NationStates Jolt Archive

To give new members of NSG a chance to join our WITCHy goodness, I've decided to bring up the ol WITCH founding page.

Founded due to the rise the sudden rise in the level of anti-feminist reactionary-ism around November of 06, WITCH stands as a monolith of spammy goodness for free-thinking individuals.

W.I.T.C.H. stands for protecting the ideals of feminism from reactionaries, and for viciously hunting down and spamming said reactionaries. Anyone may join so long as they believe in real gender equality. Non-sexist spelling of womon/womyn is optional. Sense of humor is also optional, but highly recommended.

Statement of Principles:

WITCH stands for feminism: true gender equality and no more absurd sex roles. If you wanna dress in drag, go ahead.
WITCH also stands for freedom: feminism cannot succeed without freedom. Run naked through the streets! It's really liberating!

I have no doubt that all of WITCH's current members will have no problem fullfilling these ideals.

Members
Trotskylvania
Desperate Measures
CthulhuFhtagn
Soheran
Cabra West
Dakini
Glitziness
Ladamesansmerci
Poliwanacraca
Bookislvakia
Whereyouthinkyougoing
Gravlen
Kyronea
Infinite Revolution
Kryozerkia
UpwardThrust
Terrorist Cakes
Sumamba Buwhan
School Daze
Ifreann
Kanabia
Amazonia North

In. Please.

In. Please.

Welcome aboard.

*blinks*

Looks like it's back to the bottle for me then.

how is the word "woman" sexist?

Due to the sudden rise in the level of anti-feminist reactionary-ism, I have decided to found the NS chapter of W.I.T.C.H.

W.I.T.C.H. stands for protecting the ideals of feminism from reactionaries, and for viciously hunting down and spamming said reactionaries, particularly The Redemption Army. Anyone may join so long as they believe in real gender equality. Non-sexist spelling of womon/womyn is optional.

Members
Trotskylvania
Desperate Measures

The Redemption (should be retarded) Army is just a troll, and trolls deserve to be flamed. stop worrying about that guy.

i want to ask you something, seeing as your a leader of what seems to be a pro-feminist movement: what do you see as a gender bias in the workplace (EXCEPTING, of course, the oft-cited pay differential) im very interested in your answer.

how is the word "woman" sexist?

Because some people with little to no interest in linguistics believe that the "wo-" at the start is a prefix, denoting women as a subdivision or lesser category to men. Which isn't the case, anyway.

Welcome aboard.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

how is the word "woman" sexist?

Some feminists insist that spelling it "woman/women" is sexist becase it is derived from "man/men," so they spell it "womon/womyn" to stop that. I think its a little nuts, but I just do it to piss certain people off.

Because some people with little to no interest in linguistics believe that the "wo-" at the start is a suffix, denoting women as a subdivision or lesser category to men. Which isn't the case, anyway.

I saw one of the original essays in which it was used and it made its point well. It should have been over with that one essay, though. Point made, move on to more important matters.

I don't mind using it in certain cases like this one, though. I saw it as a bit of whimsy but I might be wrong.

how is the word "woman" sexist?

because only 30 something’s can be called it think about it goes: girl-young lady-woman-old lady-fossil

and because it has man in the name which is the complete wrong pronunciation since it should be "wumon"

The Redemption (should be retarded) Army is just a troll, and trolls deserve to be flamed. stop worrying about that guy.

i want to ask you something, seeing as your a leader of what seems to be a pro-feminist movement: what do you see as a gender bias in the workplace (EXCEPTING, of course, the oft-cited pay differential) im very interested in your answer.

I more interested in protecting the gains already made then in making new advances. But, as for gender bias, it still lurks in many places. In a lot of places, women are not given as much of a chance to do certain types of jobs as their male counterparts. Just hope to work on moving that along. But I started the NS chapter just because W.I.T.C.H. as an acronym is ubercool.

I'm in.

Some feminists insist that spelling it "woman/women" is sexist becase it is derived from "man/men," so they spell it "womon/womyn" to stop that. I think its a little nuts, but I just do it to piss certain people off.

I think its nuts, since when has "derived from"="inferior to"?

English is derived from German, does that mean that German is superior to English? Hell no.

I'm in.

Welcome aboard!

Sign me up.

Because some people with little to no interest in linguistics believe that the "wo-" at the start is a prefix, denoting women as a subdivision or lesser category to men. Which isn't the case, anyway.

Better?

Sign me up.

You're in, comrade.

Better?

I already corrected it, but thanks anyway :)

Anyone may join so long as they believe in real gender equality. Non-sexist spelling of womon/womyn is optional.

"Woman" is not sexist because "man" originally meant "human being", not "adult male". And obviously, latin-based words with "man" in them are derived from "manus" meaning "hand".

I more interested in protecting the gains already made then in making new advances. But, as for gender bias, it still lurks in many places. In a lot of places, women are not given as much of a chance to do certain types of jobs as their male counterparts. Just hope to work on moving that along. But I started the NS chapter just because W.I.T.C.H. as an acronym is ubercool.

you see, i have a reason to not like feminists in particular, and it boils down to the workplace.

i happen to be a male working in an environment dominated by feminism, where jobs in the workplace are taken simply because of sex (for example, i cannot regularly serve customers because i am a man, though i am much more proficient at the job than anyone else in the store). i can, however, take part in back breaking labor that a woman simply does not have to and "cannot," according to my 3 women managers, do.

Can I join too?

Can I join too?

Certainly

I think its nuts, since when has "derived from"="inferior to"?

English is derived from German, does that mean that German is superior to English? Hell no.
Not so very nuts, no.

I can think about this better in German terms, so here are a few examples where the German word for man (Mann) is used in words not related to anything specifically masculine. (note: Mann is only for man as in male; (hu)man would be Mensch)

jedermann = anyone/everyone
jemand = someone
man = one/you (as in "One/You can never be too careful!")

The German word for woman is Frau. Not really in there, is it?

As you can see, these seemingly neutral words I listed are neutral in English, but not in German. We use them neutrally, but they aren't really.

And yes, that may seem nitpicky and overly feminist and crazy, but just imagine for a moment that your language was centered around "female" words and your own gender was just an afterthought, an "is implied", and you might see why feminist linguistics ever came into existence.


Disclaimer: As anyone versed in linguistics already noticed by now, I am not. Please don't yell at me for giving the "idiot's version, abridged" of the problem. :/

you see, i have a reason to not like feminists in particular, and it boils down to the workplace.

i happen to be a male working in an environment dominated by feminism, where jobs in the workplace are taken simply because of sex (for example, i cannot regularly serve customers because i am a man, though i am much more proficient at the job than anyone else in the store). i can, however, take part in back breaking labor that a woman simply does not have to and "cannot," according to my 3 women managers, do.

That is petty on their part. That is not feminism, that's just being bossy. A feminist would be helping to do the heavy lifting.

Certainly

Yay! Frauenpower! :D

http://www.linke-t-shirts.de/images/buchcover/DLF553.jpg

you see, i have a reason to not like feminists in particular, and it boils down to the workplace.

i happen to be a male working in an environment dominated by feminism, where jobs in the workplace are taken simply because of sex (for example, i cannot regularly serve customers because i am a man, though i am much more proficient at the job than anyone else in the store). i can, however, take part in back breaking labor that a woman simply does not have to and "cannot," according to my 3 women managers, do.

That doesn't sound like an environment dominated by feminism. The idea that women cannot do X simply because they are women, or that men cannot do Y simply because they are men, is the antithesis of feminism, which seeks to abolish forced adherence to stereotyped gender roles.

And yes, that may seem nitpicky and overly feminist and crazy, but just imagine for a moment that your language was based on "female" words and your own gender was just an afterthought, an "is implied", and you might see why feminist linguistics ever came into existence.

Honestly, it's an incredibly insecure person who feels that they have to define themselves by how their gender is spelt anyway. But while we're altering non-neutral linguistics, can we change "left-handed" to "correct-handed"? I don't like being the opposite of "right".

That doesn't sound like an environment dominated by feminism. The idea that women cannot do X simply because they are women, or that men cannot do Y simply because they are men, is the antithesis of feminism, which seeks to abolish forced adherence to stereotyped gender roles.

true. its just that ive met "feminists" that believe that women are the dominant sex and men are just evil.

i think someone described them on some thread as "feminazis" or something like that.

Some feminists insist that spelling it "woman/women" is sexist becase it is derived from "man/men," so they spell it "womon/womyn" to stop that. I think its a little nuts, but I just do it to piss certain people off.Womon sounds like some sort of pokomon.

true. its just that ive met "feminists" that believe that women are the dominant sex and men are just evil.

i think someone described them on some thread as "feminazis" or something like that.

Then they aren't feminists.

Womon sounds like some sort of pokomon.

Most times, they don't pronounce it any differently, so it is a rather nitpicky.

Honestly, it's an incredibly insecure person who feels that they have to define themselves by how their gender is spelt anyway. But while we're altering non-neutral linguistics, can we change "left-handed" to "correct-handed"? I don't like being the opposite of "right".

then down is "not up." i dont like the negative connotation that the "ow" sound brings to the word.

Then they aren't feminists.

hence the quotation marks

http://www.linke-t-shirts.de/images/buchcover/DLF553.jpgI can't be the only one that seeing that picture has a decidedly lewd thought cross my mind.. I mean, where's that fist inserting itself?
*shakes head*

Womon sounds like some sort of pokomon.

Actually, a Digimon, considering it was thos that all ended in '-mon'.

Honestly, it's an incredibly insecure person who feels that they have to define themselves by how their gender is spelt anyway. It's not about "defining yourself", it's about how your gender role is being defined for you, and sneakily to boot, since it's so ingrained in our culture and even language that we don't even notice anymore.

But while we're altering non-neutral linguistics, can we change "left-handed" to "correct-handed"? I don't like being the opposite of "right".How is that an example that applies here?

then down is "not up." i dont like the negative connotation that the "ow" sound brings to the word.

And while we're at it, can we change the spelling of "men", so it has as many letters as "women"? I don't like being orthographically inferior by having fewer letters. Let's spell it meghn instead.

I can't be the only one that seeing that picture has a decidedly lewd thought cross my mind.. I mean, where's that fist inserting itself?
*shakes head*

*lol
Congratulations, your imagination is about as dirty as my own.
The pic is the generally accepted symbol of feminism in Germany. :D

And while we're at it, can we change the spelling of "men", so it has as many letters as "women"? I don't like being orthographically inferior by having fewer letters. Let's spell it meghn instead.

yeah, but meghn sounds like "megan" if you interpret it literally, which is a girls name, which leads to the stereotype of men acting rather... well, non-man like.

It's not about "defining yourself", it's about how your gender role is being defined for you, and sneakily to boot, since it's so ingrained in our culture and even language that we don't even notice anymore.

How is that an example that applies here?

If no one notices then...uhhh...Does it matter? "Well, since there is such a lack of words with 'frau' in them, we won't be hiring you ma'am."

true. its just that ive met "feminists" that believe that women are the dominant sex and men are just evil.


Sure. And I've met "Christians" who support beating gay people to death. It's silly to blame any ideology for the idiots on its fringe. :)

yeah, but meghn sounds like "megan" which is a girls name, which leads to the stereotype of men acting rather... well, non-man like.
Oh damn, I was with you up to this point.

Oh, may I be in on this, please?

It's ironic that feminists would criticise words like "woman" for being sexist, when "feministic" is a sexist word for pro-sexual-equality.

It's not about "defining yourself", it's about how your gender role is being defined for you, and sneakily to boot, since it's so ingrained in our culture and even language that we don't even notice anymore.

Woman comes from the Old English "wyfmann", which translates as female person. Man comes from "wermann", which translates as male person.

How is that an example that applies here?

It's called satire. Look it up, it's super-cool!

And while we're at it, can we change the spelling of "men", so it has as many letters as "women"? I don't like being orthographically inferior by having fewer letters. Let's spell it meghn instead.

Just spell it Mennn, so they have to emphasize it.

W.I.T.C.H. stands for protecting the ideals of feminism from reactionaries, and for viciously hunting down and spamming said reactionaries, particularly The Redemption Army.
Oh, hunting down and spamming, instead of, you know, arguing against it with the sanity, intellect and whatnot we so vigorously claim to have, despite their denying so? Great way of going about it.

It's ironic that feminists would criticise words like "woman" for being sexist, when "feministic" is a sexist word for pro-sexual-equality.

...Wha?

Just spell it Mennn, so they have to emphasize it.

Or we could reduce the word "women/wymynngh/womon/wurmern" down to wmn, to reduce any sort of spelling or number of letters issue. It would also save space.

Or we could reduce the word "women/wymynngh/womon/wurmern" down to wmn, to reduce any sort of spelling or number of letters issue. It would also save space.

Aye, that would work. YAY EQUALITY!! :D

...Wha?

I meant to write "feminist" not "feministic", but my point stands. It is based on the word "femina", which IIRC is Latin for "woman". Surely such a word lacking in gender-neutrality is hardly appropriate for a pro-equality movement?

i want to ask you something, seeing as your a leader of what seems to be a pro-feminist movement: what do you see as a gender bias in the workplace (EXCEPTING, of course, the oft-cited pay differential) im very interested in your answer.
Other than the serious issue of pay differences, I think the main thing would be how many jobs are seen as "male" or "female" and people are encouraged to follow these ideas, and those who don't are (generally) actively discouraged by society in general and people in the workplace.

For example, males wanting to work with children being viewed suspiciously, or females who go into business being portrayed as over-aggressive, manipulative bitches.

Also things like women being seen as too emotional to handle stressful situations at work or taking on any leadership roles, and situations where men will ignore female superiors and make their job hard for no reason other than not liking the idea of a woman being the boss. And then other stuff which is less feministy like sexual harrasment cases (non-feministy because I assume everyone would care about that..).



And, if you hadn't guessed, count me in too :)

stick it from irelands consitution.
Article 41.2 states:

Subsection 1: In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

Subsection 2: The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Oh, may I be in on this, please?

Certainly

stick it from irelands consitution.
Article 41.2 states:

Subsection 1: In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

Subsection 2: The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

If that wasn't so sad, it would be downright funny.

If that wasn't so sad, it would be downright funny.

its actually in our consitution. only a referendum can change it. i think its funny. its like the trinity college charter says they have to shoot a catholic every month. it doesnt happen anymore.

Spamming? True gender equality?

Hmmm... That's kinda how I am now, so I guess..

I'm in ;) :D

Other than the serious issue of pay differences, I think the main thing would be how many jobs are seen as "male" or "female" and people are encouraged to follow these ideas, and those who don't are (generally) actively discouraged by society in general and people in the workplace.

For example, males wanting to work with children being viewed suspiciously, or females who go into business being portrayed as over-aggressive, manipulative bitches.

Also things like women being seen as too emotional to handle stressful situations at work or taking on any leadership roles, and situations where men will ignore female superiors and make their job hard for no reason other than not liking the idea of a woman being the boss. And then other stuff which is less feministy like sexual harrasment cases (non-feministy because I assume everyone would care about that..).



And, if you hadn't guessed, count me in too :)

i wholeheartedly agree with your argument about the typical Male-Female job.

wholeheartedly... because my manager buys into that same silly doctrine you mentioned.

I'm in.

i wholeheartedly agree with your argument about the typical Male-Female job.

wholeheartedly... because my manager buys into that same silly doctrine you mentioned.

Wanna join now?

If no one notices then...uhhh...Does it matter? "Well, since there is such a lack of words with 'frau' in them, we won't be hiring you ma'am."
Those were my thoughts exactly when I encountered this topic first in some class at uni.
Thing is, it's not about if someone uses the words to devalue women, it's about the fact that even our language arose in a patriarchic culture were women always have been - in so many ways - valued less than men, and that we're more or less unwittingly perpetuating this by uncritically perpetuating traditions.

For example, in German our words for someone's occupation/profession are not gender neutral.

Our words for engineer, doctor, taylor, author, teacher, scientist etc. are all "automatically" male. Which is why to this day I'm often suprised when I read soemthing in English like "The doctor conducting the operation approved the method. She considered it safe." - because when I read "doctor" I automatically translate it as Arzt (German for, well, medical doctor/physician) which is the "normal" form, the male form. A female doctor (see, you guys can make it clear by saying "female doctor") would be Ärztin, the female form.

Conversely, it's always a big source of amusement for German high school students when they hear a male nurse being referred to as nurse, because in German a nurse is called Krankenschwester, an absolutely female word ("schwester" means sister).

So, basically, these linguistic forms stem from centuries and centuries of patriarchic tradition, where women were - surprise - nursing the sick, but certainly weren't doctors, or engineers, or teachers, or really anything outside their traditional role of being at home and taking care of the children.

So today, where women actually work in all these fields, shouldn't we change these uses of language?

I think we should. Not, in my opinion, every little thing (notice how I was not advocating changing "woman" or the German "jemand" etc. examples in the previous post, I was just trying to explain why the mere notion of doing so can't be dismissed out of hand as ridiculous) but certainly the glaringly obsolete cases.


It's called satire. Look it up, it's super-cool!
Unfortunately satire requires hitting the target.

Unfortunately satire requires hitting the target.

Yeah, predictable. You missed the satire the first time around, but when it's pointed out to you, you rubbish it as not being good enough.

While defining and defending feminism, I seem to have neglected to mention that I'll happily be counted in the WITCH list. :)

While defining and defending feminism, I seem to have neglected to mention that I'll happily be counted in the WITCH list. :)

Sure thing.

Hell I'm for it.

Besides, who doesn't want to belong in an organization with the acronym WITCH?

Awesome.

*blinks*

Looks like it's back to the bottle for me then.
Hey, gerroff me!!!

Those were my thoughts exactly when I encountered this topic first in some class at uni.
Thing is, it's not about if someone uses the words to devalue women, it's about the fact that even our language arose in a patriarchic culture were women always have been - in so many ways - valued less than men, and that we're more or less unwittingly perpetuating this by uncritically perpetuating traditions.

Err...okay then. But, does your language, formed so long ago, have an effect on the value of women now?

Conversely, it's always a big source of amusement for German high school students when they hear a male nurse being referred to as nurse, because in German a nurse is called Krankenschwester, an absolutely female word ("schwester" means sister).

So, your nurses are...'Sick sister's?

So, basically, these linguistic forms stem from centuries and centuries of patriarchic tradition, where women were - surprise - nursing the sick, but certainly weren't doctors, or engineers, or teachers, or really anything outside their traditional role of being at home and taking care of the children.

So today, where women actually work in all these fields, shouldn't we change these uses of language?

Why? The uses don't mean anything anymore. Does the fact 'Arzt' means male doctor mean that females can't be doctors? No, it means a male doctor is ein Arzt, and a female one is eine Ärztin.

I think we should... but certainly the glaringly obsolete cases.

Were it obsolete, people wouldn't use it. That's sorta how language works.

Hey, gerroff me!!!

Saw that coming :p

Yeah, predictable. You missed the satire the first time around, but when it's pointed out to you, you rubbish it as not being good enough.
Jeez, do I really have to spell it out? You know, it's not like I snapped it up and rubbed your nose in it - you could have just said, yeah, maybe it wasn't such a fitting example after all, or not said anything - but actually telling me to go look up sarcasm?

When you're satirizing something you have to actually satirize that thing, not something else.

Here's what you said:
But while we're altering non-neutral linguistics, can we change "left-handed" to "correct-handed"? I don't like being the opposite of "right".

Not only does this not make sense in and of itself (like, seriously) it also in no way corresponds to the male/female language problem you meant to satirize.

Hence, no satire.


As for your reply to this, I'm guessing something along the lines of "Get a fucking sense of humour" will be likely. Or would have been, as it is.

While defining and defending feminism, I seem to have neglected to mention that I'll happily be counted in the WITCH list. :)
Yeah, same here.


*off to make dinner now, it's 11:30pm already!* *curses NS*

Yeah, same here.


*off to make dinner now, it's 11:30pm already!* *curses NS*

You're in.

As for your reply to this, I'm guessing something along the lines of "Get a fucking sense of humour" will be likely. Or would have been, as it is.

Arguing with someone by making up responses? That's a bit unfair. Honestly, I love it when people try to start a big flame war with me, and then get oh so disappointed when I don't respond in the right way.

*off to make dinner now, it's 11:30pm already!* *curses NS*

You're making dinner? You're such a woman! :eek: You don't belong in the kitchen, it's a gender-neutral-equal-thingy! Fight the man! Don't be oppressed! Stand up for yourself! Make the Man cook for you! Well... If he wants to that is, since it's gender equality all around and such, and...

*Ducks* :D

All this because I couldn't just say: "What? Dinner? At this hour?" :rolleyes: :p

*snip list*

Don't forget me! :(

Why? The uses don't mean anything anymore. Does the fact 'Arzt' means male doctor mean that females can't be doctors? No, it means a male doctor is ein Arzt, and a female one is eine Ärztin.


Are female doctors significantly different from male doctors in any way that that affects their job? No, on average a female is just as qualified as her male counterpart. I see no need why a language should have two different words for people with same occupation, when the only difference is their gender.

Also, what gender a person is does not matter! Therefore I suggest that all W.I.T.C.H members refer to people as 'its' instead of 'hes' or 'shes'.

:p

Are female doctors significantly different from male doctors in any way that that affects their job? NoWell, if you need a urologist, you might disagree..

I see no need why a language should have two different words for people with same occupation, when the only difference is their gender.Because you might want to make that difference clear in a simple way?

Also, what gender a person is does not matter!Depends on the nefarious purposes you have them in mind for.

Yeah, yeah, another random posting in a thread because I can't be arsed (what a great coloquialism, btw) to read 6 pages . . .

While I applaud the sentiment, and also abhor TRA and his ilk (is there any question of gender there? Only men! :rolleyes: ), I feel compelled to point out that if no one posted in his threads, they would sink like the trolls they are.

Witches are cool.

Are female doctors significantly different from male doctors in any way that that affects their job? No, on average a female is just as qualified as her male counterpart. I see no need why a language should have two different words for people with same occupation, when the only difference is their gender.

Also, what gender a person is does not matter! Therefore I suggest that all W.I.T.C.H members refer to people as 'its' instead of 'hes' or 'shes'.

:p

Why are you never online anymore? I missed you. :(

You're making dinner? You're such a woman! :eek: You don't belong in the kitchen, it's a gender-neutral-equal-thingy! Fight the man! Don't be oppressed! Stand up for yourself! Make the Man cook for you! Well... If he wants to that is, since it's gender equality all around and such, and...

*Ducks* :D

All this because I couldn't just say: "What? Dinner? At this hour?" :rolleyes: :p
To all be serious... (:p) either one of the couple can cook (or they can cook together - yay couple cooking :)) as long as they're not expected to do so simply because of their gender. Whatever makes sense for them and whatever they're happy with. A feminist can be a stay-at-home mum, who bakes cakes, cleans the house, wears flowery dresses or does whatever the hell she likes... as long as she doesn't expect all other women to do the same, and hopefully she doesn't believe she has to act that way because she's a woman but does so just because she wants to.

i wholeheartedly agree with your argument about the typical Male-Female job.

wholeheartedly... because my manager buys into that same silly doctrine you mentioned.
As has been said, those women are anything but feminists. They just simply twist the gender stereotypes to suit them, despite how demeaning, pathetic and wrong the stereotypes are. Just as bad as any chauvinist, imo, if not worthy of even less respect for actually supporting the sexist views about themselves. Eurgh.

Jobs should be based on what works best for the individuals. For example, I'm hardly the strongest person so physical labour I won't be good at. However, if you need some help with maths, I'm pretty damn good (for the level I'm at). One of those fits with the stereotype of girls, one doesn't. Who cares? It makes sense to make use of what I'm best at, and what I prefer, judging me as an individual. Asking me for help with flower arranging because of the fact I'm a girl would be sorely disappointing... and dismissing me for help with something mathesy, and going to a less able male just because he's a guy, would mean missing out. Gender stereotyping is stupid in so many ways....

I'll join.

count me in

Why are you never online anymore? I missed you. :(

Sorry, but I no longer have the time to spam all day. What with it being £1 per pint at my student union. I have uni work and stuff to do now as well, not that I'm compalining. I was bored being unemloyed for so long.
Well, if you need a urologist, you might disagree..

I asked if there was a significant difference between male and female doctors. In that particular branch of medicine it does make a small difference (men and women have the same knowledge and skill, and that's what's important). However, for most occupations is doesn't matter what gender the person is.
Because you might want to make that difference clear in a simple way?
Wouldn't it be simpler to use the same word for a female in particular job and a male in a particular job? In the odd case where a certain gender is needed then it can be specified. It would be much easier to just request a female doctor when it is needed, instead of using different words for male and female doctors all the time.

Sorry, but I no longer have the time to spam all day. What with it being £1 per pint at my student union. I have uni work and stuff to do now as well, not that I'm compalining. I was bored being unemloyed for so long.


I asked if there was a significant difference between male and female doctors. In that particular branch of medicine it does make a small difference (men and women have the same knowledge and skill, and that's what's important). However, for most occupations is doesn't matter what gender the person is.

Wouldn't it be simpler to use the same word for a female in particular job and a male in a particular job? In the odd case where a certain gender is needed then it can be specified. It would be much easier to just request a female doctor when it is needed, instead of using different words for male and female doctors all the time.

As a left-hander, I sympathise with the indignities thrust upon you by language. Unfortunately, given how little sense English makes in the first place, you are most likely tilting at windmills. Be glad it isn't all a sinister plot ;)

Count me in! :D

Well, if you need a urologist, you might disagree..


From own unpleasant experience, I find that most gynecologists are male, and that doesn't seem to irk many more people than me.. so why do you men get to have a doctor of your gender choice / bitch about the possibilities of having one of the opposite sex for that kind of thing and we don't? I call discrimination!

As a left-hander, I sympathise with the indignities thrust upon you by language. Unfortunately, given how little sense English makes in the first place, you are most likely tilting at windmills. Be glad it isn't all a sinister plot ;)

It's okay, I'm just arguing for arguments sake. ;)

While I would like to change parts of the English language, I doubt my new words would become common useage.

:(

Sorry, but I no longer have the time to spam all day. What with it being £1 per pint at my student union. I have uni work and stuff to do now as well, not that I'm compalining. I was bored being unemloyed for so long.
Congrats on the job. Though almost nobody from the old spamming crew is left. :( Well, still congrats, and hope RL isn't taking too hard of a toll.

Yeah, predictable. You missed the satire the first time around, but when it's pointed out to you, you rubbish it as not being good enough.

It was poor satire because of several things:

'Right' and 'left' are separate words and only even contain one letter in common. Therefore they are not similar to 'man' and 'woman.' It's not 'right' and 'unright'.

Your example, to not be defined as 'not right' actually goes closer to what you are satirically suggesting by calling it 'correct-handed,' since it then implies that right handed is 'incorrect-handed.' The previous usage 'left' and 'right' are already neutral, and to enforce neutrality you have actually related the two terms. In effect, you've actually played to WYTYGs point, as "Correct-handed" would in fact assign a value to handedness to one or the other. We no longer refer to lefties as 'sinister handed' for that very reason.

You telling her to 'look up satire' is a dig, you set the tone, not her. Don't hurt yourself with that undeserved pat on the back.


That being said, there is an issue with genderizing professional terms as a barrier. Though sometimes the effort to create a neutral word haven't always seemed effective ("Waitron" or "Actron"). Since our language isn't as determined by 'masculine' and 'feminine' words it's easier to just do away with the unnecessary distinction, where you find 'actresses' as 'actors.' If you act, you are an actor-the word is now universal since we do not have to alter our verbs or anything else, except pronouns-which is the only point where the gender matters (well, acting roles are not gender neutral for the most part, but you get the idea). In English female is still implied in "nurse" even though it's not linguistically feminine. So we have those perceptions.

It's more of a marker than a cause. It's a flag to show how deep it goes. Language changes rather glacially, but it does change. The important part is to recognize how deep the root goes, not to give you a new set of language rules.

EDIT: And I clearly don't know how to use "list"...

I am in too

To all new applicants:

You've been added. Welcome aboard!

Oh yes! Sign me up!

I'll join and bring a pitchfork

I'm all for gender equality but I don't see the point in changing the english language cause some words don't fit some peoples idea of equality. People arn't sexest because of words. Growing up in a world where men is men and women is women isn't what makes people sexest, changing these words around isn't going to do anything and I think frankly picking on something as inconsiquential as spelling is kind of redundant.

And for the record, I believe the 'left-handed/correct-handed' satire was appropriate, it's the same basic principal, woman is implied to be less than man because of a 'prefix', left is implied to be less than right because right implies correctness and left doesn't... it implies what's left over from the correctness. It's the same sort of thing, both are kind of silly in my book.

It's okay, I'm just arguing for arguments sake. ;)

While I would like to change parts of the English language, I doubt my new words would become common useage.

:(

We do miss that argue for argument's sake, tho :fluffle:

Congrats on the job. Though almost nobody from the old spamming crew is left. :( Well, still congrats, and hope RL isn't taking too hard of a toll.

Or too hard of a troll ;)

Found this an interesting read. My favorite line: do something really culturally subversive: bake an apple pie.©

http://www.citybeat.com/archives/1996/issue240/food1.html

Now Where is my pie woman!

I'll join and bring a pitchfork
You bring your pitchfork and I'll bring my broomstick ;)

I played a witch in a local drama program for a Halloween play.

Count me in too btw.

You bring your pitchfork and I'll bring my broomstick ;)

I played a witch in a local drama program for a Halloween play.

Count me in too btw.

sure thing.

It was poor satire because of several things:
'Right' and 'left' are separate words and only even contain one letter in common. Therefore they are not similar to 'man' and 'woman.' It's not 'right' and 'unright'.


Yes, uh, maybe you should go back to that definition of "satire", because you just missed the point in a spectacular manner.

Don't you really mean the BROADS' International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell? :p

Sure. And I've met "Christians" who support beating gay people to death. It's silly to blame any ideology for the idiots on its fringe. :)

Alleged Christian "support" for "beating gay people to death" is certainly a fringe belief. Hatred of men, in contrast, is central to contemporary feminism, as the works of the hideous Andrea Dworkin, the insane Catherine MacKinnon and virtually every college women's studies department make perfectly clear. That's why so many women these days reject the label "feminist".

I like equality.:)

Yes, uh, maybe you should go back to that definition of "satire", because you just missed the point in a spectacular manner.

The argument is that woman is derivative of man. Their argument is the subservience of the word. You satirized it by selecting two unrelated words.

Your no Jonathan Swift, champ. It's alright-not everyone is good at everything.

Meh, I'll join. Spamming people is always good.

When you're satirizing something you have to actually satirize that thing, not something else.

Here's what you said:

But while we're altering non-neutral linguistics, can we change "left-handed" to "correct-handed"? I don't like being the opposite of "right".

Not only does this not make sense in and of itself (like, seriously) it also in no way corresponds to the male/female language problem you meant to satirize.

Hence, no satire.

Not only does this not make sense in and of itself (like, seriously) it also in no way corresponds to the male/female language problem you meant to satirize.

Hence, no satire.

The satire was referencing two everyday terms that are viewed by any sane person today as having equal value, then connecting one of those terms to potitive values, while the other is not, then saying the other should be given a positive value equal to the other. This is what the woman/womyn issue seems to boil down to where people take woman, see it has 'man' in it, read negative things into a word that most people view as equal with man (even if they might not view men and women as equal) and want to change the word.

'Right' has many positive connotations:
The 'Right' Path. That's Right. He is in the 'right'. My 'right-hand' mannn. Rightful owner...

'Left' does not.
'Two left feet...'?

The joke about changing 'Left' to 'Correct' was referencing how 'Right' tends to mean 'good' or 'correct' in any case where it is not refering to directions.

The satire also goes a little deeper to - in reference to the actual discussion - it is not as though Left-Handed people ahve gone through history without discrimination either...
Until the latter part of the twentieth century, Roman Catholic nuns in American elementary schools would punish children for using their left hand to write, typically by slapping their left hand with a ruler if they attempted to pick up a pen with it. [citation needed] As late as the early 20th century, school teachers in the Netherlands would force right-handed writing (thus, ambidexterity) on left-handed writing children. [citation needed] An example of such treatment involves baseball players Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth, who both hit and threw left-handed and wrote right-handed after enduring left-handed suppression during their formative years. [citation needed]

Left-handedness was often interpreted as a sign of Satanic influence, and thus prohibited. Many examples can be found in the Christian-Greek scriptures in which the wicked or evil sit at the left hand of God, while the righteous sit at the right hand of God, during Judgment. The Inuit also believed that every left-handed person was a sorcerer. [citation needed]

The Romans also frowned upon left-handedness. A left-handed boy who was training to be in a Roman legion would have his hand bound to his side, and would be forced to use the gladius with his right hand. This was done out of necessity, as a left-handed Roman would have interfered with the cohesion of the Roman legions.

The use of left hand was also frowned upon in Asia. Allegedly, though there were few examples of its happening, a Japanese man could once divorce his wife if he discovered that she was left-handed.

Until very recently, in Chinese societies, left-handed people were strongly encouraged to switch to being right-handed. However, this may be in part because, while Latin characters are equally easy to write with either hand, it is more difficult to write legible Chinese characters with the left hand. The prescribed direction of writing each line of a Chinese character is designed for the movements of the right hand, and some shapes tend to feel awkward to follow with the left hand's fingers. It results in a less soft writing than it would be with the right hand.

In many parts of the world, such as Indonesia, it is considered impolite to eat and accept gifts with the left hand. The reason for this is that a person who uses his left hand to eat would often cause trouble with the person to the left of him. Another stated reason for this is that the left hand is used in some countries, like Indonesia, during a bathroom visit.

A profound Arabian stigma against left-handedness dates to a pre-industrial period when paper was extremely rare and (in desert regions) water was too precious to be used for hand-washing. Because it was necessary to use one hand for wiping oneself after defecation, and because it was impossible to cleanse this hand thoroughly, the hand used for this task (traditionally, the left hand) was deemed unfit to be used for any other activity, especially as most Arabs of that time lacked eating utensils, and so they ate with their fingers (of the right hand) from communal dishes, while keeping the left hand entirely concealed at mealtime. To this day, it is widely regarded as taboo in Arab culture to handle food with the left hand. Offering one's left hand for a handshake greeting, or even waving it in greeting without touching, would be considered a serious personal insult in Arab society.


And even today Left-handed people have a lot of difficulties in using many everyday items, which although you might not realise are designed for right handed use - for example scissors and rulers. Even keyboards are deisgned for right-handed people. They have to go to specialist shops to get left handed products.

Really - there's more reason to rename 'Left-handed' in a positive term - like 'correct' than there is to change Woman to Womyn. Even if that reason is still very very very small...

The satire was referencing two everyday terms that are viewed by any sane person today as having equal value, then connecting one of those terms to potitive values, while the other is not, then saying the other should be given a positive value equal to the other. This is what the woman/womyn issue seems to boil down to where people take woman, see it has 'man' in it, read negative things into a word that most people view as equal with man (even if they might not view men and women as equal) and want to change the word.

'Right' has many positive connotations:
The 'Right' Path. That's Right. He is in the 'right'. My 'right-hand' mannn. Rightful owner...

'Left' does not.
'Two left feet...'?

The joke about changing 'Left' to 'Correct' was referencing how 'Right' tends to mean 'good' or 'correct' in any case where it is not refering to directions.

The satire also goes a little deeper to - in reference to the actual discussion - it is not as though Left-Handed people ahve gone through history without discrimination either...


And even today Left-handed people have a lot of difficulties in using many everyday items, which although you might not realise are designed for right handed use - for example scissors and rulers. Even keyboards are deisgned for right-handed people. They have to go to specialist shops to get left handed products.

Really - there's more reason to rename 'Left-handed' in a positive term - like 'correct' than there is to change Woman to Womyn. Even if that reason is still very very very small...
First of all, I'm left handed. I know all to well the pain of blunt scissors and using things upside down and backwards.

You've made the same mistake as our 'satirist' by assuming that not thinking his satire is any good is the same as not getting it.

Why are you never online anymore? I missed you. :(

Yeah, you're not the only one...

RL getting in the way again! :(

First of all, I'm left handed. I know all to well the pain of blunt scissors and using things upside down and backwards.

You've made the same mistake as our 'satirist' by assuming that not thinking his satire is any good is the same as not getting it.

I thought his point was pretty decent...

bloody lefties thinking with the wrong side of their heads... :D

Yeah, you're not the only one...

RL getting in the way again! :(
You are being disrespectful to womyn by spamming in this thread! :mad:

...particularly The Redemption Army.

Congratulations. You've fed the troll. :rolleyes:

Some feminists insist that spelling it "woman/women" is sexist becase it is derived from "man/men," so they spell it "womon/womyn" to stop that. I think its a little nuts, but I just do it to piss certain people off.

Incidentally, I hear that "woman" actually derives etymologically from wife+man. The influence of power on language is certainly an interesting subject.

Alleged Christian "support" for "beating gay people to death" is certainly a fringe belief. Hatred of men, in contrast, is central to contemporary feminism, as the works of the hideous Andrea Dworkin, the insane Catherine MacKinnon and virtually every college women's studies department make perfectly clear. That's why so many women these days reject the label "feminist".

Hell, I'm male and even I don't like men much.

Sign me up. :D

Wow, with so many members in this organization it should be no problem at all for you to get me a beer and make me a sandwich. Oh, and tidy this place up for christ's sake.

Wow, with so many members in this organization it should be no problem at all for you to get me a beer and make me a sandwich. Oh, and tidy this place up for christ's sake.

Sure, we'll have one of the males do it And I'll have a beer, too.

I'll join and bring a pitchfork

Aren't witches suppose to be chased by people with pitchforks and then burnt at the stake rather than joining them:p

I am going to sit on the side and watch the witches chase the trolls around the forum instead.

Wow, with so many members in this organization it should be no problem at all for you to get me a beer and make me a sandwich. Oh, and tidy this place up for christ's sake.

Are you a man? If so then you should be buying the beer, I'll have a Strongbow cider thanks.

What's everyone else getting? :p

Congrats on the job. Though almost nobody from the old spamming crew is left. :( Well, still congrats, and hope RL isn't taking too hard of a toll.

Old spamming crew? Present.

You are being disrespectful to womyn by spamming in this thread! :mad:

No I'm not! It's positive spam! ;) And that was the point of it all too...

:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

No I'm not! It's positive spam! ;) And that was the point of it all too...


No, you should spam the threads created by those crazy anti-feministy types.

Don't use those those fluffles, it's treating womyn like objects! :mad:

I go a but further than feminism, all the way to notionally supporting the idea of matriarchy, but that's only when I'm being extreme. :D Count me in.

Yeah, put me down.

Yeah, put me down.

you owe me a pony for christmas.

you owe me a pony for christmas.

And you owe me...something.

And you owe me...something.

No I don't. I want my pony.

Yeah, put me down.


you smell

In please.

Hmm....an organization for social equality to females called WITCH...

No I don't. I want my pony.

Have you been naughty or nice?

you smell

Hey!

Well...

So do you.

I'm confused. Is this serious or a joke?

I'm confused. Is this serious or a joke?

I figure a joke with serious undertones. :)

Have you been naughty or nice?

Does it matter? Santa (aka you) promised me a pony, so now pay up!

No I don't. I want my pony.

You want a pony? :p

Check out my nation, Amaziona North, I think you'll approve.

You go girls!

I figure a joke with serious undertones. :)

Something about seriously empowering women, yes? I really just glanced at the OP so I can't say. ;)