NationStates Jolt Archive

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

I am not 100% sure, but I think I was taught that however was the begining of a sentence.

Yours looks correct to me.

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

Whoa, I say your supervisor is full of shit and you're absolutely right.

Of course I'm neither a linguist nor a native speaker, but eh. :p


Seriously, though. The first one is definitely correct and the second one looks and sounds so wrong it's not even funny.

Well according to my grammar instructor, you're only sort of right, and your supervisor is wrong.

This would be acceptable:

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

This would be preferable:

"[name] is a competent writer; however, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

This would just be plain old incorrect:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

She's wrong; you're...right-ish. Your version is grammatically correct but stylistically less than absolutely ideal.

The first one looks right to me. The second one turns it into too long of a sentence and there is no pause after the however in that one.. and "[name] is a competent writer." is a sentence itself.

Well according to my grammar instructor, you're only sort of right, and your supervisor is wrong.

This would be acceptable:

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

This would be preferable:

"[name] is a competent writer; however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

This would just be plain old incorrect:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

okay, I agree with you, I knew that niether of them seemed exactly correct....

Agh, silly poll. Count me for the first option.

The first gives much more emphasis to the negative. That's pretty much the difference as far as I'm concerned.

On second thought, I would prefer a semicolon rather than a comma in the second, as mentioned by others. And not just because it's underused interpunction and deserves better.

I'm a cunning one :cool:

Well according to my grammar instructor, you're only sort of right, and your supervisor is wrong.


This would be preferable:

"[name] is a competent writer; however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."



That looks better than the last one .. but there isn't suppose to be a comma after however? I mean you are speaking it, you do pause after saying however .. meh .. I don't know much about grammar.

That looks better than the last one .. but there isn't suppose to be a comma after however? I mean you are speaking it, you do pause after saying however .. meh .. I don't know much about grammar.

Actually, yes there is. I thought I added it, but I suppose not.

*goes back to edit*

Hmmm, from the UK here and i was taught you only use however between commas so in the sentance it would be;

"[name] is a competent writer, however, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Hmmm, from the UK here and i was taught you only use however between commas so in the sentance it would be;

"[name] is a competent writer, however, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."
Hm, but wouldn't that "between commas" thing rather apply to something like this:

"He certainly is a competent writer. He is, however, a terrible speller."

?

Is there an online equivalent to Strunk and White?

Hmmm, from the UK here and i was taught you only use however between commas so in the sentance it would be;

"[name] is a competent writer, however, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

To my understanding (this is from the US), that form does not work in the case of two sentences, which is the sort of case we have in this example.

There must be either a period or a semi-colon before however. A semi-colon would actually be the best choice, but a period is far better than a comma splice.

I'm disappointed that no one has bitten on my pun, especially since I got it on page 1 :(

I'm disappointed that no one has bitten on my pun, especially since I got it on page 1 :(

You mean the cunning linguist bit?

You mean the cunning linguist bit?

yesh :(

yesh :(
But it's so... old. :p *pats*

But it's so... old. :p *pats*

But it's the only one I've got! *breaks down in tears*

But it's the only one I've got! *breaks down in tears* Nooo, you are renownedly punny. There, there.

i would use either in the same essay.

well, in this case you're using however as a conjunctive adverb, so you'll need a semi colon followed by a comma:

;however,

However, when you use 'however' to begin a sentence, you obviously need a comma. And when you use 'however' as a sort of off to the side (mainly in speech), it's a comma before and after.

and finally, when you use however to mean 'in whatever manner/means/ to whatever extent' you don't need any punctuation.

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

Yours is correct. Also, you could have:

"[name] is a competent writer; however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

with a semicolon instead of a comma.

Now, before I answer your question I'd like to state that I do study English linguistics.

However, most of my decisions on the validity of grammatical constructions are based purely on gut instinct and however well I speak the language, it's not my native tongue. :p

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.
"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."
My supervisor feels it should be:
"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."
Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.
So... am I right? Is she right?
I'd go with your version. Hers doesn't feel right.
Whoa, I say your supervisor is full of shit and you're absolutely right.
Of course I'm neither a linguist nor a native speaker, but eh. :p
Seriously, though. The first one is definitely correct and the second one looks and sounds so wrong it's not even funny.
Seconded!
Hm, but wouldn't that "between commas" thing rather apply to something like this:
"He certainly is a competent writer. He is, however, a terrible speller."
?
Sounds sound.
To my understanding (this is from the US), that form does not work in the case of two sentences, which is the sort of case we have in this example.
Yes, I'd support this notion, too.


"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

"[name] is a competent writer. He is, however, frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

*"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

I wouldn't pick the version with the semicolon instead of using two sentences.
Don't ask me why.

I just thought of another version that might be acceptable:

"[name] is a competent writer, however frequently unmotivated he is in class as he does not finish his work."

You're both wrong.

Strict grammarian rules are an outdated fad, the fact is that chosing which way of saying something is correct is completely arbitrary and viable to change from dialect to dialect, and from time to time.

As long as you are intelligible, grammar doesn't mean a jott.

EDIT: Is a first-year linguistics student... so I might not know as much, but what I do know is more up-to-date.

Never begin a sentence with however when it means nevertheless. That's probably a minority position these days however.

You're both wrong.

Strict grammarian rules are an outdated fad, the fact is that chosing which way of saying something is correct is completely arbitrary and viable to change from dialect to dialect, and from time to time.

As long as you are intelligible, grammar doesn't mean a jott.

EDIT: Is a first-year linguistics student... so I might not know as much, but what I do know is more up-to-date.

Technically, you are correct; however, there are base rules that we still need to follow to be considered intelligible, and those rules are still considered "grammar". ;)

Third year English student with some linguistics background, btw.

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

Without meaning to cause offense I cannot help but wonder who cares.
It's a horrible sentence whether grammatically correct or not.
(If you really do care then check out
http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~mark/research/However.html )

Personally I would prefer

"[name] is a competent writer but lacks motivation and does not always complete his work.

and I don't even like that one very much.

I'm sort of amateur linguist, but yeah.

Both are correct, but your supervisor's sounds better.

Prescriptively, the sentence requires either a period or a semicolon, BUT your supervisor's method is becoming more acceptable in standard English.

I'm sort of amateur linguist, but yeah.

Both are correct, but your supervisor's sounds better.
It sounds horrible to my ear and what I'm accustomed to.
Prescriptively, the sentence requires either a period or a semicolon, BUT your supervisor's method is becoming more acceptable in standard English.
Interesting. I would never have guessed! (Is there really a comma in front of the but?)

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?

The sentence should be written as follows: "[name] is a competent writer; however, he is frquently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work." To write the sentence as your teacher suggested will make a run-on sentence. To write the sentence your way is not technically incorrect; however, the use of the semicolon is to show a close relationship between the two sentences.

I think your version is fine.

Is there an online equivalent to Strunk and White?

Yes, I know I'm quoting myself :rolleyes:
Strunk and White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style)

It's the end of the academic year in Australia, and my supervisor and I can't resolve an issue with the grammar on the reports I'm writing for my students. I've backed down (since she's the one who ensures that I have a job next year), but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. So for my own ego, I would like your opinions on the comment.

"[name] is a competent writer. However, he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

My supervisor feels it should be:

"[name] is a competent writer, however he is frequently unmotivated in class and does not finish his work."

Now, I was always taught at school that the only correct usage of the word "however" is at the start of a sentence, and that the word "but" is grammatically correct in my supervisor's example.

So... am I right? Is she right?Both are toally permisible. Conjunctive adverbs can link independant clauses or start a new sentence. You could also use a semicolon.

Without meaning to cause offense I cannot help but wonder who cares.

I do. It is important that I present myself in a professional manner, including using correct grammar on school reports.

It's a horrible sentence whether grammatically correct or not.

Any chance of an explanation as to why it is horrible? Perhaps you could offer a suggestion on what could be improved?

To everyone else, thanks for you input.

I do. It is important that I present myself in a professional manner, including using correct grammar on school reports.



Any chance of an explanation as to why it is horrible? Perhaps you could offer a suggestion on what could be improved?

To everyone else, thanks for you input.

All you have to do to know why its horrible is to say it out loud.
The alternative that I did suggest was

Personally I would prefer

"[name] is a competent writer but lacks motivation and does not always complete his work.

and I don't even like that one very much.

Im a cunning linguist ;)

All you have to do to know why its horrible is to say it out loud.

Specifically, what is horrible about it when said out loud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunlaoire
All you have to do to know why its horrible is to say it out loud.


Specifically, what is horrible about it when said out loud?


Just try it, if you don't get it then you don't get it and feel free to ignore me.

If all you want is to know what is correct and incorrect when
using however, just have a look at the url that I provided previously.
http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~mark/research/However.html