NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Conscript everybody to the army :D

Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.

Sovietstan is a Muslim?!

Sovietstan is a Muslim?!

maybe. as long as its stylish.

If the West is as homogenous and as weak as you say, the problem will correct itself when the rest of the world eats us.

Pfft, if Allah wants me to change my ways he knows where to find my pineal gland.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

You should correct "it seems most in the west are empty" to "it seems to me that most in the west are empty."

Part of me wants to resent your gross generalization of the state of "the west" and part of me just wants to shake my head at yet another "Islam is wonderful" thread from someone who just converted within the last month.

I'm happy you have found enlightenment and peace. Please do not insult me by calling everyone who does not agree with your new-found way empty, decadent, without purpose, and suicidally depressed. If I could fix the program I'm working on, I'd be the happiest person in the world.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

What else is there to fill with but "things" that make you happy? If sex, drugs and shopping makes people happy, you have no high ground to proclaim them as "vapid". I can equally say that you fill you life with bile and hatred of happiness at the hands of your religion. You're under the false illusion that your religion has granted you greater fulfillment than my life of sexual deviancy etc.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

And believing in some higher power will suddenly make us fuller and better people, yes?

Bollocks.

There's nothing wrong with 'sexual deviancy and nudity' and definitely nothing wrong with materialism. I'd rather live in a community that generally accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity, than one that shuns and indeed condemns it - considering that, you have the belligerance to declare your religion as the better way of life?

The great thing about the west is that we are able to live our lives freely (for the most part). It's great to live in a place where I am free to watch smut and violence or turn it off if it offends me. I can also worship in the religion I see fit (or not worship at all for that matter).

I agree in part. The vacuousity of Western culture, or, rather Anglo-American culture, is due to stagnation and multiculturalism. However, I would dispute quite whether sexual promiscuity equates to vacuosity.

I'll take my sexual deviancy over your imaginary being, thanks. I have the feeling that whatever "full life" you envision to counter the empty, secular, materialistic life I supposedly have is a life I would despise.

If "material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity" stop people from becoming suicide bombers, I'm all in favour.

I'd say the West (and the world in general) are moving away from a materialistic culture and one based on experiences. For that reason I have no need of either God or material possesions. What I want is experience

I'd say the West (and the world in general) are moving away from a materialistic culture and one based on experiences. For that reason I have no need of either God or material possesions. What I want is experience

Hence why Paris Hilton constitutes every middle class girls icon.....

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Ugg so many things that hurt my head

You of course know that in the Western World they don't have the fun kind of prostitution that is unique to the Muslim world (and predominantly in the Shia sections of the muslim map)

But she isn't a prosititute she is just a woman you marry for the complete duration of a sex act.

Every culture has its vices and every culture has ways to hide them

Hence why Paris Hilton constitutes every middle class girls icon.....

Sorry I should have clarified that it was an opinion in general. As for the paris hilton thing. Not with the middle class girls I know

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

That was pretty stupid. :)

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

We could do it the religious way and behead all who disagree with your archaic concept of morality.

Ugg so many things that hurt my head

You of course know that in the Western World they don't have the fun kind of prostitution that is unique to the Muslim world (and predominantly in the Shia sections of the muslim map)

But she isn't a prosititute she is just a woman you marry for the complete duration of a sex act.

Every culture has its vices and every culture has ways to hide them

Actually the Muslims in Afghanistan have it the best. They get to "adopt" young boys and have sex with them all they want. :)

Sorry I should have clarified that it was an opinion in general. As for the paris hilton thing. Not with the middle class girls I know

However, you must concede that her, and her kind of vacuous, unaccomplished trollops, are what midle and lower class girls grow up with as icons in their vacuous little magazines.

However, you must concede that her, and her kind of vacuous, unaccomplished trollops, are what midle and lower class girls grow up with as icons in their vacuous little magazines.

I did say it was moving away not that it had already moved on. In my experience as people become more mature they see the Paris Hilton type for what they are. It is just in my experience though. I'll concede that

Sovietstan is a Muslim?!

Yes, it explains his frequent "kill all the J00z" posts.

If "material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity" stop people from becoming suicide bombers, I'm all in favour.

They're suicide bombers because they don't have any of the above.

Life would suck if all the women on the street were covered in a black cloth that covered everything including their eyes.

Are you kidding Sovie? We've got the vital liquids, and that's where strength is. Coffee in the morning, booze in the evening, the natural way of things.

Are you kidding Sovie? We've got the vital liquids, and that's where strength is. Coffee in the morning, booze in the evening, the natural way of things.

Not to mention Latinum:D

Oops, that's in the Star Trek universe, my bad.

They're suicide bombers because they don't have any of the above.

My point exactly. The only way they can "get their kicks" is to go to war. I say give the middle-east lots of good movies, music and video games.

I see your materialism and raise you an all out greed. I wouldn't characterize it as emptiness more like angst. A general feeling that something is not quite right or it could be perfectly normal paranoia.

My point exactly. The only way they can "get their kicks" is to go to war. I say give the middle-east lots of good movies, music and video games.

There's a very good reason that the western world, where great power war and imperialism were once the norm, has become increasingly peaceful as we've become increasingly materialist and wealty.

There's a very good reason that the western world, where great power war and imperialism were once the norm, has become increasingly peaceful as we've become increasingly materialist and wealty.

I don't think that's the reason at all. It has more to do with increased global trade and democracy.

Until fairly recently, wealth, if anything, meant more military power to exert around the world, and it was exerted regularly.

The problem with the west it that it's behind the times. For example, right now it's already tomorrow in Japan and China!

The west should move it's time 24 hours ahead, those in the east will complain, but who cares about them?

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

is that really such a bad thing? after all, look at africa. since there is no suicide, ppl are starving.

The problem with the west it that it's behind the times. For example, right now it's already tomorrow in Japan and China!

The west should move it's time 24 hours ahead, those in the east will complain, but who cares about them?

I certainly don't! *sets clock ahead*

*is late for work*

Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.

I don't need your god to live a life with purpose. It's nonsense like this that gives organized religion such a bad name.

Flying Spag....'eh why bother?

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

I agree that we are living in a material and unfulfilling society. There is a problem though; we can't change it. The reason why? It would completly destroy our society. We get rid of materialism, then we get rid of capitalism and thus our entire economic structure. If we want to stop other things such as sexual deviancy and what not, we'd have to change our constitution and laws in order to take away freedoms to do such things. So really, the thing we CAN do as peopl of faith, you being Moslem and I being a Christian, is that we can pray that God will send a conviction among the people to change.

Soviestan, you are so wrong. What you see as emptiness, is a breathtaking range of choices. Our civilization provides no direction - because we choose to allow ALL directions. Our strength lies in a diversity of thought and belief so vast as to be uncountable. We allow no man or god to dictate to us - so that all gods and men are welcome.

And if we are so afraid to fight, why are our people standing guard at the 38th parallel, building hospitals and community centres in Afghanistan and fighting the insurgency in Iraq?

Ours is not a perfect society. But the west has a superior culture and society to anyone else on this rock.

Sometimes I like to go through these kinds of threads to see if the OP ever comes back.

Sometimes I like to go through these kinds of threads to see if the OP ever comes back.

Soviestan sometimes does.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
Viewpoint, laddie. It's all about the viewpoint.

As for Allah, he, Iehovah, and YHWH can all kiss my big fat ass.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

If Islam is so much better, how come all the regions dominated by Islam are the hellholes of the world? I am not just referring to the Middle East either.

What's the deal with people converting to islam anyway? It's like promising never to have fun ever again.

No wonder those people are so angry.

Soviestan, you are so wrong. What you see as emptiness, is a breathtaking range of choices. Our civilization provides no direction - because we choose to allow ALL directions. Our strength lies in a diversity of thought and belief so vast as to be uncountable. We allow no man or god to dictate to us - so that all gods and men are welcome.

And if we are so afraid to fight, why are our people standing guard at the 38th parallel, building hospitals and community centres in Afghanistan and fighting the insurgency in Iraq?

Ours is not a perfect society. But the west has a superior culture and society to anyone else on this rock.

I don't often post hump, but well put. ;)

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
There's a huge implicit value judgement, there. Wy not make it explicit?

You think our behaviour is immoral. Before I'll accept that, you'll need to demonstrate it.

You think our suicide rates are a bad thing. Before I'll accept that, you'll need to demonstrate it.

I will accept that the west's general unwillingness to defend the values it holds dear are a problem, but that might just suggest that ithas no values. That it doesn't value its sexual deviance and immorality.

And perhaps it doesn't. The United States seems somewhat ashamed of its libertine society. Other western nations (Europe, Australia, Canada) would, I think, fight to protect their freedom to be immoral. But so far no one's tried to take it away from us.

THIS IS THE ISLAM THAT SOVIESTAN THINKS IS BETTER THAN OUR WESTERN WAY OF LIFE!

And a declaration should be made from Allah and His Messenger to these people on the day of the great Hajj that Allah is free from [all] obligations to these Idolaters and so is His Messenger. So if you [O Idolaters!] repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape from the grasp of Allah. And give tidings [O Muhammad (sws)] of a painful torment to these disbelievers. Except those of these Idolaters with whom you have a treaty, and who have not shown treachery in it nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to the end of their term. Indeed, Allah loves those who abide by the limits. Then when the sacred months [after the Hajj] have passed, kill these Idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and establish the prayer, and give Zakah, then leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is Ever Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:3-5)

Fight those who believe not in Allah or the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and are subdued. (9:29)

Of course there are verses in the Koran that preach leving infidels alone if htey wish to remain neutral, but these verses were abrogated by later verses. The Suras of the Koran are ordered by length and are not chronological. Sura 9 is one of the last written, so it abrogates all preceding verses it may conflict with. According to Mohammed, Allah can change his mind whenever.

Hey, if I want to spend my money on blackjack, hookers and booze, that's none of your business. :D :p

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

The problem with the West is that people keep trying to boil the actual problems down to rediculously oversimplistic rhetoric rather than fix the actual problems. Yeah...if we could just all find God, all just have good morals, then life would be all beams of sunlight and joy. Sorry, that is not only unrealistic, but ignores the actual problems.

Nothing like seeing those words "sexual deviancy". What, exactly, is sexually deviant? Why? What makes it so bad?

Why are our depression rates so much higher? Maybe it has to do with the fact that we have a profession dedicated to its diagnosis, the money to see these professionals, and *gasp* the ability to do something about it.

Unwilling to fight? Do you not see the massive demonstrations in the news on a monthly basis? Strikes? Elections that shift power?

I do not believe in God. I am not depressed, I am willing to fight for what I believe in. I lead an ethical life. I engage in what you would probably term "sexual deviancy" and nudity (oh please, like nudity is a bad thing. Seeing a penis or a vagina or breasts will not damage you in the least), yet I am a good person. Am I consumeristic? Well, we all are. It is irrational and illogical to say otherwise, unless you actually do make all of your own clothes, built your own house, etc. Welcome to conspicuous consuption.

The problems in Western society (which, in and of itself is a huge oversimplification) are not that simple. How do we fix education? Poverty? Hunger? Crime? Drugs? Organized crime? Believing in God and getting rid of consumerism won't do much. It is not one simple problem. It is a mass of small problems that collect and add together.

And no society is without its problems. The issues of the East are comparable to the issues of the West, even if they might be different problems.

Islam is the answer!





















"Why does shit keep blowing up?" is the question.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Fuck off.

I'm not interested in people who push their religion on others. So you can just go shove it, yeah.

PS: You give Muslims a bad name.

Define "the West". I mean, if the earth is round, then there's always going to be an east and a west. West of my country is Canada. West of Canada is Russia. And in the end it all comes back. I just really hate this 'west' generalisation.

What's the deal with people converting to islam anyway? It's like promising never to have fun ever again.

No wonder those people are so angry.

No, what it is is promising to worship Allah because he has given us life and so much else. He gave us the Qur'an to so that we have purpose and direction in life, and those who see the truth will have paradise after this life.

I am not angry, in fact I have never been happier.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
Wow, this BS is just as obnoxious, shallow and useless when spewed by a Muslim as when spewed by a Christian. Thanks for showing us another thing the east and west have in common. :rolleyes:

What else is there to fill with but "things" that make you happy? If sex, drugs and shopping makes people happy, you have no high ground to proclaim them as "vapid". I can equally say that you fill you life with bile and hatred of happiness at the hands of your religion.
people only fill themselves with sex, drugs, and shopping because they are without God. If they weren't they would have no use for these things.

You're under the false illusion that your religion has granted you greater fulfillment than my life of sexual deviancy etc.
its not a false illusion at all, its true.

No, what it is is promising to worship Allah because he has given us life and so much else. He gave us the Qur'an to so that we have purpose and direction in life, and those who see the truth will have paradise after this life.

I am not angry, in fact I have never been happier.

Thats nice. But what actually makes you think you're better than us 'corrupt, immoral westerners'? You get to condemn homosexuality and women and such now?

people only fill themselves with sex, drugs, and shopping because they are without God. If they weren't they would have no use for these things.

its not a false illusion at all, its true.

Personally I like sex and shopping, although not the drugs. If it makes me happy and Iharm no-one else...what's the problem exactly?

If Islam is so much better, how come all the regions dominated by Islam are the hellholes of the world? I am not just referring to the Middle East either.

thats not true at all prove it.

No, what it is is promising to worship Allah because he has given us life and so much else. He gave us the Qur'an to so that we have purpose and direction in life, and those who see the truth will have paradise after this life.


How do you know that allah did all that then?

Why are our depression rates so much higher? Maybe it has to do with the fact that we have a profession dedicated to its diagnosis, the money to see these professionals, and *gasp* the ability to do something about it.


that doesn't explain the higher suicide rates


The problems in Western society (which, in and of itself is a huge oversimplification) are not that simple. How do we fix education? Poverty? Hunger?

If everyone gave to charity as all Muslims should that would go along way it stopping those things

Crime? Drugs? Organized crime? Believing in God and getting rid of consumerism won't do much. It is not one simple problem. It is a mass of small problems that collect and add together.
Consumerism certainly does lead to those things. Everyone wants all these material goods and if they get them they turn to crime or drugs to fill the space of not having goods.

How do you know that allah did all that then?

The Qur'an

No, what it is is promising to worship Allah because he has given us life and so much else. He gave us the Qur'an to so that we have purpose and direction in life, and those who see the truth will have paradise after this life.
That's a question begging argument.

The Qur'an

How do you know that the Koran is true though? I mean what if some dudes just made it up, like the bible.

How do you know that the Koran is true though? I mean what if some dudes just made it up, like the bible.

Because if you knew the history of the Qur'an and how it was formed, you would know this could not be the case.

Look, I'm happy that you are happy now that you have converted. However, no matter what you say I will not be changing religious views soon.

I'm a Christian and I don't agree with things some people do, but who am I to judge them and force them to change. As long as it's not infringing on other peoples' rights (such as murdering or stealing) then there's nothing that you can or should do about it. Let people decide their own morals and meanings in their own lives. Worry about your own.

Because if you knew the history of the Qur'an and how it was formed, you would know this could not be the case.

Why is that? Did allah write it in person? Did a lot of people see allah write it?

Hence why Paris Hilton constitutes every middle class girls icon.....

Every middle-class girl?

Paris Hilton is a lowlife whore who should not be famous at all. She is useless and vapid and nobody gives a flying damn about her. Thanks for generalizing every American middle-class girl, because I loathe Paris Hilton with a passion. :mad:

that doesn't explain the higher suicide ratesNor did I say it did. However, I, nor you to the best of my knowledge, are sociologists, nor have you provided a single source to prove what you say, and therefore, I'm not going to postulate a reason.




If everyone gave to charity as all Muslims should that would go along way it stopping those thingsYou have to believe in God to give to charity? I give to charity, and don't believe in God. And not all muslims DO give to charity. They should, but some don't.
And charity provides relief. It does not correct the underlying problem. It is similar to going after the sore throat when someone has mono.


Consumerism certainly does lead to those things. Everyone wants all these material goods and if they get them they turn to crime or drugs to fill the space of not having goods.Can you honestly say you are not part of the consumerist culture? Do you not purchase anything?
Additionally, there is no link between feeling "empty" from material goods and drug use that I have ever seen. If you want to make those claims, I'm going to have to demand a source.

The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why?

Because most Third World nations have more important things to do than wonder why its citizens are sad.

Because most Third World nations have more important things to do than wonder why its citizens are sad.

Like invade thrid-world countries for no apparent reason...

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

I partially agree with you, although you ned to be more specific. I consider myself a devout Muslim, although many would disagree. My personal feelings are that Allah and their God are the same being. Their teachings are mostly the same, and differences can be put down the the interpretations of the humans who recorded both the Qu'ran and the Bible. They are not without Allah, they merely have a different name for him. Sexual deivancy is also something I don't see as a problem and I doubt that Allah does either.
But I do think that materialism is a major part of the root of this hollownes and depression. The West invaded my country and killed many people. They could not be considered weak, merely terribly misguided. However, after moving to Saudi Arabia and seeing the oppressive firce Islam has becom here, I cannot say that our propects are much better.

Inshallah, things change. ;)

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media.
Agreed. The media has grown too much in the last 2 generations. It's master's plan has advanced rapidly.
The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy.
Sounds believable, but I ask, why would we suspect wealth would correlate inverse with suicide/depression?
Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.
Well now I will say we have lost our purpose. As long as everyone has their material comforts they could give a shit is their liberty is lost. Makes me puke.
hmmm, allahlahalhalhal huh? Isn't that what you say after you kill somebody?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as there's probably something you mean to say by "allah" which you are unable to express outside of rigid dogmas.

On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future.

Absolutely true..I suspect in the future ISLAM may be the very thing we have to fight, It;s shadow could unite us all.
So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
We'd have to loose all of our creature excesses first.
The average person MIGHT begin to wake up then.
I hope.
[/QUOTE]

The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why?

Reported rates.

I can tell you from experience that suicide rates in other nations are just as shockingly high, but are often not reported as such. The cause of death will be...gunshot wound, or drowning, rather than suicide. Usually desperation, financial ruination...leading to suicide.

Anyway, back to your rant about god.

Because if you knew the history of the Qur'an and how it was formed, you would know this could not be the case.

The history of the Quran is that it was written by one man, on his own, in a cave, where he claimed to have visions of God. No verification, no independent witness, just his word

The Bible is based on history of over 2000 years. Historical accounts, legal doumnets, personal reports, eyewitnes testemony, poetry collections, collections of wisdoms & proverbs, letters etc. All sorts of literature styles and forms of writing writen by over 40 people over a period much longer than the Quran yet it all fits together increadbly well.

On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak.

ROFL

Yeah.

Perhaps if some more muslims knock down some more of the Americans' landmarks they can respond by taking out the government of a few more muslim nations.

Why on earth would you want the west MORE willing to fight??

Some of the west's most respected people have tried to teach peace and how to work together rather than fight. Pity your conversion has left you empty in this area.

Originally Posted by Soviestan View Post
On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak.

Yeah.

Perhaps if some more muslims knock down some more of the Americans' landmarks they can respond by taking out the government of a few more muslim nations.

Why on earth would you want the west MORE willing to fight??

I dont think that is what was meant.
There are such things brewing in our (US) govmnt that a non-subdued ppl would stand and be counted.
The mass availablity of any goods you want at a cheap price tends to make them content just to buy stuff, which passes for 'free' these days. No i have no source; pure anecdote.

Every middle-class girl?

Paris Hilton is a lowlife whore who should not be famous at all. She is useless and vapid and nobody gives a flying damn about her. Thanks for generalizing every American middle-class girl, because I loathe Paris Hilton with a passion. :mad:

As do my younger sisters.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Well, there's a great deal to be said about tending to one's own faults and not concerning oneself with criticizing others' lives.

Luke 6:42 "Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye."

The West is screwed up, I agree with that.
The rest of what you said, not so much.
:)

I don't think that's the reason at all. It has more to do with increased global trade and democracy.

Bingo. Global trade means you have an easier time getting the stuff you want and for cheaper, and democracy means, in general, that your government is not likely to come and take it away from you, just for the hell of it.

At the end of the day, peace is promulgated, wars are fought and revolutions waged so we can sit back in our house and watch our tv in peace without fear that a roving band of criminals is gonna sweep in and take it, and without fear that as we watch our tv our government is watching us.

That's really what it's all about in the end.

The history of the Quran is that it was written by one man, on his own, in a cave, where he claimed to have visions of God. No verification, no independent witness, just his word
FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity. [/copy-paste]



The Bible is based on history of over 2000 years. Historical accounts, legal doumnets, personal reports, eyewitnes testemony, poetry collections, collections of wisdoms & proverbs, letters etc. All sorts of literature styles and forms of writing writen by over 40 people over a period much longer than the Quran yet it all fits together increadbly well.
There are great inconsistencies in the bible, which led Christians to stray. I think many in the west have no idea about Islam or the Qur'an and if they did they would see how much sense it makes and more would come to Islam. I think this is one of the reasons Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the US. this is not an accident.

I agree that the current materialist culture has gotten out of control, but it's only a relatively recent occurrence in the west. I think the west is more than capable of dealing with its own problems, we sure as hell don't need islam when we've done great without it before. And whatever the faults are of society today, they would be a million times worse under the Taliban-style society that islam would bring to us.

Also, one myth we certainly need to dispel is this belief that muslims are such decent, upstanding, family orientated people. Look at areas populated by muslims in Europe and Australia for some examples of how muslims act - theiving, murder, rape - though I suppose somebody like you no doubt thinks that a non-muslim woman is fair game. And it isn't only in Europe. From what I've heard, gay sex is very widespread in a lot of primitive muslim societies in certain backward areas of Egypt, Pakistan, ect. But it's not considered gay for some reason. They probably think gay people just carry handbags around. And I'm very sure that plenty of children are sexually abused in muslim countries, it just won't come out because children are considered property.

Though I do agree that people in the west need to fight. It is a shame how so many people are sitting by and letting a primitive, backward foreign cult gain ground in their societies. A more martial mentality is something I would like to see. The west needs to stop being so squeamish about getting its hands dirty.

Originally Posted by Soviestan
Because if you knew the history of the Qur'an and how it was formed, you would know this could not be the case.
The history of the Quran is that it was written by one man, on his own, in a cave, where he claimed to have visions of God. No verification, no independent witness, just his word

The Bible is based on history of over 2000 years. Historical accounts, legal doumnets, personal reports, eyewitnes testemony, poetry collections, collections of wisdoms & proverbs, letters etc. All sorts of literature styles and forms of writing writen by over 40 people over a period much longer than the Quran yet it all fits together increadbly well.
Ha! Hilarious! You're both claiming truth for texts, the truth of which cannot be proven. Sovietstan has nothing but an unsupported claim of truth, and Neo Sanderstead relies on literary criticism. Most entertaining.

There is no more proof for either of your books than there is for any other religious text in the world, in the history of the world. And the world would be a lot better off, in my opinion, if religious people could get past this childish need to have their myths be really, really real, and instead be satisfied with their spiritual import as metaphors.

Ha! Hilarious! You're both claiming truth for texts, the truth of which cannot be proven. Sovietstan has nothing but an unsupported claim of truth, and Neo Sanderstead relies on literary criticism. Most entertaining.

There is no more proof for either of your books than there is for any other religious text in the world, in the history of the world. And the world would be a lot better off, in my opinion, if religious people could get past this childish need to have their myths be really, really real, and instead be satisfied with their spiritual import as metaphors.

you should read my last post before you say I have nothing but unsupported claims and mock my faith.

you should read my last post before you say I have nothing but unsupported claims and mock my faith.
I see that, now that you've found religion, you're going to be one of those people who denounces criticism of your argument as mocking of your faith. That sort of thing just makes you look hysterical.

As to your post, I did read it. There's no proof in it that your prophet got the content of the Qu'ran from his God. All you told us is stories of how the book was written, how it is organized, and other people's claims about where the content came from and why it is organized the way it is. The stories themselves are not proof of even their own content, let alone the source of the content of the Qu'ran. Where is your proof of divine dictation? It is nowhere, because no such proof exists -- for any religion.

That doesn't make it a false religion. It just means you cannot claim definitively that YOUR book is true and the other guy's is false.

FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity. [/copy-paste]



There are great inconsistencies in the bible, which led Christians to stray. I think many in the west have no idea about Islam or the Qur'an and if they did they would see how much sense it makes and more would come to Islam. I think this is one of the reasons Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the US. this is not an accident.


Did anyone other than Muhammad see Gabriel? Or was it just him?

FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity. [/copy-paste]


Soooo, the great miracle here is that it was copied???

I think the Jews have you beat.

Plus, they don't have to do that goofy acronym every time they mention Moses.

If "material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity" stop people from becoming suicide bombers, I'm all in favour.

Ba-dum-pish!

Hah, this topic is funny. So the West is decadent and empty?

Yah, but islam is the 1600-Year-Old Virgin.

The Qur'an


That holds up as well as me saying that the Ressurrection of Christ is 100% proven since it was said in the injeel.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

erm im muslim, i mite share some of your views but why do u have to stir up a hornets nest?

erm im muslim, i mite share some of your views but why do u have to stir up a hornets nest?

He's a troll :p

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media.
Don't forget indifference, fundamentalism and a large helping of hypocrisy!
The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.
I agree...I need Allah...
A little bit of Allah in my life
A little bit of Jesus by my side
A little bit of Buddha is all I need
A little bit of Krishna is what I see
A little bit of Apollo in the sun
A little bit of Odin all night long
A little bit of Ahura Mazda here I am
A little bit of you makes me your man
But anyway, here's a list that'll give you a better idea of why we got more depression and suiciders:
1. Emos. We don't kill off our emos as fast as other cultures today and in the past have done. We just let them take care of things themselves because it's cheaper.
2. Tough, broken life. Yes, not all of us in the West are wealthy. That's an effect of our capitalist ways. There may be more cash in general, but there are plenty of people who cannot escape the hell they were born to, and wouldn't know how to feed themselves (a skill that has not been forgotten as much outside the West).
3. Women problems. No offense to the other team, but some women drive some of us crazy enough to give up on everything if you reject us.
4. Men problems. See previous reason, switch women with men.
5. Cults. Kind of ties in with the emo thing. We let suicide cults do their own thing, instead of executing them for their heresies against God, etc.
On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak.
I have no idea what you're talking about. We pick fights with everyone. We don't get into as much fights as we want to, though. I blame civilization and its related condiments of democracy and education.
It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
There are already problems. The problems will be magnified when we start to fight over dwindling resources as our populations explode. There'll be a period of massive struggle, and all will be well, because most of us will be dead.

:rolleyes:

Your repressive, obsolete religion & Allah are not welcome in my home. Thank you, Constitution.

You try to bring it into my home? Thank you, Second Amendment.

Goddamn, I Love America.

J.

Are you kidding Sovie? We've got the vital liquids, and that's where strength is. Coffee in the morning, booze in the evening, the natural way of things.

Hear, hear! :D

:rolleyes:

Your repressive, obsolete religion & Allah are not welcome in my home. Thank you, Constitution.

You try to bring it into my home? Thank you, Second Amendment.

Goddamn, I Love America.

J.

Uhm ... thank you, Constitution? :confused:

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

A feww months ago, there was this article i read on the happiness in each country and According to it, the Vanatus are the happiest in Asia. The people there said that, if i remenbered properly, that they are always happy due to god or something.... So i think religion plays an important position in happiness

Personally i think happiness is time spent with family and friemds

Uhm ... thank you, Constitution? :confused:

Formally, The United States Constitution. Responsible for our form of government. & the First Amendment, specifically the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment.

J.

:rolleyes:

Your repressive, obsolete religion & Allah are not welcome in my home. Thank you, Constitution.

You try to bring it into my home? Thank you, Second Amendment.

Goddamn, I Love America.

J.

I don't think anyone is trying to put Muslims in your house. And might I add, your post is entirely idiotic. Thank you, first Amendment.

A feww months ago, there was this article i read on the happiness in each country and According to it, the Vanatus are the happiest in Asia. The people there said that, if i remenbered properly, that they are always happy due to god or something.... So i think religion plays an important position in happiness

Personally i think happiness is time spent with family and friemds

World's happiest countries:

Denmark
Malta
Switzerland
Iceland
Ireland
Canada
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Mexico
Sweden

World's unhappiest country:

Zimbabwe

I don't think anyone is trying to put Muslims in your house. And might I add, your post is entirely idiotic. Thank you, first Amendment.

Ha! Wine in excess tends to make me contentious. Thanks for the moderation. :p

J.

Ha! Wine in excess tends to make me contentious. Thanks for the moderation. :p

J.

Dear J,

No problem. Hah.

Love,
Thomas

Dear J,

No problem. Hah.

Love,
Thomas

Dear Thomas,

Get back to work. We are monitoring your progress even now.

Sincerely,
The Management

P.S. See your supervisor regarding your promotion for helping fellow Americans.

Dear Thomas,

Get back to work. We are monitoring your progress even now.

Sincerely,
The Management

P.S. See your supervisor regarding your promotion for helping fellow Americans.

Dear Boss,

Screw you!:upyours: Where is my raise at? I am barely eating any more. Don't make me tell your wife you like to wear her pantey hose.

Yours Truly,
Thomas

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
I agree with you completely, but unfortunately I know no way to correct this.

Dear Boss,

Screw you!:upyours: Where is my raise at? I am barely eating any more. Don't make me tell your wife you like to wear her pantey hose.

Yours Truly,
Thomas

Dear Thomas,

We appreciate hearing your concerns. We will refer this unfortunate situation to the Human Resources Director. We will also refer your un-American activities to law enforcement authorities if you continue to be unproductive and slander your superior's sexual preferences.

Sincerely,
The Management

P.S. Disregard previous postscript.

Dear Thomas,

We appreciate hearing your concerns. We will refer this unfortunate situation to the Human Resources Director. We will also refer your un-American activities to law enforcement authorities if you continue to be unproductive and slander your superior's sexual preferences.

Sincerely,
The Management

P.S. Disregard previous postscript.



Dang...not again :)

I did say it was moving away not that it had already moved on. In my experience as people become more mature they see the Paris Hilton type for what they are. It is just in my experience though. I'll concede that

I tend to disagree. In any case, why not analyse current TV?

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

i'm not sure about allah, but there is an element of altruism and a certain something missing from modern life.

check out this http://www.altruists.org/ideas/society/consumerism/

FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)

No, that is what you believe it cannot however be indepenetly verified as to whether or not God was actually speeking to him.


in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity.

All you have done here is give me the life story of the said man. My point still remains. You take out what you believe and leave what can be independetly verified and what you have left essentially is the story of a man who claims that he was sent the word of God. That is it. Just one man.

Also the Quran has not been kept intact. Shortly after Muhammad's death, the Muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the Koran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid's copy was better? If so, how do we know? Did differences in the copies arise so quickly that discrepancies were evident and Uthman recognized the need for a standardized copy lest Islam suffer division? It raises doubt on the Koran's supposed incorruptibility.


There are great inconsistencies in the bible, which led Christians to stray.

I'd quite like to discuss with you those. If you have MSN Vertigo_One_495@hotmail.com is my adress


I think many in the west have no idea about Islam or the Qur'an and if they did they would see how much sense it makes and more would come to Islam. I think this is one of the reasons Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the US. this is not an accident

Its mainly the fastest growing religion in the world because of policies in Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria and other Arab states that make it virtually impossible to practise Christianity or any other religion freely. Tell me, if Islam is true, then wouldn't you have very little to fear of the Christian church.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

*reclines in a beanbag chair, naked and eating cheetos* I think we need more positive role models. I volunteer. :)

How to help the West:

1) Study major cultural events and determine their impact on the people of the West.
2) ??????
3) PROFIT.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Sovietstan I was with you right up until you brought religion into this.... Oh well least it wasn't christianity this time...

How to help the West:

1) Study major cultural events and determine their impact on the people of the West.
2) ??????
3) PROFIT.

Stealing the underpants gnomes plans eh? EH? EH?!?!?!?

Sorry I have a bad case of Canadian

He's a troll :p

its getting quite annoying really, i mean im muslim DUH i get pissed when ppl diss my religion, cuz i never diss anyone, its a matter of faith and i mean u cant actually debate faith cuz its not tangible. and him bringing up such matter gives ppl reason to diss Islam, no matter how limited thier understanding is. i mean as a muslim, i feel that the best way to promote the religion is to be a good muslim and well not go here and ther poinitng at other ppls faults or shortcomings in their faith or ways of life. Islam i feel is an alternative to whatever he said, an alternative lifestyle. a way to achieve inner peace i feel and purpose and truly after achieving this, who cares if the whole world isnt muslim. really sovietstan, if your faith is that strong then there is no need to tell people about it, it should reflect in your actions and that is truly how islam should spread, by muslims being examplary human beings, something most of us fall short off. and by exmplary means, not be good according to thier yardstick but Allah's yardstick, wheather they like it or not.

What else is there to fill with but "things" that make you happy? If sex, drugs and shopping makes people happy, you have no high ground to proclaim them as "vapid". I can equally say that you fill you life with bile and hatred of happiness at the hands of your religion. You're under the false illusion that your religion has granted you greater fulfillment than my life of sexual deviancy etc.

I second that.

You of course know that in the Western World they don't have the fun kind of prostitution that is unique to the Muslim world (and predominantly in the Shia sections of the muslim map)

But she isn't a prosititute she is just a woman you marry for the complete duration of a sex act.


Muta, it is called. :p

Basically, if somebody sanctions it as islamic, it is fine. But if it is not, then the very same act becomes "immoral". Go figure.

Muta, it is called. :p

Basically, if somebody sanctions it as islamic, it is fine. But if it is not, then the very same act becomes "immoral". Go figure.

actually, the rule is kinda well agreed upon my most scholars no longer appropiate and should not be practiced. since the central authority of Islam collapsed with the fall of the Ottoman Empire(they inherited the caliphate), there is no power among any scholar to impose it on everyone, but generally its outlawed and not practiced except in tribal areas. ill try to research teh reason y it was allowed in the first place, but as far as i know it was for very very extreme situations.

actually, the rule is kinda well agreed upon my most scholars no longer appropiate and should not be practiced. since the central authority of Islam collapsed with the fall of the Ottoman Empire(they inherited the caliphate), there is no power among any scholar to impose it on everyone, but generally its outlawed and not practiced except in tribal areas. ill try to research teh reason y it was allowed in the first place, but as far as i know it was for very very extreme situations.

Sounds like someone was just extremely horny and wanted to get laid, but also extremely religious and wanted it sanctioned by their religion. Every religion has bullshit like that in it somewhere along the line. It's about as bad as the Catholic church selling indulgences.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

My life is far more fufilled without allah , and even if it weren't I would never turn to allah. That statement of yours is deliberatly provocative and offensive.

The problem with the West is we need more friggin frozen waffles. I'm freaking starving here, man.

I'm not the most materialistic person, nor am I sexually active, yet I live in the West. I'm quite happy here. Why? Because I have the option to do as I deem right. If I want to go to Auburn to study neurology, I will. There's nothing stopping me except my own potential. And I am quite happy with this knowledge. I don't feel spiritually empty or vapid. If eventually I find the need to commit to a religion, I will, but I doubt it will change my view on life.

Sovietstan has talked of things that (S)He knows little of , only a minority feel like that , the east is a land with little hope for its people. Islam is thankfully on its way out as the west has begun to wisen up about what heathen rubbish they spill out.

FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity. [/copy-paste]



There are great inconsistencies in the bible, which led Christians to stray. I think many in the west have no idea about Islam or the Qur'an and if they did they would see how much sense it makes and more would come to Islam. I think this is one of the reasons Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the US. this is not an accident.

And all we have is Muhammad's word for it.
Not to be rude, but is that not one of the reasons many people dismiss many texts? Because the message came from one person who claimed divine inspiration? (Think Book of Mormon and some of the things people have said on this very board concerning its transmission).

And if you'd like to talk about people straying, how about those who use the Koran as justification for the torture and murder of non-Muslims seemingly every day? Or for the murder of fellow Muslims who belong to different sects?

If anything, the examples this violence gives to non-Muslims makes it difficult for many to accept that Islam is, indeed, a "better" or a peaceful religion... and that's from someone who lives in a place where there *are* many Muslims and who has found them to be, generally speaking, very kind and thoughtful group.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity.
Don't judge a book by its cover. The book being the West, the cover being the TV.

The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.
1.The West hasn't the highest suicide rate in the world. Japan has. Followed by Nordic countries. Now tell me Japan is West - or godless. The Emperor of Japan is a godlike being, according to the Shinto.
2.So you think that believers don't suicide, just atheists do? If it was true, all atheists should be dead by now, don't you think so?
Just because YOU find a purpose in your religion, this doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't follow your religion, or any religion at all, is - or feels - purposeless.

On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
I think that the problem is that the West is willing to fight for TOO MANY things, including things that cannot be obtained through a fight (like western-type democracy in the Middle East) or things that shouldn't be gained through a fight (oil).
If you think that the West is weak, just compare the combined economies, the scientifical research, the tech level and the military power of EU, USA and Canada with the rest of the world. Compare the ability of letting so many different ethnical groups live in the same places without generating a war or a pogrom. You call this weakness?

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

I do not believe it is problem.

I read a statement by a Chinese philosopher on the West(I am paraphrasing) he said "In the east we dedicate ourselves to spiritual enlightenment, and find only materialism, in the west they dedicate their lives to Materialism and find Spirituality" again paraphrased it was far more brilliant sounding I swear.

In any event his point was(as I take it) you can not judge a culture based on your precepts.

....but generally its outlawed and not practiced except in tribal areas. ill try to research teh reason y it was allowed in the first place, but as far as i know it was for very very extreme situations.

You need to get out more. ;) It is not uncommon. I myself know of such instances.....both in India and in the US and they are not tribal people by any stretch of imagination.

Sounds like someone was just extremely horny and wanted to get laid, but also extremely religious and wanted it sanctioned by their religion. Every religion has bullshit like that in it somewhere along the line. It's about as bad as the Catholic church selling indulgences.

Or CoE starting cos the king was fed up with not being able to get more divorces! ;)

The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H)
Translate from Muslim-speak into English:
A guy sat in a cave and claimed that he copied stuff God told him to copy. Then he had other guys copy it.
At least the Christians have a better story than that.
And I like my CS and gaming, thank you very much.

"In the east we dedicate ourselves to spiritual enlightenment, and find only materialism, in the west they dedicate their lives to Materialism and find Spirituality"

That is going into my book of quotes immediately.

The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah.

Really? Those closest to Allah seem to commiting suicide a lot too what is your point?

Or CoE starting cos the king was fed up with not being able to get more divorces! ;)

Precisely why I don't trust religion at all. Islam is a Judaism spinoff that hates Jews. Christianity is a ripoff of Judaism and Paganism (Sunday is the Sabbath? Chritian holidays on the exact same dates as Pagan ones?)

Feels great to be an atheist.

Precisely why I don't trust religion at all. Islam is a Judaism spinoff that hates Jews. Christianity is a ripoff of Judaism and Paganism (Sunday is the Sabbath? Chritian holidays on the exact same dates as Pagan ones?)

Feels great to be an atheist.

Whatever floats your boat. Who says we both can't be happy believing what we wish, without having to belittle the other's view?

Whatever floats your boat. Who says we both can't be happy believing what we wish, without having to belittle the other's view?

no one that i know of

Precisely why I don't trust religion at all. Islam is a Judaism spinoff that hates Jews. Christianity is a ripoff of Judaism and Paganism (Sunday is the Sabbath? Chritian holidays on the exact same dates as Pagan ones?)

Feels great to be an atheist.

to call either religion a "spinoff" or "ripoff" deeply betrays your ignorance as to their history and development. Likewise, while the timing of christmas may be somewhat circumspect, the timing of easter is not a christian invention to have a spring holiday as it's chronologically tied to another, non christian holiday and, should the bible be true, it pretty much requires easter to be held in the spring to closely mirror when the crucifixion/resurrection took place.

to call either religion a "spinoff" or "ripoff" deeply betrays your ignorance as to their history and development. Likewise, while the timing of christmas may be somewhat circumspect, the timing of easter is not a christian invention to have a spring holiday as it's chronologically tied to another, non christian holiday and, should the bible be true, it pretty much requires easter to be held in the spring to closely mirror when the crucifixion/resurrection took place.

OT, but what the hell.


Ever hear Jim Gaffigan's routine about holliday traditions?
Christmas sounds like a drunk guy invented it. Some lady wakes up and finds a pine tree in her living room and asks her drunk husband what happened "I like it. I'm going to decorate it.....For Jesus. Then I'm going to hang my socks over the fireplace and fill them with candy. Later I'll hang some leaves from the ceiling and see if I can get lucky.

What are we going to do for Easter? "How bout eggs?" What does that have to do with Jesus? "OK, we'll hide 'em" I don't follow your logic "Don't worry, there's a bunny"

FALSE educate yourself
The Quran is the recorded words of Allah Himself dictated verbatim to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in installments, verse by verse or a group of verses, through the angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years between 610 and 633 AD. It is divided into 114 units, each called a surah. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) received revelation of the Quranic surahs as and when Allah chose to bestow on him new revelation. At times several surahs, particularly the longer ones, were being revealed to him concurrently. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to have a group of scribes entrusted with committing immediately whatever was revealed to him to writing. Those scribes used parchment, pottery, date palm leaves, flat stones, tree bark, wood, dried animal skins and even the shoulder blades of sheep or camels to write on; and the revealed verses were memorized by heart as the mere recitation of the Quran is in itself an act of worship, and as Muslims used these verses in their judgments and in their daily five prayers. In this manner, the verses of the Quran were preserved in the hearts of Muslims, as well as written down, during the lifetime of the Prophet. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was instructed by angel Gabriel where to place every new passage in the surahs. The surahs were named by divine decree, and Muhammad (P.B.U.H) recited the whole of the Quran in front of Gabriel more than once in the last year of his life. Similarly, the arrangement of the surahs in a specific order was given by the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who indicated it mostly by reading the surahs, particularly in prayer, in a specific order. No revealed book has ever enjoyed the authenticity of the Quran or had the cherishing, reverence, surveillance and care of its followers as the Quran. The whole Quran has been memorized by a large number of Muslims in the lifetime of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

After Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) departure, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, asked one of the original scribes, Zaid ibn Thabit, to be in charge of collecting the original writings of the Quranic revelations and writing down the whole Quran. Zaid produced a whole copy of the Quran written on pages of leather. It was arranged in the order we have today. This was done in the first two years after the Prophet’s death, since Abu Bakr ruled for less than two years. This copy was then entrusted with the second Caliph, Omar, and finally with the third Caliph, Othman. During the reign of Othman, the Arabs came to know the paper industry from China and Othman called on Zaid to head a committee of four Quranic scholars who would take on the task of making seven copies. Those seven copies (written 14 years after Muhammad’s (P.B.U.H) death) were distributed to the various centers of the Muslim state to be the reference copy in each center. At least three of those original copies of the Quran are still intact, one in Tashkent, one in Istanbul, and one in Cairo. They do not differ in one letter from the millions of copies of the Quran that are in the hands of people today. This authentication of the last revelation is in itself miraculous. The Quran is the oldest book within the hands of humanity that has been kept intact in exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter. That is why the Quran is unique, because it is the word of the Creator in its purest divinity. [/copy-paste]


Eh, I'll stick with what was defended outside the walls of Vienna.

If you think that the West is weak, just compare the combined economies, the scientifical research, the tech level and the military power of EU, USA and Canada with the rest of the world. Compare the ability of letting so many different ethnical groups live in the same places without generating a war or a pogrom. You call this weakness?

Like I've always said, spiritual power is horrendously overrated when it comes to warfare. Reality is what counts, and these little toys are reality.

Like I've always said, spiritual power is horrendously overrated when it comes to warfare. Reality is what counts, and these little toys are reality.

Spiritual power provides support to those things; of course, it doesn't always take that form depending on the society (the Soviets used the Revolution and Communism to great effect during WWII), but there's always something there that lends a strong sense of esprit to everyone involved in the war effort.

Spiritual power provides support to those things; of course, it doesn't always take that form depending on the society (the Soviets used the Revolution and Communism to great effect during WWII), but there's always something there that lends a strong sense of esprit to everyone involved in the war effort.

Certainly it adds to the effort, but when challenging a power that is so radically more capable than yourself, it means nothing whatsoever.

On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Which is precisely the reason the US (and France and the UK come to think of it) had little choice but to start strutting on the middle eastern bloc. France backed out, which is why even the muslim population that live there scorn them, and the reason why millions of "down-trodden" muslims continue to flood to Britain and the US.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

They fill their lives with material things

Some people in the world are rather materialistic.

The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world
Its all teh emos!

most in the west are without purpose and without Allah
Without purpose and without Allah... uh huh.. fat lot of good that Allah and purpose has done for the Middle East.

most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore
Fight for anything? You would need to describe what exactly we don't fight for.


So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
Being as it is more a basic human issue, rather than specifically a western one, I don't know.
Do you think it does not correcting at all?

[QUOTE=Almighty America;12024772]
A little bit of Allah in my life
A little bit of Jesus by my side
A little bit of Buddha is all I need
A little bit of Krishna is what I see
A little bit of Apollo in the sun
A little bit of Odin all night long
A little bit of Ahura Mazda here I am
A little bit of you makes me your man
QUOTE]

SO sigged!:p

SO sigged!:p
Good! Lou Bega's Mambo No. 5 needs to be remembered for the ages. Or at least in NSG. :D

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

I'm sorry, but what you said really, really annoyed me. I'm from the west, which you say is "empty". I spend a lot of my time thinking about the purpose of life and working out what my own opinions are on moral issues. Just because I'm not Muslim doesn't mean I can therefore have no spiritual belief or powers to think deeply.

Another thing I have to say, you're typing this on a computer, computers are a bit materialistic, right?

Besides, you would be incredibly offended if people generalised Islam based on messed up prejudices, and rightly so. So please, don't be a hypocrit and talk about the West based on some dumbass generalisation you have that all we care about is how nice our hair is! There are so many people in the West who believe in much deeper things than this, like creating equality, and understanding the world better. There are even people in the music industry who are trying to open people's eyes to the problems in the world! Western music isn't all about falling in love and sleeping with people.

You're arrogance also annoys the hell out of me. I know my country is far from perfect, but no country in the world is. You seem to think yours is a hundred times better than mine!

The final thing to really, really piss me off is your comment about suicide and depression. How dare you say that everyone who has depression has it because their lives are hollow? Some people have it because people have messed up their lives for them (constant bullying, rape, domestic violence etc), or because they have a genuine medical condition (androgynous depression is caused by serotonin, the happy hormone, leaking out of the brain). Did you know one in three women will develop post natal depression, but only one in ten will actually speak out about it? Another biological reason for developing depression, not social. Once again, well done for the generalisation!

Did you know that and Egyptian journalist whilst driving his girlfriend home was stopped by the police, handcuffed and thrown in jail...all because he was driving late at night in the company of an attractive woman. He explained that she was his fiancee but they "were convinced she was a whore". If they hadn't been so sexually frustrated, they'd have let her go. Apparently, because of job scarcity, many young men aged 18-35 have to live with their parents, and so can't get married and can't have sex. This creates sexual tension, which leads to the banning of the mention of sex in public, and the covering of women, but also a depserate search for sexual experience. The word 'sex' is most frequently googled in Pakistan, Egypt is second, Iran and Morocco fourth and fifth, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia seventh and eigth. And you think it's just the west who are sex obsessed!

So please, don't generalise the West again! I have a lot of respect for Islam, and will always try and defend your religion as best as I can (I very, very, rarely have to do this, because most people I know are incredibly open minded about Islam) and I find it incredibly hurtful for others to not show the same respect for my culture, purely because of generalised prejudices people have. I know there are problems in the West, but I resent you calling us "weak", "empty" and say we are unwilling to fight for anything. If I was unwilling to fight for anything, I wouldn't have spent the last half an hour defending my culture from ignorant misrepresentation.

It's really sad to see how poorly the West are seen by the rest of the world, and how you believed this was a fair representation. I hope this message will show you that not all of us are as shallow as you seem to think we are.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?
I don't agree with fighting, but most people's lives seem to be spiritually vacant. They use material possessions to try to fill the void, but in truth that burden is the death of the soul.

most people's lives seem to be spiritually vacant.

Why do you say so?

I found a beautiful bit of news from the oh-so-moral Iran, a whole country devoted to worship of Allah and Mohammed PBUH. :rolleyes:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,451449,00.html
Iranian Soap Star Swept up in Video Scandal

A pornographic video is breaking all sales records in Iran. But it is also making a prominent TV star fear not just the end of her career, but also corporal punishment under the country's restrictive laws.

...

In the prudish mullah republic, even tame films of private pool parties meet with eager customers on the black market. But demand for Ebrahimi's unexpected onscreen performance is literally unbelievable. Despite its comparatively steep price of €10 ($13), it is believed that more than 100,000 copies of the cheap DVD have been sold in Tehran.

And I believe that if you go through the google statistics, you'll find that demand for porn is quite high in the Islamic world. And if you risk your life to look at naked chicks, you've gotta be pretty horny (read: "spiritually empty").

Why do you say so?
Because people find the latest models of mobile phone to be so important, for example. People rarely stop to serve others before themselves. Too many people spend sinful amounts of money on perfume, designer clothing and dog toys while other humans starve.

People are also apathetic when it comes to politics, and as we all know, evil takes over when good people do nothing. A lot of people are tired of the conflicts, and sick of all the killing that's going on. But in the west we are not numerous enough. Few people endorse such things, but most don't care enough to do anything about it - they're too comfortable.

And I believe that if you go through the google statistics, you'll find that demand for porn is quite high in the Islamic world. And if you risk your life to look at naked chicks, you've gotta be pretty horny (read: "spiritually empty").
I doubt even Soviestan is advocating Iran-style theocracy.

You guys haven't even addressed the REAL problem with the west...

NOT.
ENOUGH.
FROZEN WAFFLES.

Man, if I could just sink my teeth into some Buttermilk Eggos smothered in butter and gooey maple syrup, I think I'd die a happy man.

You guys haven't even addressed the REAL problem with the west...

NOT.
ENOUGH.
FROZEN WAFFLES.

Man, if I could just sink my teeth into some Buttermilk Eggos smothered in butter and gooey maple syrup, I think I'd die a happy man.

Fear not, the government is on the case, S&B! A newly formed bipartisan commission, the National Commission on the Waffle Shortage in the United States, or the Eggo Commission, has been tasked by Congress to find new ways to procure more waffles. The Eggo Commission is due to report their findings in three months.

thats not true at all prove it.

The Middle East is a backward and barbaric hotspot in which the Sunnis and Shiites have nothing better to do than to blow up each others mosques. Minorities in North Africa are continually oppressed my Muslims. In 2002, there was a beauty pageant in Nigeria. One journalist made a stupid remark, and Muslims started a riot that killed over 220 people. Look at the Islamic militias in Somalia destroying the region. Those Muslims Kosovars have caused war in the Balkans. Chechan Muslims take kids hostage in a Russian School. In Indonesia, little girls get beheaded for being Christians and Indonesian Muslim gangs terrorize the East Timorese. Need I go on?

Those Muslims Kosovars have caused war in the Balkans.Wow. You blame the Kosovars for getting massacred by the Serbs?

...I might as well add in that The Satanic Verses was a decent book. Very odd when I first read it, but looking back it actually deserves much more credit than I originally gave it.

Wow. You blame the Kosovars for getting massacred by the Serbs?

The Kosovars started the violence that made it necessary for the Serbs to do what they had to in order to protect their country. Yes, some Serbs did massacre some Kosovars, but it was nowhere near the number Clinton said. More are killed each year in L.A. gang wars. The Serbs knew what it was like to be attacked by Muslims since that is how the Muslims got in the region to begin with. They invaded.

The Kosovars started the violence that made it necessary for the Serbs to do what they had to in order to protect their country.
The Kosovars wanted to have independence, just like all the other parts of Yogoslavia that didn't see the point of being ruled by a Serb minority. The Serbs weren't happy that Yogoslavia was breaking apart, and reacted accordingly: with the same sort of made-up "our people are being oppressed there" excuses that Hitler came up with to attack all sorts of places.

I'm not justifying what the KLA did, but Milosevic started it, there is no doubt about it.

You know, for solving the problems of materialism, a little honest religion wouldn't be so bad. The values of modesty as taught by Judaism (my religion) and Islam (Soviestan's religion) would go a long way towards cutting down on the constant sexuality in Western culture, which is getting out of control these days.

However, the Middle East doesn't have it right either. There religion is taken to extremes and used to promote violence and intolerance. And that creates an even worse form of spritual emptiness. And radical Islam uses 'modesty' as an excuse to persecute women. Judaism has it right - in most Jewish households, the wife is dominant, at least over her husband.

We don't truly need religion to solve this problem. What we need are some decent values such as compassion, honesty, and modesty. And no forcing them on people - that only makes things worse.

And stop bashing Islam in particular. Soviestan may be motivated by Islamic values, but what he said could have been said by a Christian or Jew as well.

The values of modesty as taught by Judaism (my religion) and Islam (Soviestan's religion) would go a long way towards cutting down on the constant sexuality in Western culture, which is getting out of control these days.
Firstly, I'd ask you to show that anything is "out of control", other than in your personal opinion, in which case you could just choose not to look at porn or engage in sexual activities when given the chance.

And secondly, I already pointed out that all rigorous moral structures do is drive natural human urges underground. You don't eliminate sexuality, no matter how hard you may try. People in Iran and Pakistan are just as desperate for a bit of porn as people in the West, perhaps moreso.

1.The West hasn't the highest suicide rate in the world. Japan has. Followed by Nordic countries. Now tell me Japan is West - or godless. The Emperor of Japan is a godlike being, according to the Shinto.
japan is part of the west smart guy

Last I checked Japan was the Land of the Rising Sun. Sounds rather East to me.
But, seriosuly, the culture ideology is still very East, if not their technology and consumeristic lifestyles.

And all we have is Muhammad's word for it.
Not to be rude, but is that not one of the reasons many people dismiss many texts? Because the message came from one person who claimed divine inspiration? (Think Book of Mormon and some of the things people have said on this very board concerning its transmission).

"And those who do not know (the wisdom implied in Divine revelation) say, 'Why does not Allah speak to us or give us a (convincing) sign?' That is exactly what their predecessors had said. Their hearts have become very much alike. We have certainly made signs explicitly clear for a people who wish to be convinced" Qur'an (2:118)

And if you'd like to talk about people straying, how about those who use the Koran as justification for the torture and murder of non-Muslims seemingly every day? Or for the murder of fellow Muslims who belong to different sects?

These "Muslims" if you can even call them that, have certainly strayed. Not only from Islam but from humanity. Every Muslim should reject what they do. Most cite out of context verses to justify what they do when Allah gives them no such right to do so.

If anything, the examples this violence gives to non-Muslims makes it difficult for many to accept that Islam is, indeed, a "better" or a peaceful religion... and that's from someone who lives in a place where there *are* many Muslims and who has found them to be, generally speaking, very kind and thoughtful group.

I can't argue with that and Islam certainly is suffering from a PR problem right now which is I why feel Muslims should not force conversion on people, but at least educate people about what Islam really is.

No, that is what you believe it cannot however be indepenetly verified as to whether or not God was actually speeking to him.



All you have done here is give me the life story of the said man. My point still remains. You take out what you believe and leave what can be independetly verified and what you have left essentially is the story of a man who claims that he was sent the word of God. That is it. Just one man.

"He replied, 'My Lord knows what is conceived in the heaven and the earth. And he is the all-hearing, all-knowing.' Nay, they say, 'This (Qur'an) is (no revelation), but a jumble of confused dreams, rather he (the Prophet) has forged it himself; he is a poet(despite that he was illiterate). (If it is not) so let him then bring us some sign just as the former(Prophets) were sent with.Then we fulfilled the promise we made to them so that we delivered them, and those whom we pleased(beside them), and we destroyed the transgressors. Now we have revealed to you a (highly perfect) book wherein there is a provision for your eminence. Why do you not then make use of your understanding?" Qur'an (21: 4,5,9,10)

Also the Quran has not been kept intact. Shortly after Muhammad's death, the Muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the Koran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid's copy was better? If so, how do we know? Did differences in the copies arise so quickly that discrepancies were evident and Uthman recognized the need for a standardized copy lest Islam suffer division? It raises doubt on the Koran's supposed incorruptibility.

It raises no such doubts. However the Qur'an was preserved was the correct way.


I'd quite like to discuss with you those. If you have MSN Vertigo_One_495@hotmail.com is my adress

dont have msn sorry


Its mainly the fastest growing religion in the world because of policies in Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria and other Arab states that make it virtually impossible to practise Christianity or any other religion freely. Tell me, if Islam is true, then wouldn't you have very little to fear of the Christian church.

:confused: Its growing mainly outside of mostly Muslim countries including the US so your point fails.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Thats what religions for, preventing one from indulging in such things and taking the focus off material things, I think Asia will eventually take over the west, their society is stable and their military is strong and motivated.

The biggest problem with the West is the lack of Connection. We separate and seclude ourselves from each other and nature. There's no cohesion, no acknowledgement of the cause and effect nature of life. We live lives in our own mini-cosmos, oblivious to our inner-self, blinded by consumerism, and out-of-tune with nature.

"When you've seen beyond yourself
then you may find peace of mind is waiting there
And the time will come when you see
we're all one and life goes on within you and without you"
~Beatles

Thats what religions for, preventing one from indulging in such things and taking the focus off material things, I think Asia will eventually take over the west, their society is stable and their military is strong and motivated.


I do believe I agree with you.

I do believe I agree with you.

I think the west should end their materialistic and selfish ways and learn from asia. The things asians can do seem pretty unnatural. Plus I've been to China and US airports are crud compared to their computerized and futuristic ones.

japan is part of the west smart guy

Japan only seems like it's part of the West because since the end of WWII, they've been mimicking the US.

I think the west should end their materialistic and selfish ways and learn from asia. The things asians can do seem pretty unnatural. Plus I've been to China and US airports are crud compared to their computerized and futuristic ones.

The ideal would be a combining of the two world ideologies: East and West.

Certainly, the East right now are winning the cultural lottery.

Thats what religions for, preventing one from indulging in such things and taking the focus off material things, I think Asia will eventually take over the west, their society is stable and their military is strong and motivated.

On the contrary, Eastern countries are anything but stable. Lebanon is getting ripped apart for becoming a Democracy, Israel causes more tension in the Jewish-Islam Middle East conflict, Iraq is being ravaged by Shiite and Sunni Muslim militia and pretty much most of the Middle East is suffering from religious problems including anti-Christianity and beheading homosexuals. Their army consists mainly of volunteer Conscripts and Militia. Hardly what I would call strong, but perhaps maybe motivated. Tunisia and other countries like it are the only ones I would call stable. If your talking about the far East, with countries such as Japan, Korea and China, then I must disagree with you again. Japan is strong, but still suffers problems and is shadowed by China. China itself suffers from much corruption and poverty, problems they need to clear up before they can even consider going to war. North and South Korea both cancel each other out. There may possibly be smaller, more stable countries but they wouldn't cause much damage unless they unified.

And I would hardly call Religion the cure to the West's problems. Infact, the West is probably better off without Religious fanatiscm. If suicide rates are high at the moment, they'd get higher if a teenager wasn't allowed to drink or indulge in any other "materials". If homosexuals and any other people who don't meet Islam's standards were killed by either thugs or police then how would that give a purpose to our life? The only purpose that Islam, and most other religions, give to people is to punish themselves for their "sins" and to worship a God that never seems to repay us for our worship. I'm not going to sell my life for a nice, warm fuzzy feeling.

I AM NOT SOLOING OUT ISLAM. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY RELIGION AND FIND THEM ALL AS BAD AS EACH OTHER.

Well, thats my opinion. Feel free to quote 'n' subjugate.

"He replied, 'My Lord knows what is conceived in the heaven and the earth. And he is the all-hearing, all-knowing.' Nay, they say, 'This (Qur'an) is (no revelation), but a jumble of confused dreams, rather he (the Prophet) has forged it himself; he is a poet(despite that he was illiterate). (If it is not) so let him then bring us some sign just as the former(Prophets) were sent with.Then we fulfilled the promise we made to them so that we delivered them, and those whom we pleased(beside them), and we destroyed the transgressors. Now we have revealed to you a (highly perfect) book wherein there is a provision for your eminence. Why do you not then make use of your understanding?" Qur'an (21: 4,5,9,10)


What is it that you imagine this passage is saying that would convince anyone of anything??

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k117/SystemKarela/trollywood.jpg

Sounds like someone was just extremely horny and wanted to get laid, but also extremely religious and wanted it sanctioned by their religion. Every religion has bullshit like that in it somewhere along the line. It's about as bad as the Catholic church selling indulgences.

not really.... i think it was for situations of war and such, we cant compare then and now you see. getting married to a guy hu would be dead the next day would be a bummer. again such rules are and practices are not the norm, even say polygamy though allowed is actually not encouraged (the rules are really tough, u buy 1 a house u have to get all a house stuff liddat) and the Quraan specifically states that u have to be fair to all then says u cant be fair, so the big hint was to stick to 1 lady. so its liddat, diff situations calls for diff interpretations for a rule. then again the Mut'a is an exception rather than the norm. so is polygamy in Islam. and regarding teh thread on homosexaulity, im lazy to write two post is that, Islam does not condemn homosexuals but rather we condemn the act of homosexuality. and its more of a personal 'problem' which is to be remedied by prayers and fasting, nuhting else. then again some of u mite not see it as a 'problem' but ouh well that is your point of view and i respect that, just i feel as a muslim i do not impose my beliefs on you though i try to explain it to the best of my ability, i hope you do not impose your values or beliefs on me. but of course there are crazy ppl, and we ignore crazy ppl.

i really hope sovietstan would really look at problems among muslims adn remedy it rather than point out otehr ppls problems or what he perceives as problems. Islam is a religion which encourages self-reflection and improvement, and we discourage teh fact that u ridicule or point out ppls 'shortcomings' in public as muslims we are suppose to protect the image of everyone. personally i see the problem is with the muslims, not the non-muslims. bullshit u see like the sunni shia stuff and the stupid rules are actaully due to misinterpretation and stuff like that and who are we(muslims) to point out the shortcomings of others, when non-muslims are sometimes more islamic than muslim themselves? i hope soviestan answer that question.

You need to get out more. ;) It is not uncommon. I myself know of such instances.....both in India and in the US and they are not tribal people by any stretch of imagination.

i come from the most populous muslim region, SEA, indonesia, malaysia,, singapore. its not practiced here. infact u are right its still practiced in palces like India, Pakistan and some arabs. thats y i feel they are screwed. Islam came and give women status and power and they are doing the exact opposite.

Hmm..

I was raised Roman Catholic and went through all the "CCD" classes in order to make my Communion and Confirmation. While I thank my family for putting me through all that so that I don't have to worry about that if I marry a Roman Catholic woman, I really don't follow my religion too much.

I believe in God, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. I also do believe in pro-choice, and rights/marriage for homosexuals. I believe in stem cell research.

Does that make me a bad Christian? I do not believe so. What I believe does make someone a bad Christian, a bad Jew, or a bad Muslim is the fact that people try to impose thier religion on other people. I don't know where some people can take a radical view of the Bible or any other religious text, but one thing I was taught by Christianity was that you should respect other people's beliefs, values, etc.. even if they are different. I see a lot of people claim that people like me are going to "go to hell" because I don't go to Church every Sunday, or because I believe it's OK to support abortion or homosexuality.

I also don't understand why people believe religion will just make everything right and give people a sense of morals and all. How many wars have been fought over religion? How many lives have to be lost because one religion thinks they are right and will bring peace to the world? I've read this entire thread and I see people stating that a sense of religion will make things better in the West.

Who are you to tell me or anyone else that religion is what we need here in the West (specifically, the USA)? Just because someone has found happiness with their religion doesn't mean that everyone will find that same happiness or want to follow a religion. Imposing your beliefs on someone who is able to make a choice for themselves is oppression. All religions are guilty of it - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc..

I've made my choices and do I feel empty or wanting something? No.

Do I feel that the West (again, specifically the USA) needs to solve its own domestic problems? Yes.

Is religion or religious beliefs the answer? No.

People keep saying that we are "materialistic" and "without values". Why do you say that? So what if we like to have nice cars, houses, cell phones, etc.? So what if my society has a lot of money and decides to spend it on items rather than other people or other countries? We do it because we can, because we want to, and because we made the choice to.

We do value our way of life, whether or not other people and countries like it or not. Sure, a lot of us do not want to go overseas and fight, but I can assure you that if it ever came to having to defend our country, we would all stand up and fight for our freedom.

As a 19-year old (yes, I'm 19) American living on my own with a full-time job doing Network/Datacenter Operations, I know damn well how hard it is to be able to live on your own and make all your own decisions. Let me say, I would not give these freedoms up for anything - especially religion! I do not need someone telling me that I need to "follow the word of God" in order to live a good and happy life. I am happy because I know that with hard work I can make a good life for myself, instead of putting my life into the hands of God or some religious text.

I choose to do what I do, to spend my money how I like, not because I'm materialistic, but because it's my way of showing the world that I can make my own choices and live life the way I see fit because I have that freedom.

I love how people say we are so "sexually deviant". What does that mean to you exactly? Why is it a bad thing people are going out and having sex? It's natural to have sex and to want to have sex. In my opinion, all the "soccer moms" and religious fanatics have done so much to make sex a taboo in this day and age that it doesn't hinder sexual activity, it fuels it. I do not see what the big deal about sex and sexual activity is all about. We are animals, through and through and sex is part of our nature. It's about time we embraced sex instead of patronizing it and shunning those who are sexually active. Yes, I know some people will argue that with more and more sexuality in our country, teens are going to have more babies and all, but face facts - the teen birth rate has dropped more than 50% in the past few years, not because of abstinence, but because of the adoption birth control.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/12/01/bc.teen.pregnancy.reut/index.html

To sum it all up, religion is not going to solve the West's (specifically the USA's) problems. If people would start taking their heads out of the sand and spent money on our own education and health care systems, instead of needless wars and conflicts, we would be better off.

I really feel sorry for those that use religion to justify killing, suicide, etc. and for those who try to impose their beliefs, therefore opressing people.

We will all learn one day, most likely the hard way.

What is it that you imagine this passage is saying that would convince anyone of anything??

Simply that the Qur'an shows that people who have doubted Allah or the Qur'an have been proven wrong time and again.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

The one thing you forget in condemning us poor western people is that when our backs are against the wall and all we hold dear (24 hr drinking, sex on the beach, and earning as much cash as we can to blow on the latest trinket) are on the line, we fight like you would'nt believe.

Just because we may seem to have empty meaningless lives does not mean we are not willing to fight for the right to have empty meaningless lives
Read up on the US war of independence, Second World war as examples for further enlightening.

Simply that the Qur'an shows that people who have doubted Allah or the Qur'an have been proven wrong time and again.

Isn't faith great!

It allows you to ignore things.

Simply that the Qur'an shows that people who have doubted Allah or the Qur'an have been proven wrong time and again.

Except that it doesn't show anything at all, it just says that it has.

Sorry, but has anyone noticed that Soviestan has become a self-righteous, arrogant jerk since converting to Islam?

Sorry, but has anyone noticed that I don't flame people ever and would appreciate if people would respond in kind?

All right, sorry about that. I didn't mean to be so harsh. [resists urge to make scathing comment about advocating Israeli genocide] The fact remains that I feel that this does come across as somewhat arrogant, 'Islam is so much better than the West'

"He replied, 'My Lord knows what is conceived in the heaven and the earth. And he is the all-hearing, all-knowing.' Nay, they say, 'This (Qur'an) is (no revelation), but a jumble of confused dreams, rather he (the Prophet) has forged it himself; he is a poet(despite that he was illiterate). (If it is not) so let him then bring us some sign just as the former(Prophets) were sent with.Then we fulfilled the promise we made to them so that we delivered them, and those whom we pleased(beside them), and we destroyed the transgressors. Now we have revealed to you a (highly perfect) book wherein there is a provision for your eminence. Why do you not then make use of your understanding?" Qur'an (21: 4,5,9,10)



It raises no such doubts. However the Qur'an was preserved was the correct way.




dont have msn sorry



:confused: Its growing mainly outside of mostly Muslim countries including the US so your point fails.

Well, it's kind of hard for Islam to grow in a country that's almost completely Islamic anyway, so your point fails.

Well, it's kind of hard for Islam to grow in a country that's almost completely Islamic anyway, so your point fails.

What you wrote for some hurt my head so I am going try this again. Your right that it is hard for Islam to grow in an Islamic country which is why it doesn't matter at all if the government of Saudi Arabia doesn't allow chruches. This would have no effect on someone from the US from converting to Islam as your previous point seemed to be hinting at. your point fails, again.

All right, sorry about that. I didn't mean to be so harsh. [resists urge to make scathing comment about advocating Israeli genocide] The fact remains that I feel that this does come across as somewhat arrogant, 'Islam is so much better than the West'

It wasn't meant to come across as such. I am from the west, I live in the west, I do not want the west to be destroyed or anything like that. I was merely pointing out some problems I noticied with our society as whole. I mentioned Islam because I think it would help fix at least in a small way problems with our society. In reality an increase in faith period whether it be Christianity, judaism, or others would help our society.

It wasn't meant to come across as such. I am from the west, I live in the west, I do not want the west to be destroyed or anything like that. I was merely pointing out some problems I noticied with our society as whole. I mentioned Islam because I think it would help fix at least in a small way problems with our society. In reality an increase in faith period whether it be Christianity, judaism, or others would help our society.

Ok. What will Islam fix?

Ok. What will Islam fix?

The emptiness, the materialism, and it'd go a long way to reducing crime.

The emptiness, the materialism, and it'd go a long way to reducing crime.

I'm laughing so hard right now, I couldn't help but tell you.

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Put down the hash pipe. I think you've had enough today.

The emptiness, the materialism, and it'd go a long way to reducing crime.

Emptiness? It's a matter of opinion. Emptiness is a claim of religion as an attempt to suggest you are worst off since you are not part of the group.

Materialism is not the cause of crime? If only it was that simple. Even in Islam, business is business. How much do prices go up for Ramadan?

Religion is the answer for some people.

Religion is also the source of some of the great atrocities of man.

The emptiness, the materialism, and it'd go a long way to reducing crime.

Yeah, cutting off thieves' hands reduces crime alright.

Yeah, cutting off thieves' hands reduces crime alright.

So does stoning adulterers, lol.

So does stoning adulterers, lol.

And giving 90 lashes to rape victims and only 50 to the rapists. ;)

It seems most in the west are empty. They fill their lives with material things and things like sexual devancy and nudity. This materialism and immorality flows through society and the media. The west has the highest depression and suicide rates in the world despite being the most wealthy. Why? Because most in the west are without purpose and without Allah. On top of this most in the west are unwillingly to fight for anything anymore, leaving the west weak. It seems this sort of hollowness and weakness will lead to problems in future. So how can we correct this, or do you think it does not correcting at all?

Its not empty, its bloated with money flowing into the coffers of a very few powerful people.

Sexual "deviancy" isn't a bad thing, suicide happens because people are tired of being screwed by the system. We have purpose: being the wage slaves of rich multinational corporations. Giving praise to Allah won't change this, you've never seen a mother fight to provide for her children (that's certainly not weakness). Life is hollow because people live to work, but they still continue to endure.

I'm skeptical of the standard solution because praises to God or Allah or the Great Pumpkin and calls for return to religious life often end with lots of beheadings and witch hunts.

Its not empty, its bloated with money flowing into the coffers of a very few powerful people.

Sexual "deviancy" isn't a bad thing, suicide happens because people are tired of being screwed by the system. We have purpose: being the wage slaves of rich multinational corporations.

Oh, that's excellent. The solution isn't islam, it's communism. "Why use a bad system when you can use another bad system that proved it's badness 1917-1991!"

Oh, that's excellent. The solution isn't islam, it's communism. "Why use a bad system when you can use another bad system that proved it's badness 1917-1991!"

No, I'm talking about a good system that is diametrically oppossed to both soviet "communism" and modern state capitalism. It's called libertarian socialism. It works: it worked in the past and it will work now. Just look at the Spanish Revolution.

No, I'm talking about a good system that is diametrically oppossed to both soviet "communism" and modern state capitalism.

This is coming from a guy named "Trotskylvania."

It's called libertarian socialism. It works: it worked in the past and it will work now. Just look at the Spanish Revolution.

Yeah, I believe the fascists won that one.

This is coming from a guy named "Trotskylvania."

Yeah, I believe the fascists won that one.

There's this nifty little thing called "sarcasm". You'd do well to learn it.

The fascists won because they had foreign support and the Republicans were also crushing the revolution as well. It was caught between two pincers.

There's this nifty little thing called "sarcasm". You'd do well to learn it.

Sarcasm rarely applies to usernames. There's a guy name "Fourth Holy Reich"? He actually means it.

The fascists won because they had foreign support and the Republicans were also crushing the revolution as well. It was caught between two pincers.

The Republicans has foreign support too.

Sarcasm rarely applies to usernames. There's a guy name "Fourth Holy Reich"? He actually means it.

Well, it does in this case. Apparently you missed the thread I posted where I talked about how much I despise Leninism.

The Republicans has foreign support too.

That's irreleavant. The anarchist revolutionaries had no foreign support. Both the Fascists and the Republicans waged total war on them.

it'd go a long way to reducing crime.

probably why there is low crime rate in islamic countries....not (got that from Borat..:p )

What concern is it of yours or anyone but the individuals themselves if they want to eat, drink, smoke, and fuck themselves to death?

So does stoning adulterers, lol.

I prefer adultering stoners.

I admit islam does reduce crime. If I faced an insanely disproportionate and sickeningly brutal punishment, and then had to go to hell too, I probably wouldnt commit crimes. Not that I do, despite being an atheist heretic. Although many everyday activities in the west are terrible crimes in Islam.