NationStates Jolt Archive

oh i think that if you should die and find yourself before a god you are going to have plenty to say no matter if you denied his existence or not.

Actually I have very little to say to God when I see Him

Then seriously consider the question WHAT IF?
WHAT IF, you die and find yourself before a God whose existance you have denied all of your life? Or will you refuse to answer this question because you know that, when you stand before God, you will have nothiong to say?I rather feel nobler risking the wrath of such a being than I would if I became a worshipper for fear of it's wrath.
If it's truly a superior to me, then it won't care whether or not I worshipped it. It'll be more concerned with how I treated my fellow beings. If it is more concerned with whether or not I worshipped it than how I lived my life, then it doesn't deserve worship.
It's clearly an inferior being.

If science cannot prove the source of our existance, what is there?

Just because science hasn't all the answers is no reason to assume there is a god , gods, or any supernatural phenomena.

Actually I have very little to say to God when I see Him

So you are merely going to ask if you were good enough to get in?

Oh come on … you cant by definition prove an absolute … you can just prove likelihood

Prove ABSOLUTELY that you exist?

Cant can you, turning the litmus of an argument to proving an absolute is silly, and shows ignorance.

If I don't exist, then you don't either, so your silly claim that absolutes can't be proven isn't valid. That kind of twisted thinking is reserved for druggies.

I rather feel nobler risking the wrath of such a being than I would if I became a worshipper for fear of it's wrath.
If it's truly a superior to me, then it won't care whether or not I worshipped it. It'll be more concerned with how I treated my fellow beings. If it is more concerned with whether or not I worshipped it than how I lived my life, then it doesn't deserve worship.
It's clearly an inferior being.

Seconded

If I don't exist, then you don't either, so your silly claim that absolutes can't be proven isn't valid. That kind of twisted thinking is reserved for druggies.

True my existence is not proven ... that was the whole point

Thank you for backing up my reasoning

My 2 cents:
Atheism is quite simply a state of denial. Look around you, do you really believe that all of the wonders of the galaxy came into creation out chance? Look at yourself, and your fellow man, do our free wills and higher intellects really come form a chance evolutionary process that makes us no better then apes? My friend, if you call yourself an atheist you are sadly mistaken. No current scientific theory satisfies the phenomenon of our existance, God is the only explanation.
Now as for why the Christian God IS in fact the 1 true god, well that takes another thread...

well now, the existence of the universe, of intelligence, of the wonders of the galaxy might imply a creator (imo i does not) but it does not imply GOD.

should there have been a creator to the universe....

is he intelligent or was it an accident? (and where did he come from?)

is he still in existence?

is he all powerful? all knowing? all loving?

was he involved in the details of the universe or did they run through all on their own?

is he aware of us? if so, does he care? does he want to be worshipped?

is there an afterlife for us or is this all we get?

i can go on and on but the existence of the universe does not imply the answers to these questions. if you suppose that the universe needs a creator, all you can say is that there was one all those billions of years ago.

nothing more.

I'll take a single post to back my faith and answer any question you may have to the universe: "I don't know."

Oh and agnosticism is as close to Atheism as it is Christianity. So please stop lumping me in with them.

Thanks.

Actually I have very little to say to God when I see Him

really?

you arent even curious as to whether or not he really sent an angel to mohammed or even to joseph smith? you dont want to ask him what was up with that whole dinosaur thing? you wouldnt even pull out a bible and ask if that is what he really said?

id have plenty to talk about.

really?

you arent even curious as to whether or not he really sent an angel to mohammed or even to joseph smith? you dont want to ask him what was up with that whole dinosaur thing? you wouldnt even pull out a bible and ask if that is what he really said?

id have plenty to talk about.

He is too mighty to question, I will simply ask "Did I serve You?"

True my existence is not proven ... that was the whole point

Thank you for backing up my reasoning

Actually I proved that your system of thought is on drugs....learn to detect sarcasm people.

Actually I proved that your system of thought is on drugs....learn to detect sarcasm people.

And how did you prove that?

And how did you prove that?
It is impossible to THINK at all when your very existance is not certaint, therefore we MUST assume we exist, if we do not, well....'
Mankind is worse off then I thought

Answer my question and I'll answer yours ;)

I'll say, "you gave me no compelling reason to believe in your existence Allah. I'm sorry. I guess I should've tortured and beheaded all those infidels afterall!"

It is impossible to THINK at all when your very existance is not certaint, therefore we MUST assume we exist, if we do not, well....'
Mankind is worse off then I thought

You are making an assumption based on pragmatism ... useful yes and something I do


But you decline the same when it comes to scientific theory

For example prove that the theory of gravity is accurate. This could take your entire natural life and beyond to do many have worked for it. But for the sake of pragmatism we assume that it is at least fairly accurate

Now you are asking people to prove an absolute. That is just silly

But you CAN have conclusive evidence FOR god?

Certainly.

The platypus.

Many religious who condemn those who are different don't understand why other people are atheists. I want to tell everyone where why I am, and this will probably apply to others in a loose kind of way because while all atheists don't believe in God, they all have their own reasons.

I have come to the conclusion that because there are too many religions, too many Gods and too many holy scriptures that contradict each other that none of them are possibly any more true than the other.

With no religion have the true answer, despite what zealots claim, no religion can sincerely answer the question: "why are we here?" Thus, leaving us humans to figure that out for ourselves, feeding our curiosity by learning about the world around us.

I cannot believe in a superior being.

If such a being cannot show himself in anyway, how am I to know he exists? Faith alone cannot help me there because I just find myself too curious to blindly follow any line of faith.

I cannot believe in a religion.

Religion is historically founded on principles of blind faith and attempt to answer questions in a time when the Scientific Method wasn't known to man kind. But, with science answering more questions, I don't need religion to answer what isn't known.

I know that there is always going to be something that isn't known, and that is what makes life interesting. You don't need to rely on some unseen being to tell you that you just need faith and blind belief.

I like the mysterious and the unknown. It lets me imagine what can exist and what can't exist out there.

Go on, persecute me because I don't believe in a God.

I know people will damn me to hell because I have chosen not to believe in some being that may or may not exist above the earth, watching us as we do everything.

I live my life as I want because it is my life and I know that I am a good person as long as I do what I know is right, and I don't break the law.

I do not persecute those who believe in a god, or some superior being. I only hate those who force their awful, hating, intolerant faith on me.

Atheists can have religious friends.

My best friend is Muslim, but she follows the moderate version and never once forced it on me. Yet, I sat and listened to her talk about her religion because she only spoke of how she liked it and how it was right for her, never once saying how I should convert.

http://www.digitalfreethought.com/stickers/why.jpg

thats basically just a stating of your morals...you've given no argument for why i too should be an athiest...obviously i know your not trying to get me to be an athiest, but unless you try to explain some plausible reasoning your post is...a waste of time.

My 2 cents:
Atheism is quite simply a state of denial. Look around you, do you really believe that all of the wonders of the galaxy came into creation out chance? Look at yourself, and your fellow man, do our free wills and higher intellects really come form a chance evolutionary process that makes us no better then apes? My friend, if you call yourself an atheist you are sadly mistaken. No current scientific theory satisfies the phenomenon of our existance, God is the only explanation.

In my entirely arrogant opinion:

Theism is a state of intellectual laziness. Theism allows any tart to "understand the secret workings of the universe" without doing any serious work. There is a glorious legacy of wo/men who have rigorously applied reason to the world and thereby revealed the marvelous inner workings through which it functions and is sustained. As if the perfect harmony and self-sustainability of nature weren't enough, you all have to postulate some super-duty tootie-frootie pandimensional being who makes rules about who can get naked together.

J.

I'll take a single post to back my faith and answer any question you may have to the universe: "I don't know."

Oh and agnosticism is as close to Atheism as it is Christianity. So please stop lumping me in with them.

Thanks.

ah but SOME atheists claim that the text book definition of Agnostics ( I don't know) Is a definition of Atheism now

Many religious who condemn those who are different don't understand why other people are atheists. I want to tell everyone where why I am, and this will probably apply to others in a loose kind of way because while all atheists don't believe in God, they all have their own reasons.

I have come to the conclusion that because there are too many religions, too many Gods and too many holy scriptures that contradict each other that none of them are possibly any more true than the other.

With no religion have the true answer, despite what zealots claim, no religion can sincerely answer the question: "why are we here?" Thus, leaving us humans to figure that out for ourselves, feeding our curiosity by learning about the world around us.

I cannot believe in a superior being.

If such a being cannot show himself in anyway, how am I to know he exists? Faith alone cannot help me there because I just find myself too curious to blindly follow any line of faith.

I cannot believe in a religion.

Religion is historically founded on principles of blind faith and attempt to answer questions in a time when the Scientific Method wasn't known to man kind. But, with science answering more questions, I don't need religion to answer what isn't known.

I know that there is always going to be something that isn't known, and that is what makes life interesting. You don't need to rely on some unseen being to tell you that you just need faith and blind belief.

I like the mysterious and the unknown. It lets me imagine what can exist and what can't exist out there.

Go on, persecute me because I don't believe in a God.

I know people will damn me to hell because I have chosen not to believe in some being that may or may not exist above the earth, watching us as we do everything.

I live my life as I want because it is my life and I know that I am a good person as long as I do what I know is right, and I don't break the law.

I do not persecute those who believe in a god, or some superior being. I only hate those who force their awful, hating, intolerant faith on me.

Atheists can have religious friends.

My best friend is Muslim, but she follows the moderate version and never once forced it on me. Yet, I sat and listened to her talk about her religion because she only spoke of how she liked it and how it was right for her, never once saying how I should convert.


Good. At least you've got conviction. Atheists are fine by me. Brothers and sisters of a different kind of faith. Not religion, but faith in the belief that what's real is real, and everything else isn't.

I'll take a single post to back my faith and answer any question you may have to the universe: "I don't know."

Oh and agnosticism is as close to Atheism as it is Christianity. So please stop lumping me in with them.

Thanks.

Interesting, that you should choose doubt as a way of life. Certainly, you should be at least able to conclude from what you see, feel, hear, sense, that there is either something or there is nothing. I can't see a reason to neither believe nor not believe--this is one case, at least, that does not have a middle ground.

really?

you arent even curious as to whether or not he really sent an angel to mohammed or even to joseph smith? you dont want to ask him what was up with that whole dinosaur thing? you wouldnt even pull out a bible and ask if that is what he really said?

id have plenty to talk about.

Joseph Smith was a pimp. :D

I have come to the conclusion that because there are too many religions, too many Gods and too many holy scriptures that contradict each other that none of them are possibly any more true than the other.



I totally agree with that while im not atheist my self I can see and understand why people would be. I even have a few friends that are. I have studied most of the major religeons my self and probably would be atheist my self if I even went threw a persiod after I had some one real close to me die that I lost all faith in anything and I suppose for all intents and porposes during that time I could of been considered Atheist my self. Though I believe as I do and have caught some grief from some people I once thought of as friends becasue of my beliefs, I have started only being friends who will like me for who I am and not try to change my beliefs, and I in turn resect thier beliefs what ever they may be. I actually get a kick out of few christian people I have met that say I am going to hell because of my beliefs I find it funny cause they seem so serrious and unhappy I always laugh at em and say " I may be going to hell if what you claim is true but atleast im going to go to hell at the end of a happy and entertaining life."

should there have been a creator to the universe....

is he intelligent or was it an accident? (and where did he come from?)

Intelligent (He always was).

is he still in existence?

Yes.

is he all powerful? all knowing? all loving?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

was he involved in the details of the universe or did they run through all on their own?

My take is that He set up the rules of the universe and pushed the big red GO button.

is he aware of us? if so, does he care? does he want to be worshipped?

Yes. Yes. Don't know.

is there an afterlife for us or is this all we get?

Afterlife.

wouldnt the total absence of belief make the agnostic an atheist? one who doesnt believe in god(s)
Agnostics are a subset of atheists.

People who do believe in god are theists. People who don't believe in god are atheists. Agnostics, as people who don't know, can't believe in god, and thus are atheists. Being an agnostic precludes the belief that god does not exist (explicit atheism), but allows implicit atheism (simple failure to believe in god).

Global sceptics are necessarily agnostics, but as they fail to believe in god they are also atheists. The two groups are not mutually exclusive.

Agnostics are a subset of atheists.

People who do believe in god are theists. People who don't believe in god are atheists. Agnostics, as people who don't know, can't believe in god, and thus are atheists. Being an agnostic precludes the belief that god does not exist (explicit atheism), but allows implicit atheism (simple failure to believe in god).

Global sceptics are necessarily agnostics, but as they fail to believe in god they are also atheists. The two groups are not mutually exclusive.

except for those more sophisticated agnostics who feel that there is (or may be) some kind of higher power in the world that cant be known.

Intelligent (He always was).



Yes.



Yes. Yes. Yes.



My take is that He set up the rules of the universe and pushed the big red GO button.



Yes. Yes. Don't know.



Afterlife.

*rolls my eyes*

PAY ATTENTION

i wasnt asking for a recitation of your catechism. i was "asking" how the existence of an ultimate creator of the universe answered any of those questions.

Joseph Smith was a pimp. :D

take a look at the big boys of the old testament. there arent exactly paragons of virtue. god doesnt seem to require morality in his patriarchs.

In my entirely arrogant opinion:

Theism is a state of intellectual laziness. Theism allows any tart to "understand the secret workings of the universe" without doing any serious work. There is a glorious legacy of wo/men who have rigorously applied reason to the world and thereby revealed the marvelous inner workings through which it functions and is sustained. As if the perfect harmony and self-sustainability of nature weren't enough, you all have to postulate some super-duty tootie-frootie pandimensional being who makes rules about who can get naked together.

J.

I have to (arrogantly) agree with you here... it just seems to me that if you don't know the answer to something, you should just admit that you don't know the answer. If you still have a burning desire to know, you can put in some effort and try and find out.

Resorting to some kind of fall back answer like "God did it" reduces the truely magnificent wonder of the unknown to a simple and ultimately unsatisfying answer.. at least thats the way I see it.

Kids love asking why and I can see why people would resort to eventually just answering them with a "Just because..." type answer. Kids need to feel secure.. and uncertainty makes you less secure. .. but it also reduces the wonder. If kids think that all the answers are all ready known where does that leave them? Without room for them to find new answers.

Quite apart from any rational reason for being an atheist I personally just prefer living life without the safety blanket of an all encompassing answer. It is in a word, exhilarating. Its like going swimming in a big surf without my floaties on :)

Some people feel a need for floaties and that’s great for them. Personally I think there comes a time in your life when its time to lose the floaties and learn to swim for yourself....

except for those more sophisticated agnostics who feel that there is (or may be) some kind of higher power in the world that cant be known.
And again, I fail to see how that's the more sophisticated position when it relies on unjustified beliefs.

A global sceptic has no beliefs. He is an agnostic. This is the purest form of scepticism. The agnostics you describe must believe either that there is a God who cannot be known, or that it cannot be known if there is a God. And there is simply no rational basis for either position.

And again, I fail to see how that's the more sophisticated position when it relies on unjustified beliefs.

A global sceptic has no beliefs. He is an agnostic. This is the purest form of scepticism. The agnostics you describe must believe either that there is a God who cannot be known, or that it cannot be known if there is a God. And there is simply no rational basis for either position.

its a more sophisticated agnostic belief. not a more sophisticated atheist belief.

a sophisticated agnostic isnt undecisive about whether or not they believe in god. they arent stymied between being a bapist or penticostal, or between islam and hinduism.

these are the more common thought processes that get labelled "agnostic"

the sophisticated agnostic feels the presence of spirituality, thinks it through, and realizes that "god", whatever reality that word might represent, cant be understood by the human mind.

dont come back at me with "i dont think thats sophisticated". its not the point.

the point is that an agnostic ISNT an atheist.

With no religion have the true answer, despite what zealots claim, no religion can sincerely answer the question: "why are we here?"
You've obviously never asked a theologian.
If such a being cannot show himself in anyway, how am I to know he exists? Faith alone cannot help me there because I just find myself too curious to blindly follow any line of faith.


How do you know the world exists?

Agnostics are a subset of atheists.

People who do believe in god are theists. People who don't believe in god are atheists. Agnostics, as people who don't know, can't believe in god, and thus are atheists. Being an agnostic precludes the belief that god does not exist (explicit atheism), but allows implicit atheism (simple failure to believe in god).

Global sceptics are necessarily agnostics, but as they fail to believe in god they are also atheists. The two groups are not mutually exclusive.

Nope.

Agnostics can be theists.

All an agnostic position means, is that one believes it is impossible to know for sure. One can still 'believe' either way.

And then there is the position of Ignostics such as I, that mean that any discussion of the existence of or believing in God is futile, since no coherent definition of God is or can be given.

Interesting, that you should choose doubt as a way of life. Certainly, you should be at least able to conclude from what you see, feel, hear, sense, that there is either something or there is nothing. I can't see a reason to neither believe nor not believe--this is one case, at least, that does not have a middle ground.

All I can certainly believe, if anything, is that I know nothing of the higher powers. It would therefore be pretentious of me to make assumptions based on evidence, one way or the other, which holds no strong weight.

I feel that given enough time of 'doubt', I can put the pieces together impartially and fairly. Holding an unbiased position I am free to hear all sides on the issue and can make, if I do, a decision based on that.

There is always a middle ground.