NationStates Jolt Archive

Wonder what they will do when a foreign diplomat passes thru or when somebody with dual citizenship displays both flags...lol..:D :p

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/20/navarrette.flag/
SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- This is where we've arrived in this country: You have the constitutional right to burn an American flag, but you can get into trouble for simply flying a foreign one.

At least you can in the 30,000-person town of Pahrump, Nevada, which is close to Las Vegas and even closer to stepping over the line with an idiotic, intolerant and insulting ban on foreign (read: Mexican) flags. The town council voted last week, 3-2, to approve an ordinance that makes it illegal to display a foreign flag -- unless an American flag is flown above it. Scofflaws face a $50 fine and 30 hours of community service.

Pahrump resident Michael Miraglia proposed the ban because, he said, he got upset when he saw immigrant activists marching through U.S. cities last spring, waving Mexican flags. Mr. Miraglia told USA Today that he was especially miffed that "we had Mexican restaurants closed that day."

So that's what started all this -- the fact that some guy couldn't get his burrito fix. It's our cultural schizophrenia. Americans love Mexican food, even if they don't always love Mexicans. They never ask themselves: If they succeed in getting rid of all the Mexicans -- as some would, no doubt, like to do -- who's going to make the food?

For the record, I don't think people should wave flags of countries they left behind or celebrate one country while demanding rights from another. But just because you'd like to see a given outcome -- i.e., immigrants putting foreign flags in mothballs -- doesn't mean you should use the coercive power of government to bring it about. The end does not justify the means.

Besides, the spectacle with the Mexican flags was no different than what happened a few weeks later when American Jews marched in Los Angeles and New York, waiving the Israeli flag to show support for Israel in its war against Hezbollah. About that, there were few complaints.

What gives someone the right to wave a foreign flag anyway? Answer: The First Amendment. Bans like the one in Pahrump are almost certainly unlawful and unconstitutional, leaving one to wonder, about Mr. Miraglia and the Pahrump Town Council, what part of illegal don't they understand?

What I don't understand is how immigration restrictionists can still insist, with a straight face, that the immigration debate and its offshoots haven't become anti-Mexican. When people brush aside distinctions of legal versus illegal immigrants and start banning the Mexican flag, what else do you call it?

As my friends in Texas say, I may have been born at night -- but I wasn't born last night.

At moments like this, I barely recognize my own country. Americans confronted slavery, the Great Depression, the Third Reich, and racial injustice here at home. Now some of us tremble at the sight of a piece of cloth. How sad. We're a bigger people than that. Even if some of us, now and then, tend to forget it.

Ah, was that freedom of expression I just saw leaving Pahrump?

Yay Fascism!

Wonder what they will do when a foreign diplomat passes thru or when somebody with dual citizenship displays both flags...lol..:D :p

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/20/navarrette.flag/

I like the last bolded line

And here we have another display of american stupidity

Already covered a while ago

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=507456&highlight=pahrump

And here we have another display of american stupidity

Stupidity is everywhere. Only when it manifests in America it is reported more widely.

Stupidity is everywhere. Only when it manifests in America it is reported more widely.

Mainly because it makes those in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere feel better about the stupidity in their own countries to know that the most powerful country in the world can be stupid too.

Aiyah sometimes America makes me feel bad to be an American...

Stupidity is everywhere. Only when it manifests in America it is reported more widely.

Go figure trends on the nation with the single biggest effect on the world is wildly reported.

Thats like bitching when a celebrity gets too much attention, DUH they are a public figure their flaws as well as their strengths are more wildly broadcast then the average person.

Laws like that are never meant to be enforced and are often made so some politician can make a political statement with no "downside". If someone was actually charged with this it would be struck down by the courts. The point is, the headlines and the political benefits have already been derived at that point, so for politicians it doesnt matter even if it gets struck down later, and even if that happens, then they can soapbox grandstand vs "activist" judges. Its a win/win for the politicians.

Go figure trends on the nation with the single biggest effect on the world is wildly reported.

Thats like bitching when a celebrity gets too much attention, DUH they are a public figure their flaws as well as their strengths are more wildly broadcast then the average person.

Stupidity in China is not reported that much...

Oh wait - you ment the US (I'm joking.... for now...)


Honestly - As someone who lives outside the US I can tell you that most of the people who widely report these random incidents as examples of American stupidity do so out of jealousy or a sense of inferiority towards America.

So that's what started all this -- the fact that some guy couldn't get his burrito fix. It's our cultural schizophrenia. Americans love Mexican food, even if they don't always love Mexicans. They never ask themselves: If they succeed in getting rid of all the Mexicans -- as some would, no doubt, like to do -- who's going to make the food?

AmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing!

Hehe. Screw'em!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Deutschland.gif

I've been to Pahrump (my soon to be ex sister in law is from there), and I'm not going to worry about how a bunch of backwards, slack-jawed rednecks want to outlaw (illegaly as pointed out previously) flying a foreign flag. Let them stew in their own ignorance.

Oh, and foriegn diplomats would have diplomatic immunity. Duh.

Wonder what they will do when a foreign diplomat passes thru or when somebody with dual citizenship displays both flags...lol..:D :p

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/20/navarrette.flag/

*shrug* When that happens the Pahrumpian government can apply whatever penalties are involved, the person in question can appeal and we'll watch the silly ordinance get struck down as it deserves.

This is boring. You want to talk about silliness in America, it seems Britney Spears has taken Paris Hilton as her new role model.

1) old news.

2) It's Illegal to fly a Foreign Flag ALONE. if the US flag is flown above it (proper Flag Etiquette anyway)

3) Everyone admits it's a "Feel Good" law, they don't see anyone really enforcing it.

Everyone admits it's a "Feel Good" law, they don't see anyone really enforcing it.

is there any particular reason we should actively work towards making racist asshats feel good?

Stupidity in China is not reported that much...

Oh wait - you ment the US (I'm joking.... for now...)


Honestly - As someone who lives outside the US I can tell you that most of the people who widely report these random incidents as examples of American stupidity do so out of jealousy or a sense of inferiority towards America.

I don't mind reporting them even as a native of the USA ... hopefully bringing them to light provides enough social pressure for us to change

I don't mind reporting them even as a native of the USA ... hopefully bringing them to light provides enough social pressure for us to change

Yes its about time we show america their stupidity, maybe they will pick up a book now

It's Illegal to fly a Foreign Flag ALONE. if the US flag is flown above it (proper Flag Etiquette anyway)

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
See rule # 11

2) It's Illegal to fly a Foreign Flag ALONE. if the US flag is flown above it (proper Flag Etiquette anyway)


Do you have a source that you cannot fly a foreign flag alone?

is there any particular reason we should actively work towards making racist asshats feel good?

How is requiring the flying of the American flag in the proper formation in an American town/city racist?

How is requiring the flying of the American flag in the proper formation in an American town/city racist?

Only it's not the proper formation. The US flag is not supposed to be above a foreign flag.

Do you have a source that you cannot fly a foreign flag alone?read the article.
second paragraph infact.

At least you can in the 30,000-person town of Pahrump, Nevada, which is close to Las Vegas and even closer to stepping over the line with an idiotic, intolerant and insulting ban on foreign (read: Mexican) flags. The town council voted last week, 3-2, to approve an ordinance that makes it illegal to display a foreign flag -- unless an American flag is flown above it. Scofflaws face a $50 fine and 30 hours of community service.

I think this is more about the illegal immigrant issue than flag etiquette. Unfortunately, some people would prefer to enact stupid laws that face this very difficult issue.

1) old news.

2) It's Illegal to fly a Foreign Flag ALONE. if the US flag is flown above it (proper Flag Etiquette anyway)

3) Everyone admits it's a "Feel Good" law, they don't see anyone really enforcing it.

Untill some old grandma or family gets sucker punched in the face 10 years down the road cause some hick neighbor has a qualm about it

Personally I don't think we should be making random laws just to make people "Feel good" specially when it does no good now and can cause harm to someone later

read the article.
second paragraph infact.

Then your statement in its original context makes no sense, why just restate what the article said as a separate point in what appears to be a post trying to justify this law?

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
See rule # 11

Only it's not the proper formation. The US flag is not supposed to be above a foreign flag.

and that rule is for seperate flagpoles, the law is making it for both flags on one flagpole. and if you check the order, it still works.

now unless you would rather people display both flags in their proper order, that would take up more room as people would then be required to install another flagpole...

Personally I don't think we should be making random laws just to make people "Feel good" specially when it does no good now and can cause harm to someone later

Especially when it discriminates against someone else. Besides, you shouldn't force patriotism on anyone.

How is requiring the flying of the American flag in the proper formation in an American town/city racist?

because the driving force behind this was some dude pissed off at mexicans not keeping quiet and knowing their place.

and the state isn't allowed to require the proper anything when it comes to flags - we already won that battle.

I think this is more about the illegal immigrant issue than flag etiquette. Unfortunately, some people would prefer to enact stupid laws that face this very difficult issue.

Damn straight it is. The only "foreign" flags people have in mind with this law is Latin American ones. This law is targetted against freedom of expression by Hispanic immigrants.

now unless you would rather people display both flags in their proper order, that would take up more room as people would then be required to install another flagpole...

I'm sure most people would rather install that second flagpole than face the mockery of having their flag underneath the flag of another nation, which is a grossly offencive, and imperialist act.

and that rule is for seperate flagpoles, the law is making it for both flags on one flagpole. and if you check the order, it still works.

TheUS Flag Code (http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#175) says:

(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

So no, it doesn't work.

now unless you would rather people display both flags in their proper order, that would take up more room as people would then be required to install another flagpole...

Lots of places where I live have 3 flagpoles. One for the USA, one for Michigan, and one for Canada.

and the state isn't allowed to require the proper anything when it comes to flags - we already won that battle.

Well, to be pedantic they do have the right to create rules about the display of their state flags.

Can I fly a burning foreign flag on its own? You see, I'm British. It;s not completely improbable that I would to burn my country's flag without fear of prosecution, whilst visitng or passing through the area in question.

Can I fly a burning foreign flag on its own? You see, I'm British. It;s not completely improbable that I would to burn my country's flag without fear of prosecution, whilst visitng or passing through the area in question.

I dunno. Are you allowed to burn a flying flag? That might wind up breaking some air traffic laws.

I dunno. Are you allowed to burn a flying flag? That might wind up breaking some air traffic laws.

And it could be a fire hazard, which gets you in trouble in a whole lot of other ways.

It used to be illegal to use the my countries logo or symbol on clothes, now u just cant hang it next to a mattress

And here we have another display of american stupidity

Actually not so much

Radical Pro-Illigeal immigrant groups have in several areas of California and Arizona forced their way into public sites and raised the flag of mexico with chants (in spanish) of "This is Mexico, go back to your own country"

thats why the law was passed

It used to be illegal to use the my countries logo or symbol on clothes, now u just cant hang it next to a mattress
??? Please to be explaining.

Actually not so much

Radical Pro-Illigeal immigrant groups have in several areas of California and Arizona forced their way into public sites and raised the flag of mexico with chants (in spanish) of "This is Mexico, go back to your own country"

thats why the law was passed

How can you force your way into a public site?

??? Please to be explaining.

You see when National Day comes, For a month before and after the actual celebration, the people of singapore will Hang the flags of singapore out. Now 86% of people live in HDB Flats, like an aparment. And they have a corridor that leads to houses where people always hang stuff to dry, its illegal to hang clothes over the flag, its also illegal to place underwear next to the flag and some other stuff

They should change the name of the town to Podunk, Nevada.

Dumb, embarrassing, whiny hicks.

That might wind up breaking some air traffic laws.

With good cause.

Untill some old grandma or family gets sucker punched in the face 10 years down the road cause some hick neighbor has a qualm about it

Personally I don't think we should be making random laws just to make people "Feel good" specially when it does no good now and can cause harm to someone laterCheck the laws for your state, you'll find a whole slew of stupid laws that haven't been retracted. laws that make it illegal to say "Oh Boy" (Jonesboro, Georgia)

Your neighbor wants to borrow your vaccum? better not be in Denver, Colorado.

and it's not just limited to America. in Calgary there is a by-law that is still on the books that requires businesses within the city to provide rails for tying up horses.

other silly laws. (http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/sillylaws.html)

now, I can just see people saying, well someone should remove those laws. well, someone has to pay those people to remove those laws... not to mention going through the procedures to remove those laws... your tax dollars at work. so go ahead and look em up and then prosecute those that beak em. good luck.

Then your statement in its original context makes no sense, why just restate what the article said as a separate point in what appears to be a post trying to justify this law?my statement in it's orginal context is that it's illegal to fly a foreign flag alone, while others are assuming that flying a foreign flag is Illegal. even the title of the CNN article makes it sound like flying foreign flags are now illegal in pahrumph.

As a libertarian I think all this flag shit is just worshoipping false idols. I think it is a riot that so much angst goes into laws about a flag that represents liberty.

But almost every civilized country has some sort of stupid laws about their national flag -- disposing of it, flying it at night, blah balh.

I sincerely doubt that a constitutional challenge to this ordinance would stand. US towns are allowed to have moronic laws unfortunately, that is "home rule". When they are challenged they can be struck down (at great expense and effort).

There is one town out west, Texas or something, that requires every citizen to own a gun (or did at one point).

TheUS Flag Code (http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#175) says:



So no, it doesn't work.actually it does, even if it's flown on a seperate pole, the foreign flag is not being flown alone. the state law makes it clear for flying flags on the same pole.



Lots of places where I live have 3 flagpoles. One for the USA, one for Michigan, and one for Canada.on private property?

Check the laws for your state, you'll find a whole slew of stupid laws that haven't been retracted. laws that make it illegal to say "Oh Boy" (Jonesboro, Georgia)

Your neighbor wants to borrow your vaccum? better not be in Denver, Colorado.

and it's not just limited to America. in Calgary there is a by-law that is still on the books that requires businesses within the city to provide rails for tying up horses.

other silly laws. (http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/sillylaws.html)

now, I can just see people saying, well someone should remove those laws. well, someone has to pay those people to remove those laws... not to mention going through the procedures to remove those laws... your tax dollars at work. so go ahead and look em up and then prosecute those that beak em. good luck.

my statement in it's orginal context is that it's illegal to fly a foreign flag alone, while others are assuming that flying a foreign flag is Illegal. even the title of the CNN article makes it sound like flying foreign flags are now illegal in pahrumph.

I agree tones of silly laws ... why are we not mad at them making more of them?

The existence of idiot laws should not preclude us from trying to stop them from making new ones specially when the new one restricts freedom of expression

actually it does, even if it's flown on a seperate pole, the foreign flag is not being flown alone. the state law makes it clear for flying flags on the same pole.

But the US Flag Code says you can't fly them on the same pole, and that both flags must be at the same height.

he town council voted last week, 3-2, to approve an ordinance that makes it illegal to display a foreign flag -- unless an American flag is flown above it.

They're saying the US flag must be flown above a foreign flag, which the US Flag Code prohibits.

on private property?

Businesses, yes. State government buildings just have 2, with the US and state flags, while US govt buildings (the post office is the only one in town) has the US and POW flags.

There aren't a whole lot of houses with flagpoles here, mostly you get the angled things that attach to the side of a house or something on top of a house, and those generally have the US and Michigan flags on one pole.

I agree tones of silly laws ... why are we not mad at them making more of them?

The existence of idiot laws should not preclude us from trying to stop them from making new ones specially when the new one restricts freedom of expression

it's not restricting Freedom of Expression. think about it. you have a full scale flag of mexico... so fastened right above it? you put a small, hand flag of the USA. Does the law state that the American flag needs to be of equal or greater size? no, just that it needs to be flown above it.

And does it state how high above the flag the US Flag needs to be flown? if not, a parade of Mexican Nationals through the streets of Parumph can be accompanied by a plane displaying the American Flag above it... 200+ feet above them... ;)

it's not restricting Freedom of Expression. think about it. you have a full scale flag of mexico... so fastened right above it? you put a small, hand flag of the USA. Does the law state that the American flag needs to be of equal or greater size? no, just that it needs to be flown above it.

And does it state how high above the flag the US Flag needs to be flown? if not, a parade of Mexican Nationals through the streets of Parumph can be accompanied by a plane displaying the American Flag above it... 200+ feet above them... ;)

Sure it is ... I want to express my opinion by flying the other flag above the USA's

That is expressing a viewpoint

That expression is being restricted for no pragmatic reason other then people "don't like it" They are just adding another silly law to the book

Does the law state that the American flag needs to be of equal or greater size?

The US Flag Code does.

(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

Of course, Paruhmp, NV doesn't seem to care about the proper display of the flag.

I dunno. Are you allowed to burn a flying flag? That might wind up breaking some air traffic laws.

And the pilot wouldn't like to have a burning flag in the plane.

But the US Flag Code says you can't fly them on the same pole, and that both flags must be at the same height.

They're saying the US flag must be flown above a foreign flag, which the US Flag Code prohibits.

from one of the Flag Code links.
The Flag Code is intended as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag.

also
International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace. displaying the US flag on US soil by Civilians is not an International usage.



Businesses, yes. State government buildings just have 2, with the US and state flags, while US govt buildings (the post office is the only one in town) has the US and POW flags. but this law is for civilian display of flags.

There aren't a whole lot of houses with flagpoles here, mostly you get the angled things that attach to the side of a house or something on top of a house, and those generally have the US and Michigan flags on one pole.*Nods* which is a state flag.

but note, it states the US flag be flown above the displayed flag. what can be argued is what is displayed? is it only publicly displayed flags? then the Mexican flag hung over the fireplace in someone's living room is excempt.

as I mentioned in another post, is size mentioned? if not, then a small hand flag draped off the top would satisfy that law.

as I said, and as they said in the other previous thread, it's a feel good law that they really can see enforcing. and this was that officals at Parumph talking.

from one of the Flag Code links.

Yes, and the words "proper respect for the flag" should be noted.

displaying the US flag on US soil by Civilians is not an International usage.

What the Flag Code is saying is that the reason you don't fly one above the other is because it's not done in international usage. Flying one nations flag over another is extremely disrespectful of the nation whose flag is on bottom. Again, I don't have a problem with people disrespecting a flag, but they should come right out and say that's what they're doing.

but this law is for civilian display of flags.

Right, which is what the US Flag Code is for. As you said, it's voluntary, but it's the accepted method of respecting the flag. What Parumhp is doing contrary to the flag code and is thus disrespectful to the flag. I've no problem with people disrespecting the flag, free speech and all, just as long as they're not trying to tell me they're respecting it by disrespecting it.

*Nods* which is a state flag.

Yes, which is permitted to be under the US flag if on the same pole. Flags of foreign states are not.

but note, it states the US flag be flown above the displayed flag. what can be argued is what is displayed? is it only publicly displayed flags? then the Mexican flag hung over the fireplace in someone's living room is excempt.

I haven't read the full text of the law, but that's probably right.

as I mentioned in another post, is size mentioned? if not, then a small hand flag draped off the top would satisfy that law.

Which strikes me as being quite disrespectful of the US flag. If that's what they're intending, they should come out and say it, but for some reason I don't think that's what they had in mind.

as I said, and as they said in the other previous thread, it's a feel good law that they really can see enforcing. and this was that officals at Parumph talking.

So that makes it alright?

So that makes it alright?
it's their right to pass whatever laws they want. they cannot enforce those laws outside of their boundaries, so yes, for that town, it's alright.

of course, it's also alright for people to challange those laws. ;)

How can you force your way into a public site?

basically angry rabble goes to yee old post office or other public site where their is a US flag

they remove the US flag and tell the controling legal authority of the building to go pound sand