NationStates Jolt Archive

This weekend I ended up at a party in an arguement with strictly republicans and ultra conservative christans..Everyone was in a dispute about the war in iraq, a typical debate. One kid kept saying that we need to give freedom to the women in Iraq. Although that is a focus, it never was a main one until the weapons of mass destruction didn't exsist. Anyhow, I am learning in sociology that these women as a whole might not want to be free, as it is the only lifestyle they know. Also this can be related to what we did to the American Indians when we took their culture away and said they would be better suited to live if they were living like us.

Point of the matter, I personally think it is extremely selfish to expect another country to assimilate more like our own. I think many of these people are looking at other cultures in terms of their own cultures beliefs.

The orginal argument is rather suspect as Iraqi women were some of the most free in the middle east, until we invaded. Now many women are covering up or leaving scholls due to fear of being killed by religious fanatics.

The orginal argument is rather suspect as Iraqi women were some of the most free in the middle east, until we invaded. Now many women are covering up or leaving scholls due to fear of being killed by religious fanatics.

They were free?

They were free?Iraqi women had quite a lot of freedom compared with women in most of the middle east. Better educated, wore western clothes, drove, worked in professional fields. Saddam kept the fundamentalist radicals out. We let them in.

Iraqi women had quite a lot of freedom compared with women in most of the middle east. Better educated, wore western clothes, drove, worked in professional fields. Saddam kept the fundamentalist radicals out. We let them in.

Minus the rape rooms, of course? :rolleyes:

Minus the rape rooms, of course? :rolleyes:Saddam was an evil tyrant. But for the majority of Iraqis, life was better then than it is now.

Saddam was an evil tyrant. But for the majority of Iraqis, life was better then than it is now.

Except, of course, for the current decrease in the number of active rape rooms, of course? :rolleyes:

Except, of course, for the current decrease in the number of active rape rooms, of course? :rolleyes:

Replaced by outdoor rapings...

Replaced by outdoor rapings...

Yeah, but there are no active rape rooms. See? Our leader knows what he is doing. ;)

Replaced by outdoor rapings...Thankyou, dear.

Except, of course, for the current decrease in the number of active rape rooms, of course? :rolleyes:
Have you been raped?
Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Have you been raped?
Don't knock it until you've tried it.

In all seriousness, though. Do y'all have statistics on the actual number of institutionalized rapings now as compared to then? I think that the accounts of troops raping Iraqis are probably exaggerated.

Have you been raped?
Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Please tell me you're kidding....

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

This Sunni woman used to be a computer programmer for a Baghdad company. She's not anymore...she can't actually leave her house without the full hijab (which she didn't wear before) and male company.

Have you been raped?
Don't knock it until you've tried it.
Yes, you idiot.

Please tell me you're kidding....

is your sarcasm detector in the shop or something?

Yes, you idiot.

I so knew that would come.

is your sarcasm detector in the shop or something?

Well it's not that funny, actually it was pretty terrible.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

This Sunni woman used to be a computer programmer for a Baghdad company. She's not anymore...she can't actually leave her house without the full hijab (which she didn't wear before) and male company.

That's one woman.

I so knew that would come.Since one in four American women have been sexually assaulted, it certainly was inevitable.

Since one in four American women have been sexually assaulted, it certainly was inevitable.

That, and this being the Intarwebs and having all sorts of people. Sometimes even women! And not just men pretending to be women.

That's one woman.Not an uncommon story. The fundamentalists have made great strides since Saddam fell.

Not an uncommon story. The fundamentalists have made great strides since Saddam fell.

Do you have statistics? Not accounts of individual women. I want statistics.

Well it's not that funny, actually it was pretty terrible.

no it was not
add in that some rapes end up with the victim geting killed ,its not funny

Not an uncommon story. The fundamentalists have made great strides since Saddam fell.

I think it's hilarious how they overthrew a tyrant so they could get a Muslim theocracy in place instead. Sucks for the people, but I can't help having a tinge of schadenfreude and "we told you so"-ism come over me...

no it was not
add in that some rapes end up with the victim geting killed ,its not funny

Then the problem is murder in that case then, now isn't it?

no it was not
add in that some rapes end up with the victim geting killed ,its not funny

Yea, I know women who've been raped, and the aftermath is nothing to laugh at or make light of.

There is just some things you don't joke about, period, and rape is one of those things.

That's one woman.
But she sits right at the source, unlike us.

Saddam was a secular dictator. Because religious leaders questioned his rule, any overt signs of religion were suppressed.

Part of the Ba'ath philosophy is secularism. Every citizen of the Arab country in question gets various rights, and one of those right is the freedom to act as they want without having to be yelled at by religious maniacs.

All the bigots, sexists and other dickheads had to keep quiet because yelling abuse at a woman in the street would get you in trouble. Now that Saddam is gone, those guys do yell abuse (and worse) if a woman doesn't cover up.

The story of how I lost my job isn’t unique. It has actually become very common- despondently, depressingly, unbearably common. It goes like this…

I’m a computer science graduate. Before the war, I was working in an Iraqi database/software company located in Baghdad as a programmer/network administrator (yes, yes… a geek). Every day, I would climb three flights of stairs, enter the little office I shared with one female colleague and two males, start up my PC and spend hours staring at little numbers and letters rolling across the screen. It was tedious, it was back-breaking, it was geeky and it was… wonderful.

When I needed a break, I’d go visit my favorite sites on the internet, bother my colleagues or rant about ‘impossible bosses’ and ‘improbable deadlines’.

I loved my job- I was *good* at my job. I came and went to work on my own. At 8 am I’d walk in lugging a backpack filled with enough CDs, floppies, notebooks, chewed-on pens, paperclips and screwdrivers to make Bill Gates proud. I made as much money as my two male colleagues and got an equal amount of respect from the manager (that was because he was clueless when it came to any type of programming and anyone who could do it was worthy of respect… a girl, no less- you get the picture).

What I’m trying to say is that no matter *what* anyone heard, females in Iraq were a lot better off than females in other parts of the Arab world (and some parts of the Western world- we had equal salaries!). We made up over 50% of the working force. We were doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers, professors, deans, architects, programmers, and more. We came and went as we pleased. We wore what we wanted (within the boundaries of the social restrictions of a conservative society).

During the first week of June, I heard my company was back in business. It took several hours, seemingly thousands of family meetings, but I finally convinced everyone that it was necessary for my sanity to go back to work. They agreed that I would visit the company (with my two male bodyguards) and ask them if they had any work I could possibly take home and submit later on, or through the internet.

One fine day in mid-June, I packed my big bag of geeky wonders, put on my long skirt and shirt, tied back my hair and left the house with a mixture of anticipation and apprehension.

We had to park the car about 100 meters away from the door of the company because the major road in front of it was cracked and broken with the weight of the American tanks as they entered Baghdad. I half-ran, half-plodded up to the door of the company, my heart throbbing in anticipation of seeing friends, colleagues, secretaries… just generally something familiar again in the strange new nightmare we were living.

The moment I walked through the door, I noticed it. Everything looked shabbier somehow- sadder. The maroon carpet lining the hallways was dingy, scuffed and spoke of the burden of a thousand rushing feet. The windows we had so diligently taped prior to the war were cracked in some places and broken in others… dirty all over. The lights were shattered, desks overturned, doors kicked in, and clocks torn from the walls.

I stood a moment, hesitantly, in the door. There were strange new faces- fewer of the old ones. Everyone was standing around, looking at everyone else. The faces were sad and lethargic and exhausted. And I was one of the only females. I weaved through the strange mess and made my way upstairs, pausing for a moment on the second floor where management was located, to listen to the rising male voices. The director had died of a stroke during the second week of the war and suddenly, we had our own little ‘power vacuum’. At least 20 different men thought they were qualified to be boss. Some thought they qualified because of experience, some because of rank and some because they were being backed by differing political parties (SCIRI, Al-Daawa, INC).

I continued upstairs, chilled to the bone, in spite of the muggy heat of the building which hadn’t seen electricity for at least 2 months. My little room wasn’t much better off than the rest of the building. The desks were gone, papers all over the place… but A. was there! I couldn’t believe it- a familiar, welcoming face. He looked at me for a moment, without really seeing me, then his eyes opened wide and disbelief took over the initial vague expression. He congratulated me on being alive, asked about my family and told me that he wasn’t coming back after today. Things had changed. I should go home and stay safe. He was quitting- going to find work abroad. Nothing to do here anymore. I told him about my plan to work at home and submit projects… he shook his head sadly.

I stood staring at the mess for a few moments longer, trying to sort out the mess in my head, my heart being torn to pieces. My cousin and E. were downstairs waiting for me- there was nothing more to do, except ask how I could maybe help? A. and I left the room and started making our way downstairs. We paused on the second floor and stopped to talk to one of the former department directors. I asked him when they thought things would be functioning, he wouldn’t look at me. His eyes stayed glued to A.’s face as he told him that females weren’t welcome right now- especially females who ‘couldn’t be protected’. He finally turned to me and told me, in so many words, to go home because ‘they’ refused to be responsible for what might happen to me.

Ok. Fine. Your loss. I turned my back, walked down the stairs and went to find E. and my cousin. Suddenly, the faces didn’t look strange- they were the same faces of before, mostly, but there was a hostility I couldn’t believe. What was I doing here? E. and the cousin were looking grim, I must have been looking broken, because they rushed me out of the first place I had ever worked and to the car. I cried bitterly all the way home- cried for my job, cried for my future and cried for the torn streets, damaged buildings and crumbling people.

I’m one of the lucky ones… I’m not important. I’m not vital. Over a month ago, a prominent electrical engineer (one of the smartest females in the country) named Henna Aziz was assassinated in front of her family- two daughters and her husband. She was threatened by some fundamentalists from Badir’s Army and told to stay at home because she was a woman, she shouldn’t be in charge. She refused- the country needed her expertise to get things functioning- she was brilliant. She would not and could not stay at home. They came to her house one evening: men with machine-guns, broke in and opened fire. She lost her life- she wasn’t the first, she won’t be the last.

Yes, you idiot.

Oh my God. :(

That's really terrible. You have my deepest condolences.

But she sits right at the source, unlike us.

Statistics or shut up.

Since one in four American women have been sexually assaulted, it certainly was inevitable.

1 in 4!? :eek:

Yea, I know women who've been raped, and the aftermath is nothing to laugh at or make light of.

There is just some things you don't joke about, period, and rape is one of those things.

i did know someone over sea whos love one life end in the way i said in my post
sad thing is he was the who find her

Statistics or shut up.

how about you shut up

Statistics or shut up.

I don't see you delivering on how many of these rape rooms there were, let alone on how many less there are, so bite your own tongue, hypocrite.

I don't see you delivering on how many of these rape rooms there were, let alone on how many less there are.

Touche. :cool:

*gives you a cookie*

Statistics or shut up.
http://www.madre.org/programs/appeal/iraq.html
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140012005
http://hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0703/2.htm#_Toc45709963
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=53936&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=IRAQ
http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd%5B157%5D=x-157-178591

Good enough for you? :rolleyes:

http://www.madre.org/programs/appeal/iraq.html
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140012005
http://hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0703/2.htm#_Toc45709963
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=53936&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=IRAQ
http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd%5B157%5D=x-157-178591

Good enough for you? :rolleyes:

5 sources. 5 cookies.

*gives you 5 cookies*

Do you have statistics? Not accounts of individual women. I want statistics. Will these do?

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060713-120940-8385r

http://www.madre.org/articles/me/womensrights.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/26/constitution_draft_worries_iraqi_women/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-20-iraq-draft-women_x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/opinion/main1385781.shtml

Will these do?

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060713-120940-8385r

http://www.madre.org/articles/me/womensrights.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/26/constitution_draft_worries_iraqi_women/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-20-iraq-draft-women_x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/opinion/main1385781.shtml

5 cookies for you, too. :p

*gives you 5*

1 in 4!? :eek:

Isn't America beautiful... :(

Since one in four American women have been sexually assaulted, it certainly was inevitable.

Sorry to hear you went through that Bitchkitten

*gives you a slice of cheese cake*

Isn't America beautiful... :(

I knew we were a violent country, but shit...1 in 4 is just insane. :(

1 in 4!? :eek:

http://www.tamu.edu/women_genderequity/Files/PDFs/DYK/Sexual%20Assault.pdf

In Massachusetts an estimated 22% of women and 7% of men experience sexual assault in their lifetime.
http://www.hes-inc.org/scp_nsrccfacts.htm

Sexual assault happens to 1 in 4 Canadian women at some point in their lives.
http://www.kawarthasexualassaultcentre.com/facts.htm

According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men in the United States has experienced an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives.
The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study estimated that between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experienced completed or attempted rape during their college years.
http://www.medicinenet.com/rape/article.htm

Approximately.

http://www.tamu.edu/women_genderequity/Files/PDFs/DYK/Sexual%20Assault.pdf

In Massachusetts an estimated 22% of women and 7% of men experience sexual assault in their lifetime.
http://www.hes-inc.org/scp_nsrccfacts.htm

Sexual assault happens to 1 in 4 Canadian women at some point in their lives.
http://www.kawarthasexualassaultcentre.com/facts.htm

According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men in the United States has experienced an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives.
The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study estimated that between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experienced completed or attempted rape during their college years.
http://www.medicinenet.com/rape/article.htm

Approximately.

Thanks for the links.

I didn't question your numbers, they just surprised me. And again, sorry you went through that. :(

Sorry to hear you went through that Bitchkitten

*gives you a slice of cheese cake*Oooh, better than cookies.
It was a long time ago.

Will these do?

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060713-120940-8385r

http://www.madre.org/articles/me/womensrights.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/26/constitution_draft_worries_iraqi_women/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-20-iraq-draft-women_x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/opinion/main1385781.shtml

The only source that actually gave statistics was the madre.org site. All of the others had nothing to do with what I asked. I don't give a damn if women have equal rights or not. I am asking about rape.

Oooh, better than cookies.
It was a long time ago.

have some mudcake to go with it

I think this thread wins the award for most depressing thread ever. :(

I think this thread wins the award for most depressing thread ever. :(

Seconded.

Seconded.

i vote on that too

i think i go call the family of the person iam telling you about
i have not talked to them from the time they called to tell me what he did :(

The only source that actually gave statistics was the madre.org site. All of the others had nothing to do with what I asked. I don't give a damn if women have equal rights or not. I am asking about rape.

Well, aren't you the charming one.

This thread, if you'll bother looking at the title, is, in fact, about whether women have equal rights or not. I'm sorry you don't give a damn about such piddling issues as that. :rolleyes:

I think that the accounts of troops raping Iraqis are probably exaggerated.
Statistics or shut up.

There are bad AND good things going on for and against the women during this war in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it's more than just a one topic story...

This article confirms all of the talk of women in the south of Iraq losing their liberties for fear of social persecution by the newly empowered fundies, but it also talks about how the Kurdish women in the north are doing better now than before the invasion.

I'm not saying that justifies anything, only that this seems to be a better overall analyses of the situations entirety. Data about the Afghan women’s situation is also supplied.

Caution, pdf file, not too big though, just 12 pages.
http://www.usembassy.at/en/download/pdf/women_afghan_iraq.pdf

Well, aren't you the charming one.

This thread, if you'll bother looking at the title, is, in fact, about whether women have equal rights or not. I'm sorry you don't give a damn about such piddling issues as that. :rolleyes:

O, oops. Then I am in the wrong thread. Sorry!

Statistics or shut up.

Why don't you get your own statistics to back what you claim first hmm? I bet you can't

The only source that actually gave statistics was the madre.org site. All of the others had nothing to do with what I asked. I don't give a damn if women have equal rights or not. I am asking about rape.
Because obviously, your rights being taken away is all made up for if an extreme minority of women now aren't subject to state-sponsored rape...

Really hit human happiness levels on the head right there...