NationStates Jolt Archive

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

simple, He chooses NOT to use his all knowing/All powerful might and allows us to make our own choices. He places the opportunities in our path and he allows us to choose the path we wish to take.
Remember, he also keeps his Word. So He won't go where He's not wanted.

I've got a couple things:

1. Think of it this way, if you were all powerful, would you create something that was "perfect"? Or would you create something that had the capacity to go against your will? If there is no free will, then there is no choice, and then what does God do all day? There's no need for God to judge, because the outcome is a forgone conclusion.

2. Angels and Demons has a great discussion: "If God is all knowing, all powerful, and loves us, then why does he allow pain and suffering to exist?"

As a father, the answer struck a cord with me:

Do you have a child?

Yes.

Do you love him? Would you do everything in your power to protect him and keep him safe from harm?

Of course!

Do you let him ride a skate board?

Sure...

Can't he fall off the skate board and scrape a knee? How do you reconcile that?

Well...he has to learn sometime.



Pain is part of the learning process. Without pain, without failure, learning doesn't take place. Anyone who works with their hands will tell you that there's no more powerful teacher than failure. You learn the most from your failures, and you learn quickest when you fail. The experience is even more powerful when you have to correct the failure yourself.

Another way of looking at the term "all powerful" is to suggest the semantic equivilence of "That which cannot be done" and "That which an all-powerful entity cannot do". In other words, an all-powerful entity cannot cause true to be false, since the ability to do so is not a power that can exist.

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

Congratulations, you have now joined millions of others in being discombobolated by the Bible and it's contradictions.

simple, He chooses NOT to use his all knowing/All powerful might and allows us to make our own choices. He places the opportunities in our path and he allows us to choose the path we wish to take.
Remember, he also keeps his Word. So He won't go where He's not wanted.
That reply made anything i would have said redundant but i agree.

2. Angels and Demons has a great discussion: "If God is all knowing, all powerful, and loves us, then why does he allow pain and suffering to exist?"
As a father, the answer struck a cord with me:
Do you have a child?
Yes.
Do you love him? Would you do everything in your power to protect him and keep him safe from harm?
Of course!
Do you let him ride a skate board?
Sure...
Can't he fall off the skate board and scrape a knee? How do you reconcile that?
Well...he has to learn sometime.
Pain is part of the learning process. Without pain, without failure, learning doesn't take place. Anyone who works with their hands will tell you that there's no more powerful teacher than failure. You learn the most from your failures, and you learn quickest when you fail. The experience is even more powerful when you have to correct the failure yourself.

And the suffering that involve...say...Dying, for instance? What are we to learn from that failure, because of course, it's always the suffering person's fault.

And the suffering that involve...say...Dying, for instance? What are we to learn from that failure, because of course, it's always the suffering person's fault.

We learn that God is right-wing.

As a devout Christian-turned Athiest, I ask you this question: where in the Bible are these claims made? The nature of God is something you can only grasp within your heart and soul, as something that great cannot be understood by the mind.

Perhaps god is so all-knowing that, even with free will, he knows what we will choose?

Perhaps god is so all-knowing that, even with free will, he knows what we will choose?

If he is all-knowing, then he will know how to make that big rock that is so big that he can't move....

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

knowledge /=/ action

and being all powerful doesn't mean you have to use all of your powers all the time, God probably has a huge amount of self control.

I've got a couple things:

1. Think of it this way, if you were all powerful, would you create something that was "perfect"? Or would you create something that had the capacity to go against your will? If there is no free will, then there is no choice, and then what does God do all day? There's no need for God to judge, because the outcome is a forgone conclusion.
As god IS all knowing, there is nothing to judge. God knows what you will do, thus it is a forgone conclusion. Otherwise he isn't all knowing.

2. Angels and Demons has a great discussion: "If God is all knowing, all powerful, and loves us, then why does he allow pain and suffering to exist?"

As a father, the answer struck a cord with me:

Do you have a child?

Yes.

Do you love him? Would you do everything in your power to protect him and keep him safe from harm?

Of course!

Do you let him ride a skate board?

Sure...

Can't he fall off the skate board and scrape a knee? How do you reconcile that?

Well...he has to learn sometime.
But you are Not all powerful. Thus you are constrained in the way you can teach your child. God isn't. God could create the child with all the knowledge he needs. God could create a world of total bliss and no suffering. Any response of "you need to know suffering to understand joy" doesn't take in to account an all powerful deity. Our world is that way, but an all powerful deity can change anything. He can make the illogical, logical. If he can't he isn't all powerful.
He can make 1 = 2. He can make a rock he can't move. We can't understand how that is possible, as it beggars all logic, but we aren't all powerful, or all knowing. An all powerful being could do it.


Pain is part of the learning process. Without pain, without failure, learning doesn't take place. Anyone who works with their hands will tell you that there's no more powerful teacher than failure. You learn the most from your failures, and you learn quickest when you fail. The experience is even more powerful when you have to correct the failure yourself.
In our world, yes. But it didn't have to be made that way. The way our world works, means god can not be all powerful and all knowing, without being a complete prick. There was another thread covering this sometime in the last 2 weeks, actually.

As a devout Christian-turned Athiest, I ask you this question: where in the Bible are these claims made? The nature of God is something you can only grasp within your heart and soul, as something that great cannot be understood by the mind.

which claims?

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

i dont see the problem. what does god knowing everthing have to do with your free will?

does my knowing that you started this thread negate your free will in starting it?

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

knowing what someone will do is not controlling them, it is still your choice.
Where does it state we have free will by the way I always hear that but I have never seen scripture cited to that fact.

i dont see the problem. what does god knowing everthing have to do with your free will?

does my knowing that you started this thread negate your free will in starting it?

No - but knowing it would happen in advance means it was 'destined' in some way - which compromises the idea that anything is 'choice'.

No - but knowing it would happen in advance means it was 'destined' in some way - which compromises the idea that anything is 'choice'.

i dont see why.

god seeing your whole life at once is like our seeing a movie. that the movie is done a certain way and cant be changed doesnt negate the choices made by the participants (meaning the scriptwriters, directors, actors).

what kind of a concept do y'all have of god? he existed before the universe, before time itself. he is not bound by the flow of time as we are. paradoxes are irrelevant when speaking of a being with such an existence (if you can call it existence)

As a devout Christian-turned Athiest, I ask you this question: where in the Bible are these claims made? The nature of God is something you can only grasp within your heart and soul, as something that great cannot be understood by the mind.
which claims?

I assume he means the ones in the OP:
In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will.

I'd actually be interested to see if the Bible does indeed say those things...

So Ashmoria since God seeing our lives is liek us watching a movie...which I can not change, as in I am incapable...not having the power to do so, are you then saying that God does not have the power to change a persons life, and if so then that defies the concept of an all poweful God.

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

He knows what we will do, He chooses to let us make our own mistakes, just as we sometimes as parents choose to allow our children to make theirs.

Do orange, green, yellow, and purple clothing go together in an aethetically pleasing manner? Most would say no. A child may insist, and a parent could let the child wear it and see the reactions such a combination will provoke.

The fact that God chooses not to act does not mean that He cannot.

I assume he means the ones in the OP:


I'd actually be interested to see if the Bible does indeed say those things...

not stated, no. just that God is Powerful and Wise.

I Think it was mentioned that God knows all, but that doesn't mean All knowing.

And the suffering that involve...say...Dying, for instance? What are we to learn from that failure, because of course, it's always the suffering person's fault.

Why is death anyone's fault, necessarily?

Christians believe that death is not an end; it's a change and new beginning. Fear of the unknown, grief of loss -- these are things we experience because we are not all-knowing and cling to the familiar.

Is it a fault for caterpillars to spin a cocoon and leave a dead husk behind as they fly off on newly grown wings?

I assume he means the ones in the OP:


I'd actually be interested to see if the Bible does indeed say those things...

Yeah, I am not familiar with scripture which says man has free will.

If he is all-knowing, then he will know how to make that big rock that is so big that he can't move....

I know how to pick my nose. That I choose never to do it does not mean I can't. :D

So Ashmoria since God seeing our lives is liek us watching a movie...which I can not change, as in I am incapable...not having the power to do so, are you then saying that God does not have the power to change a persons life, and if so then that defies the concept of an all poweful God.

no skib. im saying that you are making the movie that god is watching. you decide how you will react to whatever is happening to you, you make your own decisions.

if god wanted to change a persons life, that would be a violation of your free will but he can, if he chooses, do something in the world that might influence you to make a different choice than the one you might make without that action. the bible and many peoples' life experiences indicate that he does that.

god could have chosen to make a world with no free will. he could decide to take away our free will at any time. that he doesnt, doesnt mean he cant. the all knowing part just means he already knows what he will do, not that he couldnt do it.

time paradoxes are meaningless when talking about god.

Yeah, I am not familiar with scripture which says man has free will.

On the one hand..... and the other......


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html

I know how to pick my nose. That I choose never to do it does not mean I can't. :D

not a very daunting task, imho, unless there is something very particular about your nose, or yourself, or the relationship between the two...

He knows what we will do, He chooses to let us make our own mistakes, just as we sometimes as parents choose to allow our children to make theirs.

Do orange, green, yellow, and purple clothing go together in an aethetically pleasing manner? Most would say no. A child may insist, and a parent could let the child wear it and see the reactions such a combination will provoke.

The fact that God chooses not to act does not mean that He cannot.
Not true. God can't choose not to act. (except, of course, as he's all powerful, the logical contradiction I will show, god can ignore, but work with me on this.) When he makes us, he knows everything we will do. He knows if he makes us differently, we will behave differently. Thus he chose our behaviour. With an all knowing, all powerful god, we only have the illusion of free will, as god is the only one that could have changed our actions.

People often use parents teaching children, as an analogy with God. It fails, as we don't have absolute control over the creation of a child. Nor de we know everything that child will do. God does.

For the record. I'm an atheist. Anywhere I say in this thread "God does this" is based on the premise god is all knowing and all powerful for the purpose of debating the point the OP brought up.

Not true. God can't choose not to act.

He can't? Pray tell where you came to this conclusion. Humans can choose not to act; certainly God is able to do as much as a human can?

Not true. God can't choose not to act. (except, of course, as he's all powerful, the logical contradiction I will show, god can ignore, but work with me on this.) When he makes us, he knows everything we will do. He knows if he makes us differently, we will behave differently. Thus he chose our behaviour. With an all knowing, all powerful god, we only have the illusion of free will, as god is the only one that could have changed our actions.

People often use parents teaching children, as an analogy with God. It fails, as we don't have absolute control over the creation of a child. Nor de we know everything that child will do. God does.

For the record. I'm an atheist. Anywhere I say in this thread "God does this" is based on the premise god is all knowing and all powerful for the purpose of debating the point the OP brought up.

why cant god choose not to act?

in truth, even without god in the picture, our free will is extremely limited.

i cant choose to be black, i cant choose (now) to have gone to a different university, i cant choose to be prom queen (since that choice involves the votes of others) i cant choose to have an IQ of 200, i cant choose to be the child of bill gates, i cant choose to chat with socrates, i cant choose to run down a deer and tear its throat out with my claws.

so, to put god back in, the world that god created does imply certain behavior. people act the way people act not the way cats act. we have a perverse nature that causes us to act in destructive ways, god gave us that nature.

that does not keep us from the ability to make the small decisions we are allowed. god knowing how it turns out doesnt mean that we didnt decide it.

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

Anyone who says God places bad choices in our path is talking bollocks - there's no way a good God would do that. But yeh, it's seems to make sense that God knows what's going on, but because of free will allows us to make our own choices in regards to what's going on (and steps in in a few emergencies, for example when I was stuck at the side of a road, shortly after praying some Baptist Christians came to help me - presumably he gave them a feeling that told them someone needed help (or earlier gave them a feeling that someone would need help later), and they could choose to ignore it or listen to it because of free will - in other words, knowing what He knew, He put something there to let people know about it, but still allowed them to make their own choice about what, if anything, to do about it - so don't ignore you're frigging feelings people!).

<blah blah blah>
that does not keep us from the ability to make the small decisions we are allowed. god knowing how it turns out doesnt mean that we didnt decide it.

which is not to say that its not valid to suggest that free will doesnt exist, just that it CAN exist.

without free will you do have to tinker a bit with common christian theology in order to get to the "all loving" supposition about god. its not loving of god to create a serial killer, force him to kill, then damn him to hell for all eternity for his sins.

surely without free will, an all loving god must give all his creations the same afterlife since each and every one of them did his bidding.

which claims?

In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will.

One of the problem I am facing with my own personal faith is the extent of God's powers. In the Bible it says that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing. However it also states that we have free will. If we have free will, then how can God be all knowing and all powerful? Has anyone else run into this problem?

Why would you trust anything the bible says? It is just an unreliable amalgamation of older works and stories which has been translated and changed for hundreds and thousands of years.

If he is all-knowing, then he will know how to make that big rock that is so big that he can't move....

How would we test something like that?

Us: Make a rock so big you can't move it.

God: Heh. Sure. *makes rock*

Us: OK. Try to move it.

God: Can't.

Us: Um... promise?

simple, He chooses NOT to use his all knowing/All powerful might and allows us to make our own choices. He places the opportunities in our path and he allows us to choose the path we wish to take.
Remember, he also keeps his Word. So He won't go where He's not wanted.
I disagree (really, in a God thread with JuNii, this shouldn't be surprising ;) )

If you know something, you know it. I know that 2+2=4. I can plug my ears and cover my eyes all I want...I still know it. Either you know it or you don't. You cannot choose to not know something if you already possess the knowledge, only choose to lie about knowing it.

Now, if you want to argue that he has the potential to know it, but chooses not to, we still have the issue of free will. If he CAN know it, then the information is available somehow, which means that there is a pre-determined future, and we lack free will. If he cannot know it, he is not all-knowing, nor does he have the potential to be, but we have free will.

Free will is not compatible with the ability to know what will happen, be it practiced or not.

It would please you all to know that while reading this thread, I've made significant headway into my study over why Kelloggs Brand Apple Jacks do not taste like apples.

Free will is not compatible with the ability to know what will happen, be it practiced or not.Depends how you know what will happen. If you take a game of tic-tac-toe, you can simply write out all things that can happen; you can oversee the whole future of the game, even though you may not know the particular path in it two players may choose. And of course you ought to be able to spot the first player can always win, regardless of what the second does.
One might suppose God's knowledge of the future is of that sort; overseeing all possible choices, and likelihoods of where we end up.