NationStates Jolt Archive

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.

this supports my case (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=509528)

No, you'e just going to get beat up over money. And that Rolex.

*mugs SL*

Capitolism

Yeah! Beware the penile-compensatory parliamentary building built in a fauxtique architectural style! Run! Run for your lives, and won't somebody please think of the children!?!

Pancake bunny!

No, you'e just going to get beat up over money. And that Rolex.

*mugs SL*

I don't have a rolex or money with me at the moment so HA! :p

And everytime I hear about problems in the world money seems to almost always be the root of it.

White slavery, pollution, budget cuts of research vital to solving environmental problems and lets not mention fake food we eat because healthy foods are expensive and the oppression we get from these greedy bastards. To all greedy pen pushers responsible for these crimes against humanity. :upyours:

I don't have a rolex or money with me at the moment so HA! :p


*bides his time*

So, money isn't the problem itself, it is the resources that money represents. Money is just a means of exchange, the resources are no different whether we assume money exists or whether we assume that economies function via magic. As well, this isn't about capitalism destroying us all, anyway, any government could have acted in the same manner and many socialist governments have contributed to horrible pollution. The fact is that resources are scarce and that fact is the same in any society, whether or not we measure it by a fat wallet or in terms of raw input.

I can not let a time pass to quote My favorite novel Accelerando (http://www.accelerando.org/_static/accelerando.html).

"I don't understand the significance. Nobody back then could expect that the main obstacle to doing away with market capitalism would be overcome within half a century, surely?"

"Indeed not. But it's true: Since the 1980s, it has been possible – in principle – to resolve resource allocation problems algorithmically, by computer, instead of needing a market. Markets are wasteful: They allow competition, much of which is thrown on the scrap heap. So why do they persist?"

Manfred shrugs. "You tell me. Conservativism?"

Gianni closes the book and puts it back on the shelf. "Markets afford their participants the illusion of free will, my friend. You will find that human beings do not like being forced into doing something, even if it is in their best interests. Of necessity, a command economy must be coercive – it does, after all, command."

"But my system doesn't! It mediates where supplies go, not who has to produce what –"

Gianni is shaking his head. "Backward chaining or forward chaining, it is still an expert system, my friend. Your companies need no human beings, and this is a good thing, but they must not direct the activities of human beings, either. If they do, you have just enslaved people to an abstract machine, as dictators have throughout history."

Manfred's eyes scan along the bookshelf. "But the market itself is an abstract machine! A lousy one, too. I'm mostly free of it – but how long is it going to continue oppressing people?"

"Maybe not as long as you fear." Gianni sits down next to the renderer, which is currently extruding the inference mill of the analytical engine. "The marginal value of money decreases, after all: The more you have, the less it means to you. We are on the edge of a period of prolonged economic growth, with annual averages in excess of twenty percent, if the Council of Europe's predictor metrics are anything to go by. The last of the flaccid industrial economy has withered away, and this era's muscle of economic growth, what used to be the high-technology sector, is now everything. We can afford a little wastage, my friend, if that is the price of keeping people happy until the marginal value of money withers away completely."

Realization dawns. "You want to abolish scarcity, not just money!"

"Indeed." Gianni grins. "There's more to that than mere economic performance; you have to consider abundance as a factor. Don't plan the economy; take things out of the economy. Do you pay for the air you breathe? Should uploaded minds – who will be the backbone of our economy, by and by – have to pay for processor cycles? No and no."

Capitolism

Yeah! Beware the penile-compensatory parliamentary building built in a fauxtique architectural style! Run! Run for your lives, and won't somebody please think of the children!?!

could be worse - could have said 'capatizum' like somebody in one of my classes wrote.

could be worse - could have said 'capatizum' like somebody in one of my classes wrote.

That's quite out there. This person wasn't perhaps baked, or something?

I like money.

I like money.
Yeah, I do too because I can buy cool stuff with it.

Yes but the fact is most greedy people just horde cash rather than buy stuff with it, meaning making al these harmful choices is just so some bastard can swim around in a pool of ill earned dough. :headbang:

Yes but the fact is most greedy people just horde cash rather than buy stuff with it, meaning making al these harmful choices is just so some bastard can swim around in a pool of ill earned dough. :headbang:
No they don't horde cash. They invest their money, providing capital for companies to use in order to grow and improve. These decisions are all about somebody else's money anyway. These choices are about how somebody else's money is to be spent and for the term "ill earned dough", I think that some elaboration will be required to clarify what that means.

Yes but the fact is most greedy people just horde cash rather than buy stuff with it, meaning making al these harmful choices is just so some bastard can swim around in a pool of ill earned dough. :headbang:

How dare you judge how people get their money. It's none of your business.

Yes but the fact is most greedy people just horde cash rather than buy stuff with it, meaning making al these harmful choices is just so some bastard can swim around in a pool of ill earned dough. :headbang:

How did they earn it? You need to define that before you call it ill-earned.

How dare you judge how people get their money. It's none of your business.

I hear how they get it via the news and other sources. And it is my business because humanity seems to be killing itself for cash. England just cut funds for environmental research, funds cut usually means the government wants more money, Bush cut funds to tons of stuff which resulted in more food poisoning and the spinach incident, and he didn't allow stem cell research for the same reason, he only used religion as an excuse not to, we all know what he truly thinks of Christians. The Philipines has a society so capitolistic its crippling and the pollution is so bad that 1 in every 5 lack lung problems.

I hear how they get it via the news and other sources.
You know how all wealthy people get their money? Hell, you know how most wealthy people get their money? Ha.

I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pyjamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash.
Some people say it's folly,
But I'd rather have the lolly.
With money you can make a splash.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

There is nothing like a newly minted pound.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

Everyone must hanker
For the butchness of a banker.
It's accountancy that makes the world go 'round.
('Round, 'round, 'round.)

You can keep your Marxist ways,
For it's only just a phase,
For it's money, money, money makes the world go 'round.

(...Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, moneeeeey! )

I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pyjamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash.
Some people say it's folly,
But I'd rather have the lolly.
With money you can make a splash.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

There is nothing like a newly minted pound.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

Everyone must hanker
For the butchness of a banker.
It's accountancy that makes the world go 'round.
('Round, 'round, 'round.)

You can keep your Marxist ways,
For it's only just a phase,
For it's money, money, money makes the world go 'round.

(...Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, moneeeeey! )

LOL, not to be hyocritical but...TROLL!!!! :D I'm not Marxist, Fuedalism is my economic ideal.

LOL, not to be hyocritical but...TROLL!!!! :D I'm not Marxist, Fuedalism is my economic ideal.

You dare call Monty Python a TROLL! :eek:


HERITIC!!!! :D

LOL, not to be hyocritical but...TROLL!!!! :D I'm not Marxist, Fuedalism is my economic ideal.
... what? Feudalism is exploitation of the poor workers at its finest.

... what? Feudalism is exploitation of the poor workers at its finest.

I understand that its a system where workers a protected and the government supplies their needs provided they work. I thought it was where you do your job and live, I do my job and keep you alive policy.

... what? Feudalism is exploitation of the poor workers at its finest.

"Halp, Halp, I'm being oppressed!"

I hear how they get it via the news and other sources. And it is my business because humanity seems to be killing itself for cash. England just cut funds for environmental research, funds cut usually means the government wants more money, Bush cut funds to tons of stuff which resulted in more food poisoning and the spinach incident, and he didn't allow stem cell research for the same reason, he only used religion as an excuse not to, we all know what he truly thinks of Christians. The Philipines has a society so capitolistic its crippling and the pollution is so bad that 1 in every 5 lack lung problems.
The only thing is that humanity is only deciding that different uses of resources would be more better. The problems you describe are totally possible even in state controlled societies as well, the Soviet Union had horrible environmental problems that ultimately resulted in large numbers of children born in certain areas becoming mentally retarded. This was not an evil of capitalism, was it? As well, the cutting of government funds is really a matter of state allocation in the first place. Still isn't capitalism. Money, as I said earlier, is just a representation for resources, so it isn't that we make choices for dead, useless money, but rather we choose to allocate resources towards other goals.

I understand that its a system where workers a protected and the government supplies their needs provided they work. I thought it was where you do your job and live, I do my job and keep you alive policy.

er.... not quite...
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#What_is_feudalism.3F)

I understand that its a system where workers a protected and the government supplies their needs provided they work. I thought it was where you do your job and live, I do my job and keep you alive policy.
It is a system where one group of people, essentially own another group. It is still a social contract to some extent but not one most consider very favorable.

I thought it was where you do your job and live, I do my job and keep you alive policy.
The first part is true. The second part, not so much.

i'm not really sure to know what's a pancake bunny, but well, gg

The only thing is that humanity is only deciding that different uses of resources would be more better. The problems you describe are totally possible even in state controlled societies as well, the Soviet Union had horrible environmental problems that ultimately resulted in large numbers of children born in certain areas becoming mentally retarded. This was not an evil of capitalism, was it? As well, the cutting of government funds is really a matter of state allocation in the first place. Still isn't capitalism. Money, as I said earlier, is just a representation for resources, so it isn't that we make choices for dead, useless money, but rather we choose to allocate resources towards other goals.

What can be more important than studying how to make our generation a healtheir, stabler one that knows how to stop natural disaters caused by human stupidity? I mean global warming and other environmental factors are raging out of control and yet we decide something else is more important.

I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pyjamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash.
Some people say it's folly,
But I'd rather have the lolly.
With money you can make a splash.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

There is nothing like a newly minted pound.
(...Money, money, money, money.)

Everyone must hanker
For the butchness of a banker.
It's accountancy that makes the world go 'round.
('Round, 'round, 'round.)

You can keep your Marxist ways,
For it's only just a phase,
For it's money, money, money makes the world go 'round.

(...Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, moneeeeey! )

Up, up, up your premiums, up, up, up your premiums...

(It's fun to charter an accountant... and sail the wide accountancy...)

What can be more important than studying how to make our generation a healtheir, stabler one that knows how to stop natural disaters caused by human stupidity? I mean global warming and other environmental factors are raging out of control and yet we decide something else is more important.
Quite simple, according to some views giving people the right to choose what to do with their money is more moral and correct, not only that but many people do not believe that these environmental factors are that much of a threat and therefore believe this use to be a waste. Value is subjective, other people believe that certain things are more or less important than how you would value them.

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.

this supports my case (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=509528)

Not all of Capitolism is at fault. Only half of it! (Republicans)

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.

this supports my case (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=509528)

Mate.

I'm glad you feel that thread contributed to something for you. However, your rhetoric is deeply unhelpful and doesn't prove anything to anybody. My arguments against capitalism are many fold but - and you can trust me on this - Feudalism is no better.:D

Mate.

I'm glad you feel that thread contributed to something for you. However, your rhetoric is deeply unhelpful and doesn't prove anything to anybody. My arguments against capitalism are many fold but - and you can trust me on this - Feudalism is no better.:D

The economy I have in mind is one where as long as everyone meets the quota in work the government supplies all their needs, once they stop working the government stops supplying.

The economy I have in mind is one where as long as everyone meets the quota in work the government supplies all their needs, once they stop working the government stops supplying.

You would support some form of dictatorship that requires everyone to work to a set-level and punishes anyone who doesn't comply with that?!?

I never thought I'd say this but I think that I *takes deep breath of air in fear at words coming out of his mouth* prefer laissez-faire global capitalism...

The economy I have in mind is one where as long as everyone meets the quota in work the government supplies all their needs, once they stop working the government stops supplying.
The only thing is that this is too simple to reflect all of human desires, which are many-fold. People don't just want bread and water, they want movies, games, automobiles, etc.

The only thing is that this is too simple to reflect all of human desires, which are many-fold. People don't just want bread and water, they want movies, games, automobiles, etc.

Thats why in my ideal economy one must do extra to get extra things, do an extra service, the goverment gives you a credit in which depending on how much you did depends on the amount of credits you get then go shopping, but meeting the first is the challenge. You don't get any credits unless quotas are met.

Thats why in my ideal economy one must do extra to get extra things, do an extra service, the goverment gives you a credit in which depending on how much you did depends on the amount of credits you get then go shopping, but meeting the first is the challenge. You don't get any credits unless quotas are met.

That's bizarre. Do these credit-driven people get to vote this government out in favour of a government that doesn't create unregulated, ferocious competition in its citizenry?

I don't get this at all: what about someone who is physically unable to fulfull his/her quota: does the government even consider them or do they just cease to exist?

Humans are the makers of their own demise.

That's bizarre. Do these credit-driven people get to vote this government out in favour of a government that doesn't create unregulated, ferocious competition in its citizenry?

I don't get this at all: what about someone who is physically unable to fulfull his/her quota: does the government even consider them or do they just cease to exist?

Well in my nationstate medicine is free so they would freely get treatment plus family members would take care of them, every family has at least 1 housekeeper.

Thats why in my ideal economy one must do extra to get extra things, do an extra service, the goverment gives you a credit in which depending on how much you did depends on the amount of credits you get then go shopping, but meeting the first is the challenge. You don't get any credits unless quotas are met.
The only thing is that your ideal system is another form of state-planned economy. These do not do very well, due to poor incentive structures and the inability of dealing with the vast information transferred by a market economy. Really, you'd be better off going with some form of capitalism.

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.


Religion is going to end us all! Everywhere large organizations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for religious purposes.

Politics is going to end us all! Everywhere governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for political gain.

Technology is going to end us all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for technology.

Ergo, religion, politics and stupidity are going to KILL US ALL!

Ergo, we should return not only to communism, but to primitivism and anarchy! Yes! Abolish trade, barter, government of any kind and all technology!

To get rid of politics we'll just have to deprive man of the capacity to reason, I can't think of any other way. So, in addition, large bludgeons to the head for everybody! Or else we'll all be killed!

:)

Thats why in my ideal economy one must do extra to get extra things, do an extra service, the goverment gives you a credit in which depending on how much you did depends on the amount of credits you get then go shopping, but meeting the first is the challenge. You don't get any credits unless quotas are met.

"But you are archists. The State of Thu is even more centralized than the State of A-Io. One power structure controls all, the government, administration, police, army, education, laws, trades, manufactures. And you have the money economy."

"A money economy based on the principle that each worker is paid as he deserves, for the value of his labor - not by capitalists whom he's forced to serve, but by the state of which he's a member!"

"Does he establish the value of his own labor?"

"Why don't you come to Thu and see how real socialism functions?"

"I know how real socialism functions," Shevek said. "I could tell you, but would your government let me explain it, in Thu?"

Thanks, but I'll pass.

Religion is going to end us all! Everywhere large organizations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for religious purposes.

Politics is going to end us all! Everywhere governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for political gain.

Technology is going to end us all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for technology.

Ergo, religion, politics and stupidity are going to KILL US ALL!

Ergo, we should return not only to communism, but to primitivism and anarchy! Yes! Abolish trade, barter, government of any kind and all technology!

To get rid of politics we'll just have to deprive man of the capacity to reason, I can't think of any other way. So, in addition, large bludgeons to the head for everybody! Or else we'll all be killed!

:)

Is this sarcasm? :confused:

Is this sarcasm? :confused:

It is every bit as reasonable as your original post.

The only thing is that your ideal system is another form of state-planned economy. These do not do very well, due to poor incentive structures and the inability of dealing with the vast information transferred by a market economy. Really, you'd be better off going with some form of capitalism.

It has its basis in capitalism anyway: some kind of bizarre meritocracy that punishes the weak in favour of those who can accomplish within these sociological perameters (sic). It's not even a form of state-planned economy really: it's Negative Freedom classical liberalism with a twist - do what you want to anyone at any time and your merit will shine out, with the twist being that everyone MUST work for the government, note, not the state.

As I said I don't really understand this at all....

Thats why in my ideal economy one must do extra to get extra things, do an extra service, the goverment gives you a credit in which depending on how much you did depends on the amount of credits you get then go shopping, but meeting the first is the challenge. You don't get any credits unless quotas are met.

umm... that's captialism dude...

you work harder, you get a bonus/Overtime/promoted/Raise. you don't work, you don't get paid, you get docked your pay, you can even get fired.

It has its basis in capitalism anyway: some kind of bizarre meritocracy that punishes the weak in favour of those who can accomplish within these sociological perameters (sic). It's not even a form of state-planned economy really: it's Negative Freedom classical liberalism with a twist - do what you want to anyone at any time and your merit will shine out, with the twist being that everyone MUST work for the government, note, not the state.

As I said I don't really understand this at all....
It has only passing similarity, being that the government is the coordinator of the economy, it is not capitalism. It really is a planned economy based off of a more right wing view.

I don't have a rolex or money with me at the moment so HA! :p

And everytime I hear about problems in the world money seems to almost always be the root of it.

White slavery, pollution, budget cuts of research vital to solving environmental problems and lets not mention fake food we eat because healthy foods are expensive and the oppression we get from these greedy bastards. To all greedy pen pushers responsible for these crimes against humanity. :upyours:

Its not money thats inherently evil, its the desire of human beings to dominate each other. And thats a misquoted bible verse. Slavery existed long before a form of currency did, pollution is based on the fact that people need something thats in plentiful supply and easy to get. The reason for the "fake" food is because people eat the food on purpose because they want something quick to eat and some even like the taste of it better than "healthy" food.

umm... that's captialism dude...

you work harder, you get a bonus/Overtime/promoted/Raise. you don't work, you don't get paid, you get docked your pay, you can even get fired.

It is my understanding that capitolism is based on the money more than the welfare of society.

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.

this supports my case (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=509528)

NO.
And if capitalism is so bad, then why am I living a hell of a lot better than my ancestor in the 1300s who literally had to work all day to get a small patch of rice working, and could starve whenever a poor harvest occured?

It has only passing similarity, being that the government is the coordinator of the economy, it is not capitalism. It really is a planned economy based off of a more right wing view.

It's (assuming this is about South Lizasauria's ideal economy) actually supporing a more invasive government. one that has to keep tabs on you to determine if you warrant any "extras" for harder work.

It is my understanding that capitolism is based on the money more than the welfare of society.
Capitalists believe that money in the price system reflects the desires of society and therefore the welfare of society.

It is my understanding that capitolism is based on the money more than the welfare of society.

Your system is exactly capitalistic except instead of individual businesses handing out the money, you have one centralized government (a mega-corporation, I suppose) doing it.

If you believe "capitalism is just about the money" than you have really simplified the system.

It has only passing similarity, being that the government is the coordinator of the economy, it is not capitalism. It really is a planned economy based off of a more right wing view.

From 1945-1979 British economic policy was Keynsian and therefore Capitalism with state management. It's only the neo-liberal capitalism of Britain and the USA now that advocates barely any government coordination at all. The term I misused was Classical liberal as they were anti-state intervention: forgive me I'm tired.

It's (assuming this is about South Lizasauria's ideal economy) actually supporing a more invasive government. one that has to keep tabs on you to determine if you warrant any "extras" for harder work.
I don't think he supports private enterprise, which is why he stated that we would work for the government. He does not seem to be a socialist in terms of ideology but he distrusts money as an economic coordinator, so he wants a planned economy for that reason.

It is my understanding that capitolism is based on the money more than the welfare of society.

no, captialism is basied off the idea that the person makes what the person makes, your success or failure is solely your responsiblity. the more you succeed, the more you earn.

Society benefits as a whole anyway because Success stories inspire others, the drive to succeed creates innovation and furthers technology and Ideas. Money is just the incentive to do better. a way to keep score, if you will.

I don't think he supports private enterprise, which is why he stated that we would work for the government. He does not seem to be a socialist in terms of ideology but he distrusts money as an economic coordinator, so he wants a planned economy for that reason.

even if money is taken out of the equation... say replaced with food, services and luxuries... it's still the same thing, Government (who is doling out the rewards/extras,) still needs to watch and monitor things carefully. the only difference is that Maybe, there is a baseline that will be provided no matter if the person works or doesnt.

no, captialism is basied off the idea that the person makes what the person makes, your success or failure is solely your responsiblity. the more you succeed, the more you earn.

Society benefits as a whole anyway because Success stories inspire others, the drive to succeed creates innovation and furthers technology and Ideas. Money is just the incentive to do better. a way to keep score, if you will.

That mindset focusses more on oneself then the country as a whole, which is why it doesn't work, the economy of a country must be focused on bettering the nation and its people.

From 1945-1979 British economic policy was Keynsian and therefore Capitalism with state management. It's only the neo-liberal capitalism of Britain and the USA now that advocates no government coordination at all. The term I misused was Classical liberal as they were anti-state intervention: forgive me I'm tired.
Except that he isn't calling for Keynesianism, which had government and the market work together to coordinate the economy. He is calling for total governmental control. He stated that everyone would be working for the government, a clear indicator of a command economy.

It is my understanding that capitolism is based on the money more than the welfare of society.

Actually its based on the premise that you're living is proportionate to the amount of work you do. As well as how intelligent you are. It promotes the growth of technology and the growth of the human race as a whole. We would still be in prehistoric times if it weren't for capitalism. Not to mention our life spans would be a lot shorter.;)

That mindset focusses more on oneself then the country as a whole, which is why it doesn't work, the economy of a country must be focused on bettering the nation and its people.

LOL... so you believe in Star Trek then. "we work to better ourselves, not for materialistic gain."

That mindset focusses more on oneself then the country as a whole, which is why it doesn't work, the economy of a country must be focused on bettering the nation and its people.

Why? If all individuals are benefitting themselves, do not the people in general benefit? Countries are composed of individuals, by the way.

Except that he isn't calling for Keynesianism, which had government and the market work together to coordinate the economy. He is calling for total governmental control. He stated that everyone would be working for the government, a clear indicator of a command economy.

Then call it corporatism with only one corporation; it still amounts to a capitalistic sociological experiment and refutes his distaste for capitalism.

Capitalists believe that money in the price system reflects the desires of society and therefore the welfare of society.

Desires and needs are two different things, and peoples' desires don't always regard the welfare of society.

even if money is taken out of the equation... say replaced with food, services and luxuries... it's still the same thing, Government (who is doling out the rewards/extras,) still needs to watch and monitor things carefully. the only difference is that Maybe, there is a baseline that will be provided no matter if the person works or doesnt.
I know that. Money is simply a tool of exchange, the only thing is that he views capitalism of a fundamentally bad system and therefore has invented his simple planned economy to deal with the "evil money system". His attack on capitalism simply isn't purely ideological and is more based on his belief that it technically has problems.

Desires and needs are two different things, and peoples' desires don't always regard the welfare of society.

What is the welfare of society? If 90% of society is well off, does that mean the other 10% shouldn't be considered since the society overall is well off?

As much as I hate leftism, I am inclined to agree. Oil companies are playing a huge role in global warming...which will probably be our demise.

Actually its based on the premise that you're living is proportionate to the amount of work you do. As well as how intelligent you are. It promotes the growth of technology and the growth of the human race as a whole. We would still be in prehistoric times if it weren't for capitalism. Not to mention our life spans would be a lot shorter.;)

And many of the people in the world would not be starving and living below the poverty line if not for global capitalism; it benefits the few whilst punishing the many.

As to lifespans: Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the USA due to it's nationalised health service...

Then call it corporatism with only one corporation; it still amounts to a capitalistic sociological experiment and refutes his distaste for capitalism.
Except that capitalism is free enterprise. This isn't capitalism, this is a planned economy, it may be a right wing view of such but it still is a planned economy. It also does not refute his distaste for capitalism. He believes that capitalism does not work, this does not mean that he cares about the masses or has a socialist mentality, but rather that he believes that a certain system is not capable of meeting certain objectives.

Desires and needs are two different things, and peoples' desires don't always regard the welfare of society.
People will not create progress or wealth if their desires are not met though. People don't just seek bread, they seek to accomplish their desires.

I know that. Money is simply a tool of exchange, the only thing is that he views capitalism of a fundamentally bad system and therefore has invented his simple planned economy to deal with the "evil money system". His attack on capitalism simply isn't purely ideological and is more based on his belief that it technically has problems. and his plan isn't better either. he's not creating a simple plan, his ideal economy is closer to "Big Brother" than the most paranoid view of the America's government.

What is the welfare of society? If 90% of society is well off, does that mean the other 10% shouldn't be considered since the society overall is well off?

What it is, the welfare of everyone in society rather than the welfare of few who were lucky enough to get rich off the poor.

What it is, the welfare of everyone rather than the welfare of few who were lucky enough to get rich off the poor.

How did they get rich off the poor? is it not possible that someone can improve their economic situation without being a stereotypical evil corporate junkie?

Except that capitalism is free enterprise. This isn't capitalism.

In that sense it rather depends on what 'work' his people would be doing: they could be investing in sugar companies in another country and being payed by the government rather than the company that they work for.


To call this capitalism is rather stupid, as this is a planned economy.

Then call it extremely regulated capitalism. Note that he hasn't claimed to be against the marketplace, just that the people who pay the people within the market place would be the government.

It also does not refute his distaste for capitalism. He believes that capitalism does not work, he probably does not have as much of an ideological issue with it as you do though.

Fair enough.

and his plan isn't better either. he's not creating a simple plan, his ideal economy is closer to "Big Brother" than the most paranoid view of the America's government.
It is a simplistic plan that to be realistically implemented requires the complexities of big brother. It is simple because he was able to state its entire workings in one sentence, it is complicated because real economies don't work as simply as that one sentence.

It is a simplistic plan that to be realistically implemented requires the complexities of big brother. It is simple because he was able to state its entire workings in one sentence, it is complicated because real economies don't work as simply as that one sentence.

Oh, that I agree with.

Hey, i have an extra cookie... and since we both agree that his Ideal Economic Society (not the society in general) might not work...

*hands extra cookie*

In that sense it rather depends on what 'work' his people would be doing: they could be investing in sugar companies in another country and being payed by the government rather than the company that they work for.

Then call it extremely regulated capitalism. Note that he hasn't claimed to be against the marketplace, just that the people who pay the people within the market place would be the government.

Somebody decrying the evils of money and calling for the government to pay everyone is not likely calling for free enterprise in any form. I doubt that he is for the market place and likely distrusts it. He could be a person believing in very very regulated capitalism but from the cursory glance this looks like a state controlled economy, otherwise I don't think there would be calls for the state to pay everyone for work and would just want the state to strongly monitor and inspect what the companies do pay.

no, captialism is basied off the idea that the person makes what the person makes, your success or failure is solely your responsiblity.

Capitalism is based upon the private ownership of the means of production, and has nothing (necessarily) to do with the market for labor whose alleged character you are extolling.

Monopolies are perfectly capitalist.

Oh, that I agree with.

Hey, i have an extra cookie... and since we both agree that his Ideal Economic Society (not the society in general) might not work...

*hands extra cookie*
YAY!!! COOKIE!!!! :D

Somebody decrying the evils of money and calling for the government to pay everyone is not likely calling for free enterprise in any form. I doubt that he is for the market place and likely distrusts it. He could be a person believing in very very regulated capitalism but from the cursory glance this looks like a state controlled economy, otherwise I don't think there would be calls for the state to pay everyone for work and would just want the state to strongly monitor and inspect what the companies do pay.

Yeah. We're just debating definitions now. I think we agree the same as you and JuNii do that is simply isn't a workable or rounded economic ideal - although obviously for different reasons.:D

*nods to muffin basket in corner and casually offers one*

Yeah. We're just debating definitions now. I think we agree the same as you and JuNii do that is simply isn't a workable or rounded economic ideal - although obviously for different reasons.:D

*nods to muffin basket in corner and casually offers one*
Yeah, we are just debating definitions. I know your reasons are different but we all dislike the idea.

Yay!!! Muffins!!! Oh, crap, I should probably start reciprocating with people..... anyone want donuts? I just bought a bag of powdered ones.

Yeah, we are just debating definitions. I know your reasons are different but we all dislike the idea.

Yay!!! Muffins!!! Oh, crap, I should probably start reciprocating with people..... anyone want donuts? I just bought a bag of powdered ones.

Hole or no hole?

Hole or no hole?
The small little donettes made by Mrs Baird's. I suppose they are not real donuts but they call them so on the bag.

The small little donettes made by Mrs Baird's. I suppose they are not real donuts but they call them so on the bag.

*samples a pseudo-donut and pronounces himself a donut fascist who will only consider something either filled or with a hole in the middle, big enough to sit in his hand a donut*

Mwahahahahaha

has anyone considered a Company may fair better if thay were under a form of democracy where the the voters were the workers of that company, if managed right would not deal so much harm to the communitys thay were functioning in, as it stands thay function as a form of dictatorship but as thay arnt as free to move as thay are still somewhat encased in a non-dictatorship system, but that wont stay that way forever if the big ones get there way.

Capitolism is going to end us all all! Everywhere large corporations and governments make dangerous, harmful and at times suicidal decisions just for a fat wallet.

this supports my case (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=509528)

Must.. resist urge... to kill... not working.... YAAH! *picks up large battleax and starts waving it around, and then whips it at computer* Damnit, broke my computer again. Thanks a lot.

And many of the people in the world would not be starving and living below the poverty line if not for global capitalism; it benefits the few whilst punishing the many.

As to lifespans: Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the USA due to it's nationalised health service...

Actually Cuba doesn't have a greater life expectancy. The US: 77.85 years Cuba: 77.23 years
the statistics are right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy