chemo/radiotherapy and operations, why don't GP's refer them to the local church?

If faith is such a great healer - why has there been a need for medicine and science?

Instead of people waiting to see consultants and going through Chemo/radiotherapy and operations, why don't GP's refer them to the local church?

because God can use the doctors and stuff to help you.

also, yeah there are Christian sects that don't go to the doctor at all.

When dealing with churches, I'll stick with the nice, boring vanilla type that I was raised in

It's called a Placebo-effect. It's in fact very well scientifically documented. Doesn't matter what you have faith in, religion or little sugar pills, as long as you believe that it'll help, it'll help.

This could be explained by a virus (probably herpes) targeting the cancers and killing them.

Good to know you know more about the cases than the doctors who examined them and couldn't explain them. Why don't you give them a call and fill them in? I'm sure they'd love to hear your informed opinion.

There ar eplenty of Christians who have seen honest to goodness miracles in the realm of healing, and I bet not one of those healings took place in front of an audience where the "healed" person fell over afterward.

I actually read a study where a popular televangelists's audience had a documentary crew sneak in and observe carefully what was going on. That, and someone on the indise provided a little info.

It seems that before the service, employees of the "church" would pass o ut little cards whereyou'd fill in your name and what you hoped could be healed for you. These cards would be taken to the control booth where the sounds, lights etc were controlled from.

The "pastor" would have a wireless hearpiece through which people in the booth would feed him info taken from the cards so that he'd appear to be receiving revelations about the congregationalists.

As people would come up to get healed, he'd do the smack them on the forehead thing, and every single one would fall backward. Why? Because they'd seen the person in front of them do it, so they'd do it too. Herd mentality.

So no. I don't buy the healing shows.

Having said that, I have personally observed cases of true healing as a result of prayer and blessings. It's beautiful, it's uplifting and I feel honored to have been able to see it.

Some folks like to dismiss every such story out of hand with their favorite buzzword: placebo. Well friends, placebos don't replace disintegrated cartilage. It's funny how a lot of people who deride the idea of healing by faith like to suggest that if faith healing were true, we'd not need any doctors.

Well I submit that if the power of a placebo were so potent that a person who believes God is repairing his spinal column can suddenly get up and play volleyball, then we wouldn't need any doctors then, either.

Funny, ain't it? How often Christians are accused of being narrowminded or closed-minded. Watch how fast non-believers rush to their buzzwords when you tell them an honest and sincere story about faith healing. They won't consider your words for a second.

Some folks like to dismiss every such story out of hand with their favorite buzzword: placebo. Well friends, placebos don't replace disintegrated cartilage. It's funny how a lot of people who deride the idea of healing by faith like to suggest that if faith healing were true, we'd not need any doctors.

Well I submit that if the power of a placebo were so potent that a person who believes God is repairing his spinal column can suddenly get up and play volleyball, then we wouldn't need any doctors then, either.

Funny, ain't it? How often Christians are accused of being narrowminded or closed-minded. Watch how fast non-believers rush to their buzzwords when you tell them an honest and sincere story about faith healing. They won't consider your words for a second.

I never doubted that faith healings work, my mother's a nurse and can report a couple of cases actually.
What I did say is that it doesn't matter WHAT you have faith in, as long as you have enough faith in it. If you manage to convince a person of the absolute infalibility of the drug you are going to administer, that drug will work, even if it's just apple juice. They'll even report a bitter taste to it.
And here's also why it doesn't work with everybody : there aren't many people around who have the mental or spiritual capacity to muster up such an amount of faith. Most people tend to be a bit more on the cynical or at least sceptical side, and doubt will inescapably prevent that form of "miracle" healing.

I don't dismiss the phenomenon, but I do dismiss the supernatural explanation. This kind of healing occurs in all culturs, cults and religions. If it was a purely Christian thing, only Christians would be healed.

I guess, I could cure people who would want to believe in it with inikresaist (one of my IC-religions) magic maybe even with spreadsheetist summoning of the "Player". The reason is simple: The Placebo-effect!

I never doubted that faith healings work, my mother's a nurse and can report a couple of cases actually.
What I did say is that it doesn't matter WHAT you have faith in, as long as you have enough faith in it. If you manage to convince a person of the absolute infalibility of the drug you are going to administer, that drug will work, even if it's just apple juice. They'll even report a bitter taste to it.
And here's also why it doesn't work with everybody : there aren't many people around who have the mental or spiritual capacity to muster up such an amount of faith. Most people tend to be a bit more on the cynical or at least sceptical side, and doubt will inescapably prevent that form of "miracle" healing.

I don't dismiss the phenomenon, but I do dismiss the supernatural explanation. This kind of healing occurs in all culturs, cults and religions. If it was a purely Christian thing, only Christians would be healed.

in short:Placebo

in short:Placebo

Yup. Christian placebo, Islamic placebo, Hindu placebo, Homeopathy, little sugar pill... it's the same mental process.

Yup. Christian placebo, Islamic placebo, Hindu placebo, Homeopathy, little sugar pill... it's the same mental process.

So you wouldn't be open to considering any other possibility?

So you wouldn't be open to considering any other possibility?

Such as?

So you wouldn't be open to considering any other possibility?

If it could be proven as a valid method of real treatment, absolutely. Since it apparently can't, no.


Incidentally Firefox's spell checker gizmo kinda sucks. Lots of words not in their dictionary.

Such as?

An external source for the healing.

No thanks, I'll just use the NHS.

I read a while back that prayer can actually reduce your chances when people are aware that they are being prayed for...

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19025463.200-prayers-found-ineffective-in-speeding-recovery.html

If it could be proven as a valid method of real treatment, absolutely. Since it apparently can't, no.


So you wouldn't even consider it as a possibility, knowing that the individual person's level of faith cannot be measured and thus no controlled environment can exist?

So you wouldn't even consider it as a possibility, knowing that the individual person's level of faith cannot be measured and thus no controlled environment can exist?

A possibility? Perhaps. A reasonable treatment course, not a chance in hell. It doesn't work effectively, it doesn't work reliably, and there's no way of knowing if it will or won't work.

Relying on faith to heal you is like that idjit who relied on faith to walk on water and drowned. Or the snake handlers who rely on faith to protect them from venom then die.