NationStates Jolt Archive

(Don't worry, there is a question at the end)

Some back story maybe: I've been brought up in a Christian family, my extended family are VERY hardline, but my mum and the church we attend are very left wing in their Christian views.

I've never believed in all the rules and regulations and commandments of the Bible. I support gay marriage, the right for people to live their lives outside the church, creationism is a pack of horseshit etc. etc. I've always said it was the message deep down which was important, the stories are just that: stories, parables to demonstrate something.

But now I think even that is being blown away by one very simple fact: I do not believe in god. I have tried, but its like trying to be in love when your not, it just doesn't work. Praying never did anything for me, but I went along with it anyway just to try. But really I cant deny it anymore, I just do not believe.

I will still go to church though, I love the people and I don't regret growing up in this environment, it set a good example of how to live and helped shape my morals. I've accepted all this, and am a better person for it.

But my question is this: Have you ever had a similar experience? If so, how did you react to it? Go on, you know you want to.

I've actually not had an experience like that, but then, I spend the first several years of my life relatively apathetic to religion. I was confirmed and went through Catechism classes and all of that, but only because my mother made me. I didn't really give a damn about it.

However, once I read St. Thomas Aquinas's cosmological argument, and really started to think about it...well...let's just say that I go to Mass every week.

yeh, i had the exact same thing. i was deep into all the ritual and shit. then i thought about why i was doing it and realised i didn't believe in any of it. so i stopped going to church, i started relying on myself rather some big hippy in the sky, and i've never looked back.

well that's not entirely true, sometimes i wish i could fall back on something outside of myself and sometimes i've wished for the peace of a church, but it's never lasted long, only a momentary thing. i really like the fact i don't have to see all the false smiles and fained concern of my former church going fellows.

(Don't worry, there is a question at the end)

Some back story maybe: I've been brought up in a Christian family, my extended family are VERY hardline, but my mum and the church we attend are very left wing in their Christian views.

I've never believed in all the rules and regulations and commandments of the Bible. I support gay marriage, the right for people to live their lives outside the church, creationism is a pack of horseshit etc. etc. I've always said it was the message deep down which was important, the stories are just that: stories, parables to demonstrate something.

But now I think even that is being blown away by one very simple fact: I do not believe in god. I have tried, but its like trying to be in love when your not, it just doesn't work. Praying never did anything for me, but I went along with it anyway just to try. But really I cant deny it anymore, I just do not believe.

I will still go to church though, I love the people and I don't regret growing up in this environment, it set a good example of how to live and helped shape my morals. I've accepted all this, and am a better person for it.

But my question is this: Have you ever had a similar experience? If so, how did you react to it? Go on, you know you want to.

yep, I lost my faith and did a little soul searching. Fortunatly for me, God felt it was necessary to knock me on my ass to get me to see straight.

now if you lost your faith, Still going to church won't change anything. Infact it would make your search harder. I would say check around, try other churches, talk to other pastors and priests. you'll find one that fits you.

as for which "rules and Regulations" to follow, to me, that's something only God can share with you. Read the bible and pray.

I believe that Sin is a condition that is between you and God. your sins are none of my business unless you want me to get involved. so for me, homosexuality is between them and God. if God told them it's ok, then that's their agreement between themselves and God. same as Pedeophilia, that's between them and God. The important thing is Faith and Belief.

Live your life according to your Faith and Belief in what God wants (not what someone else says God wants) and you will find your path.

I only hope you experience the same Ass Whupin I got. it's quite an experience. :p

yep, I lost my faith and did a little soul searching. Fortunatly for me, God felt it was necessary to knock me on my ass to get me to see straight.
...
I only hope you experience the same Ass Whupin I got. it's quite an experience. :p

i don't know what 'ass-whooping' you got, but my crisis of faith was probably pretty mild. i just wondered one night what it would be like not to have the support of some sort of religion and i suddenly felt like my mind had just gone over the brink of an abyss with no visible bottom. i was instantly converted.

ka-SNIP!

Well, a nice ass-whuppin would go down well right about now.

I still go to church not because I believe, or feel that it'll help me believe, but because its such a big part of my life. Its a small church, only about 50 regulars, so we all know each other very intimately, and many of my good friends are from there. I still support the great work they do and thats the other reason I go, to help out in any practical and physical way possible.

As for living my life in my faith and belief, that'd be great except that thats the problem, I have no faith. Its the not believing in god thing thats the problem. I agree with you, but you cant will yourself to believe, its the sort of thing that has to either be there or happen by some outside influence.

i don't know what 'ass-whooping' you got, but my crisis of faith was probably pretty mild. i just wondered one night what it would be like not to have the support of some sort of religion and i suddenly felt like my mind had just gone over the brink of an abyss with no visible bottom. i was instantly converted.
I remember some of my atheist friends saying when they accepted God, they felt more stable and secure. very interesting...


"He" knocked me down on my ass and I was filled with such joy that I was laughing for hours afterwards... :D

Not the joy of doing something stupid, but a peace and tranquility that... is indiscribable.

I've never been religious and never had that upbringing, so I can't relate to that, but I do remember what is was like when I was a kid and was supposed to believe in Santa.

I just simply didn't, no matter how much people around kept bugging me about what he was gonna get me for Christmas (which we didn't celebrate all that much in my family, sure, we got presents, but that was more because other kids got presents and nothing more). A magical being that knows everything you do and decides whether you've been naughty or good so that he may reward you never seemed plausible to me, so I just told people "there is no such thing as Santa." Trying as they did not to take my "innocence" away, they'd go "oh, but there is! He lives in Lappland, don't you know?" but I never bought it and decided those people were deluding themselves, which of course they were.

Take away actually having been subjected to an attempt at indoctrination, and you'll have my attitude toward religion. It's just simply never been anything I've had any use for, and I've realised I'm very lucky for it, indeed.

(Don't worry, there is a question at the end)

Some back story maybe: I've been brought up in a Christian family, my extended family are VERY hardline, but my mum and the church we attend are very left wing in their Christian views.

I've never believed in all the rules and regulations and commandments of the Bible. I support gay marriage, the right for people to live their lives outside the church, creationism is a pack of horseshit etc. etc. I've always said it was the message deep down which was important, the stories are just that: stories, parables to demonstrate something.

But now I think even that is being blown away by one very simple fact: I do not believe in god. I have tried, but its like trying to be in love when your not, it just doesn't work. Praying never did anything for me, but I went along with it anyway just to try. But really I cant deny it anymore, I just do not believe.

I will still go to church though, I love the people and I don't regret growing up in this environment, it set a good example of how to live and helped shape my morals. I've accepted all this, and am a better person for it.

But my question is this: Have you ever had a similar experience? If so, how did you react to it? Go on, you know you want to.

Yes I have, there is no forcing faith.

I lost my faith in the organization long ago, and just came to the realization that is not god that I believed in.

As to what I did I took my time, made no rash moves and just found myself being atheist

Well, a nice ass-whuppin would go down well right about now.

I still go to church not because I believe, or feel that it'll help me believe, but because its such a big part of my life. Its a small church, only about 50 regulars, so we all know each other very intimately, and many of my good friends are from there. I still support the great work they do and thats the other reason I go, to help out in any practical and physical way possible.

As for living my life in my faith and belief, that'd be great except that thats the problem, I have no faith. Its the not believing in god thing thats the problem. I agree with you, but you cant will yourself to believe, its the sort of thing that has to either be there or happen by some outside influence.

which is why I said to stop going though the motions. all it will do is reinforce your idea that everything is wrong. Perhaps God is trying to nudge you to a different church, a different path. if you are able, go to another church and see what it's about. I was raised Baptist, but I attened Protestant as well as Catholic services. maybe God is trying to tell you that your path is at a different church... where you will be exposed to more things and you just might find your path.

(Don't worry, there is a question at the end)

Some back story maybe: I've been brought up in a Christian family, my extended family are VERY hardline, but my mum and the church we attend are very left wing in their Christian views.

I've never believed in all the rules and regulations and commandments of the Bible. I support gay marriage, the right for people to live their lives outside the church, creationism is a pack of horseshit etc. etc. I've always said it was the message deep down which was important, the stories are just that: stories, parables to demonstrate something.

But now I think even that is being blown away by one very simple fact: I do not believe in god. I have tried, but its like trying to be in love when your not, it just doesn't work. Praying never did anything for me, but I went along with it anyway just to try. But really I cant deny it anymore, I just do not believe.

I will still go to church though, I love the people and I don't regret growing up in this environment, it set a good example of how to live and helped shape my morals. I've accepted all this, and am a better person for it.

But my question is this: Have you ever had a similar experience? If so, how did you react to it? Go on, you know you want to.


Yes. For a while(after high school until I was twenty-eight), I was the same way. Then I had my faith restored. Don't sweat it too much. Live well, show compassion for your neighbors and try to make amends for your all-too-human mistakes of judgement, and that's enough. That was Christ's message and the key to eternal life.

but I attened Protestant as well as Catholic services.

Unless by "services" you mean recitations of the Rosary and adorations of the Eucharist, Catholics don't have services.

To Fass:

I dont really think equating Santa to god is a great parallel, but I get your drift.
But come on, didn't you ever WISH that Santa was real? Didn't you WANT to believe, because all the other kids had so much fun believing he existed?

...Nah, probably not.

Unless by "services" you mean recitations of the Rosary and adorations of the Eucharist, Catholics don't have services.

I meant services as in Church Services, Sunday Mass, Sermons, etc.

which is why I said to stop going though the motions. all it will do is reinforce your idea that everything is wrong. Perhaps God is trying to nudge you to a different church, a different path. if you are able, go to another church and see what it's about. I was raised Baptist, but I attened Protestant as well as Catholic services. maybe God is trying to tell you that your path is at a different church... where you will be exposed to more things and you just might find your path.

and don't forget the no church option. not necessarily atheism, but there's nothing wrong with being non-denominational (if that's a word). you don't have to go to a temple to follow a faith.

To Fass:

I dont really think equating Santa to god is a great parallel, but I get your drift.
But come on, didn't you ever WISH that Santa was real? Didn't you WANT to believe, because all the other kids had so much fun believing he existed?

...Nah, probably not.

Sure but that does not make him any more real. And its hard once that belief has its light shown on it, to ever go back to the way it was

Sure there are regrets, but personaly my regrets are more akin to the feelings I had when looking back at my childhood and missing it

and don't forget the no church option. not necessarily atheism, but there's nothing wrong with being non-denominational (if that's a word). you don't have to go to a temple to follow a faith.

that is an option, but one I wouldn't recommend unless one's faith is strong.

I admit, I don't go to church, but I do pray alot (most people think I'm talking to myself... man some of the looks I get...) and I do read the bible. but I did belong to a church and found strength in others. it's just that my work schedule conflicts with my church schedule... so...

I meant services as in Church Services, Sunday Mass, Sermons, etc.


I quote Fr. Benedict Groeschel, from the Forward of "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.

I always feel a twinge of annoyance when I see in a college or a hotel a list of "religious services" and observe the mass listed at 9 A.M. The Mass is not a religious service. When Catholics say morning prayer or the recitation of the rosary or even have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, that's a service. It's something that we do for God, similar to the public prayer of any religious denomination. But the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist, the Divine Liturgy, is not precisely, in its essence, done by man at all.

Let me tell you, I've been a priest for forty years and I never conducted a "service" called a Mass. I was a "stand-in" for a High Priest, to use the words of the Church teaching, I was there functioning in persona Christi-- in the Person of Christ, the High Priest of the Epistle to the Hebrews. People do not come to Mass to recieve my body and blood, and I could not have given it to them if they did. They come for communion with Christ.

To Fass:

I dont really think equating Santa to god is a great parallel, but I get your drift.

I don't see very much difference with deities and Santa, but that's neither here nor there.

But come on, didn't you ever WISH that Santa was real? Didn't you WANT to believe, because all the other kids had so much fun believing he existed?

...Nah, probably not.

As you said, no. I've never had a void that needed to be filled that way; my parents, for all the lousy things they ended up doing as parents later on in my teens were decent parents when I was a kid and if I wondered things they were honest with me: "No, we don't know what happens when you die. Some people believe in a magic being or beings in the sky that take(s) care of you, but it's all a bit silly, really." "Babies come from a mummie's tummy." "If you want to know how humans ended up on the Earth, look in this encyclopaedia for the current scientific explanation." And so on. They weren't big on lying to me to "protect" me, and at least for that they deserve a spot of lauding.

I remember some of my atheist friends saying when they accepted God, they felt more stable and secure. very interesting...


"He" knocked me down on my ass and I was filled with such joy that I was laughing for hours afterwards... :D

Not the joy of doing something stupid, but a peace and tranquility that... is indiscribable.

intoxicating, that's how i'd describe it. always been a big fan of intoxication :D

I do believe in God, but I don't think the Bible is correct. I think the important stuff, like loving thy neighbor, and thou shall not kill/steal/covet thy neighbor's donkey is correct, but a lot of other stuff got garbled in translation.

As for church, all I've gotten out of that was a bunch of hypocrites preaching hellfire & brimstone, and still putting me to sleep, while passing the collection plate.

(Don't worry, there is a question at the end)

Some back story maybe: I've been brought up in a Christian family, my extended family are VERY hardline, but my mum and the church we attend are very left wing in their Christian views.

I've never believed in all the rules and regulations and commandments of the Bible. I support gay marriage, the right for people to live their lives outside the church, creationism is a pack of horseshit etc. etc. I've always said it was the message deep down which was important, the stories are just that: stories, parables to demonstrate something.

But now I think even that is being blown away by one very simple fact: I do not believe in god. I have tried, but its like trying to be in love when your not, it just doesn't work. Praying never did anything for me, but I went along with it anyway just to try. But really I cant deny it anymore, I just do not believe.

I will still go to church though, I love the people and I don't regret growing up in this environment, it set a good example of how to live and helped shape my morals. I've accepted all this, and am a better person for it.

But my question is this: Have you ever had a similar experience? If so, how did you react to it? Go on, you know you want to.

I didn't exactly have the same experience, simply because I didn't grow up in a religious family or environment. In this country, most people are either protestant (no significant sub-groups) or catholic, even though these days more and more people leave the church to save taxes (we pay church tax). The vast majority of nominally christian people, however, aren't exactly "churchgoing christians". We also have Religious Education in school. So basically kids usually grow up with some kind of religious context. I'm catholic, so I went through all the motions like communion (we were mostly in it for the pretty white dresses :p) and later confirmation and once in a while going to church.

But all it really, actually, meant to me - and this, in my opinion, is by far the most important and valuable part - is the part I bolded in your post above.
It's the message that is important, not the way it's packaged.
Which is why I simply cannot fathom how anyone could actually take the bible literally. I just can't.
But at the same time, the good things it says, the good rules it gives us for human interaction, those things should be self-evident for everybody as being good- just as with the good things in every other religion.
I mean, that Jesus guy said all the right things - "son of God" or, well, not.

Since I never was that immersed in religion to begin with, I never really felt the need to question it as one would with something that was an important part in one's life. When I thought about it, it was more in terms of a philosophical and historical puzzle.
And no, I don't believe in God. When I think about it, I always end up at the point where I go "Hmm...... Nah."

I'm not saying there's definitely no "higher being", as in an all-encompassing intelligence or whatever, but that's why I call myself Agnostic, not Atheist. :p

The times I have missed the security that I suspect religion could give you were in regard to death. For one, I have been very glad to know that the mother of a friend of mine who died was very religious, because I knew she would find solace and strength in that - no matter how suspect I find the whole thing.
For another, I can't shake the childhood thoughts about an "afterlife". Not in the sense of "Paradise" or fluffy clouds or whatever, but in the sense that you would somehow be reunited with your loved ones when you die. I know that that belief is based in personal experiences, and I also know that rationally, I don't actually believe it, but it's so ingrained I can't seem to shake it. Oh well, it doesn't do any harm and certainly is a comforting thought, so eh, why not be a little hypocritical? ;)

I quote Fr. Benedict Groeschel, from the Forward of "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.

That guy sounds like a rather useless dick being pedantic about English definitions

That guy sounds like a rather useless dick being pedantic about English definitions

Dude! You've never watched EWTN?

I quote Fr. Benedict Groeschel, from the Forward of "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.

fr. benedict: delusions of grandeur, much?

The times I have missed the security that I suspect religion could give you were in regard to death. For one, I have been very glad to know that the mother of a friend of mine who died was very religious, because I knew she would find solace and strength in that - no matter how suspect I find the whole thing.

I've known several fellow atheists that have died and none of them were more distressed, or whatever, than the religious people I've seen die (occupational hazard). There is "security" in oblivion as well - it all depends on how you look at it.

Dude! You've never watched EWTN?

For a laugh a few times.

there's a definite security in the certainty of oblivion, that's for sure. none of this worry about judgement. i know for sure i've committed plenty of cardinal sins but i've no idea if i'd be judged to have made up for them. nothingness for me ftw!

there's a definite security in the certainty of oblivion, that's for sure. none of this worry about judgement. i know for sure i've committed plenty of cardinal sins but i've no idea if i'd be judged to have made up for them. nothingness for me ftw!

Precisely. Nothing to fear. Nothing to be anxious about. Nothing that you will have any discomfort over, since you will no longer be, and thus won't suffer anything, even the oblivion itself.

But all it really, actually, meant to me - and this, in my opinion, is by far the most important and valuable part - is the part I bolded in your post above.
It's the message that is important, not the way it's packaged.
Which is why I simply cannot fathom how anyone could actually take the bible literally. I just can't.

But at the same time, the good things it says, the good rules it gives us for human interaction, those things should be self-evident for everybody as being good- just as with the good things in every other religion.
I mean, that Jesus guy said all the right things - "son of God" or, well, not.
Exactly. The deep down guidelines for life that the bible (and, I presume, other religious texts) offers are sort of what seems right, perhaps a tad obvious, but some people are thick.


Since I never was that immersed in religion to begin with, I never really felt the need to question it as one would with something that was an important part in one's life. When I thought about it, it was more in terms of a philosophical and historical puzzle.
And no, I don't believe in God. When I think about it, I always end up at the point where I go "Hmm...... Nah."

I'm not saying there's definitely no "higher being", as in an all-encompassing intelligence or whatever, but that's why I call myself Agnostic, not Atheist. :p
That's kinda where I end up, which is part of what worries me. After all the soul searching and gut feelings, I just end up at nah.

I don't actually believe it, but it's so ingrained I can't seem to shake it. Oh well, it doesn't do any harm and certainly is a comforting thought, so eh, why not be a little hypocritical? ;)
A little hypocricy never hurt anybody :p

we wouldn't be human without hypocricy.

I've known several fellow atheists that have died and none of them were more distressed, or whatever, than the religious people I've seen die (occupational hazard). There is "security" in oblivion as well - it all depends on how you look at it.

Oh, no, that example was supposed to mean that my friend died and his mother was the religious one, and when I saw her at the funeral I was actually really glad she was religious - because yeah, it's a crutch, and in my opinion a "fairies and unicorns" one, but hey, it's still a crutch. And honestly, I don't know what she would have done without it.

Sorry if my phrasing in the post was confusing.

As for what you were talking about - I don't doubt that. I was talking about the situations in which I imagine faith would be a comfort to have - I'm not saying it would be like that for all or even most people.
It's not like I'd start believing in God if I lay dying, but I - personally and, like I said, probably because of personal experiences - am pretty sure that I wouldn't calmly look forward to the big void either. So, as for myself, I'd have to go with some half-baked, don't-dwell-on-it-too-long-or-the-contradicitions-will-become-glaringly-obvious, little hypocrisy.

As for what you were talking about - I don't doubt that. I was talking about the situations in which I imagine faith would be a comfort to have - I'm not saying it would be like that for all or even most people.
It's not like I'd start believing in God if I lay dying, but I - personally and, like I said, probably because of personal experiences - am pretty sure that I wouldn't calmly look forward to the big void either. So, as for myself, I'd have to go with some half-baked, don't-dwell-on-it-too-long-or-the-contradicitions-will-become-glaringly-obvious, little hypocrisy.

No judging here; you clasp at the crutch you need. I just hope you someday won't need it any more. :)

For a laugh a few times.

He has a tv show on sunday evenings. "Sunday Night with Fr. Groeschel."

there's a definite security in the certainty of oblivion, that's for sure. none of this worry about judgement. i know for sure i've committed plenty of cardinal sins but i've no idea if i'd be judged to have made up for them. nothingness for me ftw!
Precisely. Nothing to fear. Nothing to be anxious about. Nothing that you will have any discomfort over, since you will no longer be, and thus won't suffer anything, even the oblivion itself.
Oh, but that's not at all how I picture things to go. You think I'm crazy, declining religion but keeping all the bad parts? :p

I never believed in the judging God that would send you to hell and eternal damnation - I guess because I also always believed that every human being is inherently good and I figured, well, if I can see that, any God would have to see it, too, right? So how then could he legitimately send someone to hell? Exactly.
See, sometimes a kid's logic isn't that bad after all. :p

I also don't have any exact picture of what I think would come after you die, and I certainly don't want to think about it too closely, as I already pointed out. Let's just say it's a comforting feeling/illusion that you're not just going to be snuffed out and that's it.

And now stop making me think about it.

<.<

>.>



Exactly. The deep down guidelines for life that the bible (and, I presume, other religious texts) offers are sort of what seems right, perhaps a tad obvious, but some people are thick.
Haha, best single sentence definition of religious texts I have heard as of yet. :p

That's kinda where I end up, which is part of what worries me. After all the soul searching and gut feelings, I just end up at nah. Hehe, yeah, I think "Nah" describes it pretty damn well.
Luckily for me, I never had much invested in the question to begin with - for me it's just one more question to abstractly ponder, not something actually making up an important part of life.

I quote Fr. Benedict Groeschel, from the Forward of "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.
If you will...

I would rather discuss the more important things than how one says Potatoe.

intoxicating, that's how i'd describe it. always been a big fan of intoxication :D
without the hangover and the constant need to go to the restroom. ;)

Eh, I've pretty much been agnostic forever. From God, to the afterlife, to anything else spiritual or supernatural, I just don't think there is enough evidence to rule them out or to confirm their existence.

The way I figure it, if I live well I should turn out okay no matter what.