NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

Time to go back to looking for an astronomy text . . .

i feel sorry for my fellow black people (my moms familiy were slaves)

You were freed, King died ti get you rights, and what now. Look at the stats, more black on welfare, under educated, crime and so on. King is probably spinning in his grave. You have all wasted so many chances to become a great people again. But no you listen to jesse jackson, fahrakan blah, who say the reason you are less-fortunate in not your fault, no it is the white man, always the bloody white man. Grow up and move on, dont ask for money from your slave parents, you did not work at all for it, move on and become succesful like other black lawyers, police officers, docters, bankers and so on. It is your fault.

Please rappers, rap about that like the good old day rappers, about rising up and becoming better those were good messages. Also you, dont be afraid to confront them about their slave horse beating. Hell if it were not for slavery, they would probably not be there when you think about it.

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

*ahem*

*expert voice* As a Certified Black Guy, I can tell you those guys are full of it.

Time to go back to looking for an astronomy text . . .

I've decided to just get her a teddy bear.

I've decided to just get her a teddy bear.

But make it one with a telescope! Oooo, romantic :fluffle:

I want reparations! My family didn't get here in time to profit from owning black people. America got rid of that scam before my folks could profit from it. Where's my money?!?!?!

Well dark-skinned Americans do have a legitimate argument. A lot of their problems today is because of slavery and hatred.

King is probably spinning in his grave.

King predicted exactly that unless certain reforms were made - reforms that, incidentally, were not made.

My one and only argument against the OP:

Do you see me whining about this? No. Then stop using a straw-man argument (as it looks like from your OP).

My one and only argument against the OP:

Do you see me whining about this?

Yes. Yes, I do.

*putting a gun to his head*

Boondocks: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47zcPZlsDrw), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr2RRfUDL0), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3sqLKUfDo)

The above is a single episode of Boondocks broken down into 3 parts.

Watch it. I think it makes a VERY excellent point about the plight of black African Americans then and now.

It proposes the idea: what if King hadn't died, but had been a coma for a great number of years and awoke today, what he think of today's world?

*putting a gun to his head*

Become an hero!

Become an hero!

Captain Gunhead!

Become an hero!

Nah- I wanna stick around for my compensation. Somewhere along the line, my people were oppressed by someone else's ancestors and I want I deserve enrichment.

You know, Wilgrove, I'm no great fan of the reparations argument, but it's really fucking stupid to act as though everything magically became equal for former slaves at the moment of emancipation. In fact, it's really fucking stupid to act as though we're not still dealing with the aftereffects of it today. Or has discrimination somehow ended in the last five minutes?

Wade through those affirmative action threads and look at the studies that have been linked to, the ones that show black men with a clean record are less likely to be called back for a job interview than white men with a prison record. Look at the ones that show housing discrimination. Look at the breakdowns of prison sentences for white defendants versus black ones for the same crimes.

So sure, reparations are a bad idea on a number of levels, not the least of which is the fact that most non-white taxpayers would really resent paying reparations for something neither they nor their ancestors were responsible for. But please, for the love of sanity, stop with the "God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now" bullshit.

As a woman, my "people" have been oppressed the longest, so there! :p

Really, only a few malingering twits complain about ancestors in slavery. I'm part Native American, and I think they have more to complain about.

Btw, I do have slave owning ancestors. I also have ancestors who came over as indentured servants.

Really, only a few malingering twits complain about ancestors in slavery. I'm part Native American, and I think they have more to complain about.
QFT.

As a woman, my "people" have been oppressed the longest, so there! :p
...Shouldn't you be cleaning something? *ducks* Kidding! :D

So sure, reparations are a bad idea on a number of levels, not the least of which is the fact that most non-white taxpayers would really resent paying reparations for something neither they nor their ancestors were responsible for.

"I am not responsible for the poverty of my neighbor; why should I pay for her food?"

"I am not responsible for the murders committed in my country; why should I pay for public police forces?"

"I am not responsible for Hurricane Katrina; why should I pay for clean-up efforts?"

Some things need to be done, irrelevantly of "responsibility."

"I am not responsible for the poverty of my neighbor; why should I pay for her food?"

"I am not responsible for the murders committed in my country; why should I pay for public police forces?"

"I am not responsible for Hurricane Katrina; why should I pay for clean-up efforts?"

Some things need to be done, irrelevantly of "responsibility."

Yes but in the case of reparations, you'd have to determine who, exactly, was descended from slaves. Skin color enough won't do it. And what level of descent are we talking about here? Will having a single drop of slave blood fill the bill? And let's not even get into the question of proving it--records from that era are sparse to say the least. It's an impossible task with nothing but unsatisactory outcomes for everyone. The better solution is to try to change attitudes toward race and, at the very least, bar discrimination however possible.

Yes but in the case of reparations, you'd have to determine who, exactly, was descended from slaves.

Why? There is no need to individually compensate everyone, just to invest funds to reverse the harm done by centuries of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.

Will having a single drop of slave blood fill the bill?

Suffering from deprivation caused by the legacy of racism will fill the bill.

Everything else is irrelevant.

The better solution is to try to change attitudes toward race and, at the very least, bar discrimination however possible.

I don't think this is an either/or decision.

Why? There is no need to individually compensate everyone, just to invest funds to reverse the harm done by centuries of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.
We call it "welfare".

Suffering from deprivation caused by the legacy of racism will fill the bill.

Everything else is irrelevant.

I suffer from the legacy of racism. And I'm white. Does that mean I still qualify from reparations?

We call it "welfare".

Yes... and providing effective and expanded welfare programs would be an important part of reparations.

Yes... and providing effective and expanded welfare programs would be an important part of reparations.

No... it would be an important part of social reform.

No... it would be an important part of social reform.

The two are hardly mutually exclusive.

Indeed, any genuine social reform would have to make up for the legacy of racism.

Boondocks: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47zcPZlsDrw), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr2RRfUDL0), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3sqLKUfDo)

The above is a single episode of Boondocks broken down into 3 parts.

Watch it. I think it makes a VERY excellent point about the plight of black African Americans then and now.

It proposes the idea: what if King hadn't died, but had been a coma for a great number of years and awoke today, what he think of today's world?

Boondocks = the savior of television. That show owns and shows blacks the error of their ways :D

Bill Cosby tried, and failed. Now it's the Boondock's turn.

The two are hardly mutually exclusive.

Indeed, any genuine social reform would have to make up for the legacy of racism.
This has broken down into a "no, you're wrong" argument.

In any case, you never answered my question:
I suffer from the legacy of racism. And I'm white. Does that mean I still qualify from reparations?

This has broken down into a "no, you're wrong" argument.

Perhaps because you have not advanced any argument at all. You have simply said, correctly, that social reform encompasses much of what should be done.

In any case, you never answered my question:

Depends on how.

All I can say on the matter is that my ancestors were honest, hardworking German immigrants to Ohio, Pennsyvannia and New York. They owned their own small farms and businesses and worked hard to make it in a new world. Some of them came to avoid the Prussian draft, some came to flee religious persecution, some came because they wanted to make a living in a country where their lives wouldn't be interfered with. Universally they sided with the Union, and they volunteered to fight in blue. They may have dodged the unjust draft of a King, but they stood up for freedom. They served in the Eastern and Western theaters in the Civil War, and they suffered wounds (but no deaths) and, in spite of the opportunity to receive discharges because they were injured, two of them stayed on and came back into the line.

If there is an ancestral debt some white people owe to some black people, it has no hold over my family.

And what if you're a descendant of one of those very few slaves who fought with the Confederacy? Do you owe yourself money?

If there is an ancestral debt some white people owe to some black people, it has no hold over my family.I feel that my slave owning ancestors are cancelled out by my Native American ancestors.
We can just have the people who owe the Cherokee and Commanche pay the African-Americans and leave me, the middle man, out of it. ;)

And what if you're a descendant of one of those very few slaves who fought with the Confederacy? Do you owe yourself money?

You owe yourself a thorough slapping.

And what if you're a descendant of one of those very few slaves who fought with the Confederacy? Do you owe yourself money?

I am a descendant of both slaves and slave-owners, and I have no objection to paying taxes for reparations.

Until the cow dies, apparently.

Until the cow dies, apparently.

That must be a painful way to go.

You know, Wilgrove, I'm no great fan of the reparations argument, but it's really fucking stupid to act as though everything magically became equal for former slaves at the moment of emancipation. In fact, it's really fucking stupid to act as though we're not still dealing with the aftereffects of it today. Or has discrimination somehow ended in the last five minutes?

Wade through those affirmative action threads and look at the studies that have been linked to, the ones that show black men with a clean record are less likely to be called back for a job interview than white men with a prison record. Look at the ones that show housing discrimination. Look at the breakdowns of prison sentences for white defendants versus black ones for the same crimes.

So sure, reparations are a bad idea on a number of levels, not the least of which is the fact that most non-white taxpayers would really resent paying reparations for something neither they nor their ancestors were responsible for. But please, for the love of sanity, stop with the "God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now" bullshit.

seconded

We call it "welfare".


I suffer from the legacy of racism. And I'm white. Does that mean I still qualify from reparations?

Yes, we all know there are no white people on welfare after all. Jackass

You owe yourself a thorough slapping.

Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous this could get. Like I said in my long post, to suggest that we're not still dealing with the aftermath even today is ludicrous, but reparations are an unworkable solution, to my mind.

Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous this could get. Like I said in my long post, to suggest that we're not still dealing with the aftermath even today is ludicrous, but reparations are an unworkable solution, to my mind.

Agreed.

Yes, we all know there are no white people on welfare after all. Jackass

Way more white than black, as a matter of fact. But LNI wouldn't think about that, I suppose.

Yes, we all know there are no white people on welfare after all. Jackass

Of course, that isn't what I said.

All I can say on the matter is that my ancestors were honest, hardworking German immigrants to Ohio, Pennsyvannia and New York. They owned their own small farms and businesses and worked hard to make it in a new world. Some of them came to avoid the Prussian draft, some came to flee religious persecution, some came because they wanted to make a living in a country where their lives wouldn't be interfered with. Universally they sided with the Union, and they volunteered to fight in blue. They may have dodged the unjust draft of a King, but they stood up for freedom. They served in the Eastern and Western theaters in the Civil War, and they suffered wounds (but no deaths) and, in spite of the opportunity to receive discharges because they were injured, two of them stayed on and came back into the line.

If there is an ancestral debt some white people owe to some black people, it has no hold over my family.

Mine didn't get here till 1908, on either side of the family. So nyah!

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

They'll milk it for awhile. Look at the Jews. They've been complaining about shit from hundreds of years ago.

I feel that my slave owning ancestors are cancelled out by my Native American ancestors.
We can just have the people who owe the Cherokee and Commanche pay the African-Americans and leave me, the middle man, out of it. ;)

He, quite funny, but both sides during the Civil War had quite large numbers of Native Americans, and they drew a great deal of respect among soldier from both sides.

So really, depending on the particular "Nation" you belong to, your ancestors were fighting either for the Union or the Confederacy, more than likely.

He, quite funny, but both sides during the Civil War had quite large numbers of Native Americans, and they drew a great deal of respect among soldier from both sides.

So really, depending on the particular "Nation" you belong to, your ancestors were fighting either for the Union or the Confederacy, more than likely.Or, potentially, against each other.

I am part native American. One ancestor was also the last white man to be killed by an 'Indian' in the county where my parents grew up in and he has a hsitorical marker. Anyways, it was the same area, so potentially the same tribe. So I could be descended from the people that murdered my ancestor! Fun.

This isn't really something to be "milked"...many theories looking at poverty in the black communites relate those problems with slavery...because once slavery ended blacks were free without any help in providing a structured family. This might be a reason to the single familyness of the black community, which correlates with poverty. Also, when slavery was around americans at the time justified it, by saying that blacks are not equal to us therefore its okay for them to be slaves, then when slavery ended the justification continued, even still today

So I don't know if you can really milk that. The average white american male has always been ahead. With ocupation and pay..so when others around you who feel equal but don't recieve that treatment get pissed...maybe try and understand the inequalities rather than view others so egocentrically

Boondocks: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47zcPZlsDrw), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr2RRfUDL0), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3sqLKUfDo)

It proposes the idea: what if King hadn't died, but had been a coma for a great number of years and awoke today, what he think of today's world?



he would shoot himself and go to sleep, if he sees what his people have become.

So, how much longer will they milk this?

... so long as it's still "they" and "us".
... so long as there are still companies around that benefited from slavery.
... so long as black people haven't recieved their "40 acres and a mule".
... so long as white people still want to forget it.

*snip*

I never owned a slave. If "reparations" were ever demanded of me, I wouldn't pay a single cent.

I never owned a slave. If "reparations" were ever demanded of me, I wouldn't pay a single cent.

I never owned a little Indonesian kid, but I'll still pay for the shirt he made me. If we reap the benefits of oppression (and believe me you do), we do owe something.

...ok that's a bad example.

I never owned a little Indonesian kid, but I'll still pay for the shirt he made me. If we reap the benefits of oppression (and believe me you do), we do owe something.

...ok that's a bad example.

My point is that I don't see why people should be punished for crimes they committed commit. Suppose, for example, that your great-great-grandfather murdered someone. Would it make sense for them to arrest you for the crime? Of course not.

I can totally sympathize with the blacks who want reparations. Every day I myself am reminded that I am the descendant of slaves. Every night I have bad dreams about all my ancestors who were whipped mercilessly, forced to work until they dropped, and bought and sold like animals.

Every time I see a public building with classical architecture, every time I see the LA Colosseum, every time I see "E Pluribus Unum" on US currency and other Latin phrases, I am reminded that my ancestors were slaves of the ROMAN EMPIRE! Yes, I am going to sue the government of Italy and DEMAND REPARATIONS for my SLAVE ANCESTORS!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY, ITALY!!!

My point is that I don't see why people should be punished for crimes they committed commit. Suppose, for example, that your great-great-grandfather murdered someone. Would it make sense for them to arrest you for the crime? Of course not.

Of course not. But that's not exactly analogous. What if your great-great-grandfather murdered somebody, which in turn sent that somebody's family into extreme poverty and social leprosy for many years to come, while elevating your family to a position of wealth and power? If that somebody's family was still struggling, while your family had the richest men in America and most of the governmental positions and power, wouldn't something be owed to them?

Even an apology or at least some sense of compassion would be a nice start. Instead, somehow the white people are the indignant ones, demanding that black people stop "milking this" because it "isn't their problem anymore, and isn't our fault."

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

Personally, I'm still waiting for an apology for serfdom.

I never owned a slave.

So?

My point is that I don't see why people should be punished for crimes they committed commit.

No one is proposing "punishing" anyone for anything.

Personally, I'm still waiting for an apology for serfdom.
We're not talking about some issue from the Middle Ages here. Slavery ended a bit more than a century ago, and segregation went on long afterwards. If you're too young, ask your parents and maybe they will remember.

Forever.

They have very real gripes about their disadvantages though, but slavery is just the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilgrove
Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or . I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

I empathize with the OP.
Watch out though, what you just said will be thoughtcrime before long.

It's ridiculous to say that the poor performance of blacks on the whole is due to white oppression and not their own inadequacy in a system created by (and for)whites.

With all the racially selected reparations in place (such as affirmative action, Black only scholarship/quotas, massive welfare dependency) that are in place, tell me why the blacks are still underachieving, still doing everything vile in society at a higher statistical rate than whites? Is that my fault? My ancestor's fault?

If the slaves had been repatriated to their homelands after abolition (like nearly ALL other historical slave populations were), they would today be free of "white oppression". Wouldn't that have been better for everyone?

We're not talking about some issue from the Middle Ages here. Slavery ended a bit more than a century ago, and segregation went on long afterwards. If you're too young, ask your parents and maybe they will remember.

Ahem. I was trying to point out that those who "feel the pain of slavery to today" are full of it, but I think you need a little history lesson:

Slavery in the US ended in 1863.

Serfdom didn't end in Russia until 19 February 1861, which at that time contained my mother's little village. My father's was freed on 2 March 1853, when it was lifted in Hungary -- a mere 10 years earlier than slavery in the US.

So: is white slavery more acceptable to you than black slavery?

But some Jugoslavs had it worse: Consider that Bosnia & Herzegovina didn't emancipate until 1918!

Slavery in the US ended in 1863.
Serfdom didn't end in Russia until 19 February 1861...

Okay, a valid point. But this thread is about black slavery in the US.

Do I think whites being enslaved is better than blacks? No. But in the US, whites weren't enslaved.

And the government of "Russia" has changed several times since then, whereas the US government today is one and the same as that which allowed slavery for the first century or so of its existence.

Okay, a valid point. But this thread is about black slavery in the US.

Do I think whites being enslaved is better than blacks? No. But in the US, whites weren't enslaved.

And the government of "Russia" has changed several times since then, whereas the US government today is one and the same as that which allowed slavery for the first century or so of its existence.

Exactly! And my point was how it compared to serfdom -- I certainly don't *expect* to be apologised to for it! And if you want to talk about sterotypes, I assure you that Poland doesn't get off very easily! :D

The government isn't the point though. And even if it were, slavery was brought to the US by the English, Spanish, Dutch, et al. There was no US government when slaves began being SHIPPED to North America!

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

...so my point stands that serfdom was every bit as bad as slavery, that it lasted just about as long, and that whites aren't bitching about it. I mean, when have you heard of someone asking France for reparations for servitude? ;)

... okay you lost me when you started talking about stereotypes and Poland.

The government *is* the point. The US broke away from the British Empire supposedly to be a nation of free men (arguable but at least that's what they tell kids in school), where they were all guaranteed "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" except oh yeah black people are only 3/5 of a man. The same government that, since the day it abolished slavery, has refused to repair it (to the point where, today, the effects are considered irreparable), still won't even apologize for the condition it created years later for black people.

AMERICA!! Land of the free!!!*



*Unless you are black, woman or a slave

... okay you lost me when you started talking about stereotypes and Poland.

The government *is* the point. The US broke away from the British Empire supposedly to be a nation of free men (arguable but at least that's what they tell kids in school), where they were all guaranteed "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" except oh yeah black people are only 3/5 of a man. The same government that, since the day it abolished slavery, has refused to repair it (to the point where, today, the effects are considered irreparable), still won't even apologize for the condition it created years later for black people.


...because slavery wasn't something the government started, it was an endemic condition when the country was formed. It'd be like asking the Canadians to apologize to the descendents of the American midwest for the French aggression during the French and Indian Wars (or, if one prefers, Seven Years War).

Never mind that the South would never had joined the Union if slavery was banned, and that the North at that time didn't have to force the issue.

Fix it? How?
Apologize? Why? As I point out, the government wasn't responsible for starting it, and few countries issue apologies for anything anyway.

A couple of misconceptions that need to be cleared up:

1) Reparations =!= compensation. Any talk about giving money payments to black people is incorrect.

2) The purpose of reparations is not because there were slaveowners, it is because the government sanctioned slavery.

Oh, and before you ask, yes, there should also be reparations to the Native Americans.

i dont buy the whole white guilt thing. my country didnt have black slavery, my country didnt invaded africa. i dont ow them shit.

Oh, and before you ask, yes, there should also be reparations to the Native Americans.

Why? They lost.

My great ancestors were vikings. They never oppressed anyone! ... ah shit.

Why? They lost.That matters why?

That matters why?

Because if we're just going to pay the people who lost to us anyways, then what is the point of going to war?

i dont buy the whole white guilt thing. my country didnt have black slavery, my country didnt invaded africa. i dont ow them shit.

The problem is the whole land of the free thing.. Where everyone is supposed to have an equal shot in life.

Only problem is that there is no way for kids to have an equal shot in life. Well short of taking them all off their parents and growing them up in big education camps till they are 20 and then expelling them into the world.

There is no way you can have an equal shot in life. Your shot in life is always going to be based on your parents and your parents position in life.

There is no level playing field.... every now and again there is some attempt to level it a little.. AA etc... but it has an awfully long way to go...

Because if we're just going to pay the people who lost to us anyways, then what is the point of going to war?There is no point in engaging in an unjust war, which is what it was.

That matters why?

Vae victis, baby.

The White Man won. The Red Man lost. That means the Red Man doesn't get to control the land any more.

Nations are built by the strong conquering the weak. Deal with it.

BTW: Indians are currently getting all the "reparations" they could ever want just from tribal gambling :p

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

I'm sorry Wilgrove, but I'd have to side with Malcolm X on this one, "After 400 years of slavery, blacks deserve more than just a cup of coffee in a white cafe."

I'm sorry Wilgrove, but I'd have to side with Malcolm X on this one, "After 400 years of slavery, blacks deserve more than just a cup of coffee in a white cafe."

So, are you talking about some sort of racial debt?

Vae victis, baby.

The White Man won. The Red Man lost. That means the Red Man doesn't get to control the land any more. That says nothing about whether or not the war was justified in the first place. Might does not make right.

Nations are built by the strong conquering the weak. Deal with it.Not all nations have the right to exist, or at least not in the forms they currently do.

BTW: Indians are currently getting all the "reparations" they could ever want just from tribal gambling :pWell, being able to make their own laws is a start, but the fact that they have significantly higher suicide rates than the rest of the U.S. population indicates that there is still a significant amount of progress to be made.

So, are you talking about some sort of racial debt?

I don't think reparations are the answer, but blacks are still feeling the negative effects of slavery today. The damage has not been erased. Something must be done, but I'm not sure what.

Well, being able to make their own laws is a start, but the fact that they have significantly higher suicide rates than the rest of the U.S. population indicates that there is still a significant amount of progress to be made.

I don't believe that we can really show this to be the result of some sort of economic depression alone, given the fact that suicide is often closely linked with alcoholism, a diesease that has a very major genetic component. A genetic trait that is, unfortunately, abnormally prominent in Native American populations.

I don't think reparations are the answer, but blacks are still feeling the negative effects of slavery today. The damage has not been erased. Something must be done, but I'm not sure what.

What do you propose?

If this is some sort of ancestral issue of justice over time, I owe no debt.

What do you propose?

If this is some sort of ancestral issue of justice over time, I owe no debt.

I think we at least owe that we combat racism and bigotry wherever we see it if such would not be threatening to our own lives. I wouldn't advocate confronting a large group of armed white supremacists about their views.

I think we at least owe that we combat racism and bigotry wherever we see it if such would not be threatening to our own lives. I wouldn't advocate confronting a large group of armed white supremacists about their views.

I got called a race traitor once.

I think I'd be willing to combat racism and crap like that, because, frankly, it's wrong. It's harmful to society and it's dangerous to businesses.

Vae victis, baby.

The White Man won. The Red Man lost. That means the Red Man doesn't get to control the land any more.

Nations are built by the strong conquering the weak. Deal with it.

BTW: Indians are currently getting all the "reparations" they could ever want just from tribal gambling :p

So when China gets tired of supporting our economy and tips us over, are you going to say "good one, China. You won. We lost"? Somehow I doubt it.:rolleyes:

Mine didn't get here till 1908, on either side of the family. So nyah!

I'll take your 1908 and raise you 83 years. My parents didnt get here till '91 (dragging a toddler me in tow :P), so we definatelky cant be held responsible for slavery! :)

I got called a race traitor once.

I think I'd be willing to combat racism and crap like that, because, frankly, it's wrong. It's harmful to society and it's dangerous to businesses.

Besides, in my experience, most white supremacists are blowhards whoare lucky if they don't blow their own hands off.

So?

So why should I have to pay?

I recognize that blacks still lag behind in almost all categories, mostly or entirely due to continued discrimination (albeit not legal), but I don't see why stirring up old ghosts is going to help things. Instead, let's concentrate on the here and now, not dwell on the past, and work to help the people (of all colors) in the present.

That says nothing about whether or not the war was justified in the first place. Might does not make right.

It doesn't matter if it was "justified." It happened, it's history, it's over. BTW: I'm GLAD it happened, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Anyone (in the US at least) who says otherwise is actually saying he wishes he was never born, which is indicative of irredeemable stupidity.

Not all nations have the right to exist, or at least not in the forms they currently do.

They don't need a "right to exist." They have the power to exist, and that's enough. And nobody gives power. Power is something you take.

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

Okay, combining this with your vitriol about rap music on that thread last night, anf now I'm sure that you are in fact a racist. Racist

Okay, combining this with your vitriol about rap music on that thread last night, anf now I'm sure that you are in fact a racist. Racist

Another Keyboard Anti-Racist Agitator and Polemicist heard from :p

As Morrissey characterized it so well, rap is "a great musical stench." Much like raperations, er, reparations are a great political stench.

So why should I have to pay?

I recognize that blacks still lag behind in almost all categories, mostly or entirely due to continued discrimination (albeit not legal), but I don't see why stirring up old ghosts is going to help things. Instead, let's concentrate on the here and now, not dwell on the past, and work to help the people (of all colors) in the present.

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench in this whole discussion. I got my latest issue of Playboy today, and the title of the first piece in Forum is "Tough Love," and the subhead is "We hear a lot about the problems of a black 'underclass,' but what happens when white people mess up?" Here's an important part of the piece by Ishmael Reed.
The majority of the pieces written by Samuel Freedman, the Times education columnist, say the crisis confronting American education proceeds from the unwillingness of young blacks to assimilate. Those who have been swayed by the numerous articles and books making this claim must have been astonished to read a recent study showing that 53 percent of the nation's white students (in Cleveland it's 74 percent) read below proficiency level. In another study only one third of college graduates were found to understand what they were reading or, in its words, to be able to "read a complex book and extrapolate from it." Perhaps these white students view being able to read as "acting white."
Sorry for no link, but if Playboy has it online, I'll be damned if I can find it.

But Reed makes a powerful point--and once I read it, I was reminded that Chris Rock made the same point years ago in "Bring the Pain. There are lots of fucked up white people out there, but we never seem to hear about them. We white people get a pass for shit that we excoriate others for--poor educational performance is just one example.

So why should I have to pay?

Because life isn't fair.

We can either act to make sure it's as fair as possible, and in the process, if necessary, do some unfair things for the greater good, or we can linger forever on square one because we're waiting for perfection.

Problems do not solve themselves. This is not going to go away unless we make it go away.

I recognize that blacks still lag behind in almost all categories, mostly or entirely due to continued discrimination (albeit not legal), but I don't see why stirring up old ghosts is going to help things.

If these were truly old ghosts, you'd be right. But they're not. Their effects, and the effects of successive crimes, linger to this day.

Problems do not solve themselves.

What problems? All the slaves are dead. All their owners are dead. Throwing money at people won't solve the problem.

What problems?

This one:

blacks still lag behind in almost all categories

All their descendants are dead.

No, they aren't.

Throwing money at people won't solve the problem.

"Throwing money", no. Spending money wisely on programs designed to reverse racial inequalities, yes.

No, they aren't.

Typo. I meant all the slave owners. *smacks self*

"Throwing money", no. Spending money wisely on programs designed to reverse racial inequalities, yes.

Ah, okay. That I can support.

All their descendants are dead.

Buh?

Buh?

Typo. I fixed it.

Okay, combining this with your vitriol about rap music on that thread last night, anf now I'm sure that you are in fact a racist. Racist

Really sports fan, how do you figure that?

That matters why?

Losers deserve something? What kind of strange alternate universe are you living in?

Great! By your logic, all of Europe, the US, Canada, Brazil and all the allies must now pay money to neo-Nazi organizations because we destroyed their homeland, executed their leaders, and disolved their government. :headbang:

You sir, do not get to choose what and what is not an unjust war. Winning or losing is the only determinant.

I'll take your 1908 and raise you 83 years. My parents didnt get here till '91 (dragging a toddler me in tow :P), so we definatelky cant be held responsible for slavery! :)

Ditto, though with different years. :)

"Throwing money", no. Spending money wisely on programs designed to reverse racial inequalities, yes.

OR you could spend the money on helping people from disadvantaged backgrounds - be that background black, white, asian, latin or whatever.

Or do disadvantaged people from other groups not deserve as much help as disadvantaged people from a particular group - dispite the fact that right now they are in exactly the same shit.

And what about people who are half black/half white - are they only half as disadvantaged as a black person with two black parents and four black grandparents etc etc?

And what about the millions of Americans who have no ancestors who arrived here before slavery was abolished? Do we just track down people with ancestors? Or should an immigrant arriving this year be punished for a past injustice?

Helping people because of their race rather than their situation seems just as racist as the views that created the inequality and only work to foster future rascism.

OR you could spend the money on helping people from disadvantaged backgrounds - be that background black, white, asian, latin or whatever.

There is no "or."

Or do disadvantaged people from other groups not deserve as much help as disadvantaged people from a particular group - dispite the fact that right now they are in exactly the same shit.

They are not in "exactly the same shit." Poor whites suffer economic deprivation; poor blacks suffer economic deprivation and racial discrimination and marginalization.

And what about people who are half black/half white - are they only half as disadvantaged as a black person with two black parents and four black grandparents etc etc?

I would have to see the statistics to answer that question.

And what about the millions of Americans who have no ancestors who arrived here before slavery was abolished? Do we just track down people with ancestors? Or should an immigrant arriving this year be punished for a past injustice?

No one is being "punished." Reparations are not punishment; their objective is not some sense of revenge but rather the correction of the problem.

Helping people because of their race rather than their situation

But no one is advocating that. What is being advocated is helping people whose race negatively affects their situation.

Excessively long. It's hardly our fault their native civilsations hadn't the capacity to keep pace with Europe. They'd still be throwing spears at bison if we hadn't enslaved them.

Excessively long. It's hardly our fault their native civilsations hadn't the capacity to keep pace with Europe. They'd still be throwing spears at bison if we hadn't enslaved them.

I hope that was an attempt at satire...

"Why don't they just die now and decrease the surplus population?"

I hope that was an attempt at satire...

Not as such. Well, a little, but it does serve a point. Slavery was a big nasty abuse of human rights, not that such rights concern me in the slightest, however we are conditioned only to see its malign implications, and, in any case, why should we apologies perenially any more than Mongolia should apologise to the entirety of Asia and Europe?

Ok, so I'm taking Civil Rights class for my History degree. We're studying the Civil Rights movements from 1955 to 1970s. We have a few blacks in my class, and one and two of them will just not shut up about slavery. Yes, somehow they can "feel" the pain of their ancestors, and that the "pain" is still there, even today. God every time they talk about their stupid little pains I either want to just explode on them and rip their little "pain" to shreds in a debate, or :headbang:. I am sick and tired of blacks trying to milk the "slavery" card. "Oh you got to give me money because my ancestors were your ancestor's slave." God, you'd think since Slavery ended in 1863 and it's now 2006, that the blacks that are milking the "slavery" card would just let it go by now. God....idiots.

Well first they will talk governments and companies through the right kind of judges into granting reperations

which of course won't solve the problems

then they will push re-segregation to teach courses on Black Pride

Forcing governments to set aside a number of seats to folks of color

and then some time after that say Independence from the rascist United States is the only solution

I don't believe that we can really show this to be the result of some sort of economic depression alone, given the fact that suicide is often closely linked with alcoholism, a diesease that has a very major genetic component. A genetic trait that is, unfortunately, abnormally prominent in Native American populations.Perhaps if it weren't related to other things...though unfortunately I do not have my source to be able to detail them. In short, though, they're still being marginalized.

What do you propose?

If this is some sort of ancestral issue of justice over time, I owe no debt.No, it has to do with the government allowing slavery. The existence of slave owners is only indirectly an issue.

It doesn't matter if it was "justified." It happened, it's history, it's over. BTW: I'm GLAD it happened, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Anyone (in the US at least) who says otherwise is actually saying he wishes he was never born, which is indicative of irredeemable stupidity.Except, of course, for the fact that it was entirely possible for the settlers to live in relative peace with the natives.

They don't need a "right to exist." They have the power to exist, and that's enough. And nobody gives power. Power is something you take.And is also something that is used against you if you step out of line, which can be, but isn't limited to committing atrocities.

Losers deserve something? What kind of strange alternate universe are you living in? Losers of unjust wars do.

Great! By your logic, all of Europe, the US, Canada, Brazil and all the allies must now pay money to neo-Nazi organizations because we destroyed their homeland, executed their leaders, and disolved their government. :headbang:Nope, since stopping the Nazis was just.

You sir, do not get to choose what and what is not an unjust war. Winning or losing is the only determinant.Of course I get to choose what is a just war. I have the right to state my opinion, and I'll state it again: Might does not make right.
If the Nazis had won WWII, would they have been right?

Losers of unjust wars do.

Nope, since stopping the Nazis was just.

The "because I say so" arguement is vapid. Just because you say that a conflict was unjust does not make it so. If that's your position, you must give REASONS. WHY are the American Indians a just cause and the Nazis not? You may think the question trite, but I'm quite serious: to both groups the same end came. What makes you think that whatever moral highground you give them is justified?


Of course I get to choose what is a just war. I have the right to state my opinion, and I'll state it again: Might does not make right.
If the Nazis had won WWII, would they have been right?

Wrong. Right most certainly makes right. Without might, right dies an awful death in silence. It happened to the Grecian city states, it happened to the Cherokee, it happened to Poles and Czechoslovaks in 1938/39, as it has happened from the beginning when Og clubbed Grog over the head and stole his wife. And as it will continue to happen, perhaps forever.

Do you really believe that modern liberal thought (because our Occidental world is most certainly liberal in the "free" sense of the word) would have existed if the Allies had caved in WW2? How about if the US hadn't fought an arms race in nuclear weapons against the USSR and instead we'd had a ground war in Europe in the late 60s?

Quite obviously, yes you and I WOULD believe the Nazis to have been right if they'd won. Whatever moral prism you or I have is MADE from the reality that exists in society at large.
This is the same way you and I very rarely (if ever) question if the west winning the Siege of Vienna is a good or a bad thing: it happened, so Europe remained Christian. We have no real way to say with any authority how it might of gone had Jan Sobieski III not come to Austria's aid, etc.

Yes, of course you have the right to an opinion... but from my chair your opinion is very very wrong. Might is the tool of good... and of evil. But no matter which one wins, that faction wins... it is "right".

I hope that was an attempt at satire...

"Why don't they just die now and decrease the surplus population?"

Ok, so what's your plan to bring back the Cro-Magnons? They also lost, were outdone in technology. Perhaps the Lydians? The Romans? Or the Manx?

Tribes die off, nations die off. It is the way of things, for good or ill.
(Yes, I know that they're trying to revive Manx, but it's still a dead culture and at best will be a second tier language, like Walloon or Old Church Slavonic. If they can actually... you know, get people to speak it. The Manx culture itself is gone.)

Well dark-skinned Americans do have a legitimate argument. A lot of their problems today is because of slavery and hatred.

Maybe hatred, but slavery? Slavery was abolished nearly 150 years ago. :confused:

We already paid. We formed the nation of Liberia as a homeland for ex-slaves.

Boondocks: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47zcPZlsDrw), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr2RRfUDL0), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3sqLKUfDo)

The above is a single episode of Boondocks broken down into 3 parts.

Watch it. I think it makes a VERY excellent point about the plight of black African Americans then and now.

It proposes the idea: what if King hadn't died, but had been a coma for a great number of years and awoke today, what he think of today's world?

Lol boondocks rocks.