NationStates Jolt Archive

Tread swiftly, up onto yon TROLL!
It is o.k. to flame the bejesus out of a TROLL, who doesnt believe the crap that you do, who's brain does not know the (un)holy touch of soap!



Voice your opines here.


Has it helped your people?

Are things better and/or more cohesive/cooperative because of having multiculturalism?

Has it affected your* culture?

How?

Feel free to add questions on the Query of 'Multiculturalism'

and revisit old responses.













*'your' in no way includes 'you'. 'You' have no equal representation. 'You' ought to leave your homeland because foreigners in 'your' nation are entitled to more rights than 'You'.

Has it helped your people?
Immensely.

Are things better and/or more cohesive/cooperative because of having multiculturalism?
Yes.

Has it affected your* culture?
Yes, but not in a way that is significant from a sociological or economic standpoint.



*'your' in no way includes 'you'. 'You' have no equal representation. 'You' ought to leave your homeland because foreigners in 'your' nation are entitled to more rights than 'You'.

:rolleyes:

The idea that multiculturalism can be anything other than neutral is silly. So is the idea that multiculturalism is something new created by immigration or whatever. Every nation is basically multicultural. The possible exception might be Liechtenstein, but I’m sure even that is debatable. Go to Munich and talk to the Germans there. Now go to Hamburg and do the same. People will not only have different outlooks on life but will also speak pretty different versions of the same language. Heck, to some people it might sound like a different language. The same works if you go to Marseille and then to Lyon. Or Manchester and Bristol.

It amuses me that people like the OP act as though multiculturalism is something that can somehow be stopped.

It amuses me that people like the OP act as though multiculturalism is something that can somehow be stopped.

Or act as though monoculturalism exists.

Has it helped your people?

Beyond any human measure.

Are things better and/or more cohesive/cooperative because of having multiculturalism?

Better, yes. Cohesive and cooperative? Well... That would fly right in the face of being better.

Has it affected your* culture?

No... I live on an island in the middle of nowhere and farm turtles. :rolleyes:

How?

It has brought new foods, musical styles, artwork, languages, customs, and ideas into my society. It has improved my life by bringing in scientists and artists from outside, and made me a better person by giving me a broader knowledge base to work from

*'your' in no way includes 'you'. 'You' have no equal representation. 'You' ought to leave your homeland because foreigners in 'your' nation are entitled to more rights than 'You'.

Bullshit.

Or act as though monoculturalism exists.

Well, apparently some people think Bush is competent too, so who's to say what counts as aberrant anymore?

I support freedom of cultural expression within the context of the law. Even so, the concept of "monoculturalism" is a joke because it has never existed; human beings have always been in contact with other groups of humans, from our ancient ancestors until the present.

Multicultralism helps every country out. What's wrong with it exactly?

Tread swiftly, up onto yon TROLL!
It is o.k. to flame the bejesus out of a TROLL, who doesnt believe the crap that you do, who's brain does not know the (un)holy touch of soap! Okay.....??
Voice your opines here.Opines?
Has it helped your people?Considerably.
Are things better and/or more cohesive/cooperative because of having multiculturalism?Yep.
Has it affected your* culture? Yeah...




*'your' in no way includes 'you'. 'You' have no equal representation. 'You' ought to leave your homeland because foreigners in 'your' nation are entitled to more rights than 'You'. The first two parts are true in America. :( That last isn't.

Bizarre. Multiculturualism is a universal fact of modern life. When you invite comments on its nature, your implication is that a better alternative exists. Can you elighten us as to its nature?

Thanks ever so.

Every nation is basically multicultural.

There are varying degrees, however. The difference in culture between England and Japan is much greater than the difference between London and Birmingham.

I remember being an oddity during my stay in Japan. In the United States, a Japanese person would not be looked at twice.

In America, the great diversity in culture-- both intercultural (between regions) and due to immigration and ethnic groups-- has definitely enhanced our entire outlook. We are the place where everything can be at home. I love the music, culture, even language that has been introduced.

Yet, all this mixing does seem to polarize people. Sort of clumps like people with like people. And so you see specific tables, with identical sorts of faces, in the lunchrooms.

I have a question then. Does multiculturalism do more to promote tolerance of different cultures, or more to separate people?

It has brought new foods, musical styles, artwork, languages, customs, and ideas into my society. It has improved my life by bringing in scientists and artists from outside, and made me a better person by giving me a broader knowledge base to work from

.

Exotic Foods, Music, and various Culture are fine. They must be taken voluntarily though! If one is interested, they may partake, but it cannot be compulsory or overwhelming like it will be in another decade in my home.

You'se a right, I AM paranoid, because I see a potential to loose the great heritage I grew up with. I can't stand for that! Would you?

Quote:
*'your' in no way includes 'you'. 'You' have no equal representation. 'You' ought to leave your homeland because foreigners in 'your' nation are entitled to more rights than 'You'.
Bullshit
It isn't bullshit!

Wait you until you see the US adopt the 'hate speech' laws. That is the finest example of minorities having more rights than the natural citizens.

whatever...fuck it. and fuck you while we're at it... you un's are haters, plain and simple.

Multiculturism is how we all go here. Cultures evolve as they come in contact with each other. Diversity brings richness.

There are varying degrees, however. The difference in culture between England and Japan is much greater than the difference between London and Birmingham.

I remember being an oddity during my stay in Japan. In the United States, a Japanese person would not be looked at twice.

In America, the great diversity in culture-- both intercultural (between regions) and due to immigration and ethnic groups-- has definitely enhanced our entire outlook. We are the place where everything can be at home. I love the music, culture, even language that has been introduced.

Yet, all this mixing does seem to polarize people. Sort of clumps like people with like people. And so you see specific tables, with identical sorts of faces, in the lunchrooms.

I have a question then. Does multiculturalism do more to promote tolerance of different cultures, or more to separate people?


I'm about the least patriotic person I know - but I'm extremely glad to live in a country of immegrants. I grew up next door to a korean boy who had a hispanic sister and white parents - I'm sitting in a room with items from tibet, china, bengal, mexico, greece, russia, india, egypt, turkey, germany, switzerland, and japan...I probably missed a few, too - that's not even counting the books I have that draw heavily from other cultures. I learned my religion (which is afro-brazilian) from a filipino/german - my boss is an indian man who lived in africa...he bought me (vegetarian) sushi for my birthday - I really can't think what my life would be like without extreme multiculturalism. I think it's an immensely positive thing.

Exotic Foods, Music, and various Culture are fine. They must be taken voluntarily though! If one is interested, they may partake, but it cannot be compulsory or overwhelming like it will be in another decade in my home.

You'se a right, I AM paranoid, because I see a potential to loose the great heritage I grew up with. I can't stand for that! Would you?

Meh. You'll grow out of it, I'm sure. Nothing you have is being destroyed. No one is forcing you to stop living the way you are. You can't force other people to live your way. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to say "Live my way."

Let's compromise: you live your way, and I live mine. That's what multi-culturalism is. I notice that you don't discuss science and intellectualism. Multi-culturalism has caused those to improve greatly.


It isn't bullshit!

Wait you until you see the US adopt the 'hate speech' laws. That is the finest example of minorities having more rights than the natural citizens.

whatever...fuck it. and fuck you while we're at it... you un's are haters, plain and simple.

So... You've avoided the gun smileys, but you've insulted multiple members of the forum while using an obviously contrived written accent. I give you about a 6 on the troll scale. Not bad, and you have some potential, but you have some distance to go until you measure up to Jesussaves, Ny Nordland, or HerPower.

And, IMO, hate speech laws are a violation of the constitution, and so you needn't worry about them.

And minorities are just as good as you, and a minority American is just as natural a citizen as yourself.

Vegan, I completely agree with you. Though my life has certainly not been enriched to the extent that yours has been, the person I am has been molded by the contact I have had with many different people, and thier cultures. I am particularly in love with Japan at the present.

I am simply thinking about things on this whole national scale, however. It seems that a lot of friction is generated by clashing communities. I only know about America though; is the US the only one to have such huge racial/ ethnic issues? Is it the most diverse? If on the whole, multiculturalism is so beneficial, then why does the country with the greatest amount of it have the worst relationships between cultures?

For the same reason you can have scholarships for minorities only, but you'd be hung, shot, and quartered if you suggested a 'white's only' one.

Actually, it's being done right now. The vast majority of NSG (a very, very liberal place) had no problem with it. So, there you are.

I'm of the opinion that all racial scholarships need to go away, because poverty is poverty whether you are white or black, and it is more important to offer college as a way out for any hard-working young adult who got a poor hand in life, economically speaking, than it is to go on a crusade against an injustice that is better solved by getting parents more involved in the Public Schools.

Actually, it's being done right now. The vast majority of NSG (a very, very liberal place) had no problem with it. So, there you are.

I'm of the opinion that all racial scholarships need to go away, because poverty is poverty whether you are white or black, and it is more important to offer college as a way out for any hard-working young adult who got a poor hand in life, economically speaking, than it is to go on a crusade against an injustice that is better solved by getting parents more involved in the Public Schools.

NSG? Not sure what that is, unless, (lightbulb) nation state games? I'm rather new. ::blush::

I completely agree with you. Rather than base help upon race-- which in itself is rather racially profiling-- help should be based upon socio-economic needs.

NSG? Not sure what that is, unless, (lightbulb) nation state games? I'm rather new. ::blush::


NSG= Nation States General

Actually, it's being done right now. The vast majority of NSG (a very, very liberal place) had no problem with it. So, there you are.

I'm of the opinion that all racial scholarships need to go away, because poverty is poverty whether you are white or black, and it is more important to offer college as a way out for any hard-working young adult who got a poor hand in life, economically speaking, than it is to go on a crusade against an injustice that is better solved by getting parents more involved in the Public Schools.

For me it's "meh"

It would be one thing if Tax funds were being used. Groups set them up so if they want to donate to a group, then what the hell.

Just like the stink over the white only grant. Sure it was racially motivated but you can't have the others if you block it.....

Wait you until you see the US adopt the 'hate speech' laws. That is the finest example of minorities having more rights than the natural citizens.

Not true. An Australian aborigine (for those not from Australia, they are the indigineous race we pissed off, not the slave race other countries shipped in, let free, then pissed off), was booked on Racial Vilification laws after she criticised a white person, using all the "You white $#@$" etc.

I think "hate speech" laws are foolish. It violates free speech and makes those hate speech people martyrs. They should be allowed to spew out their hate, and sane, lucid, well spoken people can compose good arguments against them.

You'se a right, I AM paranoid, because I see a potential to loose the great heritage I grew up with. I can't stand for that! Would you?

If we would kindly ignore the language abuses that happen when race/culture is discussed maybe I could bring up this interesting facet about multiculturalism.

Some background. I come from a multicultural country that has fought hard to maintain its diversity. I also happen to be an exchange student currently in America and I see the strains of what multiculturalism has done to this country.

I believe in multiculturalism and I love the capacity that humans have to understand and empathise with one another. I agree that multiculturalism is inevitable in the world today. But like its economic cousin- globalisation, I would hesitate before painting multiculturalism as a entirely positive thing.

You see, I've realised that we cannot equate multiculturalism with multi-races.

This might not be the argument that 'White Separatists' is looking for, but it is not the multi-race part that worries me. I am more concerned with how immigrants often are unable to assimilate into the host country.

Let me put it this way. I can totally see and understand when someone says that multiculturalism will change our existing heritage. As much as I agree that in multicultural America, Indian-Americans eating curry and teaching their children to play cricket can be as much American as anyone else, it would be naive to think that it would not impact the familiarity of the baseball playing, turkey-eating, blonde hair boy.

When he starts to eat sushi for lunch, though I applaud the cross-cultural references, I cannot help but feel that something is lost. I would miss that steak eating, OJ and pancakes for breakfast kid.

This gets even more interesting in my home country as we are facing a unique kind of discomfort with new immigrants. We are an immigrant society, yet the 'older immigrants' from various races have grown so comfortable with one another and created such a hybrid culture that we feel threatened not by people of a different skin colour but by new immigrants who are of the very same ethnicity from our previous donor countries. The influx of a large group of people with different 'culture' has given rise to a desperate attempt to identify ourselves as different.

Yes, we don't hate those people. But it really brings up 2 issues.

Multiculturalism is devoid of skin colour. So are its negative influences. So the next time someone says they support multiculturalism, please think again if your idea of multiculturalism is just being happy with that Asian-American next door who speaks just the way you do except for having rice as a staple diet or do you truly accept a new immigrant Korean who comes to your country and demands that dogs be eaten as a sign of respect for multicultural heritage. At the same time, if you think racial segregation is the way to go, think again about how threatened you really feel with someone who is a third-generation American and lives and does the exact things that other Americans do? Do we really need to use skin colour as an divisive marker to strengthen and find our own identity?

And the more disturbing question- so what about real multiculturalism? From this argument, almost all countries practice some sort of assimilation- maybe we as human communities aren't ready for the real existence of multi-culture.

If we are though, how do we prevent our cultures from becoming so intermixed that we don't have any unique cultures to speak of a few centuries down the road? Should we prevent something like that from occurring? Should we stop the Japanese boy from insisting that he only wants to eat Burgers and not Udon? Do we really want our grandchildren to be only able to see Kimonos in Museums?

I don't think the answer lies in isolationist policies. I also don't think that the mere appreciation of another culture or worse still an exotic idealised impression of another culture (as with much of love/hate for America (from overseas) and Japanese anime etc.) counts as truly accepting multiculturalism. But I do think we need to start asking ourselves what we are about to do with this merging of miscible and immiscible cultures.

Do we keep the uniqueness of us all or do we give it up in hopes of understanding each other better? Or is there a middle road? That is my question for multiculturalism.

Vegan, I completely agree with you. Though my life has certainly not been enriched to the extent that yours has been, the person I am has been molded by the contact I have had with many different people, and thier cultures. I am particularly in love with Japan at the present.

I am simply thinking about things on this whole national scale, however. It seems that a lot of friction is generated by clashing communities. I only know about America though; is the US the only one to have such huge racial/ ethnic issues? Is it the most diverse? If on the whole, multiculturalism is so beneficial, then why does the country with the greatest amount of it have the worst relationships between cultures?

I think that, sadly, the US is actually somewhat better than many places as far as race relations go. I went to school at little rock central high - the US army had to escort the first black students into my school under armed gaurd...because the state govenor had called the arkansas national gaurd out to keep 9 black kids from attending the white high school. now the school is majority black, actually, though I went to class with people from every racial background I know of. still, I've never met anyone who was violently racist...my brother is a bit pig-headed about islam but in general nobody in my family seems to have racial issues. as far as your question about it being the most diverse....I think india or places like london or toronto probably have large immegrant populations too - though the US easily takes the cake for sheer numbers...there's hardly such thing as an "american" - we still answer "english" or "german" or "italian" or whatever when asked our race - hardly anybody says american...I don't think there's any country in the world where nationality is so little tied to ethnic identity. maybe I'm wrong there, and there are obnoxious "conservatives" who certain disagree that we're a nation of immegrants...but as someone whose family has been here, at least more than 3/4 of my ancestors anyway, longer than the damn government has been, I feel quite confident in telling anti-immegrant folks to shut the fuck up. it annoys me to no end that there are people whose great grandparents got off a boat 100 years ago who think they have the right to tell people they have to "assimilate" into american culture. if south-central pennsylvania were to suddenly pick up and move to texas, the locals would complain we weren't american enough - the only american culture is a patchwork.

Multiculturalism is great. It creates diversity and cuts across class divisions. Also it helps to reduce the proliferation of trade union membership, since white working-class people don't tend to get along with or form groups with people of other races or cultures.

I support multiculturalism without it there would be no tea and *gasp* chicken tikka :eek:

As for the question that has sort of made its way into the thread people are pretty tolerant in Northampton unless there Kosovan in which case rumours always seem to spread (though it seems to be dying down now)

I support multiculturalism without it there would be no tea and *gasp* chicken tikka :eek:

As for the question that has sort of made its way into the thread people are pretty tolerant in Northampton unless there Kosovan in which case rumours always seem to spread (though it seems to be dying down now)

Multiculturalism created the taco. 'Nuff said. :)

I'm about the least patriotic person I know -
Oh here we go, another person who thinks that patriotism is the same thing as far-right nationalism.

Multiculturalism is great. It creates diversity and cuts across class divisions. Also it helps to reduce the proliferation of trade union membership, since white working-class people don't tend to get along with or form groups with people of other races or cultures.
This is a reason why multiculturalism can be problematic.

When he starts to eat sushi for lunch, though I applaud the cross-cultural references, I cannot help but feel that something is lost. I would miss that steak eating, OJ and pancakes for breakfast kid.

as far as I'm concerned (as a white male child of protestants, ethnically almost entirely from the UK, a "son of the american revolution" if I wanted to claim the status, which I never will) there's nothing to be lost if the turkey-eating baseball playing blond boy set ceased to exist. our ancestors moved to this continent with a culture of purantical asceticism at worst, and quiet, virtuous simplicity at best. quaker and puritan furnature is known for being sturdy, and not much else. their clothes are black, white, and grey. they deliberately denuded themselves of culture. when we think of the first european immegrants to america we think largely of strict protestants who frowned on ornamentation, complex music, overly flavourful food, or remotely colorful or ostentious clothing. these puritans and "plain folk", as they're called in the areas where they've survived, willingly whitewashed thier cultural heritage in exchange for the modesty and simplicity they perceived as virtues. american culture by and large has since disposed entirely of those virtures...from the nearly blank slate of a religious-virtue based cultural inherited by agnostics, almost everything that makes american culture "american" has been imported. the statue of liberty is from france, for chrissake - hamburgers, hotdogs, pizza, nachos...all imported foods - blue jeans started as simple work clothes...in the way of american culture - CULTURE, like high art, architecture, music, festivals, and the like - almost none of it is *american* in its origins - there's nothing to loose in the first place. even the peculiarities of american christianity are nothing but echoes of swiss and scottish ideas. I mean, there are countries where how you tie your turban tells total strangers what town you're from - here it's entirely possible to walk into identical stores with people wearing exactly the same factory-produced clothing, speaking with the same television-homogenised accents on the same mass-produced (imported) cell phones about how they have to get to the same massive national chain stores to buy identical products...the few parts of the country that *do* have distinctly american culture - like the deep south, appalachia, pennsylvania deutch country, alaska, and the western deserts - are being choked out by consumer culture, which is so homogenous and neutral it's hardly any culture at all. immegrant influences are not the problem - the only threat to any distinctly american culture comes from the mass-produced consumer society america created in the first place...and anymore that's not even distinctly american.

It made the US the country that it is today. American culture is a mishmash of the cultures if immigrants from centuries of immigration. The food that we eat, the customs and traditions that we observe, even the richness of our language shows the various cultures that combined into the US that is today.

Other cultures show the same, even 'pure' cultures like Japan shows many traditional arts that came from other shores and were adopted enthusiastically.

I see no 'dumbing down' or loss of something special by multiculturalism. What tends to disappear are the ideas and customs that were slowly dying out anyway. Yeah, no one wears kimono in Japan unless it's for a special event, but that does not mean that Japan is losing its culture any more than America is losing its culture because the majority of Americans no longer farm.

It amuses me that people like the OP act as though multiculturalism is something that can somehow be stopped.

It's possible....

Multiculturalism has revealed that a number of the older generation of my nation are intolerant, racist, bigots. They're afraid of people 'taking our jobs' (see South Park, Goobacks episode). In actual fact, foreign workers are taking all the worst jobs so that the average person can sit back and relax even more.

OP is called White Separatists...I doubt he/she/it actually wants to have a rational and informed debate over what he/she/it terms "multiculturalism".


He/she/it is just a racist.

Tread swiftly, up onto yon TROLL!
It is o.k. to flame the bejesus out of a TROLL, who doesnt believe the crap that you do, who's brain does not know the (un)holy touch of soap!

Voice your opines here.


Has it helped your people?

Are things better and/or more cohesive/cooperative because of having multiculturalism?

Has it affected your* culture?

How?

Feel free to add questions on the Query of 'Multiculturalism'

and revisit old responses.


Jesus Christ boys... we got a racist here.

I'm British and all we ever hear over here is politically correct politicians droning on and on about how multiculturalism has ade society so wonderful. I think it's one of those things that is repeated over and over again to the point that a lot of people don't properly question wether multiculturalism is a good thing, they come out with the usual generic answer about how its created such a 'vibrant society'.The only changes I see being made in this country are negative ones - ethnic enclaves popping up, islamist hate preachers talking about how the majority of the people in this country are scum. It's gotten to the point where voicing opposition to immigration and multiculturalism is seen as bad as saying we should be warming up the crematoriums.

I can't see how multiculturalism has improved my life one bit. So I definitely wouldn't mourn being rid of it.

I think it depends how you define multiculturalism.

I see immigration as being almost entirely beneficial for the destination country (although I do have some concerns about the effects on the countries of origin). Immigrants, by and large, benefit the economy, bring decent food and new types of music. Overall their contribution is overwhelmingly positive.

However, the term 'multiculturalism', to my mind, doesn't mean immigration. It means multiple cultures existing alongside one another, but not amongst each other. It means the sort of self imposed segregation and ghetto-isation the results* of which make the news, here in the UK, from time to time and which, ultimately, negates the beneficial aspects mentioned above.

That said, ending immigration and 'sending 'em all back' is would just make the situation, on a global scale, worse, IMO.


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham_Riots#Long_term_causes

I'm British and all we ever hear over here is politically correct politicians droning on and on about how multiculturalism has ade society so wonderful. I think it's one of those things that is repeated over and over again to the point that a lot of people don't properly question wether multiculturalism is a good thing, they come out with the usual generic answer about how its created such a 'vibrant society'.The only changes I see being made in this country are negative ones - ethnic enclaves popping up, islamist hate preachers talking about how the majority of the people in this country are scum. It's gotten to the point where voicing opposition to immigration and multiculturalism is seen as bad as saying we should be warming up the crematoriums.

I can't see how multiculturalism has improved my life one bit. So I definitely wouldn't mourn being rid of it.

I hate it when people talk about immigration and multiculturalism and say things like 'political-correctness gone mad'.

You have to understand that it just sounds like racism: immigration and multiculturalism only benefit our society in terms of boosting the economy and modernising our culture to create a just, multi-ethnic, multi-faceted society. What makes me sad is that you can pinpoint who the problem is for you because they are brown-skinned. If it were white catholic preachers saying things you disagreed with coming from Ireland you wouldn't be saying the same things.....

Jesus Christ boys... we got a racist here.

No, really? What gave him away?:rolleyes:

Multiculturalism is great when it's natural interaction. Affirmative action, on the otherhand...

I love how the WPers accuse cultiral/ehtnic differences for causing social problems, and not the bastard politicians they themselves elect to prevent social problems.

But I guess it's easier to consider some demographcs "bad", than it is to admit the people you elect aren't doing their jobs.

I hate it when people talk about immigration and multiculturalism and say things like 'political-correctness gone mad'.

You have to understand that it just sounds like racism: immigration and multiculturalism only benefit our society in terms of boosting the economy and modernising our culture to create a just, multi-ethnic, multi-faceted society. What makes me sad is that you can pinpoint who the problem is for you because they are brown-skinned. If it were white catholic preachers saying things you disagreed with coming from Ireland you wouldn't be saying the same things.....
The reason I don't have anything against the catholic priests is because they don't go around preaching how everybody else is scum and how we're all legitimate targets for attacks. If a bunch of Irish catholic priests were saying the same sort of thing I'd want rid of them just the same. It's so typical, people like you always use racism as a way of shouting down debate.

I just don't see how multiculturalism has improved things for me. Why should I pretend to like something that I haven't seen bring anything positive to society?

Multiculturalism has revealed that a number of the older generation of my nation are intolerant, racist, bigots. They're afraid of people 'taking our jobs' (see South Park, Goobacks episode). In actual fact, foreign workers are taking all the worst jobs so that the average person can sit back and relax even more.

The problem is that nobody gets paid for sitting back and relaxing. There are people in trailer parks and ghettos right now who are sitting back and relaxing themselves to death. They'd love to have a job mowing a lawn or something, but it's just cheaper to hire an illegal alien to do that job. That's why we need to crack down on illegal immigration and on those who hire illegals and then we can allow more legal immigration because legal workers compete on an even playing field for jobs and can't be exploited as easily as illegals.

Hmmm?

My wife is Italian. I am 2nd Generation American(Polish).

Does that make our daughter multicultural? ;)

The reason I don't have anything against the catholic priests is because they don't go around preaching how everybody else is scum and how we're all legitimate targets for attacks. If a bunch of Irish catholic priests were saying the same sort of thing I'd want rid of them just the same. It's so typical, people like you always use racism as a way of shouting down debate.

I just don't see how multiculturalism has improved things for me. Why should I pretend to like something that I haven't seen bring anything positive to society?

People like me? Bad rhetoric....

I'm not shouting down debate I'm saying that this is a totally ridiculous argument that, I feel, as a 2nd generation immigrant from Eastern Europe is unfair and unjust. I contribute to society; I pay tax, Whilst English is, of course, my first language I speak some of my own language and bring the flavour of my country to this country. My girlfriend is black, her parents were both born in Jamaica and are both hard-working and intelligent people - her mother is a midwife - who contribute to society. She is a budding playwright...Just one example of what I see as the positives that people like me, my parents and others bring to this vibrant and exciting cultural mix: although I am from London, which I feel to be one of the best examples of multiculturalism as a success.

As to those very very very few Muslim Preachers who do preach that kind of thing, I think they should be tried for inciting hatred/violence and breach of the peace not just kicked out to 'make our country easier to live in for the white man'

Do YOU think that Nick Griffin and the BNP who advocate violence against Muslims/Jews/Blacks should aslso be kicked out or are they Ok because they're white?

The reason I don't have anything against the catholic priests is because they don't go around preaching how everybody else is scum and how we're all legitimate targets for attacks. If a bunch of Irish catholic priests were saying the same sort of thing I'd want rid of them just the same. It's so typical, people like you always use racism as a way of shouting down debate.

I just don't see how multiculturalism has improved things for me. Why should I pretend to like something that I haven't seen bring anything positive to society?

As a whole? No. There are groups and individuals that do. Priests for Life took potshots at Michael Schiavo. Calling him a murderer. Suggesting he attacked his wife.....

What makes me sad is that you can pinpoint who the problem is for you because they are brown-skinned.
He didn't refer to any skin colour, or even imply racism. So I hope you don't mind if I point out your bullshit.


As to those very very very few Muslim Preachers who do preach that kind of thing, I think they should be tried for inciting hatred/violence and breach of the peace not just kicked out to 'make our country easier to live in for the white man'
It's true that the radicals are a minority, but you're still shouting "racist!"

It's about making life easier for women, gays, Buddhists, Christians and everyone who isn't a reactionary fundamentalist Muslim. It's not about kicking out people from Sindh.

Exotic Foods, Music, and various Culture are fine. They must be taken voluntarily though! If one is interested, they may partake, but it cannot be compulsory or overwhelming like it will be in another decade in my home.

Oh, right, because "they" (the Jews) are going to compel (force at gunpoint) you and your family to 'partake' (observe) undesirable (non-white) cultures (races). The existence of non-whites in "your home" (by which you mean, the public) proves to you the conspiracy.

I hope you don't mind if I just point and laugh instead of treating you like an adult.

You'se a right, I AM paranoid, because I see a potential to loose the great heritage I grew up with.

A+B = A no longer exists?

Ha.

Yes, you ARE paranoid, and you should seek help. That is, if you can withstand the horrible onslaught of non-white faces on the road to the psychiatrist's.

Wait you until you see the US adopt the 'hate speech' laws. That is the finest example of minorities having more rights than the natural citizens.

Minorities ARE natural citizens. So there goes one part of your little conspiracy. Please ignore this gaping hole in your paranoid logic so you don't have to examine your own mental health.

whatever...fuck it. and fuck you while we're at it... you un's are haters, plain and simple.

Ahhh. When your arguments collapse miserably, you just have to spew hatred and flame people. "Fuck you... you're haters." Beautiful hypocrisy, did you fashion that yourself?

He didn't refer to any skin colour, or even imply racism. So I hope you don't mind if I point out your bullshit.

He referred to ethnic enclaves popping up and 'talking about immigration'. I don't mind talking about immigration but his point was this: nothing positive has come from multiculturalism. What I said was that it 'sounded' like racism and he came back with a remark that included the term 'you people'. The point about pinpointing because of the brown-skin comes from the fact that he leapt straight onto muslims and 'ethnics' as part of a our multicultural society, rather than considering the many, many, many different ethnically white cultures that this country encompasses. As I asked him, does he feel the same anger about the BNP and the National Front? If he does then he's clearly not a racist.

I wasn't shouting 'racist' I was saying that anti-immigration rhetoric when backed up by examples only focusing on one specific people, based on the premise that 'nothing positive has come from multiculturalism' sounds like racism. And I think that's true.


It's about making life easier for women, gays, Buddhists, Christians and everyone who isn't a reactionary fundamentalist Muslim. It's not about kicking out people from Sindh.

:confused: This is just confusing. What is your point here? I agree with the sentiment. Are you defending/attacking his kick 'em out argument?

Multiculturalism created the taco. 'Nuff said. :)

Amen!

Multiculturalism is great when it's natural interaction. Affirmative action, on the otherhand...

Agreed.

As to those very very very few Muslim Preachers who do preach that kind of thing, I think they should be tried for inciting hatred/violence and breach of the peace not just kicked out to 'make our country easier to live in for the white man'

Do YOU think that Nick Griffin and the BNP who advocate violence against Muslims/Jews/Blacks should aslso be kicked out or are they Ok because they're white?
The trouble with the BNP is that you can't really send them anywhere else. And as much as I dislike them, it has to be said that they don't actually incite violence because they would be arrested for it (Unlike a lot of fundamentalist preachers) They're citizens of this country and nobody else would take them. A lot of the fundamentalist preachers have citizenship in places like Egypt and Syria, and some of them are even fugitives in their home countries. So there's always somewhere to send them to.

Foreign citizens aren't entitled to all the rights of citizens, not here and not in any other country. That's why we theoretically deport foreign criminals after their sentence. Unless you want to keep every dangerous foreign criminal here just because they managed to sneak in.

He referred to and 'talking about immigration'. I don't mind talking about immigration but his point was this: nothing positive has come from multiculturalism. What I said was that it 'sounded' like racism and he came back with a remark that included the term 'you people'. The point about pinpointing because of the brown-skin comes from the fact that he leapt straight onto muslims and 'ethnics' as part of a our multicultural society, rather than considering the many, many, many different ethnically white cultures that this country encompasses. As I asked him, does he feel the same anger about the BNP and the National Front? If he does then he's clearly not a racist.

I wasn't shouting 'racist' I was saying that anti-immigration rhetoric when backed up by examples only focusing on one specific people, based on the premise that 'nothing positive has come from multiculturalism' sounds like racism. And I think that's true.




:confused: This is just confusing. What is your point here? I agree with the sentiment. Are you defending/attacking his kick 'em out argument?
The 'you people' comment was aimed at politically correct left wingers. Bear in mind that I posted it before I even knew you were of Eastern European descent. And it's pretty clear that you're screaming racism. Being against multiculturalism doesn't make a person a racist at all. The reason I'm against multiculturalism is because it's divisive - it encourages people to stick in their own ghettos and not get involved in wider society. It also changes the cultural landscape of the country, something which I don't like. I think we would be better served by a more assimilationist policy. It's people like you who throw 'racism' around that push people into supporting the BNP. When debate is stifled the extremists thrive.

Being against multiculturalism doesn't make a person a racist at all.

Hmm, no, but the name "White Separatists" might be a mighty strong clue.

The reason I'm against multiculturalism is because it's divisive - it encourages people to stick in their own ghettos and not get involved in wider society.

Well that's odd, since "White Separatists" is also divisive and as you might guess, wants people to stick in their own ghettos. And he is against multiculturalism.

So maybe, ghettos has nothing to do with multiculturalism and is actually more of an economic term which you have hijacked to denegrate the concept of anything less than a rainbow society.

It's people like you who throw 'racism' around that push people into supporting the BNP. When debate is stifled the extremists thrive.

Ah, right. By calling a racist, a racist, we are stifling debate. But when that racist - White Separatists, just says "Whatever. Fuck you," as he has in this thread, apparently he's doing his best to combat divisiveness.

Ha.

<snip>
Well there's no argument that the OP is a racist. But I was talking about multiculturalism overall, not the OP. I was saying that he was stifling debate for calling me a racist simply for being against multiculturalism. That's stifling debate.

Well there's no argument that the OP is a racist. But I was talking about multiculturalism overall, not the OP.

Ah, but the post you quoted (by Losing It Big Time) was regarding the OP. So it looked to me like you were continuing the argument (made by The Pacifist Womble) that the OP wasn't a racist.

I was saying that he was stifling debate for calling me a racist simply for being against multiculturalism. That's stifling debate.

I guess it is, but I still maintain that a lot of this "anti multiculturalism" sentiment is leaped upon by racists specifically because racism is about fear and hatred of other "cultures" (i.e, races or ethnicities). The main fear expressed by such people regarding multiculturalism is that their "culture" will be destroyed by the introduction of or even existence of other cultures.

For me, the first time I ever heard the term "multiculturalism" was from racists going on about this fear. And most of the time on this and a couple other forums, it's people who are extremist who rant against multiculturalism.

Again, one doesn't necessitate the other - there are indeed racists who support multiculturalism as well, and being against multiculturalism doesn't require racism - but the correlation is hard to deny.

The trouble with the BNP is that you can't really send them anywhere else. And as much as I dislike them, it has to be said that they don't actually incite violence because they would be arrested for it (Unlike a lot of fundamentalist preachers) They're citizens of this country and nobody else would take them. A lot of the fundamentalist preachers have citizenship in places like Egypt and Syria, and some of them are even fugitives in their home countries. So there's always somewhere to send them to.

But many of them have citizenship here. So there 'ours' just as much as the BNP are 'ours'. I wasn't saying you ARE racist, I was saying that I find this anti-multiculturalism and continued reference to political correctness (something which is bollocks all the way, being politically correct does not apply here) argument to be steeped in casual racism. It's not hard to make that connection. I don't like radical Islamist preachers as much as you but I like the fact that I have Muslim, Catholic, Hindu, White, Black, Yellow, whatever, friends, aquaintances, music, food etc to call a part of my country. If you don't like that/feel there is nothing positive in it then I can't help but slightly align you with White Seperatists and his ilk. Sorry.

The 'you people' comment was aimed at politically correct left wingers. Bear in mind that I posted it before I even knew you were of Eastern European descent. And it's pretty clear that you're screaming racism. Being against multiculturalism doesn't make a person a racist at all. The reason I'm against multiculturalism is because it's divisive - it encourages people to stick in their own ghettos and not get involved in wider society. It also changes the cultural landscape of the country, something which I don't like. I think we would be better served by a more assimilationist policy. It's people like you who throw 'racism' around that push people into supporting the BNP. When debate is stifled the extremists thrive.

I hadn't taken the 'you people' comment as anything but an attack on "politically correct left-wingers." It was just an awful turn of phrase. Surely the essence of multi-culturalism is that it is NOT devisive. It is accepting of the fact that people of one culture and people of another can live together within one culture melting pot. If that means that the Hasidic Jews live in sector A and the Secular Jews live in Sector B then it's fine with me. The best thing about living in London is the fact that almost half the city are from non-white ethnic backgrounds - it leads to a vibrant and exciting society as far as I'm concerned.

The fact actually remains that beyond London and the other major cities we don't live in a very multi-cultural society:

In 2001 the national census tells us the population was: 58,789,194 and out of that 7/10 were white christians. On top of that somewhere between 87.5% and 91% of the country are White British. Not the most multicultural society in the world then....by the way what part of Britain are you from?

But many of them have citizenship here. So there 'ours' just as much as the BNP are 'ours'. I wasn't saying you ARE racist, I was saying that I find this anti-multiculturalism and continued reference to political correctness (something which is bollocks all the way, being politically correct does not apply here) argument to be steeped in casual racism. It's not hard to make that connection. I don't like radical Islamist preachers as much as you but I like the fact that I have Muslim, Catholic, Hindu, White, Black, Yellow, whatever, friends, aquaintances, music, food etc to call a part of my country. If you don't like that/feel there is nothing positive in it then I can't help but slightly align you with White Seperatists and his ilk. Sorry.
Just because I don't see multiculturalism as a positive doesn't mean I hate those of other cultures. I don't really see why it's so great to have muslim, catholic, hindu, ect. friends. It's perfectly alright if you have these people as friends, but it's pretty much irrelevant to me. As far as individual relationships go, all this cultural baggage means nothing to me.

I hadn't taken the 'you people' comment as anything but an attack on "politically correct left-wingers." It was just an awful turn of phrase. Surely the essence of multi-culturalism is that it is NOT devisive. It is accepting of the fact that people of one culture and people of another can live together within one culture melting pot. If that means that the Hasidic Jews live in sector A and the Secular Jews live in Sector B then it's fine with me. The best thing about living in London is the fact that almost half the city are from non-white ethnic backgrounds - it leads to a vibrant and exciting society as far as I'm concerned.
The theories of multiculturalism and the realities of it are quite different. And in my expiences, excitment isn't a good thing. I think things work out much better and more peaceful when society just ticks along the same as ever without anything being shaken up.

....by the way what part of Britain are you from?
British Antractic Territory, er.... actually Leeds.

The fact actually remains that beyond London and the other major cities we don't live in a very multi-cultural society:

In 2001 the national census tells us the population was: 58,789,194 and out of that 7/10 were white christians. On top of that somewhere between 87.5% and 91% of the country are White British. Not the most multicultural society in the world then....by the way what part of Britain are you from?

The 'white' sterotype isn't a very acurate discription of culture. There are many cultures that are 'white'-- Eastern European, American-whites, English, French, Irish, Scandanavian, etc etc. So just because 7 out of 10 are white that doesn't mean it implies a lack of multiculturism.

The 'white' sterotype isn't a very acurate discription of culture. There are many cultures that are 'white'-- Eastern European, American-whites, English, French, Irish, Scandanavian, etc etc. So just because 7 out of 10 are white that doesn't mean it implies a lack of multiculturism.

But it's British White that is the distinction. In that census they had white British, white Irish and White Other. The White British was, as I say, 87 percent of the population:

First detailed results on ethnicity and religion from the 2001 Census reveal that 87.5 per cent of the population of England and Wales (seven out of eight people) gave their ethnic group as White British.

Multiculturism is how we all go here. Cultures evolve as they come in contact with each other. Diversity brings richness.

You, sir, are an Orwellian parody. All of you are. Step back and look at yourselves. Is it odd that your responses are almost identical, right down to the little phrases like the above? It's like something out of Southpark. "Bovril is strength!!!"

As for the original post, it is quite obvious that the question is meaningless unless the asker defines the word, because I have reason to believe that the OP's interpretation of the word "Multiculturalism" differs considerably from most of the responders'. Were the discussion re-framed by being placed in this new context, it might be more worthwhile.

Just because I don't see multiculturalism as a positive doesn't mean I hate those of other cultures. I don't really see why it's so great to have muslim, catholic, hindu, ect. friends. It's perfectly alright if you have these people as friends, but it's pretty much irrelevant to me. As far as individual relationships go, all this cultural baggage means nothing to me.

Ok. That's alright because on that basis you are not AGAINST multiculturalism and that's a very different position to the OP.



British Antractic Territory, er.... actually Leeds.

See I thought Leeds was a very multi-cultural city. Ho hum. Maybe I was wrong.:(

You, sir, are an Orwellian parody. All of you are.

Sure. Everyone here is, except you. It must be a burden being so unqiue and misunderstood by the idiot masses. How do you put up with it?

Ok. That's alright because on that basis you are not AGAINST multiculturalism and that's a very different position to the OP.
I am actually against multiculturalism, being against multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to hate those of other cultures. I just think that the government would be more wise to pursue assimilation as a way of reducing divisions in society.

See I thought Leeds was a very multi-cultural city. Ho hum. Maybe I was wrong.:(
Oh Leeds is multicultural. I just don't like what multiculturalism has done. Though I'll admit that the divisions are much worse in other towns nearby.

i would be so bored without multi-culturalism. my favourite foods are thai, north african and eastern mediterranean; my favourite band at the moment is made up of eastern european immigrants doing sort of punk with gypsy music influences; my favourite strong liquor is from the carribean; my favourite wines are generally from south america; the girl i'm working my way to asking out is turkish; i may well end up living in cyprus in the not too distant future.

i can honestly say that without multi-culturalism my horizons would be severely narrowed and, coming from a small island, my horizons have been something i've been consistently trying to broaden all my life. that someone should wish to restrict the potential for my horizons to broaden perplexes me.

I am actually against multiculturalism, being against multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to hate those of other cultures. I just think that the government would be more wise to pursue assimilation as a way of reducing divisions in society.

Like France!? Where they force every successful immigrant to be 'French'? Where they have one of the most ethnically and religiously divided countries in the world? Just look at the young black Frenchmen of African origin in La Haine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/)and the real life riots (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm) to understand that forced assimilation does not work.

Like France!? Where they force every successful immigrant to be 'French'? Where they have one of the most ethnically and religiously divided countries in the world? Just look at the young black Frenchmen of African origin in La Haine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/)and the real life riots (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm) to understand that forced assimilation does not work.
Just because France can't get assimilation right doesn't mean it should be given up on. Yes, France's assimilationist policy hasn't been successful. But that doesn't mean that multiculturalism is going to create a utopia of social harmony. The Dutch have always gone for multiculturalism and look how far that's got them.

Just because France can't get assimilation right doesn't mean it should be given up on. Yes, France's assimilationist policy hasn't been successful. But that doesn't mean that multiculturalism is going to create a utopia of social harmony. The Dutch have always gone for multiculturalism and look how far that's got them.

The Dutch model shot litself in the foot. It wasn't multiculturalism that has screwed them completely it was laissez-faire multiculturalism. They were saying to people "welcome" then not doing anything to help communities accept immigration; as such they bred radical islamists and neo-nazis in one quick swoop.

We have not done that to the same degree in this country because immigrants have, until recently, been (reluctantly, sadly enough) accepted but there has been a knowlege that they will need help to settle and adapt and that there should be a joint effort on BOTH sides. In Holland they were very silly and now they are totally changing their immigration policy...

I think we need a balance of the two. Immigrants should be forced to assimilate in the sense that they need to: A.) learn the language and B.) conform to their host's laws, as well as leaving the more regressive aspects of their culture back home. Immigrants should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want, speak whatever language they want, where whatever clothes they want(provided its not in conflict with B), and generally do whatever they want as long as its legal.

I think we need a balance of the two. Immigrants should be forced to assimilate in the sense that they need to: A.) learn the language and B.) conform to their host's laws, as well as leaving the more regressive aspects of their culture back home. Immigrants should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want, speak whatever language they want, where whatever clothes they want(provided its not in conflict with B), and generally do whatever they want as long as its legal.

I'll agree with that Penguin if you will?

Sure. Everyone here is, except you. It must be a burden being so unqiue and misunderstood by the idiot masses. How do you put up with it?

Yes! Finally someone who gets it, who basks in the glory of my magnificence as all should rightly do!:p

In all fairness, it was not I that was spouting pre-recorded propaganda lines without properly defending the arguments those lines make.