NationStates Jolt Archive

Outsourcing is like a evasive mosquito, buzzing around America's head and intermittently sucking its blood. It does not pose a great risk to the economic viability of the US, but it slightly endangers it. However, we can turn that "frown" upside-down!

The solution is to implement a system of "in-sourcing." In effect, we should import low-cost workers from abroad and employ them to great effect in US industries. Our ever-increasing trade deficit can be blamed on the extremely poor economies of various socialist countries and their minute costs of production. Nonetheless, that problem can be easily rectified by enticing those workers to share in the bounty of the US economy. In many African countries, for example, the poor live in unimaginable squalor -- they sleep in the dirt and must work continuously if they wish to acquire sufficient money to purchase the necessities of life. They would be willing to sacrifice life and limb for a chance to labor in the great and welcoming US. However, they lack sufficient funds for such a journey. Being generous, we should provide for their voyage and arrange for them to legally immigrate. However, there should be one caveat. We cannot allow them to drain all our welfare benefits; they should not be given anything at all by the state. For them, work will be liberty. If they toil, they will be proportionately rewarded by a clean home and food. Their standard of living will be vastly improved, even if it falls below our standards.

In any case, there will be plenty of entrepeneurs who will be willing to hire such workers for below minimum wage. It will allow us to tap into a copious supply of cheap labor at no cost to ourselves. Not only that, but it will boost the quality of life for these hapless immigrants by allowing them access to a much easier and much more forgiving life. The only problem is the cost, but that should be easily dealt with. If we transport these immigrants in cargo ships, the cost per passenger should be negligible. We can transport hundreds to the US in one ship for only several thousands dollars. It is a win-win proposition for both the US economy and poor African citizens, and we should go forward with it.

Yes! Bring Africans to America in cargo ships, force them to work for no money, and then get your asses kicked by Abe Lincoln all over again.

EDIT: I mean the kung-fu zombie Lincoln by the way.

It took me a few seconds to get, but it's a classic. Well done :D

Interesting proposal… quite modest even.

Yes! Bring Africans to America in cargo ships, force them to work for no money, and then get your asses kicked by Abe Lincoln all over again.

You completely misunderstand me. We would not force anyone in compliance with this policy; they would willingly acquiesce, knowing that their quality of life will be vastly improved in the US. Additionally, they might be paid if they so desire. However, they could also opt for simply being provided food and housing, as well as a bit of money, which many would prefer. It will certainly be a flexible system.

So, in effect you're suggesting that the US reinstitute a form of slavery.

You're going to have them as second-class or non-citizens. Working for little or no pay, just to get food and a roof over their heads. All of course at a quality that even the lowiest of Americans wouldn't think twice about renting. All goods that are made are appropriated and sold for the factory owner's profit... and... I can't be bothered to continue. It was an amusing idea though.

Outsourcing is like a evasive mosquito, buzzing around America's head and intermittently sucking its blood. It does not pose a great risk to the economic viability of the US, but it slightly endangers it. However, we can turn that "frown" upside-down!

The solution is to implement a system of "in-sourcing." In effect, we should import low-cost workers from abroad and employ them to great effect in US industries. Our ever-increasing trade deficit can be blamed on the extremely poor economies of various socialist countries and their minute costs of production. Nonetheless, that problem can be easily rectified by enticing those workers to share in the bounty of the US economy. In many African countries, for example, the poor live in unimaginable squalor -- they sleep in the dirt and must work continuously if they wish to acquire sufficient money to purchase the necessities of life. They would be willing to sacrifice life and limb for a chance to labor in the great and welcoming US. However, they lack sufficient funds for such a journey. Being generous, we should provide for their voyage and arrange for them to legally immigrate. However, there should be one caveat. We cannot allow them to drain all our welfare benefits; they should not be given anything at all by the state. For them, work will be liberty. If they toil, they will be proportionately rewarded by a clean home and food. Their standard of living will be vastly improved, even if it falls below our standards.

In any case, there will be plenty of entrepeneurs who will be willing to hire such workers for below minimum wage. It will allow us to tap into a copious supply of cheap labor at no cost to ourselves. Not only that, but it will boost the quality of life for these hapless immigrants by allowing them access to a much easier and much more forgiving life. The only problem is the cost, but that should be easily dealt with. If we transport these immigrants in cargo ships, the cost per passenger should be negligible. We can transport hundreds to the US in one ship for only several thousands dollars. It is a win-win proposition for both the US economy and poor African citizens, and we should go forward with it.

Well, you're on the right track. Outsourcing will cripple our economy. If we stop producing anything, we no longer sell. A nation that merely produces information and no finished product makes no profit. A nation will not inherent profit falls into economic chaos.

Just like what will happen if we keep outsourcing. And we do insource acutally. There are Japanese Autoplants in Tennessee. :)


So....in a sense, you're on the right track. But as always, you take it too far.

What kind of work would they be doing?

You completely misunderstand me. We would not force anyone in compliance with this policy; they would willingly acquiesce, knowing that their quality of life will be vastly improved in the US. Additionally, they might be paid if they so desire. However, they could also opt for simply being provided food and housing, as well as a bit of money, which many would prefer. It will certainly be a flexible system.

Why do we just reduce restrictions on "Illegal" immigration

You completely misunderstand me.

I'd have thought the bit about zombie Abe Lincoln would have suggested to you that it was a joke, but never mind.

What kind of work would they be doing?

Dunno, picking cotton?

Yes! Bring Africans to America in cargo ships, force them to work for no money, and then get your asses kicked by Abe Lincoln all over again.

EDIT: I mean the kung-fu zombie Lincoln by the way.

No, the slave trade was forced upon the africans. You cannot make that comparison.

What kind of work would they be doing?

Mostly unskilled labor -- I do not think they would be fit for other types of work.

Why do we just reduce restrictions on "Illegal" immigration

Because they would still lack the money to come to the US. They can have all the desire in the world to work in the US, but it will amount to nothing if they cannot afford to immigrate.

You completely misunderstand me. We would not force anyone in compliance with this policy; they would willingly acquiesce, knowing that their quality of life will be vastly improved in the US. Additionally, they might be paid if they so desire. However, they could also opt for simply being provided food and housing, as well as a bit of money, which many would prefer. It will certainly be a flexible system.

Also, in response to this:


Many places in the US have lower standards of living than even the poorest nation on Earth (Moldava).

I've been to some of the poorest places in Europe (i.e ramshackle sheet metal tenements in Russia), and yet those were better or at least as bad as some of the places in the United States where I have been.

So you're argument there is false. Nice try though, but do research or actually go else where in the world to collect your data, not merely from what you believe, 'cause noone cares. I want facts. Not opinions.

Mostly unskilled labor -- I do not think they would be fit for other types of work.

I just don't think we could ever afford that.

No, the slave trade was forced upon the africans. You cannot make that comparison.

Yeah your right them already living in poverty ... coming over and being forced to work under minimum wage is not forcing them.

You can starve or be treated like a slave ... one may be marginally better then the other but by how much.

Because they would still lack the money to come to the US. They can have all the desire in the world to work in the US, but it will amount to nothing if they cannot afford to immigrate.

We have millions of people already crossing the border of their own free will .. they seem to manage

How many more people do we "need"?

Also, in response to this:


Many places in the US have lower standards of living than even the poorest nation on Earth (Moldava).

I've been to some of the poorest places in Europe (i.e ramshackle sheet metal tenements in Russia), and yet those were better or at least as bad as some of the places in the United States where I have been.

So you're argument there is false. Nice try though, but do research or actually go else where in the world to collect your data, not merely from what you believe, 'cause noone cares. I want facts. Not opinions.

Those places make up about 1/999999th of America, so your argument is pointless.

So, in effect you're suggesting that the US reinstitute a form of slavery.

I have advocated that in another topic, but I am suggesting something quite different here. These immigrants will by no means be owned; in fact, they will be treated in a similar manner to tourists. They will not be treated as "second-class," but they would not be restricted by the burdens of the minimum wage. The US government would expect something in exchange for transporting them to America, and that would be cheap labor. It's a very fair deal.

Mostly unskilled labor -- I do not think they would be fit for other types of work.

Why's that? Because they aren't Americans, the finest craftsmen in the world?

Yeah your right them already living in poverty ... coming over and being forced to work under minimum wage is not forcing them.

You can starve or be treated like a slave ... one may be marginally better then the other but by how much.

It is still not forced upon them, they have a choice weather they want to work in exchange for low pay, home and food (hardly slavery) or not.

Though it is impossible for the USA to really afford something like that I do admit.

Those places make up about 1/999999th of America, so your argument is pointless.

...not really. What I'm getting at, is that our standard of living, if you pay attention to these things, is going down. Fast.


Every generation since the baby boomers, it has been significantly lower, and the current generation has the lowest yet, with no expectation of going up. So therefore, my concern is that we will eventually become like this, coupled with our economy which eventually will fall apart if outsourcing continues.

Thats my point.

We have millions of people already crossing the border of their own free will .. they seem to manage

Mexico, although possessing a terrible economy, is in a much better state than dirt-poor African countries. Because of this, Mexicans will have some minimum standards below which they will not sink; this would not hold true when dealing with Africans.

Though it is impossible for the USA to really afford something like that I do admit.

The state would not hire the immigrants; private businesses will. The cost of transport, as I previously mentioned, will be negligible.

Mexico, although possessing a terrible economy, is in a much better state than dirt-poor African countries. Because of this, Mexicans will have some minimum standards below which they will not sink; this would not hold true when dealing with Africans.

They already work for well below minimum wage as illegal workers. How low do you expect to go before the reach the level where they can not feed nor house them selfs.

Mexicans will have some minimum standards below which they will not sink; this would not hold true when dealing with Africans.

Yeah, you're swinging dangerously close to "outright racism" here.

Why's that? Because they aren't Americans, the finest craftsmen in the world?

Because they will most likely lack even basic education.

What kind of work would they be doing?

We'd mostly have them picking cotton for the men and doing house work for the women.

The state would not hire the immigrants; private businesses will. The cost of transport, as I previously mentioned, will be negligible.

The business will not be able to provide enough money for food and shelter, so you will have millions of tramps all over the place.

Yeah, you're swinging dangerously close to "outright racism" here.

Hes gone way over that before. He asked me, and I am a Native American, if I was glad my ancestors were enslaved, tortured, and murdered, because it eventually gave us technical advantages.


Of course, I'm mostly of European decent, but my Great grandmother was a Cherokee.

There must be thousands of people in the U.S. who are either homeless or in poverty. I'm sure they can be used for the 'in-source', couldn't they?

Our ever-increasing trade deficit can be blamed on the extremely poor economies of various socialist countries and their minute costs of production.

Brilliant :D :D :D

Best line ever. Its the poors fault the US is spending more than it earns as a nation. Hilarious.

I thought you right wing types preached personal responsibility? Where is it here?

There must be thousands of people in the U.S. who are either homeless or in poverty. I'm sure they can be used for the 'in-source', couldn't they?

Apparently for some reason just like Mexican emigrants they have "To high of standards"

There must be thousands of people in the U.S. who are either homeless or in poverty. I'm sure they can be used for the 'in-source', couldn't they?

Yes, but that would spoil Colonel MTAE's slavery fantasy.

There must be thousands of people in the U.S. who are either homeless or in poverty. I'm sure they can be used for the 'in-source', couldn't they?

The main problem is, that alot of the homeless are actually ex-insane asylum internees. In the 1980s I believe, many were closed down, releasing them onto the streets.

Therefore, many are not employable. :(

80% of people here fail at debating with MTAE.

Yes, but that would spoil Colonel MTA's slavery fantasy.

There you're wrong. MTAE doesn't want to fight for his dream of American Domination. Instead, he wants other "Insane Soldiers" to fight for it. He says no sane person would want to fight in a war (Which is true), but he also says none would join an army either. So I guess that makes many of us insane then, since I'm deffinately joining after I get out of college.

80% of people here fail at debating with MTAE.

I'm sorry, do you genuinely believe that that's a valid argument? Don't just tell people they "fail". Explain why.

80% of people here fail at debating with MTAE.

.....no. They are not. You are choosing not to listen to them.

.....no. They are not. You are choosing not to listen to them.

I am listening to them, and their argument seems to be based upon insults and crazy comparisons to a slave trade.

crazy comparisons to a slave trade.

Crazy? Please, he wants to bring people "voluntarily" from Africa in giant transport ships, crammed together, before paying them below minimum wage to perform unskilled labour.
You're saying that doesn't warrant the comparison?

Crazy? Please, he wants to bring people "voluntarily" from Africa in giant transport ships, crammed together, before paying them below minimum wage to perform unskilled labour.
You're saying that doesn't warrant the comparison?

Well, the very use of the word voluntarily completely discredits the use of the word slavery. The conditions that these people would be in will be a lot better then the conditions of out-sourcing. Maybe i should call that slavery too.

I am listening to them, and their argument seems to be based upon insults and crazy comparisons to a slave trade.

How so ... the only difference apparently is that it not at gun point

Like any analogy it is not totally complete but it IS strikingly similar to the slave/indentured servant trade.

How so ... the only difference apparently is that it not at gun point

Like any analogy it is not totally complete but it IS strikingly similar to the slave/indentured servant trade.

Ok, it's not crazy, that was going to far. But it is very obvious that its completely missing the point if you take the bate and go OMG a bit like slave trade!!! It's also similarly annoying when lots of people choose to follow the crowd and just insult MTAE rather then debate with him. We are making ourselves look stupid if we continue like that.

Well, the very use of the word voluntarily completely discredits the use of the word slavery.

The inverted commas were supposed to impart irony. Furthermore, comparing something to slavery does not mean it's identical to slavery.

Well, the very use of the word voluntarily completely discredits the use of the word slavery. The conditions that these people would be in will be a lot better then the conditions of out-sourcing. Maybe i should call that slavery too.

How so ... he proposed wages lower then current illegal emigrants ... looking at their incomes not sure how he expects them to live.

As such slavery can be applied to someone even if he or she chooses to be a slave

slave  /sleɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sleyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, slaved, slav‧ing.
–noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

Note it does not say how the person becomes a slave ... just the action of being a slave

It's also similarly annoying when lots of people choose to follow the crowd and just insult MTAE rather then debate with him. We are making ourselves look stupid if we continue like that.

Who's insulting him?

Ok, it's not crazy, that was going to far. But it is very obvious that its completely missing the point if you take the bate and go OMG a bit like slave trade!!! It's also similarly annoying when lots of people choose to follow the crowd and just insult MTAE rather then debate with him. We are making ourselves look stupid if we continue like that.

he is arguing that the cause of the us trade defecit is third world poverty. who is making who look stupid?

Note it does not say how the person becomes a slave ... just the action of being a slave

As MTAE stated earlier, the person is not owned or is the property of the employer, meaning he is not a slave.

Who's insulting him?

I'm not going to name names, but I am not talking just about this thread, but every thread in general.

Basically, if you eliminate all payroll taxes and minimum wage restrictions, housing regulations, health codes, etc. in a small area you could create a miniature third world town near a city. This mini-third world will serve as a source of cheap labor.

Since there are no regulations, the cost of living will be negligible, and thus a ‘living wage’ requirement people want will be satisfied for just a few dollars a day. Poor immigrants from destitute parts of the world would clamor to get in because they are practically guaranteed a job (only when employers want more workers more will be brought in). If they prove themselves to be hard workers and have high productivity, the employer might give them a better job. This better job will entitle them to apply for better status. If the employer gives the nod, they can then get a proper work visa.

You could even create a border town area with a standard of living somewhere in between – thus more expensive living for the newly legitimized but not as insanely expensive as the cost of living for the rest of us.

But you are missing one very simple way to save even more money.
Rounding up reasonable workers and shipping them across the ocean is expensive – you have a lot of overhead with such an operation. Take all the illegal immigrants here now and eliminate their access to state funded infrastructure. Many will likely choose to move into the neo-ghetto with cheap living. Likewise, eliminate benefits to the unemployed that are already here – if they don’t have a job they can get one working in a sweatshop.

Without any regulations, there will be a great demand for super cheap labor (after all, why spend all that time and money on shipping containers across the world?), and they can be put to work. Eventually, most of those little things manufactured overseas will be made locally. With more jobs coming in, the economy will grow. Better jobs will be created, and life will improve for all. Then more people can be brought in for the worst jobs just vacated and the cycle starts anew. While the first job in the states will be really crappy, almost everyone will end up with a much better standard of living.

While not everyone will have a wonderful life, most people in the world don’t have one anyway. At least this way many more people will be better off (if they wouldn’t be better off, they wouldn’t choose to come). So if you are against this you must be a racist elitist who doesn’t care about the plight of the poor people in the world.

Of course, you could just eliminate regulation altogether – people will pay more for better buildings and thus the private market will find ways to meet people’s needs. If I want a building with a sprinkler system I can pay higher rent. If I would rather risk it and pay lower rent, that should be my choice.

In this manner we can have different neighborhoods to fit in each of the multitude of socioeconomic strata. A truly diverse country.

As MTAE stated earlier, the person is not owned or is the property of the employer, meaning he is not a slave.

He says that the cheap labour is their way of paying off the journey to America. Therefore, if they decided to stop working, or asked higher prices, they'd get arrested for non-payment of debt. In what way are they not owned?

As MTAE stated earlier, the person is not owned or is the property of the employer, meaning he is not a slave.

Where did he say that? (honestly)
I must have missed it

For them, work will be liberty.Watch your words lest you be labelled a Nazi.

Where did he say that? (honestly)
I must have missed it

Page 2.

He says that the cheap labour is their way of paying off the journey to America. Therefore, if they decided to stop working, or asked higher prices, they'd get arrested for non-payment of debt. In what way are they not owned?

That applies to everyone, in a way everyone is owned by the government.

You really have to admit...as far as trolls go, MeansToAnEnd is pretty darn good at it...which unfortunately kind of ruins things, because I can't take him seriously enough to get up in arms :( It's a self-defeating prowess I suppose.

That applies to everyone, in a way everyone is owned by the government.

No, because if I choose to stop working, I won't get arrested.

No, because if I choose to stop working, I won't get arrested.

Unless you had debts to pay. If you didn't however, your house and possesions will be reposessed and you will be forced to live on the stress.

Unless you had debts to pay. If you didn't however, your house and possesions will be reposessed and you will be forced to live on the stress.

No, I could claim benefits. Tourists, as apparently the "in-sourced" workers would be treated as, cannot claim benefits.

Page 2.

I will try and find it ... a post number would have helped as I view mine at 40 post per page but ok

I have advocated that in another topic, but I am suggesting something quite different here. These immigrants will by no means be owned; in fact, they will be treated in a similar manner to tourists. They will not be treated as "second-class," but they would not be restricted by the burdens of the minimum wage. The US government would expect something in exchange for transporting them to America, and that would be cheap labor. It's a very fair deal.

But as you stated it is not the government that is paying for the transport ... THEY are expecting something in exchange for nothing then

What happens if their employer goes bankrupt and drops them? If they can't get another job are they going to be deported or left to starve?

What happens if their employer goes bankrupt and drops them? If they can't get another job are they going to be deported or left to starve?

If they can find no other employment, which is extremely unlikely if they are determined to find work, they can always opt to go to prison.

Watch your words lest you be labelled a Nazi.

Is working one's way to freedom and liberty a Nazi concept? No, it's the American dream! What are you talking about?

Outsourcing is like a evasive mosquito, buzzing around America's head and intermittently sucking its blood. It does not pose a great risk to the economic viability of the US, but it slightly endangers it. However, we can turn that "frown" upside-down!

The solution is to implement a system of "in-sourcing." In effect, we should import low-cost workers from abroad and employ them to great effect in US industries. Our ever-increasing trade deficit can be blamed on the extremely poor economies of various socialist countries and their minute costs of production. Nonetheless, that problem can be easily rectified by enticing those workers to share in the bounty of the US economy. In many African countries, for example, the poor live in unimaginable squalor -- they sleep in the dirt and must work continuously if they wish to acquire sufficient money to purchase the necessities of life. They would be willing to sacrifice life and limb for a chance to labor in the great and welcoming US. However, they lack sufficient funds for such a journey. Being generous, we should provide for their voyage and arrange for them to legally immigrate. However, there should be one caveat. We cannot allow them to drain all our welfare benefits; they should not be given anything at all by the state. For them, work will be liberty. If they toil, they will be proportionately rewarded by a clean home and food. Their standard of living will be vastly improved, even if it falls below our standards.

In any case, there will be plenty of entrepeneurs who will be willing to hire such workers for below minimum wage. It will allow us to tap into a copious supply of cheap labor at no cost to ourselves. Not only that, but it will boost the quality of life for these hapless immigrants by allowing them access to a much easier and much more forgiving life. The only problem is the cost, but that should be easily dealt with. If we transport these immigrants in cargo ships, the cost per passenger should be negligible. We can transport hundreds to the US in one ship for only several thousands dollars. It is a win-win proposition for both the US economy and poor African citizens, and we should go forward with it.

of course, numerous civil rights groups would glaze over the fact that many far east manufacturing companies have the same practice of exploiting cheap labor... and then would call us Nazis.

then American companies would be forced to hire the workers at minimum wage (what a silly idea, minimum wage! it serves to reduce poverty, yet it increases inflation... hm) and the whole idea of insourcing would be forgotten.

great idea, though

If they can find no other employment, which is extremely unlikely if they are determined to find work, they can always opt to go to prison.

:p that was a good one

But you are missing one very simple way to save even more money.
Rounding up reasonable workers and shipping them across the ocean is expensive – you have a lot of overhead with such an operation. Take all the illegal immigrants here now and eliminate their access to state funded infrastructure.

Yes, that would be an excellent first step, but not sufficient in itself. Mexico enjoys an acceptable standard of living -- it is by no means glorious like that of the US, but it's not as low as that of Africa, either. There is some point at which the flood of illegal immigrants will be halted if we dismantle our various social programmes and decrease wages. Mexicans, while not requiring $5.15 dollars an hour to labor, will not continue to work as wages go indefinitely low and they have no social safety net with which to help themselves and their relatives. However, the same is not true of Africans; life in Africa is much worse than anything they can experience in the US, so they will continue performing their duties even if their salaries are incredibly low.

Don't you already have Mexicans for this?

:p that was a good one

Well, if they really have no other option, then that's what they should do. They could commit a minor crime and attempt to find employment when they are let out on parole. Of course, they will be entitled to three square meals a day and a roof over their heads while in jail, so it would compare favorably to conditions in Africa.

Don't you already have Mexicans for this?

yeah, but when they illegally immigrate into america, they start believing they have access to free health and medical care, along with retirement benifits and minimum wage.

and people wonder why social security is collapsing?!

Don't you already have Mexicans for this?

As I said numerous times before, Mexicans will not work for such low salaries as Africans will. Of course, they're also a drain on our economy due to the social services which we offer them, free of charge.

Don't you already have Mexicans for this?

Thats what I asked ... he replied that their standards are too high

but I doubt it ... by the time you arrange all the governmental structure to police and sanction the importation even if the companies pay for transportation will it really be cheeper then just working with Mexicans that manage to make it here by them selfs when they are already working at considerably sub minimum wage.

As I said numerous times before, Mexicans will not work for such low salaries as Africans will.
Probably not. On the other hand, they also won't cause the same kind of ethnic tensions as Africans will.

As I said numerous times before, Mexicans will not work for such low salaries as Africans will. Of course, they're also a drain on our economy due to the social services which we offer them, free of charge.

But shipping Africans over requires structure and shipping as well as governmental organization even if they are not paying, to handle the paper work

Are you really going to be able to push down their wages far enough to make up that difference?

But shipping Africans over requires structure and shipping as well as governmental organization even if they are not paying, to handle the paper work

Are you really going to be able to push down their wages far enough to make up that difference?

The cost of transportation should not exceed $35 dollars per immigrant, and there would be minimal paperwork.

The cost of transportation should not exceed $35 dollars per immigrant, and there would be minimal paperwork.

How do you come up with that price tag?

The cost of transportation should not exceed $35 dollars per immigrant, and there would be minimal paperwork.

Ah, tight packing. Got it.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/slaveship.htm

But shipping Africans over requires structure and shipping as well as governmental organization even if they are not paying, to handle the paper work

Are you really going to be able to push down their wages far enough to make up that difference?

no, it doesnt require governmental organization but private manhours and planning...

therefore, it would be worth the investment for the private companies to try to get these workers over at the least possible cost to them and at the greatest profit.

How do you come up with that price tag?

It's a rough estimate. It can't cost much more, though, or it wouldn't be profitable to transport any cheap good via a cargo ship. If something that costs $2 per unit can be shipped to the US from Africa, and a profit can be turned, then it can't be so incredibly expensive to move it.

How do you come up with that price tag?
Magic.

I've got a better idea. Open up your immigration system to make it easy, fast and affordable, instead of having to wait years to win a space in the lottery system and then more years to be granted a visa.

It will accomplish the same thing you propose much more cheaply and sensibly.

At least US companies that need to hire highly qualified labour overseas still have a relatively easy time.

Is working one's way to freedom and liberty a Nazi concept? No, it's the American dream! What are you talking about?

Laerod was referring to the fact that what you said had echoes of the phrase above the gates of the concentration camps.

Arbeit Macht Frei (work makes you free)
For them, work will be liberty.

American dream indeed.

I've got a better idea. Open up your immigration system to make it easy, fast and affordable, instead of having to wait years to win a space in the lottery system and then more years to be granted a visa.

It will accomplish the same thing you propose much more cheaply and sensibly.

At least US companies that need to hire highly qualified labour overseas still have a relatively easy time.

yeah... but the whole immigration thing is a government issue that requires months of politicing. insourcing and outsourcing present two very fast and inexpensive ways of evening the playing field with other international companies.

Laerod was referring to the fact that what you said had echoes of the phrase above the gates of the concentration camps.




American dream indeed.

Indeed.

ever wonder why your Honda or Nissan is so cheap? theyre made in Mexico where labor laws hardly exist!

yeah... but the whole immigration thing is a government issue that requires months of politicing. insourcing and outsourcing present two very fast and inexpensive ways of evening the playing field with other international companies.

That's what I just said: Make the immigration process fast, easy and affordable. After all, "insourcing" would still require some sort of immigration reform.

Is working one's way to freedom and liberty a Nazi concept? No, it's the American dream! What are you talking about?Yes, it is a Nazi concept. It graced the gates of concentration camps like Sachsenhausen:

http://www.bldam.brandenburg.de/sixcms/media.php/1566/gedenkstaette_tor.jpg

Yes, it is a Nazi concept. It graced the gates of concentration camps like Sachsenhausen:

That's because the Nazis twisted and warped the American dream to make it conform with their vile and gruesome ideas. In any case, the phrase was used by the Nazis in an ironic manner, while I am using it in a serious way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei

That's because the Nazis twisted and warped the American dream to make it conform with their vile and gruesome ideas. In any case, the phrase was used by the Nazis in an ironic manner, while I am using it in a serious way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_freiHence why no respectable person uses such phrases anymore.

EDIT:
Then again, the Nazis beat you to the idea of using cheap foreign near slave labor for domestic companies. Using their phrases is hardly going to persuade anyone that you're not following in their footsteps.

Hence why no respectable person uses such phrases anymore.

It's an accurate phrase, and if we allow the Nazis to preclude us from using it, that means Hitler has won his campaign of terrorism (that's liberal logic, mind you).

what would these low cost slaves work for if they cannot afford to pay for houseing, food nor water? This by the way is a great economic fallacy...Even though productions cost are lower in some countries, by this economic benefits, they will be forced to look out for low cost nation as well after a while...Levelling the playing firled one might say.

It's an accurate phrase, and if we allow the Nazis to preclude us from using it, that means Hitler has won his campaign of terrorism (that's liberal logic, mind you).Meh. That's pretty stupid, even for your level.

what would these low cost slaves work for if they cannot afford to pay for houseing, food nor water?

If they wisely employ their money, they will be able to secure adequate housing and food. If they squander their money on extravagances, however, they will not.

If they wisely employ their money, they will be able to secure adequate housing and food. If they squander their money on extravagances, however, they will not.No they won't. If you want them to be able to live in America, they'll need American wages to afford American products.

Most retarded statement ever...A nationalistic economy never works...Can someone please tell this guy that capitalism is not the same as USAism...hehe

Meh. That's pretty stupid, even for your level.

It's not my level; I'm paraphrasing what many liberals say. To quote them, "If we let 9/11 make us accept warrant-less wire-tapping, that means the terrorists have won!" It's extremely faulty logic.

If they wisely employ their money, they will be able to secure adequate housing and food. If they squander their money on extravagances, however, they will not.

You also think a person can become a millionaire on $15K/year. You consider heat, electricity, and food to be an "extravagance".

If they wisely employ their money, they will be able to secure adequate housing and food. If they squander their money on extravagances, however, they will not.


Hehe, yes, whereas China still allows low wages as 1 dollar an hour, meaning that you will have to beat that, 24 dollars a day, about 750 a month...and that is rent plus food?

It's not my level; I'm paraphrasing what many liberals say. To quote them, "If we let 9/11 make us accept warrant-less wire-tapping, that means the terrorists have won!" It's extremely faulty logic.

That has utterly nothing to do with Hitler, by the way, or "Arbeit Macht Frei".
Why do you always invoke "liberals" and September 11th every time your argument starts to collapse?

No they won't. If you want them to be able to live in America, they'll need American wages to afford American products.

A pack of hot dogs costs $1 dollar and can last for three full meals. Water can be obtained for free in many places. Hot dog buns cost $1 dollar for six full meals. That means that the total cost per meal is $1.50 dollars. Breakfast is slightly less expensive than lunch and dinner, and so only costs $1 dollar. All in all, the total cost of food is $4 dollars daily. Adequate housing can be quite inexpensive -- public storage costs $90 dollars per month, which is equivalent to $3 dollars per day. That amounts to total living expenses of $7 dollars per day. If you are willing to work for 10 hours a day, that means that you can work of $0.70 dollars per hour.

It's not my level; I'm paraphrasing what many liberals say. To quote them, "If we let 9/11 make us accept warrant-less wire-tapping, that means the terrorists have won!" It's extremely faulty logic.Nah. The fact that you think your paraphrase comparable to that shows a distinct lack of problem solving skills on your behalf.

That has utterly nothing to do with Hitler, by the way, or "Arbeit Macht Frei".
Why do you always invoke "liberals" and September 11th every time your argument starts to collapse?

That point was completely tangent to my argument; someone disliked my wording, and thus invoked Godwin's Law. Whenever people are incapable of debating me, they call me a Nazi -- whose argument, I ask you, is really collapsing?

A pack of hot dogs costs $1 dollar and can last for three full meals. Water can be obtained for free in many places. Hot dog buns cost $1 dollar for six full meals. That means that the total cost per meal is $1.50 dollars. Breakfast is slightly less expensive than lunch and dinner, and so only costs $1 dollar. All in all, the total cost of food is $4 dollars daily. Adequate housing can be quite inexpensive -- public storage costs $90 dollars per month, which is equivalent to $3 dollars per day. That amounts to total living expenses of $7 dollars per day. If you are willing to work for 10 hours a day, that means that you can work of $0.70 dollars per hour.

And who's going to pay for the medical costs after you collapse from malnutrition/frostbite or the multitude of diseases you'll catch from not having proper sanitary conditions?

Edit: Of course that's not including the costs for getting the ones that were tightpacked in shipping containers for the shipment to the US in good enough health to work.

A pack of hot dogs costs $1 dollar and can last for three full meals. Water can be obtained for free in many places. Hot dog buns cost $1 dollar for six full meals. That means that the total cost per meal is $1.50 dollars. Breakfast is slightly less expensive than lunch and dinner, and so only costs $1 dollar. All in all, the total cost of food is $4 dollars daily. Adequate housing can be quite inexpensive -- public storage costs $90 dollars per month, which is equivalent to $3 dollars per day. That amounts to total living expenses of $7 dollars per day. If you are willing to work for 10 hours a day, that means that you can work of $0.70 dollars per hour.

So you want your workers to live in storage blocks rather than houses, eating hot-dogs rather than healthy food? Yeah, I think you'll find a lot of your "workers" will end up committing suicide or becoming horribly unhealthy and unable to work.

A pack of hot dogs costs $1 dollar and can last for three full meals. Water can be obtained for free in many places. Hot dog buns cost $1 dollar for six full meals. That means that the total cost per meal is $1.50 dollars. Breakfast is slightly less expensive than lunch and dinner, and so only costs $1 dollar. All in all, the total cost of food is $4 dollars daily. Adequate housing can be quite inexpensive -- public storage costs $90 dollars per month, which is equivalent to $3 dollars per day. That amounts to total living expenses of $7 dollars per day. If you are willing to work for 10 hours a day, that means that you can work of $0.70 dollars per hour.That sounds almost as realistic as your bullshit get rich scheme where you can become a millionaire in no time flat. Are you a millionaire yet?

Whenever people are incapable of debating me, they call me a Nazi
In this case, it's with good cause. You unwittingly spouted a lot of Nazi propaganda, and then instead of explaining yourself, you shouted "9/11!". To all intents and purposes.
And let's not forget the conditions you expect the workers to live in. Poorly fed, unhealthy, with no medical care, living in cramped conditions, working massively long hours. Remind you of a certain group of people in Nazi Germany?

That point was completely tangent to my argument; someone disliked my wording, and thus invoked Godwin's Law. Whenever people are incapable of debating me, they call me a Nazi -- whose argument, I ask you, is really collapsing?

whichever one believes that exploitation of workers is fascism, though the people who argue this point fail to realize that the same exploitation happens in China, Japan, and Mexico (naming only a few...) every day.

So you want your workers to live in storage blocks rather than houses, eating hot-dogs rather than healthy food? Yeah, I think you'll find a lot of your "workers" will end up committing suicide or becoming horribly unhealthy and unable to work.

No; they previously lived in much worse conditions in Africa. I recently read a New Yorker article detailing life in Lagos, and it was quite depressing, and much worse than anything experienced in the US.

How can people believe immigrant workers will not work for less pay?

In China, there have been thousands of poor coal miners that have died in government subsidized coal mines, more than any other nation on the face of the earth, and yet they all go back to work every day because they are getting paid by a government willing to punish them in the extreme.

No; they previously lived in much worse conditions in Africa. I recently read a New Yorker article detailing life in Lagos, and it was quite depressing, and much worse than anything experienced in the US.

And what's the mortality rate there?

That sounds almost as realistic as your bullshit get rich scheme where you can become a millionaire in no time flat. Are you a millionaire yet?

Of course not, since I currently have to pay for college. However, we'll see in 20 years.

whichever one believes that exploitation of workers is fascism, though the people who argue this point fail to realize that the same exploitation happens in China, Japan, and Mexico (naming only a few...) every day.
In what way do we fail to realise that? Just because we don't say that we condemn the actions in those countries, doesn't mean we don't.

For example, you haven't written that you hate people stabbing puppies and then throwing them into meat-grinders, but I assume that you do. I hope that you do.

Of course not, since I currently have to pay for college. However, we'll see in 20 years.

Why do you "need" college if anyone can do it on $15K/year? Unless you want a higher standard of living than you feel is necessary for anyone else.

And what's the mortality rate there?

It's quite high. However, businesses will provide medical care rather than lose their investment. Also, the living conditions are much more sanitary in the US than in Lagos, even with under $1 dollar a day to spare.

Why do you "need" college if anyone can do it on $15K/year? Unless you want a higher standard of living than you feel is necessary for anyone else.

Because I can become a millionaire quicker if I am well educated. It's possible to become quite affluent on $15,000 dollars per year, but it's much easier on $150,000 dollars per year.

It's quite high. However, businesses will provide medical care rather than lose their investment. Also, the living conditions are much more sanitary in the US than in Lagos, even with under $1 dollar a day to spare.

Not if they don't have toilets or showers in their boxes.

Of course now you just upped the cost of their maintenance and put it on the businesses exclusively. Now costs will go up and your $1 hot dog package now costs $5 due to all the expenses of constantly reviving the workers.

Basically you're saying "Hey folks, We'll give you a slightly less chance of dieing horribly if you come work for us".

Because I can become a millionaire quicker if I am well educated. It's possible to become quite affluent on $15,000 dollars per year, but it's much easier on $150,000 dollars per year.

If you want to save America's economy, why don't you just teach everyone how to become super-rich?

That point was completely tangent to my argument; someone disliked my wording, and thus invoked Godwin's Law. Whenever people are incapable of debating me, they call me a Nazi -- whose argument, I ask you, is really collapsing?Please quote me where I called you a Nazi.

Because I can become a millionaire quicker if I am well educated. It's possible to become quite affluent on $15,000 dollars per year, but it's much easier on $150,000 dollars per year.

No, it's not. Not even close and you're lying to yourself and everyone here if you keep saying it is. I highly doubt w/ the mathematical/social skills you've presented here, you'll ever make $150K/year.

If you want to save America's economy, why don't you just teach everyone how to become super-rich?

I have proposed mandatory economics classes, yes. That would serve to spur economic growth.

If you want to save America's economy, why don't you just teach everyone how to become super-rich?

It's basically, "Live in unheated, unlighted boxes eating unhealthy, cheap food on a starvation diet for your entire life, and, if you're lucky enough to live to 65 and pay no taxes the entire time, you'll have a million dollars in the bank based off of his math.

I have proposed mandatory economics classes, yes. That would serve to spur economic growth.

You should take some.

Please quote me where I called you a Nazi.

You didn't call me a Nazi per se. You simply stated that I was exactly like a Nazi.

Then again, the Nazis beat you to the idea of using cheap foreign near slave labor for domestic companies. Using their phrases is hardly going to persuade anyone that you're not following in their footsteps.

I have proposed mandatory economics classes, yes. That would serve to spur economic growth.

How?

You should take some.

I have, for your information. However, it is by no means my major.

How?

By enticing people to invest in our economy, thus allowing businesses to expand and become more profitable.

I have, for your information. However, it is by no means my major.

You should have paid more attention.

It's basically, "Live in unheated, unlighted boxes eating unhealthy, cheap food on a starvation diet for your entire life, and, if you're lucky enough to live to 65 and pay no taxes the entire time, you'll have a million dollars in the bank based off of his math.

Robbing banks is probably safer and more profitable. Takes less time, too.

By enticing people to invest in our economy, thus allowing businesses to expand and become more profitable.

How would economic classes get people to invest more?

You should have paid more attention.

Would you care to point our the mistake which you feel I have made, or will you continue to resort to puerile insults?

You didn't call me a Nazi per se. You simply stated that I was exactly like a Nazi.I see. I was saying that your actions were similar to those of Nazis, which is why people might get the idea that you're a Nazi. Not the same as flinging the term out as a simple smear tactic, is it?

By enticing people to invest in our economy, thus allowing businesses to expand and become more profitable.

I would vote for a movement to a more laissez-faire (i do believe i spelled that correctly) type of capitalism, instead of a government-dicated capitalism, to spur the full exploitation of our resources for the betterment of our economy.

history dictates that, whenever our economy prospers, we find new ways to exploit our land with lessened consequences, which is only a good thing. *Read a little into the Agro Revolution in the 1800s*

Would you care to point our the mistake which you feel I have made, or will you continue to resort to puerile insults?

I have, numerous times. You just keep ignoring them.

Try looking at health care costs again puppy.

Would you care to point our the mistake which you feel I have made, or will you continue to resort to puerile insults?

Here's one glaring error you've made: Living in a corrugated, unheated metal box eating cold hot-dogs will not create a healthy, productive workforce. It'll probably create a workforce who will save up their pennies, buy a cheap pistol and shoot their boss.

I see. I was saying that your actions were similar to those of Nazis, which is why people might get the idea that you're a Nazi. Not the same as flinging the term out as a simple smear tactic, is it?

look, using the word "Nazi" anywhere in this thread to attack someone is silly.

How would economic classes get people to invest more?

They would teach them about various financial systems, the risks and benefits of investing, etc. An increased knowledge of our system would push more people to invest, since the informed tend to invest, knowing that it is safe and a sure supply of money.

Here's one glaring error you've made: Living in a corrugated, unheated metal box eating cold hot-dogs will not create a healthy, productive workforce. It'll probably create a workforce who will save up their pennies, buy a cheap pistol and shoot their boss.Not if MTAE gets his way! If his plan to give everyone guns succeeds, they won't need to save up those pennies!

Here's one glaring error you've made: Living in a corrugated, unheated metal box eating cold hot-dogs will not create a healthy, productive workforce. It'll probably create a workforce who will save up their pennies, buy a cheap pistol and shoot their boss.

They won't be able to afford one after the health care costs from the constanlty hospitalized workers force prices to increase.

unheated...cold

I believe our ancestors mastered the secret of fire.

look, using the word "Nazi" anywhere in this thread to attack someone is silly.Oh, dear. The next time I see someone using words that closely resemble Nazi rhetoric to promote what closely resembles Nazi ideals, I'll just shut up. :rolleyes:

Not if MTAE gets his way! If his plan to give everyone guns succeeds, they won't need to save up those pennies!

Thank God for President MTAE.

They won't be able to afford one after the health care costs from the constanlty hospitalized workers force prices to increase.

Health costs are not so exorbitant, and the workers would not be too overworked or malnourished. They are getting by with no medical care and no food in places like Lagos -- some medical care and sufficient food must be an improvement.

I believe our ancestors mastered the secret of fire.But then they'd have to pay for the burns they'd receive because they've been keeping a fire in a small box they live in!

Oh, dear. The next time I see someone using words that closely resemble Nazi rhetoric to promote what closely resembles Nazi ideals, I'll just shut up. :rolleyes:

sorry, i believe importing foreigners for the betterment of economics is Stalinist rhetoric, not Nazi rhetoric.

Not if MTAE gets his way! If his plan to give everyone guns succeeds, they won't need to save up those pennies!

But does his plan to make poor and subjectively stupid people slaves include giving them firearms? Or is that just the priveledged class?

So we have socialized health-care and firearms for the priveledged elite. Those sound like plans of the "ebil liberals" MTAE is always denouncing.

I believe our ancestors mastered the secret of fire.

Sitting in a near-airtight storage box burning whatever rubbish they could find to use as fuel will kill people. Try again.

Health costs are not so exorbitant, and the workers would not be too overworked or malnourished. They are getting by with no medical care and no food in places like Lagos -- some medical care and sufficient food must be an improvement.

W/ a high mortality rate.

I guess these workers should just be allowed to die here too, right?

They would teach them about various financial systems, the risks and benefits of investing, etc. An increased knowledge of our system would push more people to invest, since the informed tend to invest, knowing that it is safe and a sure supply of money.

Over the last few decades people have learned that overeating is unhealthy, yet obesity is a growing problem. How would this be different?

So we have socialized health-care and firearms for the priveledged elite. Those sound like plans of the "ebil liberals" MTAE is always denouncing.

We should give guns to all, as that is a police expense and a law and order expense more than it is a socialist subsidy. However, the state should provide no health care whatsoever.

I believe our ancestors mastered the secret of fire.

And they'ld burn what, exactly?

W/ a high mortality rate.

I guess these workers should just be allowed to die here too, right?

The dead bodies would be harvested for their organs.

Sitting in a near-airtight storage box burning whatever rubbish they could find to use as fuel will kill people. Try again.

One needs not resort to fire; heaters can be purchased with $10 dollars.

We should give guns to all, as that is a police expense and a law and order expense more than it is a socialist subsidy. However, the state should provide no health care whatsoever.

So that when a rich land-owner is shot to death by a malnourished African near-slave, the paramedics can rifle his pockets for a wallet before they resuscitate him. Cool.

It's a rough estimate. It can't cost much more, though, or it wouldn't be profitable to transport any cheap good via a cargo ship. If something that costs $2 per unit can be shipped to the US from Africa, and a profit can be turned, then it can't be so incredibly expensive to move it.

Bulk cargo do not eat nor does it have excrement ... Nor need any sort of care or room

Unless you want useless dead humans on arrival you have to provide more then that.

We should give guns to all, as that is a police expense and a law and order expense more than it is a socialist subsidy.

And you don't think this class of slaves and below subsistence workers wouldn't rise up? Pay more attention in school.

However, the state should provide no health care whatsoever.

But you said the companies would have to provide it for them (not capitalistic) causing costs of all products to rise as they collapse from burns, cold, poioning, and malnutrition.

They would teach them about various financial systems, the risks and benefits of investing, etc. An increased knowledge of our system would push more people to invest, since the informed tend to invest, knowing that it is safe and a sure supply of money.
Nice one - we'll have everyone with their money in stocks, shares and credit - now just remind me - what happened at the end of twenties because of that?

One needs not resort to fire; heaters can be purchased with $10 dollars.

W/ what electricity or fuel?

So that when a rich land-owner is shot to death by a malnourished African near-slave, the paramedics can rifle his pockets for a wallet before they resuscitate him. Cool.

Once the identity of the man is verified, he can be transported to a hospital by the state. However, the hospital would be a privately-owned enterprise.

Indeed.

ever wonder why your Honda or Nissan is so cheap? theyre made in Mexico where labor laws hardly exist!

Yeah like their plant in Tennessee or Mississippi :rolleyes:

The dead bodies would be harvested for their organs.

We could feed them to the workers. That would cut costs even more.

Unless you want useless dead humans on arrival you have to provide more then that.

He doesn't really care. He seems to believe that carbon-monoxide-poisoned, starving angry Africans will make good workers. Presumably he feels similarly about corpses.

And you don't think this class of slaves and below subsistence workers wouldn't rise up?

No, since they voluntarily agreed to work. Also, since they would not be US citizens, they would not be entitled to firearms.

Once the identity of the man is verified, he can be transported to a hospital by the state. However, the hospital would be a privately-owned enterprise.

Unsurprisingly, the average identity check takes longer than it takes for a man who's been shot in the chest to die.

Once the identity of the man is verified, he can be transported to a hospital by the state. However, the hospital would be a privately-owned enterprise.

Why state run emergency transportation. Its socialized emergency services.

Once the identity of the man is verified, he can be transported to a hospital by the state. However, the hospital would be a privately-owned enterprise.

What would force the companies to provide the health care? Why should they when they can just dump the corpse and ship in a new slave.... sorry, worker for your mythal $35 on the next packed transport?

Also, since they would not be US citizens, they would not be entitled to firearms.

Oh, yeah, good point. Because nobody illegally sells firearms to people who aren't entitled to them, right?

No, since they voluntarily agreed to work. Also, since they would not be US citizens, they would not be entitled to firearms.

Legal immigrants can own firearms.

No, since they voluntarily agreed to work. Also, since they would not be US citizens, they would not be entitled to firearms.

So an underclass w/o rights?

You keep forgetting about all your "happy slaves".

He doesn't really care. He seems to believe that carbon-monoxide-poisoned, starving angry Africans will make good workers. Presumably he feels similarly about corpses.

They will be exceedingly happy at being rescued from their horrible squalor in Africa and shipped to a less terrible condition in the US. They will certainly not be poisoned by carbon monoxide unless they choose to live in an air-tight container. They would have plenty to eat, as a full meal can be cheaply purchased in the US. But yes, they will make good workers.

Its interesting but Singapore already does exactly this. If you are a Singaporean or Chinese national then your minimum wage is higher than Malaysian or Pilipino immigrant workers whose minimum wages are in turn more than those from India or Bangladesh. Essentially if you see someone cleaning toilets.. emptying garbage.. or semiskilled construction work they will be Indian / Bangladeshi .. guaranteed.

Seems to work well for them. The Bangladeshis come over for 3 years.. live in a cargo crate (literally) and eat at special Bangladeshi food halls.. (mostly just rice and some thin curries). They essentially spend 1/3 of their $3 an hour wages on buying a licence to come over and the transport. 1/3 on living expenses (cargo crate, and rice with dishwater) and send the other 1/3 home. That 1/3 of $3 an hour is enough to set them up for life, comparatively, where they come from.

I am not saying I agree with the idea. Its shocking.. its awful.. but its already being done, and successfully in another first world country.......

They will be exceedingly happy at being rescued from their horrible squalor in Africa and shipped to a less terrible condition in the US. They will certainly not be poisoned by carbon monoxide unless they choose to live in an air-tight container. They would have plenty to eat, as a full meal can be cheaply purchased in the US. But yes, they will make good workers.

Not for 35 bucks a person to ship

You based your cost estimate on inanimate bulk cargo ... bulk cargo does not need food nor watter nor air to live

Humans do

Unless you think dead people will work hard for you

Unsurprisingly, the average identity check takes longer than it takes for a man who's been shot in the chest to die.

That's why we should implant identity chips in every US citizen from birth. We can be assured of a mysterious person's identity without searching for a wallet.

They will be exceedingly happy at being rescued from their horrible squalor in Africa and shipped to a less terrible condition in the US. They will certainly not be poisoned by carbon monoxide unless they choose to live in an air-tight container. They would have plenty to eat, as a full meal can be cheaply purchased in the US. But yes, they will make good workers.

You just keep going round and round. You assume they'll be happy to go from one squalor to another because you assume businesses will provide health care for them. You assume they can live in storage boxes w/o heat or electricity but can buy heaters to be powered by nothing. You assume they can constantly eat the same low nutrition food every day and keep up 10hr + work days.

That's why we should implant identity chips in every US citizen from birth. We can be assured of a mysterious person's identity without searching for a wallet.

Very Orwellian of you. We'll all have a chip in our heads like cats.

Oh, yeah, good point. Because nobody illegally sells firearms to people who aren't entitled to them, right?

Actually, it would be legal to sell firearms to the immigrants. However, they certainly would not want to rise up. How many people rose up in Lagos? None; they simply accept the system.

That's why we should implant identity chips in every US citizen from birth. We can be assured of a mysterious person's identity without searching for a wallet.

And then the Gov't can track each and every one of us to make sure we're "safe", right? For our own goods?

You first.

That's why we should implant identity chips in every US citizen from birth. We can be assured of a mysterious person's identity without searching for a wallet.
*sighs*

What's to stop people taking them out of dead bodies and putting them in new immigrants, or just making replicas?

So an underclass w/o rights?

Of course they have rights, and they are much happier than they were in Africa.

Mexico, although possessing a terrible economy, is in a much better state than dirt-poor African countries. Because of this, Mexicans will have some minimum standards below which they will not sink; this would not hold true when dealing with Africans.
Read and be educated. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa)

http://map.africa-atlas.com/pictures/physical-africa.jpg

When I was a child, bullies used to play a game called "stop hitting yourself" where they'd use my fists to hit my own face. I suppose it affected me quite profoundly, as I like to play a game called "stop arguing with yourself".
They will certainly not be poisoned by carbon monoxide unless they choose to live in an air-tight container.

So what will they live in then, MTAE?
Adequate housing can be quite inexpensive -- public storage costs $90 dollars per month

Ok, well, those aren't ventilated. How will they heat their "houses"?
I believe our ancestors mastered the secret of fire.

Fire in a non-ventilated area?

And no, I haven't taken these out of context. Check the original posts if you like.

Actually, it would be legal to sell firearms to the immigrants. However, they certainly would not want to rise up. How many people rose up in Lagos? None; they simply accept the system.

Civilians aren't allowed legal firearms but the criminals have them.

As for civil war in Nigeria:

http://www.nigeria-planet.com/The-Nigerian-Civil-War.html

Apparently you don't pay attention in History/PoliSci either.

The solution is to implement a system of "in-sourcing." In effect, we should import low-cost workers from abroad and employ them to great effect in US industries.

I think I may have heard of this before.

It's called, "immigration."

For them, work will be liberty.

If we transport these immigrants in cargo ships, the cost per passenger should be negligible. We can transport hundreds to the US in one ship for only several thousands dollars.

Ah yes, it wouldn't be an MTAE trolling thread without positive references to nazis, slavery, bigotry, xenophobia, supremacism, racism or any other iconoclastic attention-getting bullshit.

you assume businesses will provide health care for them.

I assume that they will take no undue risks which would expose them to disease. I need not remind you that there is no health care whatsoever in Lagos. Even though they will not be entitled to an excellent standard of life in the US, it will be better than what they received in Africa.

You assume they can live in storage boxes w/o heat or electricity but can buy heaters to be powered by nothing.

No, they can live in one-bedroom apartments in Public Storage areas. They do have electricity, and some even have heat.

You assume they can constantly eat the same low nutrition food every day and keep up 10hr + work days.

They may vary their diet, as long as it is kept within some reasonable bounds.

Of course they have rights, and they are much happier than they were in Africa.

They "are"? This is happening now or are you just making things up again? Like you having no puppets.

They may vary their diet, as long as it is kept within some reasonable bounds.

Cold hot-dogs one day, stale bread the next. Rotten milk on special occasions, like when the latest boss has been shot and had his ID chip ripped out so that the paramedics left him for dead.

I assume that they will take no undue risks which would expose them to disease. I need not remind you that there is no health care whatsoever in Lagos. Even though they will not be entitled to an excellent standard of life in the US, it will be better than what they received in Africa.

More assumptions based off of your lack of knowledge.



No, they can live in one-bedroom apartments in Public Storage areas. They do have electricity, and some even have heat.

Who pays for the electricity? And the heat? You first said "Public Storage". None of these have "apartments" for your mythical $90/month. And up goes the price again.



They may vary their diet, as long as it is kept within some reasonable bounds.

You stated "hot dogs" for your mythomath. Now you're adjusting things and varying their diet. Up goes the costs.

So what will they live in then, MTAE?


Public storage areas are indeed ventilated and cheap.

http://www.publicstorage.com/Estimate/ssEstimate.aspx

Public storage areas are indeed ventilated and cheap.

http://www.publicstorage.com/Estimate/ssEstimate.aspx
Now show me the ones w/ proper ventilation, electricity, and heat along w/ even basic sanitary facilities for your mythomath estimates.

Public storage areas are indeed ventilated and cheap.


Ok. Ultimately irrelevant, as you can't light a fire inside one without dying.

sorry, i believe importing foreigners for the betterment of economics is Stalinist rhetoric, not Nazi rhetoric.It's not rhetoric at all, actually. Regardless, the Nazis used plenty of Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Czechs, and lots of others. Called "Zwangsarbeiter" (forced laborers) in German.

Ok. Ultimately irrelevant, as you can't light a fire inside one without dying.

Even if you use an electric heater, can you imagine the bill from all those open air ports?

And up goes the costs.

Ok. Ultimately irrelevant, as you can't light a fire inside one without dying.

I'm not advocating such a practice. I am suggesting that the immigrants purchase a heater for $10 dollars for all their heating needs. I am sure they can find some apartment which provides electricity for under $100 dollars per month -- Public Storage offers some apartments for half that price.

Even if you use an electric heater, can you imagine the bill from all those open air ports?

And up goes the costs.

To offset that, they could alternate which days they eat, and only bathe in nearby rivers.

To offset that, they could alternate which days they eat, and only bathe in nearby rivers.

They can also scavenge unused food from other sources, eat berries from the forest, etc. As long as they're creative, they'll do fine. Buddhist monks were able to live without earning any money daily.

I'm not advocating such a practice. I am suggesting that the immigrants purchase a heater for $10 dollars for all their heating needs. I am sure they can find some apartment which provides electricity for under $100 dollars per month -- Public Storage offers some apartments for half that price.

"You are sure" they can? Do it. You're "assumptions" are getting tiring.

I'm not advocating such a practice. I am suggesting that the immigrants purchase a heater for $10 dollars for all their heating needs.

"Ma, turn the heater up again, it's my eating day and I bought a pack of cheap hot-dogs. God, this cholera is killing me!"

"You are sure" they can? Do it. You're "assumptions" are getting tiring.

Your annoying and inane posts are also getting old. If you can find an apartment with $50 dollars, you can also find a similar one for $100 dollars. End of story. Shut up.

They can also scavenge unused food from other sources, eat berries from the forest, etc. As long as they're creative, they'll do fine. Buddhist monks were able to live without earning any money daily.

So now they're eating out of the trash and scavenging food w/o knowing which are edible or not.

And up go the health care costs.

I thought you "assumed" they weren't taking risks to avoid disease.

They can also scavenge unused food from other sources, eat berries from the forest, etc. As long as they're creative, they'll do fine. Buddhist monks were able to live without earning any money daily.

Scavenge berries from nearby forests? What, on the job? "I'm just clocking out and heading down to the local massive forest during my lunch hour to find some berries so I don't starve to death!"

And as for Buddhist monks, they don't scavenge like animals. They are given food by local people.

Your annoying and inane posts are also getting old. If you can find an apartment with $50 dollars, you can also find a similar one for $100 dollars. End of story. Shut up.

You have an "apartment" for $50/month? Oh, no, that's your unheated , corrugated metal box again.

End of story.

They can also scavenge unused food from other sources, eat berries from the forest, etc. As long as they're creative, they'll do fine. Buddhist monks were able to live without earning any money daily.

Buddhist monks are shameless panhandlers. :P

Buddhist monks are shameless panhandlers. :P

Well what else will these people have to do when they're off work?

Maybe these in-sourced workers should just become Buddhist monks instead of slaves.

Maybe these in-sourced workers should just become Buddhist monks instead of slaves.

No, the slaves are the stupid and poor people. Oh, wait....

No, the slaves are the stupid and poor people. Oh, wait....

Poor people aren't necessarily slaves; only the stupid.

Poor people aren't necessarily slaves; only the stupid.

All stupid people are slaves?

Poor people aren't necessarily slaves; only the stupid.

So you'ld give "stupid" people guns?


I'm still waiting for these $50/month apartments w/ electricity and heat.

All stupid people are slaves?

With guns.

I'm still waiting for these $50/month apartments w/ electricity and heat.

Me too! I might even move to America if it's that cheap.

Look I don't think you can argue with the technical details of this kind of proposal... much as I hate to say it. It would work just fine!!

Similar systems are all ready in place in other parts of the world.. with, as I pointed out earlier Singapore as an excellent example. If they can do it I don't see how it would be a problem for the US to do the same. (technically not morally)

I think the argument is really in the realms of ethics.... and frankly I actually am beginning to think it may actually be a good idea. Perhaps if people were confronted with the levels of poverty and suffering of the people they are already exploiting they may actually be forced to think about the effects their actions have on other people.

At the moment people are being exploited in 3rd worldd countries by first world companies... if first world coutries actually had the workforce within their own borders they may be forced to actually think about the levels of exploitation they are responsible for.......

if first world coutries actually had the workforce within their own borders they may be forced to actually think about the levels of exploitation they are responsible for.......

That might be a bit much to ask for.

Look I don't think you can argue with the technical details of this kind of proposal... much as I hate to say it. It would work just fine!!

Similar systems are all ready in place in other parts of the world.. with, as I pointed out earlier Singapore as an excellent example. If they can do it I don't see how it would be a problem for the US to do the same. (technically not morally)

I think the argument is really in the realms of ethics.... and frankly I actually am beginning to think it may actually be a good idea. Perhaps if people were confronted with the levels of poverty and suffering of the people they are already exploiting they may actually be forced to think about the effects their actions have on other people.

At the moment people are being exploited in 3rd worldd countries by first world companies... if first world coutries actually had the workforce within their own borders they may be forced to actually think about the levels of exploitation they are responsible for.......



And who's subisidizing these "homes"/food halls? Do these workers have health insurance?

Me too! I might even move to America if it's that cheap.

I said $100 dollars, not $50 dollars. However, you would most likely have to pay for you electricity and heat usage.

I said $100 dollars, not $50 dollars. However, you would most likely have to pay for you electricity and heat usage.

Nope, you said $100 w/ that including electricity.

Try again.

Stop arguing with yourself!
I said $100 dollars, not $50 dollars. However, you would most likely have to pay for you electricity and heat usage.
Stop arguing with yourself!
I am sure they can find some apartment which provides electricity for under $100 dollars per month -- Public Storage offers some apartments for half that price.
Stop arguing with yourself!
Sorry, but those bullies took my soul along with my lunch money.

And who's subisidizing these "homes"/food halls? Do these workers have health insurance?

Essentially the workers are by accepting much lower wages and work conditions.

If an employer normally has to pay say $1500 for a worker and can now pay $300 a worker even if they have to put some money towards an initial capital investment ( a few shipping crates and gas cooker) then it very quickly becomes a worthwhile investment.

And no I wouldn't imagine they do have health insurance... but neither would they have health insurance at home.

If they get hurt they are in trouble.. they can't work.. but as they are paying for their work visa etc not their employer that is their problem not the employers...

Its a cruel world outside the comfortable borders of most first world countries... and yet people living in first world countries are for some reason always willing to try and remove those safeguards that have been put in place to reduce exploitation in the name of economic progress.... don't ask me why... I don't understand.

So let me get it strait this entire theory hangs on it being economical.

The assumptions based on this are horrendous

Assumptions
1) Transportation can be provided economically

2) Housing prices will be low enough to maintain workers health and interest

3) Civil support can be made cheep enough to make this economical

4) That people will both accept the offer and abide by it


So far I have not seen proof of ANY of these being reasonable, There is no way that transportation will be as low as the 35 the OP originally quoted, maintaining what is necessary for a human (air water food basic sanitary conditions)

That apartments or the equivalent with enough to maintain the life of the worker

The increase in crime from impoverished second class citizens is easily enough to take care of 3, not to mention the paperwork and other administrative tasks required

4) Doubtful that most of these people after getting a taste of America will be content to follow step after awhile, to maintain and deport any person that does not abide by the rules will be a major civil or corporate undertaking

The corporations do not have the money to track down rule breakers and runaway nor the infrastructure to do it, they would have to attempt to re-reimburse civil authorities for the cost ... not cheep

Stop arguing with yourself!

I see no contradiction there. You claimed that Public Storage was only a corrugated metal box. That would imply that no electrical outlets were offered. I claimed the opposite.

Nice proposal you have there in the op. I'm so impressed by it I'd like to make one myself. My modest proposal is that we give unwanted babies and to the poor as food. This will not only help feed the hungry but will also reduce our surpluss population.
...
Well, what do you think?

I see no contradiction there. You claimed that Public Storage was only a corrugated metal box. That would imply that no electrical outlets were offered. I claimed the opposite.

And still have offered no tangible evidence to support yourself. Shock. Surprise.

Outsourcing is like a evasive mosquito, buzzing around America's head and intermittently sucking its blood. It does not pose a great risk to the economic viability of the US, but it slightly endangers it. However, we can turn that "frown" upside-down!

The solution is to implement a system of "in-sourcing." In effect, we should import low-cost workers from abroad and employ them to great effect in US industries. Our ever-increasing trade deficit can be blamed on the extremely poor economies of various socialist countries and their minute costs of production. Nonetheless, that problem can be easily rectified by enticing those workers to share in the bounty of the US economy. In many African countries, for example, the poor live in unimaginable squalor -- they sleep in the dirt and must work continuously if they wish to acquire sufficient money to purchase the necessities of life. They would be willing to sacrifice life and limb for a chance to labor in the great and welcoming US. However, they lack sufficient funds for such a journey. Being generous, we should provide for their voyage and arrange for them to legally immigrate. However, there should be one caveat. We cannot allow them to drain all our welfare benefits; they should not be given anything at all by the state. For them, work will be liberty. If they toil, they will be proportionately rewarded by a clean home and food. Their standard of living will be vastly improved, even if it falls below our standards.

In any case, there will be plenty of entrepeneurs who will be willing to hire such workers for below minimum wage. It will allow us to tap into a copious supply of cheap labor at no cost to ourselves. Not only that, but it will boost the quality of life for these hapless immigrants by allowing them access to a much easier and much more forgiving life. The only problem is the cost, but that should be easily dealt with. If we transport these immigrants in cargo ships, the cost per passenger should be negligible. We can transport hundreds to the US in one ship for only several thousands dollars. It is a win-win proposition for both the US economy and poor African citizens, and we should go forward with it.

We have unions for a reason you douchebag. Fuck slavery

We have unions for a reason you douchebag. Fuck slavery

You have unions... but no law against using labour in countries that don't.

Which is worse?:
Hiring soemone in your own country at $3 an hour with some rights
OR
Hiring someone in another coutry to do the same work for 30c an hour with virtually no rights

Even though MTAEs idea sounds grotesque, its actually better than what is already going on in the US and most other first world countries...



The only difference is shipping folk from the third world to the first world countries to do the work.

While that doesn't technically happen in the US (illegal immigrants is probably not far from this situation.. just not legally realised) there are places where it does.

Slavery is alive and well.. the only differnece is that modern technology means that the slaves don't have to be working in the factories in your neighbourhood... you just keep the slaves elsewhere.

This might even help the oceans' shark populations tremendously! Great! :rolleyes:

You have unions... but no law against using labour in countries that don't.

Which is worse?:
Hiring soemone in your own country at $3 an hour with some rights
OR
Hiring someone in another coutry to do the same work for 30c an hour with virtually no rights

Even though MTAEs idea sounds grotesque, its actually better than what is already going on in the US and most other first world countries...



The only difference is shipping folk from the third world to the first world countries to do the work.

While that doesn't technically happen in the US (illegal immigrants is probably not far from this situation.. just not legally realised) there are places where it does.

Slavery is alive and well.. the only differnece is that modern technology means that the slaves don't have to be working in the factories in your neighbourhood... you just keep the slaves elsewhere.

true, but in keeping with the spirit of laissez-faire economics, we must adopt the same practices that other countries use already to regain competence in the price market.

japanese automakers, for example, outsource their jobs to mexico. so why is it so evil for america to outsource its jobs when American-made cars are more expensive than their Japanese counterparts primarily because labor is more expensive?

true, but in keeping with the spirit of laissez-faire economics, we must adopt the same practices that other countries use already to regain competence in the price market.

japanese automakers, for example, outsource their jobs to mexico. so why is it so evil for america to outsource its jobs when American-made cars are more expensive than their Japanese counterparts primarily because labor is more expensive?
And like I pointed out before at your Nissan example ... their two biggest most efficient plants are in Tennessee and Mississippi

Though a lot of that is because of automation

true, but in keeping with the spirit of laissez-faire economics, we must adopt the same practices that other countries use already to regain competence in the price market.

japanese automakers, for example, outsource their jobs to mexico. so why is it so evil for america to outsource its jobs when American-made cars are more expensive than their Japanese counterparts primarily because labor is more expensive?

So if its alright to outsource to a company that pays its employees 30c an hour in another country why is it ethically bad to import labour to work at $3 an hour?

There are some jobs that just can't be outsourced to other countries.. garbage collection, cleaning services etc... if its ok to exploit people in the car industry why can't you exploit people in the service industry??

You completely misunderstand me. We would not force anyone in compliance with this policy; they would willingly acquiesce, knowing that their quality of life will be vastly improved in the US. Additionally, they might be paid if they so desire. However, they could also opt for simply being provided food and housing, as well as a bit of money, which many would prefer. It will certainly be a flexible system.

It's quite clear that many American's already hate Mexican's showing up and "stealing their jobs". Presumably by mugging random American's outside Kwik e Mart and stealing it.

What makes you think they'd like having Africans imported?