NationStates Jolt Archive

...but not in the European Charter of Human Rights? Is it because they have singers but not human rights? Turkey participates in both, so does Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine...

Explanations, anyone?

don't know, don't care. how's that for an answer.

don't know, don't care. how's that for an answer.

why did you bother?

why did you bother?

to show you that threads like this are usually ignored.

...but not in the European Charter of Human Rights? Is it because they have singers but not human rights? Turkey participates in both, so does Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine...

Explanations, anyone?

Same reason that they take part in the 'European' championship, qualify from the European pools for the World Cup and have teams who take part in the European Champions League - all in Football (soccer).

Answer: I don't know although I could come up with some very inflammatory anti-zionist, 'white' versus 'brown' arguments.

As to the European Charter of Human Rights - I'm not sure what this actually succeeds in doing in terms of securing Human Rights, however, it is in Israel's interest not to sign up to anything with the tag 'human rights' as they would be internationally condemned for various and horrific abuses of human rights and civil liberties....

to show you that threads like this are usually ignored.

Tis quite interesting just a bit of a strange example....

to show you that threads like this are usually ignored.

o rly?

o rly?

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4254/yarly7fg.jpg

...but not in the European Charter of Human Rights? Is it because they have singers but not human rights? Turkey participates in both, so does Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine...

Explanations, anyone?

as for the first part, israel participate in european contests, since they can't participate in asian nor african contests from obvious reaons.
I don't sure about the human rights character, but it probably political reasons of one side or another. anyway, I don't think europe ever try to bring us in seriousely, or we ever had interest in getting in.

as for the first part, israel participate in european contests, since they can't participate in asian nor african contests from obvious reaons.
I don't sure about the human rights character, but it probably political reasons of one side or another. anyway, I don't think europe ever try to bring us in seriousely, or we ever had interest in getting in.
states don't get brung in, they ask to join, for some reasons. Turkey is losing human rights cases all the time, paying damages all the time, but still stays. What interest could they have that you don't?

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4254/yarly7fg.jpg

Hehe! I love that site with the owl 'Rly' pictures! That reminds me that I should go and take a look at more of those pictures!

Hehe! I love that site with the owl 'Rly' pictures! That reminds me that I should go and take a look at more of those pictures!

actually I have no idea where that is from. i just googled "ya rly"

Hehe! I love that site with the owl 'Rly' pictures! That reminds me that I should go and take a look at more of those pictures!

those are to NSG what kalashnikov is to the taliban

states don't get brung in, they ask to join, for some reasons. Turkey is losing human rights cases all the time, paying damages all the time, but still stays. What interest could they have that you don't?

very simple. they want to join the EU and I pretty sure this is one of the criteria.

very simple. they want to join the EU and I pretty sure this is one of the criteria.

It is not.

those are to NSG what kalashnikov is to the taliban

how do you even know what NSG is? i mean, you have less then 1000 posts.

how do you even know what NSG is? i mean, you have less then 1000 posts.

I know a lot of things. Does your number of posts somehow imply that you know more?

I know a lot of things.

but that does not mean you know what NSG is. this is not a serious place at all.

but that does not mean you know what NSG is. this is not a serious place at all.
o rly?

how do you even know what NSG is? i mean, you have less then 1000 posts.

Typical.:headbang:

Well I have Ifreann to thanks for posting this
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v236/nekoz/th_frenchrly.gif
picture up before! Google Orly and you'll find this ORLY/owl obsessed guy's images. Good fun!

Typical.:headbang:

of what?

It is not.

show me one state in the EU which didn't signed the charter.
anyway, I know one of turkey criteria were progress in the human rights, and I assumming they signed the charter as showing such progress, if not because they had to.
nothing of this is not israeli interest.

very simple. they want to join the EU and I pretty sure this is one of the criteria.

No it was pretty much before there was even an EU.

Well I have Ifreann to thanks for posting this
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v236/nekoz/th_frenchrly.gif
picture up before! Google Orly and you'll find this ORLY/owl obsessed guy's images. Good fun!
http://www.forumspile.com/O_RLY-Quite.jpg

show me one state in the EU which didn't signed the charter.
anyway, I know one of turkey criteria were progress in the human rights, and I assumming they signed the charter as showing such progress, if not because they had to.
nothing of this is not israeli interest.

They all have, but they don't need to sign that charter. The other states just have to like them.

of what?

The 'community' in this forum. Sometimes people are A) rude and B) don't listen to newbies.

The best example is what happens when a new person starts a thread that has been covered before and people are totally dismissive of said thread.

Having said that I love this forum for it's genuinely friendly atmosphere most of the time. I just wish that people would show a little bit more respect sometimes.....although not to racist/homophobic/sexist trolls.....

how do you even know what NSG is? i mean, you have less then 1000 posts.
Dude, you need to relax. About 21903821903120983213801 of your posts consist of this: "No." "Yes." "Neither." "None." "Who cares."

You seldom actually add to a thread, just post one word replies while never adding to the thread.

Like I said before, "God, Poland blows." When the Germans invaded you guys were probably like "No." "Who cares.":rolleyes:

The 'community' in this forum. Sometimes people are A) rude and B) don't listen to newbies.

The best example is what happens when a new person starts a thread that has been covered before and people are totally dismissive of said thread.

Having said that I love this forum for it's genuinely friendly atmosphere most of the time. I just wish that people would show a little bit more respect sometimes.....although not to racist/homophobic/sexist trolls.....
I agree. Down with the Lesbian Black women who dont contribute to soceity!

Well I have Ifreann to thanks for posting this
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v236/nekoz/th_frenchrly.gif
picture up before! Google Orly and you'll find this ORLY/owl obsessed guy's images. Good fun!

http://www.wii60.com/uploads/151.jpg

The 'community' in this forum. Sometimes people are A) rude and B) don't listen to newbies.

The best example is what happens when a new person starts a thread that has been covered before and people are totally dismissive of said thread.

Having said that I love this forum for it's genuinely friendly atmosphere most of the time. I just wish that people would show a little bit more respect sometimes.....although not to racist/homophobic/sexist trolls.....

rudeness to newbies is good4u, but one can't tell a newbie from the postcount, so patronizing should be conducted with much caution:)

No it was pretty much before there was even an EU.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/default_en.htm
the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights, as signed and proclaimed by the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission at the European Council meeting in Nice on 7 December 2000.
http://europa.eu/abc/history/index_en.htm
The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) introduced new forms of co-operation between the member state governments - for example on defence, and in the area of "justice and home affairs". By adding this inter-governmental co-operation to the existing "Community" system, the Maastricht Treaty created the European Union (EU).


how exactly, the charter was existed before there was EU if it signed on 7 december 2000, more than 8 years after the EU established from eunion of former european communities?
also, turkey probably didn't signed it immidiately, so signing in the recent years going well with their tries to get into the EU.

I agree. Down with the Lesbian Black women who dont contribute to soceity!

*slaps it in the style of Monty Python fish-slapping scene for being said racist/homophobic/sexist troll.*





*decides that's not good enough and so steals three letters from it's name so name now reads The Antian Islands*

Mwahahahahaha

Dude, you need to relax. About 21903821903120983213801 of your posts consist of this: "No." "Yes." "Neither." "None." "Who cares."

i don't even have that many posts.

They all have, but they don't need to sign that charter. The other states just have to like them.

any state which entered to the EU, had to accept all of the EU former laws, and the charter is one of them. I don't think they will ever let any country which refuse to sign the charter be in the EU.

how exactly, the charter was existed before there was EU if it signed on 7 december 2000, more than 8 years after the EU established from eunion of former european communities?
also, turkey probably didn't signed it immidiately, so signing in the recent years going well with their tries to get into the EU.

Turkey signed in 1949 (http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/About_Coe/Member_states/e_tu.asp#TopOfPage)

any state which entered to the EU, had to accept all of the EU former laws, and the charter is one of them. I don't think they will ever let any country which refuse to sign the charter be in the EU.

the charter is not part of Community law.

Turkey signed in 1949 (http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/About_Coe/Member_states/e_tu.asp#TopOfPage)

concil of europe =/= EU

...but not in the European Charter of Human Rights? Is it because they have singers but not human rights? Turkey participates in both, so does Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine...

Explanations, anyone?

Israel probably participates in the Eurovision song because a lot of Israelis have their roots in Europe or are of European descent.

As three of the countries you list as having signed the Charter have extremely questionable human rights records I don't see why you're so keen for Israel to sign. Israel has an excellent human rights record: it is the undoubtedly the best in the region and is certainly better than those of Turkey, Russia, and Azerbaijan. No other country has faced the attacks that Israel has and emerged with such clean hands. The Israeli Supreme Court is second to none, putting the courts of the US and the EU to shame. Few other courts have explicitly outlawed torture, even when it might save lives. Few other courts have consistently over-ruled the military in times of conflict, sometimes even forcing the IDF to change tried and tested procedures if they are ruled to be incompatible with human rights.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/default_en.htm
the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights, as signed and proclaimed by the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission at the European Council meeting in Nice on 7 December 2000.
http://europa.eu/abc/history/index_en.htm
The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) introduced new forms of co-operation between the member state governments - for example on defence, and in the area of "justice and home affairs". By adding this inter-governmental co-operation to the existing "Community" system, the Maastricht Treaty created the European Union (EU).


how exactly, the charter was existed before there was EU if it signed on 7 december 2000, more than 8 years after the EU established from eunion of former european communities?
also, turkey probably didn't signed it immidiately, so signing in the recent years going well with their tries to get into the EU.
My mistake, its not the charter mentioned. Im sure that there was a declaration or a international treaty about human rights, signed before that but can't remember the english name of it. Im searching for an English source on net, when I find it I post it.

Turkey signed in 1949 (http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/About_Coe/Member_states/e_tu.asp#TopOfPage)

they signed to the council of europe. were does it mention the date the signed the chrter (which established only on 7 december 2000)?

My mistake, its not the charter mentioned. Im sure that there was a declaration or a international treaty about human rights, signed before that but can't remember the english name of it. Im searching for an English source on net, when I find it I post it.

that would be universal declaration on human rights

the charter is not part of Community law.
it approved in the EU and signed by all of the EU members. I would think they will except any countrey which join to sign it.
if not, they ust be really impotent, by making charter which you don't have to sign, and won't benefit you if you do.

they signed to the council of europe. were does it mention the date the signed the chrter (which established only on 7 december 2000)?

on the same page, under 'human rights', though they didn't ratify it until 1954

that would be universal declaration on human rights

Thank you. Being tired of body I am tired in mind too. Because of Pope, Istanbul traffic pretty much sucked in last few days. Because of polic blockades I had to walk some 30 km just to meet with some friends and play a damn game of Planescape... I caught cold because of wind coming from the sea.

it approved in the EU and signed by all of the EU members. I would think they will except any countrey which join to sign it.
if not, they ust be really impotent, by making charter which you don't have to sign, and won't benefit you if you do.

The EU =/= Europe

The EU is not a member of the charter

that would be universal declaration on human rights
which bring us to the israeli-UN relationship, and I prefer to stay out of this complex issue.

on the same page, under 'human rights', though they didn't ratify it until 1954

European Convention on Human Rights =/= european charter of human rights.

The EU =/= Europe

The EU is not a member of the charter

no, but it signed in the EU stracture. thus it is reasonable to think any EU member had to accept it, unless the EU are really impotent.

European Convention on Human Rights =/= european charter of human rights.

Israeli winner of Euro song contest=/=man=/=woman.

Using the "=/=" symbol =/= fun

Israeli winner of Euro song contest=/=man=/=woman.

if you talking about the last israeli winner, this can count as homophobic statement.
anyway, the eurovision is lousy contest with bad songs.

Israel probably participates in the Eurovision song because a lot of Israelis have their roots in Europe or are of European descent.

As three of the countries you list as having signed the Charter have extremely questionable human rights records I don't see why you're so keen for Israel to sign. Israel has an excellent human rights record: it is the undoubtedly the best in the region and is certainly better than those of Turkey, Russia, and Azerbaijan. No other country has faced the attacks that Israel has and emerged with such clean hands. The Israeli Supreme Court is second to none, putting the courts of the US and the EU to shame. Few other courts have explicitly outlawed torture, even when it might save lives. Few other courts have consistently over-ruled the military in times of conflict, sometimes even forcing the IDF to change tried and tested procedures if they are ruled to be incompatible with human rights.Israel has an excellent human rights record? Who has been recording? And btw, torture is explicitly forbidden in all the states that are signatory to the european convention of human rights.

European Convention on Human Rights =/= european charter of human rights.

True, the name of the charter/document is

Convention for the Protection
of Human Rights and
Fundamental Freedoms

...my mistake

no, but it signed in the EU stracture. thus it is reasonable to think any EU member had to accept it, unless the EU are really impotent.

How is it signed in the EU stracture?

(regardless of EU potency, or lack thereof)

so... when will Israel accept human rights? Or accept Palestanians, Arabs in general as humans?

Using the "=/=" symbol =/= fun

you =/= everyone

you =/= everyone

you =/= my mom

so... when will Israel accept human rights? Or accept Palestanians, Arabs in general as humans?

an interesting perspective...I see the connection very clearly now;)

if you talking about the last israeli winner, this can count as homophobic statement.
anyway, the eurovision is lousy contest with bad songs.

Didn't say anything was wrong with it. I just thought it was funny. Israel, small country,does well in international competition - then the faces on the more conservative folk when they realise who was representing them. Not as funny as if it was Saudi, or Iran, but funny nonetheless.

an interesting perspective...I see the connection very clearly now;)
Perhaps when they decide to behave like humans?


But I wont hold my breath, and until then:
http://www.foxwiz.com/downloads/iraq/jihad1.jpg

True, the name of the charter/document is

Convention for the Protection
of Human Rights and
Fundamental Freedoms

...my mistake

still, why would europe made treaties,conventions or chartrers if one don't have to accept them and they can't do him nothing?
why would israel or any other state need to join them, if it had no benefits?

israel kept human rights, but we don't want that other nations will decide for us what to do, when we know from the past how much they aren't objective. especially, when all our enemies kept no human rights.

you =/= my mom

so?

and look! you're using something you said you would not use.

an interesting perspective...I see the connection very clearly now;)

I'm quite comfortably living along with jews and other minorities in Turkiye and as a matter of fact many jews accept Turkiye as another bigger and safer Israel, a place that they can live peacefully. I just want them as a nation to use their power to end conflict, draw their borders and be done with it. They must accept it that arabs are their neighbours and must establish trade both ways after peace and become an important part of eastern richness-trade. Their dividing politics with Usa create chaos and terror in middle east. They must stop using old English imperialistic ways that proved to be backfiring in the long run.

http://www.foxwiz.com/downloads/iraq/jihad1.jpg
lol.

so?

and look! you're using something you said you would not use.

You == shut up

You == shut up

no, i am not shut up.

no, i am not shut up.

You are teh shut up.

I'm quite comfortably living along with jews and other minorities in Turkiye and as a matter of fact many jews accept Turkiye as another bigger and safer Israel, a place that they can live peacefully. I just want them as a nation to use their power to end conflict, draw their borders and be done with it. They must accept it that arabs are their neighbours and must establish trade both ways after peace and become an important part of eastern richness-trade. Their dividing politics with Usa create chaos and terror in middle east. They must stop using old English imperialistic ways that proved to be backfiring in the long run.

Thats bullshit. Arabs have been the agressors, it has nothing to do with Israelis "accepting" their borders. What the fuck do borders even mean when the Arabs keep invading (and losing) and then sending paramilitary over with rockets and kidnappings.

You are teh shut up.

no, i am not locked up in a room.

no, i am not shut up.

You are teh shut up.

Both of you tools shut up or I invade Poland.:mad:

It is not.

While the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union is not a Common EU law (what with being only a "solemn proclamation"), the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms is and ratification of it is a prerequisite for EU membership:

Article 6 of the Treaty on the European Union (TEU) is the key provision as far as fundamental rights are concerned. It states that:

"2. The Union shall respect fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms signed in Rome on 4 November 1950 and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, as general principles of Community law."

EU membership criteria are pursued by Art. 49 (1) of the Treaty on the European Union:

“Any European State which respects the principles set out in Article 6 may apply to become a member of the Union."

TEU stipulates that any European State which respects the principles set out in Article 6 may apply to become a member of the Union. In addition, candidate countries have to demonstrate that they effectively ensure the protection of the human rights of their citizens in compliance with the Copenhagen criteria against which applications for EU membership are assessed. Fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria is a precondition for opening accession negotiations.

As for the OP, Israel competes in the Eurovision Song Contest for the simple reason that they are a member of the EBU/UER (European Broadcasting Union/Union Européenne de Radio-Télévision). Membership of the EBU/UER is what makes countries eligible to enter the competition; that's why Morocco and Armenia have competed at times (and why Lebanon was going to compete but withdrew when it was not allowed to edit out the Israeli entry).

Perhaps when they decide to behave like humans?


And could you describe what, in your opinion, constitutes "behaving like humans"? or do you have yet another 'interesting' Swedish neo-nazi opinion piece to refer us to for more information?

still, why would europe made treaties,conventions or chartrers if one don't have to accept them and they can't do him nothing?
why would israel or any other state need to join them, if it had no benefits?

israel kept human rights, but we don't want that other nations will decide for us what to do, when we know from the past how much they aren't objective. especially, when all our enemies kept no human rights.

First part, I can´t say I'm sure why states agree to be bound by international agreements. They do, nevertheless. Except North Korea. I am not sure if they're even UN-members.

2nd, I don't know if there are any benefits. Other countries seem to think so, though, otherwise they'd just leave.

Third....good point. Why should Israel agree to be told what to do? Especially if they respect human rights so much.:confused:

Both of you tools shut up or I invade Poland.:mad:

Dude, I'm like 1/16th Polish. NOT COOL.

At least you didn't forget about them.

Both of you tools shut up or I invade Poland.:mad:

you? invade poland? how?

Thats bullshit. Arabs have been the agressors, it has nothing to do with Israelis "accepting" their borders. What the fuck do borders even mean when the Arabs keep invading (and losing) and then sending paramilitary over with rockets and kidnappings.

But no Arab state has attacked Israel in war since the early 70's. And no Arab state is occupying part of Israel. Israel is occupying a number of parts of Arab states and building civillian colonies there however.

Didn't say anything was wrong with it. I just thought it was funny. Israel, small country,does well in international competition - then the faces on the more conservative folk when they realise who was representing them. Not as funny as if it was Saudi, or Iran, but funny nonetheless.

from religious reasons the orthodoxs had no televisions, so they probably ignore it.
still, I think most of the conservatives were smart enough to ignore it or be happy. other said it prove "only gays watch this contest".

And could you describe what, in your opinion, constitutes "behaving like humans"? or do you have yet another 'interesting' Swedish neo-nazi opinion piece to refer us to for more information?
Yes, it constitutes NOT doing this:
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 Palestine riots · 1936-1939 Arab revolt · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · Suez Crisis · Six-Day War · War of Attrition · Yom Kippur War · 1978 South Lebanon conflict · 1982 Lebanon War · 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict · First Intifada · Gulf War · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict

And also, I have 5,773 posts. I estimate 5,772 of those are not posting the Swedish paper, so just drop it. I already said that everything in the site was in Swedish, aside from the article, and its not like they had nazi banners and swastikas hanging around. Enough, its old.

Israel has an excellent human rights record? Who has been recording? And btw, torture is explicitly forbidden in all the states that are signatory to the european convention of human rights.

Israel's ban on torture is more extensive than most. The US has consistently used sleep deprivation, forced uncomfortable positions, loud music, shaking, hoods over the heads, and 'water-boarding' on terrorist suspects. These techniques have also been used by the French and the British. Israeli law classifies all of these as torture, pure and simple. In the US a few years ago police beat and choked a kidnapper in order to make him reveal where the victim had been hidden; both officers were pardoned by the Court of Appeals on the grounds that they were "a group of concerned officers acting in a reasonable manner to obtain information they needed in order to protect another individual from bodily harm or death". In Israel the officers would have been imprisoned. A similar situation occurred in Germany when the police tortured a suspected paedophile, although I can't remember if the officers were convicted or not. Israel's position on torture is even more extraordinary when you consider that they, of all western countries, are most at risk from terrorism. It goes without saying that virtually every other country in the Middle East cheerfully uses torture (and not just loud music either) quite arbitrarily.

Given all of this I think it is eminently reasonable to say that Israel is leading the world in its policy on torture, wouldn't you agree?

from religious reasons the orthodoxs had no televisions, so they probably ignore it.
still, I think most of the conservatives were smart enough to ignore it or be happy. other said it prove "only gays watch this contest".

Gays and women in their 50's-70's....Theres a scientific paper in there somewhere.....

TEU stipulates that any European State which respects the principles set out in Article 6 may apply to become a member of the Union. In addition, candidate countries have to demonstrate that they effectively ensure the protection of the human rights of their citizens in compliance with the Copenhagen criteria against which applications for EU membership are assessed. Fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria is a precondition for opening accession negotiations.

They have to do as the Convention says, but they don't have to be signatory to it, according to your extracts.

Dude, I'm like 1/16th Polish. NOT COOL.

At least you didn't forget about them.
LOL....we'll be prepared to lose any connection you've had to 1/16th of your family, foo'!:upyours: ..........:p
you? invade poland? how?
Does take much now does it. I suppose throw a stick across the border and watch Warsaw go up in flames?

But no Arab state has attacked Israel in war since the early 70's. And no Arab state is occupying part of Israel. Israel is occupying a number of parts of Arab states and building civillian colonies there however.
Trying to be tricky I see. Supporting organizations that attack Israel, or even harboring them, is attacking Israel, even though the state may not officially be declaring war. Thats just the type of scum we're dealing with. Scum thats not fit to be on the bottom of a good man's loafer.

Thats bullshit. Arabs have been the agressors, it has nothing to do with Israelis "accepting" their borders. What the fuck do borders even mean when the Arabs keep invading (and losing) and then sending paramilitary over with rockets and kidnappings.

It's good to see so wise people in the dealings of middle east. Thats why westerners get their asses kicked at every inch. They don't understand and don't want to learn. Crusader mentality, which leaves your bones dry in the sands. You are the same, one of many only fed with propaganda.
I personally have no love for arabs, they got gold from English and rebelled to the Ottoman Empire killing many of my people and opened entire middle east to western invasion. Still the amount of suffering they recieved and most of the world is ignoratn to(because of their race and beliefs) makes me pity them.
Terrorism cannot be attributed to an entire nation, if it can be then Hitler is proved to be true in eliminating an entire race =P

Does take much now does it. I suppose throw a stick across the border and watch Warsaw go up in flames?
that's no going to do anything. warsaw is far from the border.

Yes, it constitutes NOT doing this:
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 Palestine riots · 1936-1939 Arab revolt · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · Suez Crisis · Six-Day War · War of Attrition · Yom Kippur War · 1978 South Lebanon conflict · 1982 Lebanon War · 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict · First Intifada · Gulf War · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.


Wow - wars and riots diqualify people from the "human" list?

Who is left, btw?

And also, I have 5,773 posts. I estimate 5,772 of those are not posting the Swedish paper, so just drop it. I already said that everything in the site was in Swedish, aside from the article, and its not like they had nazi banners and swastikas hanging around. Enough, its old.


And of course, you hold no 'racist' views whatsover.....?

.....................Given all of this I think it is eminently reasonable to say that Israel is leading the world in its policy on torture, wouldn't you agree?

um...yes. Comparison to US and Saudi Arabia is not very fair though...

It's good to see so wise people in the dealings of middle east. Thats why westerners get their asses kicked at every inch. They don't understand and don't want to learn. Crusader mentality, which leaves your bones dry in the sands. You are the same, one of many only fed with propaganda.
Blah blah, dont care.

I personally have no love for arabs
They whole race, eh?;)
they got gold from English and rebelled to the Ottoman Empire killing many of my people and opened entire middle east to western invasion. Fine.
Terrorism cannot be attributed to an entire nation
Sure it can, if those nations support/harbor terrorism/terrorists. In internatioan Relations, wich must deal with the idea of Nation-States, not "people", because "people" do not make the decisions.

And could you describe what, in your opinion, constitutes "behaving like humans"? or do you have yet another 'interesting' Swedish neo-nazi opinion piece to refer us to for more information?

Well for a start they could:

1. Stop oppressing women, homosexuals, and dissenting opinions.
2. Stop targetting innocent Israeli civilians.
3. Stop hiding their bomb factories behind hospitals and kindergartens.
4. Stop brain-washing their children with anti-Jewish propaganda and stop encouraging them to become martyrs.
5. Stop trying to finish what Hitler started.
6. Enter negotiations and actually negotiate!!! Israel offered an extremely generous peace-deal but Arafat turned it down and started the Intifada instead, without even makind a counter proposal.

Blah blah, dont care.


They whole race, eh?;)
Fine.

Sure it can, if those nations support/harbor terrorism/terrorists. In internatioan Relations, wich must deal with the idea of Nation-States, not "people", because "people" do not make the decisions.

You call all Irish terrorist? Just one example, please intrigue me? What about Baader Meinhof?

........
Sure it can, if those nations support/harbor terrorism/terrorists. In internatioan Relations, wich must deal with the idea of Nation-States, not "people", because "people" do not make the decisions.

So, by analogy, it is only fair to attribute the doings of George Bush to the rest of usa?

that's no going to do anything. warsaw is far from the border.
Fine then, you leave me no choice but to re-do what our ancestors have done:

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/75CED045-17C4-49B3-83AA-84013058BEB3/72658/m1156enz.gif

I don't think turkey does participate in the charter of human rights. You're probably confusing that with the convention on human rights. The two things are different.

I'm too lazy to check however.

um...yes. Comparison to US and Saudi Arabia is not very fair though...

Britain and France too remember. I think that if Israel's record on torture is better than that of every permanent member of the security council (USA, UK, France, Russia, and China) then they are clearly world leaders. I don't see how their policies could be improved but I'd be delighted to hear your suggestions.

Trying to be tricky I see. Supporting organizations that attack Israel, or even harboring them, is attacking Israel, even though the state may not officially be declaring war. Thats just the type of scum we're dealing with. Scum thats not fit to be on the bottom of a good man's loafer.

By that definition of an attack, how many countries has the US attacked?

Wow - wars and riots diqualify people from the "human" list?
These kinds, yes. The situation in the Middle East is unique, its not "just another war".:rolleyes:




And of course, you hold no 'racist' views whatsover.....?
Sure, but not anyway near extremist, and about 3942839283 more moderate than anything Nazi.

They have to do as the Convention says, but they don't have to be signatory to it, according to your extracts.

I'm sorry, but what you just wrote is nonsensical. They do have to be signatory to it as part of the Copenhagen criteria as part of them is subjecting oneself to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, which one can only do by being a signatory to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

Really, this is a "va de soi" of EU membership, seeing as the Copenhagen Criteria themselves have been clarified through the very jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, which functions under the Convention.

So, you are simply wrong. Face it.

Wow - wars and riots diqualify people from the "human" list?

Genocidal ones certainly do.

Well for a start they could:

1. Stop oppressing women, homosexuals, and dissenting opinions.
2. Stop targetting innocent Israeli civilians.
3. Stop hiding their bomb factories behind hospitals and kindergartens.
4. Stop brain-washing their children with anti-Jewish propaganda and stop encouraging them to become martyrs.
5. Stop trying to finish what Hitler started.
6. Enter negotiations and actually negotiate!!! Israel offered an extremely generous peace-deal but Arafat turned it down and started the Intifada instead, without even makind a counter proposal.

When there is dirty war guerilla high ups decide many things and social revolution is not one of priorities. Those things can only be achieved by a civillian authority and intellectuals. Israel assasinated that kind of people, leaving grim and vengeful behind to lead those people. When there is imminent threat of death hanging over your head you don't chose civil and peaceful rulers, you chose some dumbass like Bush and suffer the consequences.

Well for a start they could:

1. Stop oppressing women, homosexuals, and dissenting opinions.
2. Stop targetting innocent Israeli civilians.
3. Stop hiding their bomb factories behind hospitals and kindergartens.
4. Stop brain-washing their children with anti-Jewish propaganda and stop encouraging them to become martyrs.
5. Stop trying to finish what Hitler started.
6. Enter negotiations and actually negotiate!!! Israel offered an extremely generous peace-deal but Arafat turned it down and started the Intifada instead, without even makind a counter proposal.
Agreed.

You call all Irish terrorist? Just one example, please intrigue me? What about Baader Meinhof?
To be honest, I dont care about the Irish. Thats a problem in GB and with Ireland. I'm not really bothered with them. I care about Islamic terrorist because they affect America, and the rest of the world.

.

Given all of this I think it is eminently reasonable to say that Israel is leading the world in its policy on torture, wouldn't you agree?

emmmm...No.

"Torture in Israel shows that the number tortured is actually much greater; and that GSS agents who interrogate Palestinian detainees torture them, degrade them, and otherwise ill-treat them routinely, in blatant violation of the provisions of international law, mainly in the following manners:
Violence: Beating, slapping, kicking, stepping on shackles; Bending the interrogee and placing him in other painful positions; Intentionally tightening the shackles by which he is bound; Violent shaking. Sleep Deprivation.

Additional 'Interrogation Methods': Prolonged shackling behind the back; Cursing, threats, humiliations; Depriving the detainee of essential needs; Exposure to extreme heat or cold.

Secondary Methods: Isolation and secrecy; Imprisonment under inhuman conditions.

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel estimates that a considerable portion of all interrogees, if not most, had been exposed to interrogation methods which include "severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental." In other words these methods, as applied, cause, at least in their combination and accumulation over time, the level of gravity and cruelty that constitute torture as defined in international law.

In contrast with the years 2000-2001, the years 2002-2003 saw a deterioration in the treatment of Palestinian detainees by the GSS:
Each month, hundreds of Palestinians were subjected to one degree or another of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment (ill-treatment), at the hands of the GSS and bodies working on its behalf. By way of comparison - in September 2001 we estimated that the total number of detainees being subjected to torture and other ill-treatment reached 'only' dozens. The numbers have thus increased dramatically.

Each month, the ill-treatment reaching the level of torture as defined in international law was inflicted in dozens of cases, and possibly more. In other words - torture in Israel had once more become routine. "
http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

By that definition of an attack, how many countries has the US attacked?
Tons, and they were all equally deserving of it.
When there is dirty war guerilla high ups decide many things and social revolution is not one of priorities. Those things can only be achieved by a civillian authority and intellectuals. Israel assasinated that kind of people, leaving grim and vengeful behind to lead those people. When there is imminent threat of death hanging over your head you don't chose civil and peaceful rulers, you chose some dumbass like Bush and suffer the consequences.

EHHHH, wrong answer. Try again. You barely even addressed what he said, and then started bitching about Bush who has absolutly nothing to do with what RLI said.

Britain and France too remember. I think that if Israel's record on torture is better than that of every permanent member of the security council (USA, UK, France, Russia, and China) then they are clearly world leaders. I don't see how their policies could be improved but I'd be delighted to hear your suggestions.

If what you are saying is true, then they are indeed doing very well on the torture part. And sensibly so, given a very precarious position. Is freedom of expression, right to life, and right do a fair trial being respected so well, too?

Tons, and they were all equally deserving of it.


EHHHH, wrong answer. Try again. You barely even addressed what he said, and then started bitching about Bush who has absolutly nothing to do with what RLI said.

Its simple, when attacked people support bad leaders who just monger wars for vengeance and suffer in the end without accomplishing nothing. Cycle of violance. There is no stop to it if something extraordinay is done.

Fine then, you leave me no choice but to re-do what our ancestors have done:

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/75CED045-17C4-49B3-83AA-84013058BEB3/72658/m1156enz.gif

pah. all 3 of those countries are ony a shadow of their former power. and soon poland will rise again.

I'm sorry, but what you just wrote is nonsensical. They do have to be signatory to it as part of the Copenhagen criteria as part of them is subjecting oneself to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, which one can only do by being a signatory to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

Really, this is a "va de soi" of EU membership, seeing as the Copenhagen Criteria themselves have been clarified through the very jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, which functions under the Convention.

So, you are simply wrong. Face it.

Where does it explicitly say that being signatory is a must?

When there is dirty war guerilla high ups decide many things and social revolution is not one of priorities. Those things can only be achieved by a civillian authority and intellectuals. Israel assasinated that kind of people, leaving grim and vengeful behind to lead those people. When there is imminent threat of death hanging over your head you don't chose civil and peaceful rulers, you chose some dumbass like Bush and suffer the consequences.

Firstly, if you admit that these changes would mean a social revolution then that says a lot about their current state. The majority of Palestinians don't even want a peaceful settlement, with approximately 90% wanting to continue fighting until the whole of Israel has been annexed.

Secondly, Israel has tried time and time again to negotiate only to be rewarded by an increase in terrorism. If the Palestinians had accepted the Woodhead Commission's partition plan in 1938 then none of this would have happened. Instead, they declared their intention to 'drive the Jews into the sea' and 'drink the blood of the Jews'. Since then Israel has tried to negotiate many times only to be rebuffed. The Israeli War of Independence is unique in human history in that it ended with the victors suing for peace and the vanquished demanding unconditional surrender.

When the Palestinians want peace then there will be peace.

Trying to be tricky I see. Supporting organizations that attack Israel, or even harboring them, is attacking Israel, even though the state may not officially be declaring war. Thats just the type of scum we're dealing with. Scum thats not fit to be on the bottom of a good man's loafer.

So the US, by harbouring and financing the contras, has disqualified all Americans from the Human race then...?

And what about Israel and the 'christian militias" in Lebanon?

think that if Israel's record on torture is better than that of every permanent member of the security council (USA, UK, France, Russia, and China) then they are clearly world leaders. .

I refer you to my earlier post. I might also point out that Israel has officially and by order refused to enact the Geneva convention in the occupied territories since 1967. Secondly, being "better" in this regard than China is not exactly being home free and and clear.

When there is dirty war guerilla high ups decide many things and social revolution is not one of priorities. remin me who started the "dirty war"? or how this "dirty war" connected to the other middle-eastren states as saudia or iran which not directly participate in the war?
social revolution, never was one of their priorities. the "dirty war" is just excuse.
Those things can only be achieved by a civillian authority and intellectuals. Israel assasinated that kind of people, leaving grim and vengeful behind to lead those people. I sorry, you wrong. the peacefull intelectual which were against the islamic opperession murdered by the terrorists or other radical muslims. not by israel.
When there is imminent threat of death hanging over your head you don't chose civil and peaceful rulers, you chose some dumbass like Bush and suffer the consequences.
as you said, they chose the terrorists, and now they suffer the consequences.

Fhappened. Instead, they declared their intention to 'drive the Jews into the sea' and 'drink the blood of the Jews'. .


Source for the "drink the blood of the jews' remark please?

emmmm...No.

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Nice unbiased source you've found there. The names on the 'who are we' page were most revealing.

Source for the "drink the blood of the jews' remark please?

It was a favourite slogan of Haj Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and a close friend of Adolf Hitler's. He was also responsible for turning a nationalist dispute into a religious war.

Nice unbiased source you've found there. The names on the 'who are we' page were most revealing.

Would care to address the details contained in the post, in particular the fact that torture is perfectly legal in certain circumstances in Israel

These names here? I was unaware the last names of people were a reason to dismiss their case summarily. Except amongst the extreme right, of course.

Would you feel more comfortable if you could measure their skulls?

PCATI Staff

Management
Ms. Hannah Friedman, Executive Director
Mr. Zeev Zamir, Deputy Director

Mr. Louis Frankenthaler, Development Coordinator
Attorney Eliahu Abram - Legal Director
Project Evaluator & Senior Advisor - Mr. Yuval Ginbar

Legal Department
Attorney Eliahu Abram - Legal Director & Head of Legal Department
Attorney Fida Kawa'ar
Attorney Samah Elkhatib Ayoub
Attorney Rachela Erel
Attorney Tahreer Atamleh-Mahanah, Fieldwork Manager
Mr. Mohamad Turk, Fieldwork Manager's Assistant & Translations Coordinator
Ms. Yemina Barneis, Petitions & Complaints Coordinator
Ms. Samira Yosef, Translations
Ms. Rahiq Bsoul, Translations
Mr. Amir Stolovitzky, Administrative Assistant

Public Relations Department
Ms. Orah Maggen, Information&Communication Cordinator
Mr. Eyal Hareuveni, Spokesman
Ms. Mimi Baram, Information Coordinator&Proof Editor
Mr. Erez Pery, Researcher
Mr. Carmi Lecker, Researcher
Mr. Efri Bar - Documentation

Education Project
Mr.Louis Frankenthaler, Education Coordinator

Office maintenance
Ms. Mazal Itzer

Volunteers and Interns:

Sam Blatt
Yaffa Wagner
Naomi Layish
Hanna Arnon

Field Researchers & Lawyers Retained on a Case-by-Case basis:

Mr. Iyad Manasrah - Hebron
Mr. Hassan Zaka - Nablus
Adv. Hassan Shqeidef - Nablus
Mr. Ali Darajma - Nablus
Mr. Ayman Husein - Gaza
Mr. Ednan Basisi - Tul Karem
Mr. Abdallah Abdallah - Beit Lehem
Adv. Mohmad Abu Riya
Adv. Muaid Miari
Adv. Mahmoun Hashim
Adv. Fahmi Awewi
Adv. Faras Abu Hassan
Adv. Anwar Abu-Lafi
Adv. Fahami Skirat
Adv. Louis Okka

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/about.asp?menu=2&submenu=5

remin me who started the "dirty war"? or how this "dirty war" connected to the other middle-eastren states as saudia or iran which not directly participate in the war?
social revolution, never was one of their priorities. the "dirty war" is just excuse.
I sorry, you wrong. the peacefull intelectual which were against the islamic opperession murdered by the terrorists or other radical muslims. not by israel.

as you said, they chose the terrorists, and now they suffer the consequences.

Yes they are at equal fault, I never claimed that they are 'innocent'. I'm not a sympathiser to terror they inflict nor their way of life. Their treatment towards women for example is disqusting and against Prophets teachings. Suicide bombings are unacceptable to human race. There is much much wrong they have done. That still doesn't justify barbarism to them. Beating someone in battle and taking them under your rule is one thing and exterminating them is another. People suffer but later they learn from their mistakes, everyone must be allowed to survive so that from their experiance entire humanity feeds. If ıt was not so the entire western civilisation should have been exterminated to the last man in dark ages. But in close history they used their pain in the past as an urge to create new things.

Problem is, by great propaganda its always them at fault and Israel is an angelic organisation acting only at self defence =P Israel unfortunately doesn't care about its own peoples wellbeing but as bloodlusty as terrorists, working only to eliminate the opposing 'race'. West looks Jews as angels because they feel guilt and shame of all things they have done to them. Christians, not muslims have opressed jews for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden all the guilt and sin of western world is put on shoulders of those people.
I on the other hand am able to look both sides with disgust and understanding at the same time.

If what you are saying is true, then they are indeed doing very well on the torture part. And sensibly so, given a very precarious position. Is freedom of expression, right to life, and right do a fair trial being respected so well, too?

There a nice Israeli joke which somes up the free speech situation rather well:

"You have the same freedom of speech in Israel that you do in Gaza: in Gaza you can praise Yasser Arafat while demonising Ehud Olmert and you can do the same in Israel."

I'm afraid I don't know enough to comment on the situation regarding Israeli courts, although it is generally acknowleged that the Supreme Court is one of the world's best.

Where does it explicitly say that being signatory is a must?

Oh, for crying out loud - "as guaranteed by the European Convention..."

Several of the steps needed to fulfil it - like subjecting oneself to the jurisdiction of the ECHR - require being signatory to and ratifying the Convention as that's the only way to fulfil them. Take for instance the absolute requirement on member states to abolish the death penalty; the way the countries are assessed as to have done that is by them having acceded to Protocol No. 6 to the European Convention on Human Rights, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty and Protocol 13 to the ECHR, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty in all circumstances.

One simply cannot become an EU member without becoming a signatory to the ECHR, as so many steps of the process hinge on being a signatory to it. That's why there is not a single EU country that is not subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights and why the European Court of Justice (the "Supreme Court" of the EU) regularly incorporates ECHR jurisprudence into its own rulings. EU membership and adherence to the ECHR are inextricable.

Now, just because it is not phrased exactly as you'd like it, doesn't take away from the fact that is a requirement. Just swallow the bitter medicine already and face the facts: you were wrong.

I'm afraid I don't know enough to comment on the situation regarding Israeli courts, although it is generally acknowleged that the Supreme Court is one of the world's best.

Their last names meet with your approval then, I take it..?

Oh, for crying out loud - "as guaranteed by the European Convention..."

Several of the steps needed to fulfil it - like subjecting oneself to the jurisdiction of the ECHR - require being signatory to and ratifying the Convention as that's the only way to fulfil them. Take for instance the absolute requirement on member states to abolish the death penalty; the way the countries are assessed as to have done that is by them having acceded to Protocol No. 6 to the European Convention on Human Rights, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty and Protocol 13 to the ECHR, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty in all circumstances.

One simply cannot become an EU member without becoming a signatory to the ECHR, as so many steps of the process hinge on being a signatory to it. That's why there is not a single EU country that is not subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights and why the European Court of Justice (the "Supreme Court" of the EU) regularly incorporates ECHR jurisprudence into its own rulings. EU membership and adherence to the ECHR are inextricable.

Now, just because it is not phrased exactly as you'd like it, doesn't take away from the fact that is a requirement. Just swallow the bitter medicine already and face the facts: you were wrong.
Maybe if you say a few more times that I am wrong, you will be right. :)

But, until then, being forced to do what the Convention says is not in anyway the same as being forced to be signatory to it.

Maybe if you say a few more times that I am wrong, you will be right. :)

But, until then, being forced to do what the Convention says is not in anyway the same as being forced to be signatory to it.

So, this is basically you going "waah, waah, waah! I'm not listening! *puts fingers to ears* la, la, la, la, la."

Well, such purposeful ignorance of the EU and the membership process is nothing anyone than you can cure, as one cannot force someone who closes his eyes to the truth to face it.

So, this is basically you going "waah, waah, waah! I'm not listening! *puts fingers to ears* la, la, la, la, la."

Well, such purposeful ignorance of the EU and the membership process is nothing anyone than you can cure, as one cannot force someone who closes his eyes to the truth to face it.
In all fairness, that might apply to yourself just as well, no?

Using the "=/=" symbol =/= fun

I prefer != just to see how many programmers we have on this site.

so... when will Israel accept human rights? Or accept Palestanians, Arabs in general as humans?

Israel accepts them as humans. If you mean to ask when will the hostilities end, that will be when the Arabs recognize the Jews right to LIVE.

Would care to address the details contained in the post, in particular the fact that torture is perfectly legal in certain circumstances in Israel

I didn't see any fact I'm afraid, only assertion. You can find the Supreme Court's condemnation of any physical pressure, regardless of justification, in the court record Public committee against torture vs. State of Israel HCJ 5100/94, July 15, 1999. If you can produce anything even half as solid then I'll be impressed.

These names here? I was unaware the last names of people were a reason to dismiss their case summarily. Except amongst the extreme right, of course.

Would you feel more comfortable if you could measure their skulls?

Cute. My objection is that Palestinian groups have consistently lied in the past if they thought it would benefit them. In one instance, the IDF were accused of systematically raping Palestinian women. When this claim was exposed as false the Palestinian group in question defended their lies on the grounds that "if we hadn't made up the stories then our Arab brothers wouldn't have come to rescue us" (the claim had been made in an attempt to encourage Egypt, Jordan, et al. to wage another war against Israel).

Given this dubious track record it is reasonable to treat Palestinian organisations with a healthy degree of scepticism, especially when they don't list any sources for their allegations. Anyone can set up a webpage so I'm inclined to trust the Supreme Court over some random people with access to the Internet.

Their last names meet with your approval then, I take it..?

:rolleyes:

I'm having serious doubts as to how anyone in their right mind can criticize Israel when the opposition is infinitely times more f'ed up in their process. Go ahead and point the Israelis out for certain mistakes and crimes, but to blatantly IGNORE the provocation of the Palestinians like most people here is just disgusting and wrong.

Yes they are at equal fault, I never claimed that they are 'innocent'. I'm not a sympathiser to terror they inflict nor their way of life. Their treatment towards women for example is disqusting and against Prophets teachings. Suicide bombings are unacceptable to human race. There is much much wrong they have done. That still doesn't justify [/b]barbarism[/b] to them. Beating someone in battle and taking them under your rule is one thing and exterminating them is another. People suffer but later they learn from their mistakes, everyone must be allowed to survive so that from their experiance entire humanity feeds. If ıt was not so the entire western civilisation should have been exterminated to the last man in dark ages. But in close history they used their pain in the past as an urge to create new things.

Problem is, by great propaganda its always them at fault and Israel is an angelic organisation acting only at self defence =P Israel unfortunately doesn't care about its own peoples wellbeing but as bloodlusty as terrorists, working only to eliminate the opposing 'race'. were did you get this propoganda from?
when ever did israel tried to exterminate them or were barbaric to them?
unlike them, we didn't do it. we aren't angels, but we very humanic.
West looks Jews as angels because they feel guilt and shame of all things they have done to them. Christians, not muslims have opressed jews for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden all the guilt and sin of western world is put on shoulders of those people. first, the muslims also oppressed jewish. christianity had no patient about it.
second, I don't know waht you read or watch, but the west aren't see israel as angels. maybe it was right, just after WW2 and the next 2 decades, but now the opposite is true.
another way to look at it, is that the western guilt and sin from their imperialistic and colonialistic days make them automatically support the "weak" side in other conflicts, and try to satisfy the arabs for what they did to them on the back of israel.

I on the other hand am able to look both sides with disgust and understanding at the same time.every human being think he do. most of them wrong. what make you any different?

I'm having serious doubts as to how anyone in their right mind can criticize Israel when the opposition is infinitely times more f'ed up in their process. Go ahead and point the Israelis out for certain mistakes and crimes, but to blatantly IGNORE the provocation of the Palestinians like most people here is just disgusting and wrong.

Exactly. I don't agree with everything Israel does but to portray it as worse than the surrounding countries is ludicrous.

I prefer != just to see how many programmers we have on this site.

I think it still better to use the symbol that anyone can understood (even if he not programmer).

I'm having serious doubts as to how anyone in their right mind can criticize Israel when the opposition is infinitely times more f'ed up in their process. Go ahead and point the Israelis out for certain mistakes and crimes, but to blatantly IGNORE the provocation of the Palestinians like most people here is just disgusting and wrong.

that one of the best posts I see.

I didn't see any fact I'm afraid, only assertion. You can find the Supreme Court's condemnation of any physical pressure, regardless of justification, in the court record Public committee against torture vs. State of Israel HCJ 5100/94, July 15, 1999. If you can produce anything even half as solid then I'll be impressed..

"The report is based on dozens of sworn affidavits of Palestinians who were interrogated following the September 6, 1999 High Court of Justice ruling. The report points to the fact that the high Court did nothing to change judicial and moral concepts by which an interrogator may consider using torture as a legitimate option, and even provided the GSS with a practical means such as sleep prevention and prolonged tying, allowing interrogators to continue to use the violent methods they had used in the past." (my bold)

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=2


Cute. My objection is that Palestinian groups have consistently lied in the past if they thought it would benefit them. In one instance, the IDF were accused of systematically raping Palestinian women. When this claim was exposed as false the Palestinian group in question defended their lies on the grounds that "if we hadn't made up the stories then our Arab brothers wouldn't have come to rescue us" (the claim had been made in an attempt to encourage Egypt, Jordan, et al. to wage another war against Israel).

Given this dubious track record it is reasonable to treat Palestinian organisations with a healthy degree of scepticism, especially when they don't list any sources for their allegations. Anyone can set up a webpage so I'm inclined to trust the Supreme Court over some random people with access to the Internet.

Its an Israeli organisation. Again, I find your technique of 'last name analysis' questionable. Had somebody here gone through the names of the authors of a report on Palestinian excesses and made a smilar comment, it would be remarked that they were being anti-semtic, and not without grounds.

Which of these meets with your approval, by the way?

Board of Directors and Legal Advisors

Att. Avigdor Feldman, Board Member

Ms. Tal Zilberstein, Board Member

Att. Shlomo Lecker, Acting Chair

Prof. Emmanuel Farjun, Board Member

Prof. Gideon Freudenthal, Board Member

Att. Yuval Elbashan, Board Member

Dr. Avishai Ehrlich, Board Member

Lior Eliasaf-Gurfinkel, Board Member

Hanna Arnon

Yaffa Wagner

Att. Leah Tsemel, Legal Advisor

Att. Michael Sfard, Legal Advisor

In all fairness, that might apply to yourself just as well, no?

No, because: "The Union shall respect fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms signed in Rome on 4 November 1950 and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, as general principles of Community law."

The Treaty on the European Union itself defines the ECHR as community law. There simply is no way a nation would join the EU without being a signatory to the ECHR; the Copenhagen Criteria and the acquis communautaire (of which the TEU is part, again) make sure of that.

Your inability to face that is, well, your problem.

No, because: "The Union shall respect fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms signed in Rome on 4 November 1950 and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, as general principles of Community law."

The Treaty on the European Union itself defines the ECHR as community law. There simply is no way a nation would join the EU without being a signatory to the ECHR; the Copenhagen Criteria and the acquis communautaire (of which the TEU is part, again) make sure of that.

Your inability to face that is, well, your problem.

All the more problematic for me personally, because neither study of EU law or the ECHR leads me to agree with what you are saying. I must obviously do some courses again.

Anyway, you have now repeated your point so often that I think you will convince me soon. The infamous Swedish tactic of repetiton has me nearly subdued.:(

All the more problematic for me personally, because neither study of EU law or the ECHR leads me to agree with what you are saying. I must obviously do some courses again.

Apparently, so.

Anyway, you have now repeated your point so often that I think you will convince me soon. The infamous Swedish tactic of repetiton has me nearly subdued.:(

Well, maybe the UK Home Office is better?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldeucom/166/6011802.htm

"the Treaty of the European Union states that the Union respects the ECHR, which means that it treats the Convention as a rule of law."

Yeah, that idea about you having to study more? Pretty good idea it would seem, since you lack a rudimentary understanding of the TEU.

Yes it isn't fair. Israel is in the Middle East, i.e. Asia. My Dad said it was something to do with Israel being a member of some broadcasting corporation. I always thought it might be either Holocaust guilt, or something to do with how Israel was founded by mostly European colonists/refugees in 1948.

Israel hasn't joined the European Convention on Human Rights for numerous reasons. It's in Asia, not Europe (see above) and as far as I know doesn't want to join the EU or Council of Europe.

Israel also doesn't want human rights treaties to interefere with its colonisation of the occupied Palestinian West Bank or Syrian Golan Heights or murderous attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. Although Britain is a signatory and that didn't stop Blair invading and disintigrating Iraq.


Juan Garcia

Telongan Foreign Minister

Apparently, so.



Well, maybe the UK Home Office is better?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldeucom/166/6011802.htm

"the Treaty of the European Union states that the Union respects the ECHR, which means that it treats the Convention as a rule of law."

Yeah, that idea about you having to study more? Pretty good idea it would seem, since you lack a rudimentary understanding of the TEU.

"which means that it treats the Convention as a rule of law"

funny that they don't say that it means that it must sign the thing, o repetitious one? I have now decided that I know this better than you, and that you are the one that refuses to admit being wrong. I am right, you have now been searching for so long that you would have found your source, if ther was one...

Yes it isn't fair. Israel is in the Middle East, i.e. Asia. My Dad said it was something to do with Israel being a member of some broadcasting corporation. I always thought it might be either Holocaust guilt, or something to do with how Israel was founded by mostly European colonists/refugees in 1948.

Israel hasn't joined the European Convention on Human Rights for numerous reasons. It's in Asia, not Europe (see above) and as far as I know doesn't want to join the EU or Council of Europe.

Israel also doesn't want human rights treaties to interefere with its colonisation of the occupied Palestinian West Bank or Syrian Golan Heights or murderous attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. Although Britain is a signatory and that didn't stop Blair invading and disintigrating Iraq.


Juan Garcia

Telongan Foreign MinisterIndeed.

Israel is made up of Jews who turned their backs on Europe, because they couldn't get along (it seems they can't wherever they go).
They are not in the EU, they don't respect human rights, they have used up the pity that Europe felt for them after the holocaust. They should be expelled from the song contest.

funny that they don't say that it means that it must sign the thing, o repetitious one?

So basically making adherence to the ECHR, which is only possible by being signatory to it, EU law, you're still going to claim that the EU doesn't require member states to be signatories?

funny that they don't say that it means that it must sign the thing, o repetitious one? I have now decided that I know this better than you, and that you are the one that refuses to admit being wrong. I am right, you have now been searching for so long that you would have found your source, if ther was one...

And you think I've searched further than a front page of Google? Oh, honey, that's almost as cute in its delusion as your delusion about the TEU. Though it is awfully pitiful to see you go "well, it's not phrased exactly as I demand it be phrased! Be damned the actual consequence of there being no other way to adhere to the Convention other than being a signatory! La, la, la!"

I'll leave you. It's become apparent you have no clue about EU law, let alone EU accession rules.

So basically making adherence to the ECHR, which is only possible by being signatory to it, EU law, you're still going to claim that the EU doesn't require member states to be signatories?



And you think I've searched further than a front page of Google? Oh, honey, that's almost as cute in its delusion as your delusion about the TEU. Though it is awfully pitiful to see you go "well, it's not phrased exactly as I demand it be phrased! Be damned the actual consequence of there being no other way to adhere to the Convention other than being a signatory! La, la, la!"

I'll leave you. It's become apparent you have no clue about EU law, let alone EU accession rules.
What does adherence mean, in your repetitious opinion?

Israel is culturally close to Europe. Eurovision is a cultural event.

Israel is not geographically in Europe. ECHR is geographically restricted to Europe.

What does adherence mean, in your repetitious opinion?
It means you were Owned, oh clueless one. Don't you even act you have studied EU law, for you could not have missed it. Seriously. Quit it.

Israel is part of the Eurovision Song Contest because culturally, Israel is closer to Europe than to its Arab neighbors. However, politically, Israel is not part of Europe, and is therefore not on the ECHR.

Israel, like Geogia and Aremenia are politically and geographically no in Europe, but they are culturely closer.

So thats that

Israel is part of the Eurovision Song Contest because culturally, Israel is closer to Europe than to its Arab neighbors. However, politically, Israel is not part of Europe, and is therefore not on the ECHR.

azerbaijan is part of europe?

It means you were Owned, oh clueless one. Don't you even act you have studied EU law, for you could not have missed it. Seriously. Quit it.
Citation?

Israel is part of the Eurovision Song Contest because culturally, Israel is closer to Europe than to its Arab neighbors. However, politically, Israel is not part of Europe, and is therefore not on the ECHR.How is Israel culturally closer to Europe than to the Arab neighbors? Israeli "culture" is entirely based on their religion, and we all know that Islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity is.

How is Israel culturally closer to Europe than to the Arab neighbors? Israeli "culture" is entirely based on their religion, and we all know that Islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity is.

Utter rubbish.

Israel is a very secular country. Jewish law is in no way the law of the land. Israel hosts one of the worlds larger gay pride events, which is contrary to Jewish thought. Mixed beaches are prevelant, whilst religious Jews prefers seperate mens and womens beaches. You cannot expect anyone familiar with Israel as a culture to admit that it is a religiously motivated one.

Utter rubbish.

Israel is a very secular country. Jewish law is in no way the law of the land. Israel hosts one of the worlds larger gay pride events, which is contrary to Jewish thought. Mixed beaches are prevelant, whilst religious Jews prefers seperate mens and womens beaches. You cannot expect anyone familiar with Israel as a culture to admit that it is a religiously motivated one.

They are actually doing rather well as concerns gender equality, and protection of social rights of homosexuals, it would seem. Especially as opposed to... for example Russia. Was that not where Gay Pride had to be cancelled? Or was just forbidden by city authorities?