NationStates Jolt Archive

In the last two days I have heard two specific statements by individuals claiming the government is intentionally ripping off its citizens, for whatever reason.

The first was a conservative claiming that social security was a way for liberal governments to win votes now at the expense of the future.

The second was a liberal claiming that propositions for flat taxes and fair taxes were a way for the government to give special treatment to rich people.

I have always been of the mind that government can be misguided, (in fact I believe it is frequently misguided), but I have never doubted that the people in it are trying to do the right thing when they have a chance.

What do you guys think?

In the last two days I have heard two specific statements by individuals claiming the government is intentionally ripping off its citizens, for whatever reason.

The first was a conservative claiming that social security was a way for liberal governments to win votes now at the expense of the future.

The second was a liberal claiming that propositions for flat taxes and fair taxes were a way for the government to give special treatment to rich people.

I have always been of the mind that government can be misguided, (in fact I believe it is frequently misguided), but I have never doubted that the people in it are trying to do the right thing when they have a chance.

What do you guys think?


The answer to your question is Yes. The only thing we need to determine is about what. This time.

In the last two days I have heard two specific statements by individuals claiming the government is intentionally ripping off its citizens, for whatever reason.

The first was a conservative claiming that social security was a way for liberal governments to win votes now at the expense of the future.

The second was a liberal claiming that propositions for flat taxes and fair taxes were a way for the government to give special treatment to rich people.

I have always been of the mind that government can be misguided, (in fact I believe it is frequently misguided), but I have never doubted that the people in it are trying to do the right thing when they have a chance.

What do you guys think?

And when you're talking about Social Security and taxes, there will always be someone around to call either one a rip-off. Is the government deliberately ripping off the citizens? I don't think so, though sometimes laws are drafted so poorly it may appear that way.

I have always been of the mind that government can be misguided, (in fact I believe it is frequently misguided), but I have never doubted that the people in it are trying to do the right thing when they have a chance.

What do you guys think?
The problem with your question is that it treats the government as though it's a hive mind, a monolithic institution with a particular goal in mind. There are probably individuals in government who are true believers and who are trying to do right by their constituents. There are plenty of them--the majority in my opinion--who are out for themselves and for the people who give them campaign contributions first, last, and always.

Taxes are the legal way for the government to take your money, while preventing you from whining because it's in the law.

So... duh! Yeah, they are scamming us. It's just legal that's all.

The apparatus of government doesn't really have any violition of it own.

It is controlled by people however. And not infrequently those people do intentionally scam the taxpayer for personal gain. Often conspiring with their buddies outside of government to achieve those ends.

I have always been of the mind that government can be misguided, (in fact I believe it is frequently misguided), but I have never doubted that the people in it are trying to do the right thing when they have a chance.

What do you guys think?

I think you've been incredibly naïve.

The government consists of two groups: politicians and bureaucrats. The goal of politicians is to win votes. That's all. Their primary goal is to get votes, and everything else is secondary.

The purpose of the bureaucracy is to grow. Bigger budgets, more spending, more bureaucrats...

Neither side has an incentive to govern well. So why would they bother?

A couple of days ago I read a story about the army buying a bunch of golf balls. Seems as the guy who ordered them had them listed as ball bearings and has been ripping the army off with similiar schemes for a while.

What The Nazz said...

Except that the federal government, anyway, is almost a monolith. So is DMV, but a different kind. The Fed has so much administrative power that it almost doesn't matter what elected officials do, anymore. I'm not talking about direct taxation, but more subtle things like regulation of particular industries.

Increased regulations costs each of us as surely as if we had been taxed. Look at this CO2 thing that's going through the courts. Right or wrong, if the states win and the EPA has to regulate CO2 emissions, we are going to pay a lot more for our cars and any other things that require CO2 emissions to make or run.

Hell, we might have to buy emissions credits so that we can breathe hard after a run!

Let me sum it up, the government operates like any other virus. It keeps trying to grow itself any way it can. Our compliance is the host that it needs.

Let me sum it up, the government operates like any other virus. It keeps trying to grow itself any way it can. Our compliance is the host that it needs.
Very well said. Excellent sound bite.

A state with coercive powers will use that power to take away from an unknowing populace (rent-seeking from the rationally ignorant, in public choice terms) to those who have in interest in receiving support and giving it to the state. To suggest otherwise is akin to suggesting that rain is dry.

What The Nazz said...

Except that the federal government, anyway, is almost a monolith. So is DMV, but a different kind. The Fed has so much administrative power that it almost doesn't matter what elected officials do, anymore. I'm not talking about direct taxation, but more subtle things like regulation of particular industries....Let me sum it up, the government operates like any other virus. It keeps trying to grow itself any way it can. Our compliance is the host that it needs.

I totally agree, and I would also like to point out that for us liberals/leftists/whatevers that support social programs and government funding for healthcare and education have to watch out for this even more than our right/libertarian/whatever friends simply because we are asking the government to do more, thus opening a path of 'infection' for this virus called bureaucracy.