NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently (Just heard this on NPR), some french official just compared the Israeli attacks on Lebanon to Nazism. Lovely.

The French official is a dumbass.

Apparently (Just heard this on NPR), some french official just compared the Israeli attacks on Lebanon to Nazism. Lovely.
...that's it? No mention of their relationship with Palestine. (I won't say "oppression" because I don't want eighty generalites yelling "ignorant Jew-hater!!!ZOMG1ONE" at me...

Israel=Nazis?
Homosexuals=Satan?

Apparently (Just heard this on NPR), some french official just compared the Israeli attacks on Lebanon to Nazism. Lovely.

If that person exists, while harsh and possibly incorrect what is wrong with the nature of pointing out that they may or may not have started to become the very thing that oppressed them?

Apparently (Just heard this on NPR), some french official just compared the Israeli attacks on Lebanon to Nazism. Lovely.

In relation to Lebanon, no.

But some of the policies in Gaza and the West Bank are reminicent of the racially divisive politicies of the Nazis; the wall, the bulldozing and the apartheid...

Don't shout at me I'm tired.

In relation to Lebanon, no.

But some of the policies in Gaza and the West Bank are reminicent of the racially divisive politicies of the Nazis; the wall, the bulldozing and the apartheid...

Don't shout at me I'm tired.

The Nazis built a wall? I know the USSR built the Berlin Wall but pray tell what wall they built that was NOT on the sea coast.

The Nazis built a wall? I know the USSR built the Berlin Wall but pray tell what wall they built that was NOT on the sea coast.

I meant in terms of ghettoisation...

I meant in terms of ghettoisation...

If I were you, I would suggest you look at what the wall has done. It has cut down on suicide bombings dramaticly. They even rerouted it a few times due to the Israeli Supreme Court. As for Apartide, you really need to study what that truly was. And the only time bulldozing happens is when they bulldoze homes of those who commit suicide attacks against Israelis. Notice I said Israelis and not Jews. Arab-Israeli has also suffered at the hands of terrorists from their own community.

Dude, that ain't cool. That is insulting to the Nazis! :mad:

If I were you, I would suggest you look at what the wall has done. It has cut down on suicide bombings dramaticly.

Only that has never been the issue. The issue is location. Building it on the Green Line would have cut down on suicide bombings, too.

And the only time bulldozing happens is when they bulldoze homes of those who commit suicide attacks against Israelis.

That's just not true. Israel bulldozes homes for lots of other reasons; it is a standard portion of their operations, regardless of whether or not they are the homes of suicide bombers.

If I were you, I would suggest you look at what the wall has done. It has cut down on suicide bombings dramaticly. They even rerouted it a few times due to the Israeli Supreme Court. As for Apartide, you really need to study what that truly was. And the only time bulldozing happens is when they bulldoze homes of those who commit suicide attacks against Israelis. Notice I said Israelis and not Jews. Arab-Israeli has also suffered at the hands of terrorists from their own community.


I'm going to bed; but I suggest that you read this for extremely convincing and well-researched arguments over Israeli Apharteid:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

I'd say happy reading but it makes for an awful list of pseudo-apartheid actions.

Dude, that ain't cool. That is insulting to the Nazis! :mad:

Twat. Racist fucking twat.

That's just not true. Israel bulldozes homes for lots of other reasons; it is a standard portion of their operations, regardless of whether or not they are the homes of suicide bombers.

Your right. I forgot about those homes that had tunnels where weapons were smuggled into the country to do harm against Israelis.

Your right. I forgot about those homes that had tunnels where weapons were smuggled into the country to do harm against Israelis.

Or that were located near the tunnels, or that might possibly be involved with the tunnels, or that need to be bulldozed in case there is a tunnel....

I'm going to bed; but I suggest that you read this for extremely convincing and well-researched arguments over Israeli Apharteid:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

I'd say happy reading but it makes for an awful list of pseudo-apartheid actions.

My suggestion to you is not to trust the media to broadcast the full story. Actually, never trust the press period to get a story totally right either. In fact, just don't trust the press period.

I'll read it then come back here with my opinions about it.

*Edit* Long article.

Irony.

I disagree with many of the policies that the Israeli government implements, but equating them with Nazism is laughable.

My suggestion to you is not to trust the media to broadcast the full story. Actually, never trust the press period to get a story totally right either. In fact, just don't trust the press period.

I'll read it then come back here with my opinions about it.

*Edit* Long article.

Said it was very well researched - that's just part one!

Off I go for my four hours sleep and an eight o'clock start, ho hum.

Have you ever thought about asking Israelis about how they view their countries? cause personally I know many students who protest against their government's behavior.
But there is something I would like to know, what kind of actions should the Israeli government implement in order to insure the safety of it's own citizens? sure that the actions look wrong by the standards of people who sit comfortably in their home across the sea, but why those people only thing that the soul purpose of those actions is to harm others? Why not see it in the light of trying to preserve the life of their own citizens?

If you can offer an alternative that will be able to stand in the test of reality, please, do so.

My suggestion to you is not to trust the media to broadcast the full story. Actually, never trust the press period to get a story totally right either. In fact, just don't trust the press period.

I'll read it then come back here with my opinions about it.

*Edit* Long article.

I might pooint out that if in excess of 12,000 Homes in Gaza (since 2000) were related to tunnels/and or suicide bombers, that would constitute the first evidence that the area is- in the majority - inhabited by humanoid mole bombs. It would also ignore the collective punishment policy of the Israeli state, and the attitude of the various commanders in charge of it.

As there are two different rules of law applied in the occupied territories, summary dismissal on occassion of property rights of "natives", and their exclusion from power over their own lives, "apartheid" is indeed a fair lable to apply.



If you can offer an alternative that will be able to stand in the test of reality, please, do so..

A full withdrawal and dismantlement of all settlements, and the creation of a Palestinian state.

I disagree with many of the policies that the Israeli government implements, but equating them with Nazism is laughable.


Really ?

Doesn´t Israel´s middle east policy strangely resemble the " Lebensraum " Nazi policy ?

Who says they are the chosen people/race ? They do.

Who says their fatherland is the promised land ? They do.

But they are all wackos in the middle east anyway. They should blow eachother´s guts out, the world is tired of their petty grievances.

The French official is a dumbass.

Agreed.

There is a not-so-slight difference between local expansionism and world-scale enslavement/extermination plans.

If I were you, I would suggest you look at what the wall has done. It has cut down on suicide bombings dramaticly. They even rerouted it a few times due to the Israeli Supreme Court. As for Apartide, you really need to study what that truly was. And the only time bulldozing happens is when they bulldoze homes of those who commit suicide attacks against Israelis. Notice I said Israelis and not Jews. Arab-Israeli has also suffered at the hands of terrorists from their own community.

civilised peoples dont built walls to block people out. israel created the terrorists, the palestinians shouldnt be punished for thier mistakes.

Apparently (Just heard this on NPR), some french official just compared the Israeli attacks on Lebanon to Nazism. Lovely.

Because they fight terrorism with terrorism? Not a good comparison, the jews in nazi germany didn't fight back, did they?

[QUOTE=Medical Oddities;12033803]Really ?

Doesn´t Israel´s middle east policy strangely resemble the " Lebensraum " Nazi policy ?

Who says they are the chosen people/race ? They do.

Who says their fatherland is the promised land ? They do.
QUOTE]

i would agree that the israelis are easily compared to the nazis. thier end goal is the same.

A full withdrawal and dismantlement of all settlements, and the creation of a Palestinian state.

Agreed, but can the international community ensure that no further acts of terror will be commited?



i would agree that the israelis are easily compared to the nazis. thier end goal is the same.


nice to know that you do know the Israelis well enough to make such a comparison, after all, I am sure that you talked with the entire Israelis to have a solid grasp of the Israeli political range? and also know the Israelis political structure and Israeli society...
Try to have all your facts straights before saying things with no foundation such as this, cause you just committed something that I believe you will be against, and that is generalization. Are all the Israelis pro settlers? hell no. Do all the Israeli Jews think that they're the chosen people? hardly, many, if anything above all are atheist or indifferent to biblical edicts.
Do all Israelis wish to expend their area of living? many are quite happy living in the area they area already in for the last 150 years, such as in the central coastal region.

When one go around and analyze things that are made in this world, they usually tend to forget that humans are individuals, and should be treated as ones, Israel is a simple example of that, a country that is fractured by so many opinions and got it's parliament the stability of mental patient due to disagreement on the issues you raised.
If anything, Israel is to be equated to a republican dominated USA. but instead of a bi-partisan formation, you got a poly partisan one.

Agreed, but can the international community ensure that no further acts of terror will be commited?



nice to know that you do know the Israelis well enough to make such a comparison, after all, I am sure that you talked with the entire Israelis to have a solid grasp of the Israeli political range? and also know the Israelis political structure and Israeli society...
Try to have all your facts straights before saying things with no foundation such as this, cause you just committed something that I believe you will be against, and that is generalization. Are all the Israelis pro settlers? hell no. Do all the Israeli Jews think that they're the chosen people? hardly, many, if anything above all are atheist or indifferent to biblical edicts.
Do all Israelis wish to expend their area of living? many are quite happy living in the area they area already in for the last 150 years, such as in the central coastal region.

When one go around and analyze things that are made in this world, they usually tend to forget that humans are individuals, and should be treated as ones, Israel is a simple example of that, a country that is fractured by so many opinions and got it's parliament the stability of mental patient due to disagreement on the issues you raised.
If anything, Israel is to be equated to a republican dominated USA. but instead of a bi-partisan formation, you got a poly partisan one.

pro-israelis on this forum claim that israel is a democracy. if israel is democratic then the gov is sopes to represent the majority. the person i origionaly quoted summed it up nicely. the promised land thing is a good example. note the zionist movement produced alot anti-semetism. a anti-semetic group hitler used to be apart of claimed they were responding from the zionists.

lets explain how gorias views the world.
american, england, israel, china, the nazis. < most countries bar three. < papa new guiney, ireland.
and who knows what russia is doing.

Someone needs to tell that French guy about a friend of mine called Godwin.

I'm going to refer to my old post in the other thread about Israel. People who rip on Israel without any regard to Palestinian fallacy are just fucking sick and disgusting. Seriously, grow the fuck up. Just because Israel is allied with America doesn't give you the right to be a moron.

pro-israelis on this forum claim that israel is a democracy. if israel is democratic then the gov is sopes to represent the majority. the person i origionaly quoted summed it up nicely. the promised land thing is a good example. note the zionist movement produced alot anti-semetism. a anti-semetic group hitler used to be apart of claimed they were responding from the zionists.

lets explain how gorias views the world.
american, england, israel, china, the nazis. < most countries bar three. < papa new guiney, ireland.
and who knows what russia is doing.

a democracy that had only 60% vote in the last elections, and that due to have a a tight coalition ( a little more than 61).... doesn't qualify as the main majority.
And second, I do wonder if you noticed that a little more than a year ago, the israeli government went out of the gaza strip... a small fact I know, one that is too trivial to take into consideration.

If you can offer an alternative that will be able to stand in the test of reality, please, do so..
A full withdrawal and dismantlement of all settlements, and the creation of a Palestinian state.

Another one is to say that all of the West Bank and Gaza are a part of Israel, and all the people in them are made Israeli citizens.

Of course the Jewish population in Israel, which frequently points out how they magnamaniously allow Palastinians to take part in democratic elections and so they could not possibly be oppressing them, would never allow that as they know they would then have a credible Palastinian vote in elections, rather than a tiny minority that can never achieve a political goal.

At the moment Israel looks like it is working on 1 of 3 plans for the West Bank:
1. Hold it until they can figure out a way to get rid of the palastinians there without the world complaining too much.
2. Keep as it is now, running it as their own country which Israelis are free to move to and settle on other peoples land, and allowing the palastinians to do low paid work in Israel and the settlements while officially keeping it as a seperate political entity so they don't have to worry about haveing to let the Palastinians have a say in the actions of the armed forces that dominate their lives.
3. Varient of 1 and 2 - push the palastinains as far back from Israel then claim all the bits without palastinains on them as being part of Israel.

why not, their method are somewhat similar atleast. I don't like israels policies in many things.

The Palestianians are justified in everything they do.

The Palestianians are justified in everything they do.

I kinda agree. and who gives a fuck anyway, not the worlds leaders it seems.

I kinda agree. and who gives a fuck anyway, not the worlds leaders it seems.

Well, its Palenstine.....

I kinda agree. and who gives a fuck anyway, not the worlds leaders it seems.

I know! It doesn't matter how many innocent men, women and children they kill!

I know! It doesn't matter how many innocent men, women and children they kill!

yep. who cares about a few towelheads anyway :rolleyes:

Really ?

Doesn´t Israel´s middle east policy strangely resemble the " Lebensraum " Nazi policy ?

Who says they are the chosen people/race ? They do.

Who says their fatherland is the promised land ? They do.

But they are all wackos in the middle east anyway. They should blow eachother´s guts out, the world is tired of their petty grievances.

And don't forget the massive concentration camps that Israel has built. And taking over half of the Middle East, too, not just a small percentage of it.

yep. who cares about a few towelheads anyway :rolleyes:

Oh, pretty much everyone in the free world cares. Just look at Qana. Let the "towelheads" as you so affectionately put them, put a few disabled kids in a building and fire a few rockets from the roof and see how the world reacts.

Well, its Palenstine.....


And here I thought that the term palestine was created by the british in order to define the region of their mandate, or was it the roman people who call it like that back in the good ol' days of the empire, or was it called because the philistins, who resided in ashqelon and gaza back in biblical times.... I got lost there.

And here I thought that the term palestine was created by the british in order to define the region of their mandate, or was it the roman people who call it like that back in the good ol' days of the empire, or was it called because the philistins, who resided in ashqelon and gaza back in biblical times.... I got lost there.

I think its all three

I think, even in France, calling the Jews Nazis is political suicide. Not to mention the obvious moral objections. The Israelis didn't slaughter and imprison innocent civilians in concentration camps. The Jews never fired rockets at the Nazis.
When you really analyze the situation in Israel and Palestine (and I mean by visiting both sides and learning both their stories) you see that they are just locked in a mutual headlock. The Israelis are in it because if they loosen the grips on the West Bank and Gaza, the militants there will amass huge amounts of armament from Iran and the likes of them, adding to the security risks faced by Israel, one can't really blame the Israelis for taking these measures. But of course you need to realize that the Palestinians are stuck because they only want to work for their keep instead of holding out their hands but this isn't possible because there are a few bad eggs that are causing the sanctions from Israel. It's a vicious circle that helps no one. Adding to this that everytime an Israeli soldier is captured, it hits the whole nation hard, because everyone has served in the army and everyone knows someone who is serving. That's why reprisals are fully supported by Israel.
The only way I see something happening that could alleviate this business is if the Palestinians find those that are attacking Israel and stop them (it's my belief that this needs to come from within, or else they haven't solved their problem). Then slowly they can resolve this situation, but nothing will solve this soon. Which is unfortunate, because both peoples are very respectable and capable.
That's my 2c worth

And here I thought that the term palestine was created by the british in order to define the region of their mandate, or was it the roman people who call it like that back in the good ol' days of the empire, or was it called because the philistins, who resided in ashqelon and gaza back in biblical times.... I got lost there.

greek or romans(forgot who), after philistins.

Why can't Israel simply withdraw to it's original borders as outlined under the British Mandate?

Does a hell of a lot of foreign territory under control of the Israeli military somehow offer protection from the neighbours, or what?

If the point isn't to pillage palestine & annex large parts of the territory, then what possible reason can there be to occupy it?

If it's a question of not wanting the territories to descend into chaos, because Israel has assassinated everything & everyone capable of functioning as a central authority, wouldn't the UN still be a far better choice than the Israeli military, who for obvious reasons are an enemy of the peoples of the occupied territories?

Oh, pretty much everyone in the free world cares. Just look at Qana. Let the "towelheads" as you so affectionately put them, put a few disabled kids in a building and fire a few rockets from the roof and see how the world reacts.

Wasnt that proven as crap?

Why can't Israel simply withdraw to it's original borders as outlined under the British Mandate?

Does a hell of a lot of foreign territory under control of the Israeli military somehow offer protection from the neighbours, or what?

If the point isn't to pillage palestine & annex large parts of the territory, then what possible reason can there be to occupy it?

Well some peole wont give up land, even if it means saving the lives of thousand if not millions

Agreed.

There is a not-so-slight difference between local expansionism and world-scale enslavement/extermination plans.

There isn't if you're in the way of the expansion and sitting on your land that they have decided shpould be theirs.

The French official is a dumbass.

I second that.

Wasnt that proven as crap?

Nope. You ever watched the Hizbollah sponsored channel? They're willing to sacrifice their own to provide the most graphic images of war to drum up support.

It's pretty ridiculous that you're trying to support Palestine in this. I'd love to see the PLO and Hamas receive the same scrutinity as the IDF does.

Agreed.

There is a not-so-slight difference between local expansionism and world-scale enslavement/extermination plans.

Not when you're the person whose property is being expanded into with the option of fleeing your land or getting shot for being a terrorist.

Not when you're the person whose property is being expanded into with the option of fleeing your land or getting shot for being a terrorist.

Snap!

Nope. You ever watched the Hizbollah sponsored channel? They're willing to sacrifice their own to provide the most graphic images of war to drum up support.

It's pretty ridiculous that you're trying to support Palestine in this. I'd love to see the PLO and Hamas receive the same scrutinity as the IDF does.

It never ceases to amaze me how the sacrifices some do make is belittled by the pro-Israel lobby. Only the lowest of motives and methods can be ascribed to the demonised "Arab", it seems.

I see nothing "ridiculous" in supporting any peoples right to self determination, by the way.

It never ceases to amaze me how the sacrifices some do make is belittled by the pro-Israel lobby. Only the lowest of motives and methods can be ascribed to the demonised "Arab", it seems.

I see nothing "ridiculous" in supporting any peoples right to self determination, by the way.

Self Determination?! SELF DETERMINATION!?! The Knesset has offered SELF-DETERMINATION REPEATEDLY to a nation that has NEVER existed before in the history of the world only to be shot down by peoples who refuse such an offer because they refuse to recognize the right of Israelis to exist. I cannot believe the point of absurdity in which people will associate with "Palestine" in order to spite Western allies.

If anyone can be compared to Hitler and the nazis, it should be bin Laden and his cronies, only on a much smaller scale since they can't gain control over any nation except for the weak 3rd world nations.

It doesn't surprise me that a Frenchman would say something like that.

Self Determination?! SELF DETERMINATION!?! The Knesset has offered SELF-DETERMINATION REPEATEDLY to a nation that has NEVER existed before in the history of the world only to be shot down by peoples who refuse such an offer because they refuse to recognize the right of Israelis to exist. I cannot believe the point of absurdity in which people will associate with "Palestine" in order to spite Western allies.


Ahh yes, the old "They just don't want peace!" shite, complete with an oversimplification of the situation by ommitting to mention the settlements and the status of Arab East Jerusalem....


If anyone (off-topic waffle, off-topic waffle)like that..

Back under your rock please.

civilised peoples dont built walls to block people out. israel created the terrorists, the palestinians shouldnt be punished for thier mistakes.

Israel created the terrorists? Or did they have help from their neighbors who have done nothing for the palestinians? Let us not forget how many overtures by Israel have been made to give the Palestinians a state of their own and how many times that has fallen through due to one incident or another by the Palestinians.

Let us also not forget that Hamas has refused to negotiate with Israel thus another opportunity lost for Hamas to actually do something for their people.

In relation to Lebanon, no.

But some of the policies in Gaza and the West Bank are reminicent of the racially divisive politicies of the Nazis; the wall, the bulldozing and the apartheid...

Don't shout at me I'm tired.

There is no comparison.

Israel created the terrorists? Or did they have help from their neighbors who have done nothing for the palestinians? Let us not forget how many overtures by Israel have been made to give the Palestinians a state of their own and how many times that has fallen through due to one incident or another by the Palestinians..

Yes, and all the while contuing to build settlements....

Let us also not forget that Hamas has refused to negotiate with Israel thus another opportunity lost for Hamas to actually do something for their people.

"RAMALLAH, West Bank - Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas members, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Thursday after the Islamic militant group's landslide victory in parliament elections."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

-snip-

Back under your rock please.


You should have quoted my entire reply. My first paragraph was partially on topic comparing bin Laden to the Hitler and the Nazis.

My 2nd paragraph was completely on topic.

I think you should go "back under your rock"

You should have quoted my entire reply.

No, I think not.

If I can recommend, live in israel for a bit, and than formulate an opinion, that way you'll have both outside and inside facts.

Ahh yes, the old "They just don't want peace!" shite, complete with an oversimplification of the situation by ommitting to mention the settlements and the status of Arab East Jerusalem....

One of which, amusingly enough, were offered.

But, whilst we're at it, you might want to recall that the West Bank once belonged to Jordan, The Gaza Strip belonged to Egypt and the Golan Heights belonged to Syria.

One of which, amusingly enough, were offered.

All of it? No. And the form in which those parts of Jerusalem were offered was unworkable. Araftat, being unmindful of the politick, and not a good negotiator, turned it down without making a counter offer. Thus, this is slung over and over and over.......

But some of the policies in Gaza and the West Bank are reminicent of the racially divisive politicies of the Nazis; the wall, the bulldozing and the apartheid...

Perhaps, if the Palestinians weren't randomly killing Israelis, Israel might not be building a wall or bulldozing homes.

As for the apartheid, got a link?

All of it? No. And the form in which those parts of Jerusalem were offered was unworkable. Araftat, being unmindful of the politick, and not a good negotiator, turned it down without making a counter offer. Thus, this is slung over and over and over.......

There were skirting areas in question, stuff that both sides laid equal claim to, and were tough to really say belonged to anyone, because of their status, but, otherwise, they pretty much offered everything to Arafat, and he turned it down. Part of the reason why the paradigm of the revolutionary leader sucks so much when it comes to actual establishment politics.

Arafat thought that he could force the Israelis to do what he wanted, if he abused their citizens enough with the intifada, he failed, and did a lot of damage to his cause.

"RAMALLAH, West Bank - Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas members, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Thursday after the Islamic militant group's landslide victory in parliament elections."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

Yes, thank you for pointing out that article. Have you read it yourself? Paragraph 3, "Hamas, whose Islamic militants have carried out dozens of suicide bombings against Israel, has said it opposes peace talks and will not disarm." How's that for willingness to negotiate?

I don't think the Palestinians and Israelis are even capable any more of peaceful cooperation. The war has gone on too long. And even where there is peace, there will always be people who will stir it up again. It's a pity, really.

civilised peoples dont built walls to block people out.

Sure, they do. Even if that wall is merely legal in nature.

israel created the terrorists,

Ah - no.

the palestinians shouldnt be punished for thier mistakes.

I was unaware that intentionally strapping on a bomb-belt, wandering to a shopping center and blowing up oneself and a number of innocents was a "mistake."

Let me guess, the Palestinian bomber tripped down the stairs, his outstretched arms slipping into a bomb-belt that someone snuck into his home the night before cleverly disguised as his jacket, decided to go shopping and, upon discovering the detonator, thought he had found that Pez dispenser he lost last year and pushed the button for a Pez, but mistakenly setting off the bomb?

Yeah, that's reasonable...

The Palestianians are justified in everything they do.

By what authority?

And, why would this same authority not apply to Israel?

More than that, during the 1990's, the Israelis were more than willing to wheel and deal with the Palestinians, even if that meant dealing with a terrorist like Arafat. They thought that the PLO/PA could pull something off, and get the Palestinian millstone off of their collective necks. At which point, Arafat decided that he wasn't getting all of what he wanted from negotiation, and resorted to using violence. After the bloody years of the intifada, the Israeli populace came to the conclusion that the Palestinians had no desire to pursue a course of negotiation and peace, and that if they were to try to negotiate again, they'd get the exact same backstabbing experience.

That's what defines the conflict in the region now.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

More than that, during the 1990's, the Israelis were more than willing to wheel and deal with the Palestinians, even if that meant dealing with a terrorist like Arafat.

As an aside - weren't a few prominent Israeli politicians terrorists during the years leading up to the formation of Israel? IIRC a couple of prime miiesters (or equivalent) were members of terrorist groups.

As an aside - weren't a few prominent Israeli politicians terrorists during the years leading up to the formation of Israel? IIRC a couple of prime miiesters (or equivalent) were members of terrorist groups.

Indeed, most of the right winged one were of those groups, while the left winged were part of the Hagana.

As an aside - weren't a few prominent Israeli politicians terrorists during the years leading up to the formation of Israel? IIRC a couple of prime miiesters (or equivalent) were members of terrorist groups.

Yep, what their involvement was in the matters wasn't entirely clear, but, more than one was associated with some group such as the Haganah or something.

Part of the problem with the middle east is that everyone's hands are soaked with blood.

As an aside - weren't a few prominent Israeli politicians terrorists during the years leading up to the formation of Israel? IIRC a couple of prime miiesters (or equivalent) were members of terrorist groups.

Indeed, Begin, Shamir, they were part of the Etzel and Lehi....

There were skirting areas in question, stuff that both sides laid equal claim to, and were tough to really say belonged to anyone, because of their status, but, otherwise, they pretty much offered everything to Arafat, and he turned it down. Part of the reason why the paradigm of the revolutionary leader sucks so much when it comes to actual establishment politics.

Arafat thought that he could force the Israelis to do what he wanted, if he abused their citizens enough with the intifada, he failed, and did a lot of damage to his cause.

Yet he went back to the table in 2003, and who was it that left then?

"pretty much" is rather a strange way of putting it. They offered an opening position, whic like all opening positions was unacceptable. What nobody reckoned was that he would just say "no" and not make counter-offers.

More than that, during the 1990's, the Israelis were more than willing to wheel and deal with the Palestinians, even if that meant dealing with a terrorist like Arafat. They thought that the PLO/PA could pull something off, and get the Palestinian millstone off of their collective necks. At which point, Arafat decided that he wasn't getting all of what he wanted from negotiation, and resorted to using violence. After the bloody years of the intifada, the Israeli populace came to the conclusion that the Palestinians had no desire to pursue a course of negotiation and peace, and that if they were to try to negotiate again, they'd get the exact same backstabbing experience. .

The same period that, not uncoincidentally, saw the largest amount of settlement building and expansion. Arafats failure to stop this led to the situation slipping beyond his grasp, and began the rise of Hamas. Who backstabbed who, we might ask.


"Hamas, whose Islamic militants have carried out dozens of suicide bombings against Israel, has said it opposes peace talks and will not disarm." How's that for willingness to negotiate?.

One might say the same of the Israeli military presence in the occupied territories and the continued assasination campaign against the various palestinian groups.


As for the apartheid, got a link??.

Should a settler be charged with an act such as that described below, he will be tried before a civillian court in Israel. A palestinian, should he not be killed outright, will face a military court.
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150992004

As of 1967, by order of the IDF, the Geneva convention is not applied in the occupied territories. Therefore the Palewstinian is deprived of the protection of international law, not afforded the protection of Israeli law, while the "settler" is treated as a full resident of Israel despite his comitting crimes outside the Israeli state, as its legally constituted. Two tier system of justice=Apartheid. And thats not getting into the whole land thing.

Yep, what their involvement was in the matters wasn't entirely clear, but, more than one was associated with some group such as the Haganah or something.

So why say "even if it meant dealing with a terrorist like Arafat" when the guy dealing with him was a terrorist too? When the elected leaders of the Israelis was a terrorist too?

Saying "even if it meant dealing with a terrorist" makes it sound like the guy doing the dealing is a nice guy, with not a stain on his character . Which is not the case.

Not everybody got their hands soaked in blood, my isn't....

and by the way, the Haganah wasn't the terrorist group, it was an organization with the purpose to defend the jewish settlement.
The Etzel and the Lechi on the other hand were terrorists groups.
The difference also shows the development of israeli politics, with the Haganah people being the basic for left winged parties and the Etzel and lechi for right winged parties.

Not everybody got their hands soaked in blood, my isn't....

I think he was refering to all sides, a collective 'everybody'.

Not all palastinians have hands soaked in blood, but much of the leadership does, and many people support the leadership (one side or the other, both of which have pretty bloody hands) and the resistance movements, which have plenty of blood on their hands.

Likewise - not all israelis have their hands personally soaked in blood, but much of the leadership does, and the people who support the government and the IDF share the blood on the hands of their leaders and armed forces.

Yep, what their involvement was in the matters wasn't entirely clear, but, more than one was associated with some group such as the Haganah or something.

"Wasn't exactly clear"? O please fuck off with the disengenuity. Begin helped blow up the King David hotel with the Irgun, Sharon and Rabin were with the Hagganah.

Yet he went back to the table in 2003, and who was it that left then?

"pretty much" is rather a strange way of putting it. They offered an opening position, whic like all opening positions was unacceptable. What nobody reckoned was that he would just say "no" and not make counter-offers.
And shattered his credibility at the negotiating table. The reason they left in 2003 is because they thought he'd do the exact same thing to them once again, they'd be stung once, and they weren't going to let it happen again. They perceived Arafat as doing little more than attempting to score diplomatic points with the west, and decided it wasn't worth it. They felt negotiating with him was a lose-lose situation.

In international politics we are wracked with the problem of uncertainty, and we base our actions off of other people's past actions. The Israelis witnessed Arafat's past actions, and acted accordingly. They did the rational thing.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's a lesson states learn very rapidly.

Furthermore, the use of the phrase "pretty much" is to recognize that there is a grey area, where neither party agrees, because of various status quibbles.

The same period that, not uncoincidentally, saw the largest amount of settlement building and expansion. Arafats failure to stop this led to the situation slipping beyond his grasp, and began the rise of Hamas. Who backstabbed who, we might ask.

Irrelevant.

And shattered his credibility at the negotiating table. The reason they left in 2003 is because they thought he'd do the exact same thing to them once again, they'd be stung once, and they weren't going to let it happen again. They perceived Arafat as doing little more than attempting to score diplomatic points with the west, and decided it wasn't worth it. They felt negotiating with him was a lose-lose situation.



More shite. They left to fight an election in which Sharon was the outsider, only to lose.

"Wasn't exactly clear"? O please fuck off with the disengenuity. Begin helped blow up the King David hotel with the Irgun, Sharon and Rabin were with the Hagganah.

I was referring to the Israeli leadership of 1985-2006. Most of the information on what they did is more than a little bit ambiguous.

Yes, and all the while contuing to build settlements....


"RAMALLAH, West Bank - Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas members, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Thursday after the Islamic militant group's landslide victory in parliament elections."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

But yet they are still negotiating with the President of the Palestinian President and they do want to negotiate a peace with Hamas. Hamas however refuses to recognize Israel and thus the reason why Israel won't negotiate with Hamas.

More shite. They left to fight an election in which Sharon was the outsider, only to lose.

If you seriously believe that, then you're horrendously uneducated on what motivates bureaucratic, democratic states.

Chill out man, I can see the explosion of your temper from here.

More than that, during the 1990's, the Israelis were more than willing to wheel and deal with the Palestinians, even if that meant dealing with a terrorist like Arafat. They thought that the PLO/PA could pull something off, and get the Palestinian millstone off of their collective necks. At which point, Arafat decided that he wasn't getting all of what he wanted from negotiation, and resorted to using violence. After the bloody years of the intifada, the Israeli populace came to the conclusion that the Palestinians had no desire to pursue a course of negotiation and peace, and that if they were to try to negotiate again, they'd get the exact same backstabbing experience.

That's what defines the conflict in the region now.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Well said Andaluciae. I could not agree with you more.

Irrelevant.

So its "irrelvant, despite being the cause of much the violence....

So its "irrelvant, despite being the cause of much the violence....

The cause of the violence is something far, far, far deeper than some miserable technicality involving settlements. Should the settlements be removed? Absolutely. Are they the cause of even so much as a portion of the violence, or Arafat's inability to negotiate? Absolutely not.

So its "irrelvant, despite being the cause of much the violence....

I guess you forgot the fact that we would not be where we are today if the Arabs have not launched a war in 1948 to wipe out Israel. Who started the violence when is rather difficult to pin down. It isn't even worth the effort to do so.

But yet they are still negotiating with the President of the Palestinian President and they do want to negotiate a peace with Hamas. Hamas however refuses to recognize Israel and thus the reason why Israel won't negotiate with Hamas.

Yet Sharon refused to negotiate with Arafat even though they did recognise the Israeli state. At a wild guess I'd say that were Hamas to trim their beards, recognise Israel and join the Krishna conciousness movement, another reason would surface directly.


If you seriously believe that, then you're horrendously uneducated on what motivates bureaucratic, democratic states..

The desire to maintain power being one of them....

The desire to maintain power being one of them....

Yes, but in this instance, you're seeing the mistrust that the Israeli bureaucracy and the Israeli public held towards Yasser Arafat.

Trying to have your cake...

I guess you forgot the fact that we would not be where we are today if the Arabs have not launched a war in 1948 to wipe out Israel..

and eat it....


Who started the violence when is rather difficult to pin down. It isn't even worth the effort to do so.


Nobodys to blame apart from the Arabs?


The cause of the violence is something far, far, far deeper than some miserable technicality involving settlements..

Overall perhaps. However it was the increase in building/establishment that fuelled it in the 90's.

Overall perhaps. However it was the increase in building/establishment that fuelled it in the 90's.

No, it was the disillusionment with the lack of improvements in their lives that fueled it during the nineties. The settlements became a physical symbol to some of what was driving the Palestinian fight, but in reality much deeper causes were at play.

No, it was the disillusionment with the lack of improvements in their lives that fueled it during the nineties. The settlements became a physical symbol to some of what was driving the Palestinian fight, but in reality much deeper causes were at play.


And these were.....?

And these were.....?

The collective failure of the Arab States to defeat Israel. The failure for the current level of conflict to improve their lives or achieve their political aims. The collective perception of victimhood. The collective failure of the Arab States to achieve anything positive in their own territories. The collective failure to have the patience to deal within the framework developed in the peace process.

As well as multiple cultural identity issues, so deep that they're enough to drive anyone batty.

The collective failure of the Arab States to defeat Israel. The failure for the current level of conflict to improve their lives or achieve their political aims. The collective perception of victimhood. The collective failure of the Arab States to achieve anything positive in their own territories. The collective failure to have the patience to deal within the framework developed in the peace process.

As well as multiple cultural identity issues, so deep that they're enough to drive anyone batty.

So they weren't in the least pissed off about the Israelis shoving them off their land in the West Bank/Gaza to build settlements, which shot any passing palastinians? While restricting movements of palastinians in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as running a two-tier justice system?

So they weren't in the least pissed off about the Israelis shoving them off their land in the West Bank/Gaza to build settlements, which shot any passing palastinians? While restricting movements of palastinians in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as running a two-tier justice system?

They were, but the settlements were a symptom of the problem, for both sides.

Yet Sharon refused to negotiate with Arafat even though they did recognise the Israeli state. At a wild guess I'd say that were Hamas to trim their beards, recognise Israel and join the Krishna conciousness movement, another reason would surface directly.

That's because of all the trouble that Arafat has caused the Israeli government over the years. Remember that they have tried to negotiate with Arafat and it came back to bite them in the ass. Its been shown before and yet you are still blaming Israel for everything. Are the Palestinians ever at fault with you?

The collective failure of the Arab States to defeat Israel. The failure for the current level of conflict to improve their lives or achieve their political aims. The collective perception of victimhood. The collective failure of the Arab States to achieve anything positive in their own territories. The collective failure to have the patience to deal within the framework developed in the peace process.

As well as multiple cultural identity issues, so deep that they're enough to drive anyone batty.

And nothing to do whatsoever with selective curfews, beatings, arrests, settlers and settlements, land theft, and the armed occupying force from the state that expelled their people not 40 years before hand?

Nobodys to blame apart from the Arabs?

Nice job in reading something that is not there. I did say that pinning it down on who started what is rather difficult. I never said that only the Arabs are to blame though you seem to have it in your head that it is the Israelis that start everything.

Nice job in reading something that is not there. I did say that pinning it down on who started what is rather difficult. I never said that only the Arabs are to blame though you seem to have it in your head that it is the Israelis that start everything.

Well this is what you said........

"I guess you forgot the fact that we would not be where we are today if the Arabs have not launched a war in 1948 to wipe out Israel. Who started the violence when is rather difficult to pin down. It isn't even worth the effort to do so. "

Well this is what you said........

"I guess you forgot the fact that we would not be where we are today if the Arabs have not launched a war in 1948 to wipe out Israel. Who started the violence when is rather difficult to pin down. It isn't even worth the effort to do so. "

The last part of that quote shows precisely what I mean. Who started the violence goes way back. As to the first part, if you sit and think about it, it is also a true statement. If the Arabs have not launched their attack and recognized Israel as Israel recognized them, who knows what would have happened.

The last part of that quote shows precisely what I mean. Who started the violence goes way back. As to the first part, if you sit and think about it, it is also a true statement. If the Arabs have not launched their attack and recognized Israel as Israel recognized them, who knows what would have happened.

True, if you amend that to "Arab States".

One might say the same of the Israeli military presence in the occupied territories and the continued assasination campaign against the various palestinian groups.

Change that to "various palestinian terrorist groups" and I'll agree slightly with your point. But if the terrorists have refused to negotiate, why do you expect the Israelis to try?

True, if you amend that to "Arab States".

Arabs in this case, refers to the Arab States of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq.

raise your hands if you're an anti-semite!
*tries to raise hand, but manages to poke self in eye. rolls around crying.*

And the only time bulldozing happens is when they bulldoze homes of those who commit suicide attacks against Israelis.

Right. Just like in lebanon, when they blew up soap factories because "apparently" Hezbollah had stocked bombs inside it. Bombs that were never recovered. Or how about when they attack shelters and destroy their food supply so Hezbollah can't use them? I bet they would have justified blowing up an entire apartment block because one apartment apparently had Hezbollah militants inside.

My suggestion to you is not to trust the media

My suggestion to you is not to trust the Israeli Government's every word.

But they are all wackos in the middle east anyway. They should blow eachother´s guts out, the world is tired of their petty grievances.

That just borders on Rascism. The Middle East is one of the most fine cultured and generous coalitions in the world. They include states like Tunisia and Egypt, both of which are enjoyed greatly by many people. You can't condemn the Middle East as terrorists over the actions of a minority.

My suggestion to you is not to trust the Israeli Government's every word.

I don't. Just like I don't trust what the Arab World is saying. Heck, I don't even trust the US Government's every word.

Hell, I'm an Israeli citizen and I don't trust the Israeli government. most the Israelis don't

That just borders on Rascism. The Middle East is one of the most fine cultured and generous coalitions in the world. They include states like Tunisia and Egypt, both of which are enjoyed greatly by many people. You can't condemn the Middle East as terrorists over the actions of a minority.Ah yes, little paradises of orthodox religious fascism, misogyny & gay-killing. Gotta love that 'fine culture'.

Bullshit. The Middle East is a hell hole, not in spite of the cultures, but because of them.

My idea is quite simple, but will probably only be appreciated by those who think the human species has exhausted its supply of excuses to prolong its miserable and pointless existence. We detonate all the nuclear warheads on the planet simultaneously. Those who are not killed off immediately by the blasts will be finished off by the radiation and the onset of nuclear winter. Let the cockroaches have the planet to themselves.

Or that were located near the tunnels, or that might possibly be involved with the tunnels, or that need to be bulldozed in case there is a tunnel....

Or



If you Support Hamas and allow them to launch rockets=You lose your home.

You cheer when a sucide bomber blows up some Israelis in public= You lose your home.

Quite simple, it's collective punishment. Wrong but people do it anyway.

Change that to "various palestinian terrorist groups" and I'll agree slightly with your point. But if the terrorists have refused to negotiate, why do you expect the Israelis to try?


Well the truth is that the Israelis have no right to be there, armed palestinians or no. And if proof is needed of their intentions, its right there in the form of cvillian settlements. Not vast minefields, bunkers, watchtowers and anti-tank ditches, but suburban semi-detatched housing. Colonisation.

I have to agree with the above statement.

I have to agree with the above statement.

Which, given the fact you used to have Hitler in your sig and refer occassionally to "the Jew", is rather ironic.

The only thing much of the Arab world and the Iranians will accept is that Israel returns its land it got after 1948. So basically the entire of Israel.

imo they should give back the golan heights and shebaa (sp) farms. No matter their strategic importance.

Bump.

The Palestianians are justified in everything they do.

Do you know what I would say if the Palestinians NUKED Israel? I'd just be like "Well that was stupid, where are they gonna live now?"

Really ?

Doesn´t Israel´s middle east policy strangely resemble the " Lebensraum " Nazi policy ?

Who says they are the chosen people/race ? They do.

Who says their fatherland is the promised land ? They do.

But they are all wackos in the middle east anyway. They should blow eachother´s guts out, the world is tired of their petty grievances.


Obviously somebody does'nt know history about the Land of Israel or they would'nt be shooting off at the mouth proving they don't ....:sniper: