NationStates Jolt Archive

For those in America, what does the 'Patriot Act' involve? you cant say anything against your country?

For those in America, what does the 'Patriot Act' involve? you cant say anything against your country?

No.

The american government can monitor phone calls coming in or out of america to other countries.

For those in America, what does the 'Patriot Act' involve? you cant say anything against your country?
Basically, it's the law that says "All Americans' will are Belong To Us".

It pretty much allows the US government to stalk you and if you say anything remotely "terroristic" they're allowed to arrest you and throw you in prison.

For those in America, what does the 'Patriot Act' involve? you cant say anything against your country?

No it doesn't mean we can's say anything against our nation. We for the most part still enjoy many Freedoms including Freedom of Speech and Expressions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

Basically, it's the law that says "All Americans' will are Belong To Us".

It pretty much allows the US government to stalk you and if you say anything remotely "terroristic" they're allowed to arrest you and throw you in prison.

I disagree.

What I do believe is that you are taken it way out of text and probably don't know the actual facts behind the Patriot Act.

No it doesn't mean we can's say anything against our nation. We for the most part still enjoy many Freedoms including Freedom of Speech and Expressions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
Many Freedoms? US airport security violates most of those freedoms.

EDIT: I read the article, the Supreme Court ruled that it violated tons of civil liberties, as did many states and cities.

I disagree.
so? he does not have to agree with you on everything.

No it doesn't mean we can's say anything against our nation. We for the most part still enjoy many Freedoms including Freedom of Speech and Expressions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

for the most part? :rolleyes:

Basically, it's the law that says "All Americans' will are Belong To Us".

It pretty much allows the US government to stalk you and if you say anything remotely "terroristic" they're allowed to arrest you and throw you in prison.

The Pancake's going through a hippy stage. :p

But what it really is a much needed law that allows our Glorious and Infallible Leader George W. Bush to further protect us from the evil muslims. He, and his trustworthy and kind associates are permitted to monitor enemy combatants in Oceania America and move them to Guantanamo Bay where they can be interrogated until they see the love of Big Brother Lord Bush.

Sonofabitch. I just wrote a long ass explaination of the act, and accidentally X'd out the page. I'll rewrite it in a sec, but that truly pisses me off!


I actually read the document, so let me go back and gather my notes for a second.

Many Freedoms? US airport security violates most of those freedoms.

Are you saying that even after 9/11, that we should just let people come go freely onto the planes?

What are the airport security screenings anyways? (I don't fly due to the fact that I have a fulltime local job here in Florida and instead of taking my vacation I just have my boss cut me a vacation check and I work through my vacation, however, for my jobs 6 yr anniversary this coming year I do intend on taking a vacation.)

Metal Detectors, cameras, baggage screening, random searches, to take shoes off, etc... Oh and the Air Marshalls....What freedoms are being violated. Perhaps, your rights to have the government protect the public? Please specify........

so? he does not have to agree with you on everything.

First, I never said nor do I expect him to agree with me, especially on everything.

Secondly, I do have a right to disagree as so do you and so does he.

Are you saying that even after 9/11, that we should just let people come go freely onto the planes?

What are the airport security screenings anyways? (I don't fly due to the fact that I have a fulltime local job here in Florida and instead of taking my vacation I just have my boss cut me a vacation check and I work through my vacation, however, for my jobs 6 yr anniversary this coming year I do intend on taking a vacation.)

Metal Detectors, cameras, baggage screening, random searches, to take shoes off, etc... Oh and the Air Marshalls....What freedoms are being violated. Perhaps, your rights to have the government protect the public? Please specify........

loads of freedoms. the airport "security" in your country would not do anything to stop terrorism.

Alright, second try.

Pyotr is actually wrong in this event. The Patriot Act allows the government to focus most of the power in the Executive Branch, through useage of

A: Illegal Wire Taps, Pen-Registers, and "Sneak and Peek" operations done by the police, without Court Warrants

B: Allows Government to arbitrarily state who is a terrorist. If branded a terrorist, you will be aprehended, and the right of habeus Corpus will no longer apply to you. For those who do not know what this is, it literally means "Produce the Body", or basically bring the accused before a judge. No longer neccessary though. Instead, you won't even be told what you are being accused of "Due to the possibility of terrorist organizations learning of American Operations", and other BS claims.

C: The Government has free ability to view your medical, financial, and library records, as well as approach book sellers and force them to tell what you have purchased lately.


D: In Cooperation with the Military Commissions Act, the Government can use torture to extract information from Supposed Terrorists. This can also be used on "Domestic peoples" or basically any of us. It is a frightening prospect, and seems like something out of a George Orwell novel, but its real.



Basically, the Government wants to eliminate the Judicial Branch from the equasion, and focus all power on Warlord Bush.

loads of freedoms. the airport "security" in your country would not do anything to stop terrorism.

You can't just say "loads" and expect everyone to agree with you suddenly. How about a proper argument

Are you saying that even after 9/11, that we should just let people come go freely onto the planes?

What are the airport security screenings anyways? (I don't fly due to the fact that I have a fulltime local job here in Florida and instead of taking my vacation I just have my boss cut me a vacation check and I work through my vacation, however, for my jobs 6 yr anniversary this coming year I do intend on taking a vacation.)

Metal Detectors, cameras, baggage screening, random searches, to take shoes off, etc... Oh and the Air Marshalls....What freedoms are being violated. Perhaps, your rights to have the government protect the public? Please specify........


Profiling, to say in the least, mostly ethnic. Middle Easterners get searched extra just for being Middle Eastern, but of course not sinless white Christian Americans.

Those "random" searches are mostly on Middle Easterners.

The Pancake's going through a hippy stage. :p

But what it really is a much needed law that allows our Glorious and Infallible Leader George W. Bush to further protect us from the evil muslims. He, and his trustworthy and kind associates are permitted to monitor enemy combatants in Oceania America and move them to Guantanamo Bay where they can be interrogated until they see the love of Big Brother Lord Bush.

Exactly. :mad:

loads of freedoms. the airport "security" in your country would not do anything to stop terrorism.

I'll agree that the airport security has a lot more work to do in becoming more secure. We also have Air Marshalls onboard most of the planes. That's a good back-up and proves that we are not solely dependent on the screeners and airport security for protection.

loads of freedoms. the airport "security" in your country would not do anything to stop terrorism.

"do you have a bomb with you?"
x-x

Are you saying that even after 9/11, that we should just let people come go freely onto the planes?

What are the airport security screenings anyways? (I don't fly due to the fact that I have a fulltime local job here in Florida and instead of taking my vacation I just have my boss cut me a vacation check and I work through my vacation, however, for my jobs 6 yr anniversary this coming year I do intend on taking a vacation.)

Metal Detectors, cameras, baggage screening, random searches, to take shoes off, etc... Oh and the Air Marshalls....What freedoms are being violated. Perhaps, your rights to have the government protect the public? Please specify........

6 Muslim men were forced to exit a plane, because they were Muslim. They were merely going home to California I believe it was, from a convention somewhere in the midwest, but a Passenger was terrified of having Muslims on an airplane with him.


Thats the freedom we've lost. I fear were on the verge of another Japanese Internment-esque time. Because thats where we're heading, and nobody would care, because our country is to damn stupid to understand.

Instead, you won't even be told what you are being accused of "Due to the possibility of terrorist organizations learning of American Operations", and other BS claims.


So if you're arrested and they wont tell you why, they think you're a terrorist:p


D: In Cooperation with the Military Commissions Act, the Government can use torture to extract information from Supposed Terrorists. This can also be used on "Domestic peoples" or basically any of us.


:eek:

If TOny Blair tries any of that shit, he'll be out on his ear faster than you can say 'Fuck off' in chinese (which will be quite a long time actually... id have to look it up.... ;) )

So if you're arrested and they wont tell you why, they think you're a terrorist:p



:eek:

If TOny Blair tries any of that shit, he'll be out on his ear faster than you can say 'Fuck off' in chinese (which will be quite a long time actually... id have to look it up.... ;) )

lol, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in America. Too bad though.

Profiling, to say in the least, mostly ethnic. Middle Easterners get searched extra just for being Middle Eastern, but of course not sinless white Christian Americans.

Those "random" searches are mostly on Middle Easterners.

(In my Opinion).......and that it should considering ALL of the Terrorists of 9/11 were Middle Easterners.

Like I said in a way earlier post regarding airport security, that to me, it makes sense to pull aside a young Middle Easterner rather than an 80 yr old lady of any race.

I'll agree that the airport security has a lot more work to do in becoming more secure. We also have Air Marshalls onboard most of the planes. That's a good back-up and proves that we are not solely dependent on the screeners and airport security for protection.

um... sounds like you fail to realise that must hijackings and bombings are stealth operations. your typical terrorist does not just buy seats in the back row, shout "allah ackbar" when the plane is over an ocean, and then fight his way up to the cockpit. and please tell me how banning people from taking bottled water onto a plane is supposed to do anything besides inconvence travellers.

lol, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in America. Too bad though.

I dont think it'll work like that here either...

Oh well, I plan to become Prime Minister, I'll sort it out ;)

(In my Opinion).......and that it should considering ALL of the Terrorists of 9/11 were Middle Easterners.

Like I said in a way earlier post regarding airport security, that to me, it makes sense to pull aside a young Middle Easterner rather than an 80 yr old lady of any race.


I disagree. I do not think that racial profiling does anything.


I should know. I was given hell in Germany because they thought I looked like a Neo Nazi. (I Guess Germans aren't fond of short hair.....)

(In my Opinion).......and that it should considering ALL of the Terrorists of 9/11 were Middle Easterners.

Like I said in a way earlier post regarding airport security, that to me, it makes sense to pull aside a young Middle Easterner rather than an 80 yr old lady of any race.

Anyone can be a terrorist. I'm a fourteen-year-old white girl with average grades and in marching band. Who's to say I'm not a terrorist?

Thats the freedom we've lost. I fear were on the verge of another Japanese Internment-esque time. Because thats where we're heading, and nobody would care, because our country is to damn stupid to understand.

yup.
Can't fly while muslim.
Can't pray in public while muslim.
Can't have more than one cell phone while muslim.
What else???

(In my Opinion).......and that it should considering ALL of the Terrorists of 9/11 were Middle Easterners.

and what about other terrorist attacks, where some of the terrorists were of other races?

um... sounds like you fail to realise that must hijackings and bombings are stealth operations. your typical terrorist does not just buy seats in the back row, shout "allah ackbar" when the plane is over an ocean, and then fight his way up to the cockpit. and please tell me how banning people from taking bottled water onto a plane is supposed to do anything besides inconvence travellers.
:confused: Explain pl0x? I seem to recall that that's pretty much what the 9/11 hijackers did, once they were on the plane...
And bottled water should be banned, period. :p

(In my Opinion).......and that it should considering ALL of the Terrorists of 9/11 were Middle Easterners.

Like I said in a way earlier post regarding airport security, that to me, it makes sense to pull aside a young Middle Easterner rather than an 80 yr old lady of any race.

This is why there is more than likely going to be a terrorist attack carried out by Caucasians(or pretty much anyone who doesn't fit into the standard profile of a terrorist).

:confused: Explain pl0x? I seem to recall that that's pretty much what the 9/11 hijackers did, once they were on the plane...
And bottled water should be banned, period. :p

tell me you are joking.

I'll agree that the airport security has a lot more work to do in becoming more secure. We also have Air Marshalls onboard most of the planes. That's a good back-up and proves that we are not solely dependent on the screeners and airport security for protection.

I don't think it has anywork to do. I think it was fine the way it was.


Look, shit happens. Thats why the terrorists were able to hijack those airplanes. It wasn't due to problems with America, it was due to problems with airplane pilots. Throughout the 1980s and 70s, there were numerous (And I mean NUMEROUS) Airplane hijackings. But the old saying was that if your plane was hijacked, you just got to see another country for free. Since usually they just wanted to go to Cuba or somewhere else so they could escape. Well, thats what the pilots and crew thought about these terrorists. They wanted to go to somewhere else.


Unforunately, these people were different. But hell, there is nothing we could do about that.

Like I said in a way earlier post regarding airport security, that to me, it makes sense to pull aside a young Middle Easterner rather than an 80 yr old lady of any race.

ARGH! The old lady searching meme strikes again!

Airport passengers are not divided into 80-year-old wheelchair bound grannies and guys named Achmed wearing kaffiyehs. Jose Padilla, and John Walker Lindh could get past a profiling security system with absurd ease.

tell me you are joking.
About what?

I disagree. I do not think that racial profiling does anything.


I should know. I was given hell in Germany because they thought I looked like a Neo Nazi. (I Guess Germans aren't fond of short hair.....)

Racial profiling does nothing. Let's say a group of 20 year old Hispanics firebombed a building in Los Angeles (hypothetical). Do we stop and "randomly" search all Hispanics who are boarding a flight to Los Angeles? What if the 90-year-old Asian lady is going to LA to bomb something? Or the 50-year-old white man in the business suit, or the teenage black girl who's going to LA to visit her father? Airport security officials don't know exactly what people are going anywhere for, just if they have bombs or guns or knives in their luggage.

I suppose some people haven't realized that the 9/11 attacks has forced America to take a stronger stand against terrorism. It would be GREAT to live in eternal peace. Peace Worldwide. The terrorists had forced us to rethink some important and very much controversial issues.

When America was struck on 9/11, It was more of an act against the American People than our government. It was an attack on our Freedoms and our way of Life. When they murdered more than 3000 innocent civilians, they stirred up a Hornets Nest.

I fully support the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act.

About what?

your post. every single part of it.

Racial profiling does nothing. Let's say a group of 20 year old Hispanics firebombed a building in Los Angeles (hypothetical). Do we stop and "randomly" search all Hispanics who are boarding a flight to Los Angeles? What if the 90-year-old Asian lady is going to LA to bomb something? Or the 50-year-old white man in the business suit, or the teenage black girl who's going to LA to visit her father? Airport security officials don't know exactly what people are going anywhere for, just if they have bombs or guns or knives in their luggage.

Exactly.

yup.
Can't fly while muslim.
Can't pray in public while muslim.
Can't have more than one cell phone while muslim.
What else???

I find that to be more of the Holocaust-esque era. Next thing you know, American Muslims are going to be randomly dragged out of their houses and loaded into trucks and trains on their way to God-knows-where.

I suppose some people haven't realized that the 9/11 attacks has forced America to take a stronger stand against terrorism. It would be GREAT to live in eternal peace. Peace Worldwide. The terrorists had forced us to rethink some important and very much controversial issues.

When America was struck on 9/11, It was more of an act against the American People than our government. It was an attack on our Freedoms and our way of Life. When they murdered more than 3000 innocent civilians, they stirred up a Hornets Nest.

I fully support the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act.

so hate freedom?

I suppose some people haven't realized that the 9/11 attacks has forced America to take a stronger stand against terrorism. It would be GREAT to live in eternal peace. Peace Worldwide. The terrorists had forced us to rethink some important and very much controversial issues.

When America was struck on 9/11, It was more of an act against the American People than our government. It was an attack on our Freedoms and our way of Life. When they murdered more than 3000 innocent civilians, they stirred up a Hornets Nest.

I fully support the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act.

Then you are not an American. You are an enemy of the people. I choose to ignore you.

I find that to be more of the Holocaust-esque era. Next thing you know, American Muslims are going to be randomly dragged out of their houses and loaded into trucks and trains on their way to God-knows-where.

Yet again, oh wise pancake, precisely what I thought. (And said) :D


...that really doesn't warrant a smiliy, I just wanted to stress that I'm not being a smart ass.

I suppose some people haven't realized that the 9/11 attacks has forced America to take a stronger stand against terrorism. It would be GREAT to live in eternal peace. Peace Worldwide. The terrorists had forced us to rethink some important and very much controversial issues.

When America was struck on 9/11, It was more of an act against the American People than our government. It was an attack on our Freedoms and our way of Life. When they murdered more than 3000 innocent civilians, they stirred up a Hornets Nest.

I fully support the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act.

All airport security freedom-vilating issues aside, we still can't profile Middle Easterners, or let the government basically stalk us and wait for us to slip up so they can scream "TERRORIST!" and drag us off in the middle of the night.

your post. every single part of it.
Well, I got the impression from you that the terrorists turn on active camouflage devices and quietly use ninja skills to dispose of the pilots. No, admittedly terrorist attacks can be stopped in the planning stage, but hijacking a plane is not exactly a 'stealth operation' when it gets underway.
And bottled water is stupid, the stuff comes out of the ground for next to no cost. :p

ARGH! The old lady searching meme strikes again!

Airport passengers are not divided into 80-year-old wheelchair bound grannies and guys named Achmed wearing kaffiyehs. Jose Padilla, and John Walker Lindh could get past a profiling security system with absurd ease.

Actually, I have to disagree.

Both Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh are currently imprisoned. :D

I find that to be more of the Holocaust-esque era. Next thing you know, American Muslims are going to be randomly dragged out of their houses and loaded into trucks and trains on their way to God-knows-where.

Not God-knows-where, Guantanamo.

Not God-knows-where, Guantanamo.

Or one of those CIA Run and Funded secret Prisons.


*COUGH STALAG LUFT III*
*COUGH AGAIN* AUSCHWITZ *COUGH!*

I find that to be more of the Holocaust-esque era.

The way Muslim political influence is exaggerated is reminiscent of Nazi exaggeration of Jewish Socio-financial influence.

Not God-knows-where, Guantanamo.

Actually, God might not even know where.....

We are at war. New York and the Pentagon got blown up, remember? The Patriot Act is a reflection of that.

People don't like it, they say it is an open ended war, there is no clear nation to wage it agsint, etc.

I don't like it either, and I'm sure neither does Bush. It was brought upon us against our will.

Or one of those CIA Run and Funded secret Prisons.


*COUGH STALAG LUFT III*
*COUGH AGAIN* AUSCHWITZ *COUGH!*

Yeah, they slipped my mind. On that note there are arrest warrants out against a number of CIA agents in various countries across the world for kidnapping people and disappearing them, or so I've heard.
*tries to remember the name of that guy who was on The Panel*

We are at war. New York and the Pentagon got blown up, remember? The Patriot Act is a reflection of that.

People don't like it, they say it is an open ended war, there is no clear nation to wage it agsint, etc.

I don't like it either, and I'm sure neither does Bush. It was brought upon us against our will.


Then you have been brainwashed. Listen, losing your freedom does not mean security! Bush wants Power! By making us loose our freedom, they get more power. Thats what this is about!


Open your eyes

We are at war. New York and the Pentagon got blown up, remember? The Patriot Act is a reflection of that.

People don't like it, they say it is an open ended war, there is no clear nation to wage it agsint, etc.

I don't like it either, and I'm sure neither does Bush. It was brought upon us against our will.

The terrorists did not force us to pass the patriot act, it due to our own fear.

The terrorists did not force us to pass the patriot act, it due to our own terror.

Edited and emphasis added.

Yeah, they slipped my mind. On that note there are arrest warrants out against a number of CIA agents in various countries across the world for kidnapping people and disappearing them, or so I've heard.
*tries to remember the name of that guy who was on The Panel*

I know who you're talking about, I just can't think of it either.


Anyway, yeah.....hopefully the new Democrats in office will change things. I can see MTAE hanging himself when the polls came in. lol

The terrorists did not force us to pass the patriot act, it due to our own fear.

Not exactly our own fear, unless by "our own fear" you really meant "the Party's fear".

Not exactly our own fear, unless by "our own fear" you really meant "the Party's fear".

Or the Parties desire for more money, power, and other....stuff.

Not exactly our own fear, unless by "our own fear" you really meant "the Party's fear".

Who elected said party? We did.

The american people have lost the war on terrorism by falling into a state of terror.

Then you are not an American. You are an enemy of the people. I choose to ignore you.

Since when does disagreeing with another declare somebody is "not an American" or "an enemy of the people". You don't have no earthly idea of who I am or what I do. I assure you I'm very much Pro-American, very much a Patriot. I do still have the right to disagree with yes even you.

Fine, that's your choice but remember when you point fingers, you have 3 more pointing right back at yourself.

Have a nice Day. :)

Not God-knows-where, Guantanamo. What I was thinking of.

Or one of those CIA Run and Funded secret Prisons.


*COUGH STALAG LUFT III*
*COUGH AGAIN* AUSCHWITZ *COUGH!* Auschwitz? Or are they going to make a new Auschwitz? :eek:

The way Muslim political influence is exaggerated is reminiscent of Nazi exaggeration of Jewish Socio-financial influence. Yep.

Actually, God might not even know where..... That's a bit scary....

I know who you're talking about, I just can't think of it either.


Anyway, yeah.....hopefully the new Democrats in office will change things. I can see MTAE hanging himself when the polls came in. lol

He wrote a book on the subject, but I can't remember his or the book's name.
Though I do remember Ed Byrne or Neil Delamere asking about the carbon footprint of the CIA torture flights.

What I was thinking of.

Auschwitz? Or are they going to make a new Auschwitz? :eek:

They very well might. :(

Yep.

That's a bit scary....


I'm a scary guy. ;)

Since when does disagreeing with another declare somebody is "not an American" or "an enemy of the people". You don't have no earthly idea of who I am or what I do. I assure you I'm very much Pro-American, very much a Patriot. I do still have the right to disagree with yes even you.
I'm forced to agree with you on that one. All too often people seem to think that their particular brand of patriotism is what makes one an American.

Fine, that's your choice but remember when you point fingers, you have 3 more pointing right back at yourself.

Have a nice Day. :)

That depends how many fingers you point with ;)
What I was thinking of.

Auschwitz? Or are they going to make a new Auschwitz? :eek:

Yep.

That's a bit scary....
Less going to and more have.

The terrorists did not force us to pass the patriot act, it due to our own fear.

I disagree that it's out of our own fear. There's a lot more to it than that. Remember the terrorists don't play by the same rules as the civilized world. Our authority figures are doing what they need to do to better fight against this virus we all know as terrorism.

Or the Parties desire for more money, power, and other....stuff. That too.

Who elected said party? We did.

The american people have lost the war on terrorism by falling into a state of terror. It's not as though we had a choice.

Since when does disagreeing with another declare somebody is "not an American" or "an enemy of the people". You don't have no earthly idea of who I am or what I do. I assure you I'm very much Pro-American, very much a Patriot. I do still have the right to disagree with yes even you.

Fine, that's your choice but remember when you point fingers, you have 3 more pointing right back at yourself.

Have a nice Day. :) The Republicans wanted power and feared they might lose after 9/11. they don't fear t3h eb1l muzlimzz, they made every other American fear them so they could get votes. I've said it once and I'll say it again, American politics is not about the people at all, it is about power to the Party. Sieg Republicans! Heil Democrats! War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength!

I disagree that it's out of our own fear. There's a lot more to it than that. Remember the terrorists don't play by the same rules as the civilized world. Our authority figures are doing what they need to do to better fight against this virus we all know as terrorism.

Or, rather, they're doing what they need to do to get votes.

The Party does not give one crap abotu the people, they only care for power and money.

Since when does disagreeing with another declare somebody is "not an American" or "an enemy of the people". You don't have no earthly idea of who I am or what I do. I assure you I'm very much Pro-American, very much a Patriot. I do still have the right to disagree with yes even you.

Fine, that's your choice but remember when you point fingers, you have 3 more pointing right back at yourself.

Have a nice Day. :)

In my eyes, anyone who supports the patriot act is against civil liberty. Therefore, you are against what this nation stands for, and what generations of my family have fought and died for. From General Patton (My Cousin), to Brigadier General Richard Craft, to Captain Meriwether Louis, to dozens in the civil war, the Revolution, Sergeant Vincent Sergeant, a true hero of World War One.


Countless others fought and bled for this country. I do not take kindly to those who are not willing to stand up when our freedom is being taken away.

Or, rather, they're doing what they need to do to get votes.

The Party does not give one crap abotu the people, they only care for power and money.

Darknovae, I officially love you. ;)

It's not as though we had a choice.


Yes, we did.

We had the choice to not live in fear. We had a choice to not elect Bush. We had a choice to kick him out and elect someone to veto the patriot act.

Darknovae, I officially love you. ;)

Peace and love, man. :fluffle:

Yes, we did.

We had the choice to not live in fear. We had a choice to not elect Bush. We had a choice to kick him out and elect someone to veto the patriot act.

No, we didn't. In 2004, during the elections, the Republican Party supported the Patriot Act and said it was keeping us all safer. It wasn't, it was just stripping away our civil liberties. They made it out to look like it was working simply because we hadn't had another attack in three years, though in 2001 it had been longer than three years since another attack. It was, as always, Reps vs. Dems, and the Dems, as always, failed to rig the elections. Therefore, the people had no choice at all.

I'm forced to agree with you on that one. All too often people seem to think that their particular brand of patriotism is what makes one an American.



That depends how many fingers you point with ;)

Less going to and more have.

:eek: Now this must be a first for you and I, when it comes to agreeing. I do realize that I started on NSG as pretty "extreme" per say, but I'm not here to make enemies, so I have decided it best to rethink my sometimes "extreme" posts, to more of a moderate level, however, some of my earlier posts were taken out of line due to either misinterpretations on other parties or mistyping/wording on my part. Since then, I do feel I'm getting better and being more careful. :)

I'm not that much of a bastard, as some of the good people on NSG may think of me. :D

I really am a Good Person which a fairly descent reputation against the people who know me personally. I do try to do the Right things. :)

Peace and love, man. :fluffle:


http://www.sawnoff.demon.co.uk/web1.gif


"You have born to kill on your helmet, yet a peace sign next to it! What is that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke!" --- Colonel

"I'm merely expressing the duality of man sir!"



....if you don't get the joke, its from the movie Full Metal Jacket.

I'm forced to agree with you on that one. All too often people seem to think that their particular brand of patriotism is what makes one an American. Too true.

That depends how many fingers you point with ;) ;)

Less going to and more have.:eek: It's Gitmo, isn't it?

http://www.sawnoff.demon.co.uk/web1.gif


"You have born to kill on your helmet, yet a peace sign next to it! What is that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke!" --- Colonel

"I'm merely expressing the duality of man sir!"



....if you don't get the joke, its from the movie Full Metal Jacket.

:p

No, we didn't. In 2004, during the elections, the Republican Party supported the Patriot Act and said it was keeping us all safer. It wasn't, it was just stripping away our civil liberties. They made it out to look like it was working simply because we hadn't had another attack in three years, though in 2001 it had been longer than three years since another attack.

So because the people swallow propaganda and don't share the same opinion as you they have no choice? The gov't never forced people to vote a certain way, the blame lies with the american people.

yup.
Can't fly while muslim.
Can't pray in public while muslim.
Can't have more than one cell phone while muslim.
What else???

You mean besides the fact that millions and millions of Muslims fly hassle free every year? You mean besides the fact that almost a billion Muslims pray 4x a day and have every day for thousands of years? I assjure you that in the US there are tens of thousands if not more Muslims that have more then one cell phone and have never been even remotely bothered. So yes, what else?

So because the people swallow propaganda and don't share the same opinion as you they have no choice? The gov't never forced people to vote a certain way, the blame lies with the american people.

Okay, some blame does lie with the American people. However, if you knew America's political climate, you would see why it's not entirely our fault.

:eek: Now this must be a first for you and I, when it comes to agreeing. I do realize that I started on NSG as pretty "extreme" per say, but I'm not here to make enemies, so I have decided it best to rethink my sometimes "extreme" posts, to more of a moderate level, however, some of my earlier posts were taken out of line due to either misinterpretations on other parties or mistyping/wording on my part. Since then, I do feel I'm getting better and being more careful. :)

I'm not that much of a bastard, as some of the good people on NSG may think of me. :D

I really am a Good Person which a fairly descent reputation against the people who know me personally. I do try to do the Right things. :)
I don't remember really. I never remember who I agree with and who I don't. It's good though, makes me actually think about what people post.
Too true.

;)
:fluffle:

:eek: It's Gitmo, isn't it?

Well the CIA allegedly has secret prison camps in countries with some lax/non-existent anti-torture laws where it tortures suspected terrorists it has kidnapped.

I don't remember really. I never remember who I agree with and who I don't. It's good though, makes me actually think about what people post.

:fluffle:



Well the CIA allegedly has secret prison camps in countries with some lax/non-existent anti-torture laws where it tortures suspected terrorists it has kidnapped.

Really? :eek:

one more question. Why does America only have two parties? That cant be true democracy, can it?

Really? :eek:

Unfortunately. Yes.

one more question. Why does America only have two parties? That cant be true democracy, can it?

We aren't a true democracy. But we do have more than two parties.

Green Party, Socialist Workers, Communists, Neo-Nazi, Prohibitionist, Libertarian, etc.


They just never get elected. :( (Except the Neo-Nazis....they actually have been elected before in some random mid-western town :mad: )

We aren't a true democracy. But we do have more than two parties.

Green Party, Socialist Workers, Communists, Neo-Nazi, Prohibitionist, Libertarian, etc.


They just never get elected. :( (Except the Neo-Nazis....they actually have been elected before in some random mid-western town :mad: )

Wow... that sucks...

Thats why Britain is so much better!! RULE BRITTANIA!! :p ;)

Wow... that sucks...

Thats why Britain is so much better!! RULE BRITTANIA!! :p ;)

As a Scotsman, I protest!


FREE SCOTLAND! ;)

We are at war. New York and the Pentagon got blown up, remember?
New York didn't get blown up... 2 of its buildings were knocked down. There are thousands, if not millions of buildings in New York...

As for the Pentagon, that was slightly dented, and most of it is underground anyway.
The Patriot Act is a reflection of that.
"First, they attacked us... Now, we attack your freedoms... then you're angry enough to attack them - it's a horrible circle, but a necessary step for a stronger America" was essentially what I got from the act's creation.
People don't like it, they say it is an open ended war, there is no clear nation to wage it agsint, etc.
Is that not actually true?

Plus it's not really a war, it's more the US kicking the shit out of a couple of countries and then running away when things start to get a bit ugly.
I don't like it either, and I'm sure neither does Bush. It was brought upon us against our will.
Sort of did exactly what the terrorists wanted you to, didn't you?

You say that maybe the UK's let its stiff upper lip crumble.

Actually taking away your own freedom is making yourself into the puppets of terrorists, no?

one more question. Why does America only have two parties? That cant be true democracy, can it?

America only has two parties because a) those parties are willing to share power between themselves, b) those parties make every effort to squash third parties by implying that voting for a third party is a wasted vote, and c) the american people by that load of horse puckey.

An election system that allowed only public funds would help to eliminate this disparity, because right now there is simply too much money in the propaganda machines. Also, the american people need to take some personal responsibility, get out and vote, and actually vote for the candidates they wish to see elected, rather than those they expect to win.

Last election, I voted for Libertarians.

New York didn't get blown up... 2 of its buildings were knocked down. There are thousands, if not millions of buildings in New York...

As for the Pentagon, that was slightly dented, and most of it is underground anyway.

"First, they attacked us... Now, we attack your freedoms... then you're angry enough to attack them - it's a horrible circle, but a necessary step for a stronger America" was essentially what I got from the act's creation.

Is that not actually true?

Plus it's not really a war, it's more the US kicking the shit out of a couple of countries and then running away when things start to get a bit ugly.

Sort of did exactly what the terrorists wanted you to, didn't you?

You say that maybe the UK's let its stiff upper lip crumble.

Actually taking away your own freedom is making yourself into the puppets of terrorists, no?

Well spoken.

As a Scotsman, I protest!


FREE SCOTLAND! ;)

Therefore:

FREE EAST ANGLIA!! :D

Green Party
Will never be elected, ever.
Socialist Workers, Communists
Were pretty much wiped out in McCarthyism and never really got back on their feet, no?
Neo-Nazi
Will never be elected anywhere but the arseholes of the Midwest.
Prohibitionist
What are these people about?

Never really heard of them myself.
Libertarian
May get some support, but not much.
etc.
If it's more 'etc.' than these parties, it'll get about 5 votes or something, no?
They just never get elected. :( (Except the Neo-Nazis....they actually have been elected before in some random mid-western town :mad: )
Gutted.

America only has two parties because a) those parties are willing to share power between themselves, b) those parties make every effort to squash third parties by implying that voting for a third party is a wasted vote, and c) the american people by that load of horse puckey.

An election system that allowed only public funds would help to eliminate this disparity, because right now there is simply too much money in the propaganda machines. Also, the american people need to take some personal responsibility, get out and vote, and actually vote for the candidates they wish to see elected, rather than those they expect to win.

Last election, I voted for Libertarians.

You've earned my respect. GO LIBERTARIANS!

Will never be elected, ever.

Were pretty much wiped out in McCarthyism and never really got back on their feet, no?

Will never be elected anywhere but the arseholes of the Midwest.

What are these people about?

Never really heard of them myself.

May get some support, but not much.

If it's more 'etc.' than these parties, it'll get about 5 votes or something, no?

Gutted.



Prohibitionists want alcohol to be outlawed. They are aptly named because they want another Prohibition.


And unfortunately, you are right. As much as I want to see the Socialist Workers, or especially the Libertarians get elected, it'll never happen. :(

Prohibitionists want alcohol to be outlawed. They are aptly named because they want another Prohibition.
I'd assume that they never actually looked in any great depth at what happened the first time, then.
And unfortunately, you are right. As much as I want to see the Socialist Workers, or especially the Libertarians get elected, it'll never happen. :(
Indeed, your two main parties are really the only ones with a hope, sadly.

Okay, some blame does lie with the American people. However, if you knew America's political climate, you would see why it's not entirely our fault.

I disagree, it's all our fault. We fail to hold anyone responsible, and accept "politics as usual". It is unacceptable to sit back and watch this happen.

I'd assume that they never actually looked in any great depth at what happened the first time, then.

Indeed, your two main parties are really the only ones with a hope, sadly.

Defeatist attitudes are what have lead to the current problems. Not voting for those candidates you agree with makes you a political whore.

Defeatist attitudes are what have lead to the current problems. Not voting for those candidates you agree with makes you a political whore.
I'm from the UK ;)

I'm from the UK ;)

Yay! someone sensible!

JK :p

I'm from the UK ;)

I love watching your political system in action on C-SPAN. The fact that, at the very least, your leader is willing to get up in parliment and go toe-to-toe in debate with his opposition is refreshing, and the fact that he doesn't rely on calling them cowards and whatnot doubly so.

Unfortunately, the UK was drawn into this same illegal war as we were.

Unfortunately, the UK was drawn into this same illegal war as we were.
I was one of the 3 million in London. I am truly gutted.

I disagree, it's all our fault. We fail to hold anyone responsible, and accept "politics as usual". It is unacceptable to sit back and watch this happen.

We hold the Republicans and Democrats responsible, but we are actually quite powerless. "Not voting for them" isn't an option, since there's always some idiots who will always vote for one of the two no matter what, and votes for third parties are indeed votes wasted, since Republicans rig elections and Democrats vote-whore.

I was one of the 3 million in London. I am truly gutted.

I'm not sure what this means. Please clarify.

We hold the Republicans and Democrats responsible, but we are actually quite powerless. "Not voting for them" isn't an option, since there's always some idiots who will always vote for one of the two no matter what, and votes for third parties are indeed votes wasted, since Republicans rig elections and Democrats vote-whore.

Then our democracy is not a democracy, it's a totalitarian state with the illusion of democracy, and therefore we should either flee to Canada wholesale, or stage a new American revolution.

Or, considering the fact that only sixty-some percent of the populous votes, and no matter what your political system the power rules only through the sufferance of the people, we get up off our duffs and demand accountability and elect whoever we damn well want.

I'm not sure what this means. Please clarify.
3 million people protested in London against the Iraq war, all on the same day, and I was one of them. There.

I am gutted that the war went ahead anyway.

3 million people protested in London against the Iraq war, all on the same day, and I was one of them. There.

I am gutted that the war went ahead anyway.

Gotcha. Thank you. The amount of news we get over here in the colonies is limited and filtered.

It's the policy of fear, and "us" vs. "them". When a herd gets excited and afraid they stampede.

I'm glad you protested. I hope you still are protesting.

Gotcha. Thank you. The amount of news we get over here in the colonies is limited and filtered.
Can you not pick up BBC News 24 / Euronews in the US?
It's the policy of fear, and "us" vs. "them". When a herd gets excited and afraid they stampede.
Indeed. I sometimes watch FOX or CNN to see what you get in the US in terms of news. It's not very much, and it's spun wildly.
I'm glad you protested. I hope you still are protesting.
Oh yes.

i remember seeing that protest on TV. biggest protest march in the UK ever, wasnt it?

i remember seeing that protest on TV. biggest protest march in the UK ever, wasnt it?
Correct. Although this is getting extremely off-topic.

Can you not pick up BBC News 24 / Euronews in the US?



Indeed. I sometimes watch FOX or CNN to see what you get in the US in terms of news. It's not very much, and it's spun wildly.



Oh yes.
The only BBC we get on my cable provider is BBC America, and some BBC news on public television. Not sure how much that resembles what you get over there.

5 companies own almost all the media in this country. It's why I demand that any responsible person seek out as much information on a topic before they form an opinion.

It is the quality of dissent that defines a free society.

Correct. Although this is getting extremely off-topic.

ahh who cares :) we've got our (or MY answer actually...) so we can ;)

Correct. Although this is getting extremely off-topic.

You are correct. The flow of conversation and debate leads us in organic directions. ;)

The most worrisome thing about the USA PATRIOT Act is that it is a broad blanket, rather than a series of smaller bills. There are aspects that could be considered acceptable to a free society, but they are intermixed with obvious totalitarian controls.

And terrorism is such a red herring. More people die in auto accidents in the US in one year than have died in terrorist acts since 1968. But no one talks of a war on the "Axles of Evil"

The only BBC we get on my cable provider is BBC America, and some BBC news on public television. Not sure how much that resembles what you get over there.They're rather different.

Can you not pick up BBC News 24 / Euronews in the US?

Indeed. I sometimes watch FOX or CNN to see what you get in the US in terms of news. It's not very much, and it's spun wildly.

-snip-

Yes we can get BBC News 24 in the states and other Intn'l news. I'll have to check exactly which BBC News we get. I know for sure we are able to get BBC America along with some BBC on PBS and USF Television but I'm pretty sure we or atleast I get others.

I just upgraded from extended basic (on Friday) which came to $53.07/mo after taxes to digital cable (both provided by Brighthouse) for $39.95/mo plus taxes and then I got a deal on HBO and Cinemax ($10/mo extra for 3 months) which gives me an additional 30 premium channels. I'll find out for sure later which BBC channels I get.

(So Happy for now getting digital cable with a DVR and premium channels for about the same price I was paying for extended basic. now I get more than 250 channels)

They're rather different.

I can imagine that they are. Part of the arbitrary filter of american media companies.

Then you have been brainwashed.

Really? Was 3,000 dead peiople in NY a figment of my imagination? Gee, maybe the 18 innocent parents in my church weren't slaughtered at work. Maybe 7 of them didn't have to jump from 100 stories.

Listen, losing your freedom does not mean security!

"Listen" Radical Islam wants to destroy America. They have declared war on us, taken the most serious military action against the US mainland ever, and are training to do more. This is not opinion, this is fact. In wartime some freedoms have to be abridged, set aside or reconsidered. I am hard put to remember any way my life was effected by the Patriot Act, except for laughing my ass off at the needledick in the library screaming about it and getting tasered.

Bush wants Power! By making us loose our freedom, they get more power. Thats what this is about! Open your eyes

Grow up. We are at war. When New York gets nuked by some religious fanatic terrorist you will be the first one blaming Bush for not doing anything preventative.

Really? Was 3,000 dead peiople in NY a figment of my imagination? Gee, maybe the 18 innocent parents in my church weren't slaughtered at work. Maybe 7 of them didn't have to jump from 100 stories.



"Listen" Radical Islam wants to destroy America. They have declared war on us, taken the most serious military action against the US mainland ever, and are training to do more. This is not opinion, this is fact. In wartime some freedoms have to be abridged, set aside or reconsidered. I am hard put to remember any way my life was effected by the Patriot Act, except for laughing my ass off at the needledick in the library screaming about it and getting tasered.



Grow up. We are at war. When New York gets nuked by some religious fanatic terrorist you will be the first one blaming Bush for not doing anything preventative.

There is no evidence, and evidence is what's important here, that any terrorists have access to nukes. Do you think that "Radical Islam" would be attacking us if we weren't showing a complete lack of respect for their holiest sites, by the stationing of troops in Mecca for instance, or the complete lack of respect for their lives? Haven't the deaths of half a million Iraqis paid the blood debt of the 3,000?

Really? Was 3,000 dead peiople in NY a figment of my imagination? Gee, maybe the 18 innocent parents in my church weren't slaughtered at work. Maybe 7 of them didn't have to jump from 100 stories.
You said "New York has been blown up" or something to that effect, which really suggests that absolutely everyone has died. This is pure hyperbole. And you know it.

You're supposedly a MENSA member, but are stooping to emotional arguements. You should know better.
"Listen" Radical Islam wants to destroy America.
That's right. Roll in fear! Go on! Gobble that propaganda! Mmm tastes so good, doesn't it?
They have declared war on us
They?

Radical Islam is an ideology. You can't destroy an ideology, and an ideology is not a group that can be fought by war.
taken the most serious military action against the US mainland ever
Which shows that you've had a pretty piss easy time of it, to be honest.
and are training to do more. This is not opinion, this is fact
Facts really need proof. "They are training to do more" cannot be proved at all.
In wartime some freedoms have to be abridged, set aside or reconsidered.
It's not a war. At all. A war suggests fighting a tangible enemy which has the power to strike back at you, and that both sides are always at risk.

What is happening now is that the US has created a civil war in Iraq and has made Afghanistan into even more of a shithole, and it's going to run away in a couple of years when even the general populace of Iraq and Afghanistan won't put up with it any more and strike back.
I am hard put to remember any way my life was effected by the Patriot Act
That's because you can't "effect" someone's life.

You can effect someone's affects, or affect something's effects. Can't do much else with those verbs.


As for the Patriot Act, of course it won't affect your life, because you choose to follow exactly the same rhetoric as the current government, and are hence not going to get into trouble anything to do with going against their line.
except for laughing my ass off at the needledick in the library screaming about it and getting tasered.
Hur-hur-hur!

Liberal got zapped!

Hur-hur-hur!
Grow up. We are at war. When New York gets nuked by some religious fanatic terrorist you will be the first one blaming Bush for not doing anything preventative.
No, I'll be the first one blaming him for inviting such an act by galivanting around the world creating more and more enemies.

That's if it happens, which it won't.

Really? Was 3,000 dead peiople in NY a figment of my imagination? Gee, maybe the 18 innocent parents in my church weren't slaughtered at work. Maybe 7 of them didn't have to jump from 100 stories.



"Listen" Radical Islam wants to destroy America. They have declared war on us, taken the most serious military action against the US mainland ever, and are training to do more. This is not opinion, this is fact. In wartime some freedoms have to be abridged, set aside or reconsidered. I am hard put to remember any way my life was effected by the Patriot Act, except for laughing my ass off at the needledick in the library screaming about it and getting tasered.



Grow up. We are at war. When New York gets nuked by some religious fanatic terrorist you will be the first one blaming Bush for not doing anything preventative.

I wrote a long explaination of why your are wrong, and I deleted it. It's no use talking to you. Thats all well and good, since you all are a small minority with no say. There are far many more people who believe as I do, as oppose to you, and that is exactly the way it should be.


Besides, I think Yootopia put it exactly the way I would anyhow.

Interesting. I think I get the regular BBC on Cable, but I'll check.

In my eyes, anyone who supports the patriot act is against civil liberty. Therefore, you are against what this nation stands for, and what generations of my family have fought and died for. From General Patton (My Cousin), to Brigadier General Richard Craft, to Captain Meriwether Louis, to dozens in the civil war, the Revolution, Sergeant Vincent Sergeant, a true hero of World War One.


Countless others fought and bled for this country. I do not take kindly to those who are not willing to stand up when our freedom is being taken away.

Are you assuming that I have no ancestry that have fought and died for America and the Freedoms that we all take for granted?

Are you assuming that I have no ancestry that have fought and died for America and the Freedoms that we all take for granted?

No man. I'm merely saying that by willingly giving them up for what your Government says is right (Which is never so), you aren't doing them justice. :)


Hell, in a year or so when I go into the Army, I want to believe I'm fighting so that yours, mine, and everyone elses freedoms remain as they are stated in the Constitution.

By the way, I see you're from Tampa, eh King Bodacious?


Me too! :)

No man. I'm merely saying that by willingly giving them up for what your Government says is right (Which is never so), you aren't doing them justice. :)


Hell, in a year or so when I go into the Army, I want to believe I'm fighting so that yours, mine, and everyone elses freedoms remain as they are stated in the Constitution.

When you join, as I did, you will have to take an oath, to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domesticWhy would that be included unless it was something to be concerned about.

When you join, as I did, you will have to take an oath, to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domesticWhy would that be included unless it was something to be concerned about.

Exactly. You are expected to defend from enemies of the Constitution.

There is no evidence, and evidence is what's important here, that any terrorists have access to nukes.

I'm not willing to wait for evidence sufficient to the satisfaction of every pacifist coward in america.

Do you think that "Radical Islam" would be attacking us if we weren't showing a complete lack of respect for their holiest sites, by the stationing of troops in Mecca for instance, or the complete lack of respect for their lives?

Yes, I do think they would be attacking us anyway. If the demand wasn't Mecca it would be Israel, it is wasn't that it would be Islamic law in Eorupe, it never ends with religios fanatics and bullies. Religious nuts who can't tolerate others are simply power fascists.

Hmmm...who was the last aggressive fascist who wanted to wipe out the Jews? Hmmm...

Haven't the deaths of half a million Iraqis paid the blood debt of the 3,000?

No. They aren't related. The US doesn't pay "blood debts", that is some neanderthal Arab/Islamic custom. The Iraqis are largely killing each other anyway. Maybe we shgould just exit and leave behind a million hand greanades the Sunnis and Shiites will kill each other off. That;s their culture, killing.

I'm not willing to wait for evidence sufficient to the satisfaction of every pacifist coward in america.



Yes, I do think they would be attacking us anyway. If the demand wasn't Mecca it would be Israel, it is wasn't that it would be Islamic law in Eorupe, it never ends with religios fanatics and bullies. Religious nuts who can't tolerate others are simply power fascists.

Hmmm...who was the last aggressive fascist who wanted to wipe out the Jews? Hmmm...



No. They aren't related. The US doesn't pay "blood debts", that is some neanderthal Arab/Islamic custom. The Iraqis are largely killing each other anyway. Maybe we shgould just exit and leave behind a million hand greanades the Sunnis and Shiites will kill each other off. That;s their culture, killing.

I'm not savvy enough to divide the quotes I respond to, please forgive me.

I'm no pacifist coward, I just haven't seen enough evidence to justify war, especially in Iraq. Afghanistan had the guys involved, there I saw at least some justification.

Seperate Jews from Israelis. Jews are a religious people, Israelis are a political people. The establishment of the state of Israel left millions who had been living there homeless, and the Israelis have been less than forthcoming in the attempts to reconcile that.

Without the foriegn agressor argument the extremists would find less of a foothold.

Islam is no more a warlike philosophy than any other. To quote Mohammed "the greatest Jihad is the one inside ourselves"

You said "New York has been blown up" or something to that effect, which really suggests that absolutely everyone has died. This is pure hyperbole. And you know it.

Close enough for me. I suppose London wasn't blown up during WWII either.

You're supposedly a MENSA member, but are stooping to emotional arguements. You should know better.

It's a free country.

That's right. Roll in fear! Go on! Gobble that propaganda! Mmm tastes so good, doesn't it?

Not fear. Simple reality. People are ignorant as to what radical islamic leaders are preaching. And it isn't since Afghanistan or Iraq, it goes back to Bin Laden's declaration of war in 1996 and attacks agaisnt our ships and embassies. Hell, it goes back to the preaching of Muhammad, for that matter.

Radical Islam is an ideology. You can't destroy an ideology, and an ideology is not a group that can be fought by war.

Well, when it resorts to violence it can only be met by violence.

Which shows that you've had a pretty piss easy time of it, to be honest.

Perhaps we have better survival instincts than Neville Chamberlain and Maginot.

Facts really need proof. "They are training to do more" cannot be proved at all.

Don't believe it. Your local shoe bomber looked like a genius who figured the chemistry out himself.

It's not a war. At all. A war suggests fighting a tangible enemy which has the power to strike back at you, and that both sides are always at risk.

Semantics. It is a new war. and the US is at risk, it has been attacked. Just because it isn't some set piece WWII battleground doesn't mean we should sit back and wait to be slaughtered like my neighbors were at their desks in New York. Oh, wait, that was because somebody went to Mecca? My bad, you're right.

What is happening now is that the US has created a civil war in Iraq

Sunnis and shiites have been fighting since 650 AD. The US removed a dangerous maniac who was running Iraq by throwing dissidents inot woodchippers. But I guess you prefer that to the chance for a free democracy Iraq has now.

and has made Afghanistan into even more of a shithole,

Afghanistan was being run by a bunch of medieval neanderthal religious fanatics. Unless you like group rape as a payment for adultery, I suppose that was just fine by you. Now, like Iraq, they have a chance at a free democracy.

No, I'll be the first one blaming him for inviting such an act by galivanting around the world creating more and more enemies.

The enemies came to New York. Now they don't have a safe base in Afghanistan to train more mass murderers, and the world is rid of a certifiable lunatic in Saddam. With the threat of ballistic missiles and WMDs the free world can't ignore lunatic rogue regimes, even if liberal handwringers aren't up to the task.

Islam is no more a warlike philosophy than any other. To quote Mohammed "the greatest Jihad is the one inside ourselves"

To quote Muhammad:

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Close enough for me. I suppose London wasn't blown up during WWII either.



It's a free country.



Not fear. Simple reality. People are ignorant as to what radical islamic leaders are preaching. And it isn't since Afghanistan or Iraq, it goes back to Bin Laden's declaration of war in 1996 and attacks agaisnt our ships and embassies. Hell, it goes back to the preaching of Muhammad, for that matter.



Well, when it resorts to violence it can only be met by violence.



Perhaps we have better survival instincts than Neville Chamberlain and Maginot.



Don't believe it. Your local shoe bomber looked like a genius who figured the chemistry out himself.



Semantics. It is a new war. and the US is at risk, it has been attacked. Just because it isn't some set piece WWII battleground doesn't mean we should sit back and wait to be slaughtered like my neighbors were at their desks in New York. Oh, wait, that was because somebody went to Mecca? My bad, you're right.



Sunnis and shiites have been fighting since 650 AD. The US removed a dangerous maniac who was running Iraq by throwing dissidents inot woodchippers. But I guess you prefer that to the chance for a free democracy Iraq has now.



Afghanistan was being run by a bunch of medieval neanderthal religious fanatics. Unless you like group rape as a payment for adultery, I suppose that was just fine by you. Now, like Iraq, they have a chance at a free democracy.



The enemies came to New York. Now they don't have a safe base in Afghanistan to train more mass murderers, and the world is rid of a certifiable lunatic in Saddam. With the threat of ballistic missiles and WMDs the free world can't ignore lunatic rogue regimes, even if liberal handwringers aren't up to the task.

We helped Saddam. We supported him when he warred with Iran, we told him, prior to his invasion of Kuwait, that the US had no opinion of an Arab-Arab war.

We supported those in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Soviets. We trained those who train the mass murderers.

You can't have it both ways. If we are going to fight "rogue regimes" then we should stop creating them.

To quote Muhammad:

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Genesis 34:25
Now it came about on the third day, when they were in pain, that two of Jacob's sons, [Gen 49:5-7] Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, each took his sword and came upon the city unawares, and killed every male.

Numbers 21:35
So [Deut 3:3, 4] they killed him and his sons and all his people, until there was no remnant left him; and they possessed his land.

Numbers 35:27
and the blood avenger finds him outside the border of his city of refuge, and the blood avenger kills the manslayer, he will not be guilty of blood

No more warlike than any other.

You can't have it both ways. If we are going to fight "rogue regimes" then we should stop creating them.


The past can't freeze your current options or blind your eyes to new dangers. I could care lress what the CIA did 30 or 50 years ago. I care now about stopping religious lunatics from committing mass murder. The Taliban was based on religion. Saddam was based on crazy. Neither was "created" by the US. We only jumped in to help Iraq when it was clear the Iranina crazies, who were blowing up oil tankers, were about to roll over Iraq and be in a position to create even more havoc.

Our actual "support" for Iraq was minor. If we had militarily supported them Iran would have been a smoking ruin.

Genesis 34:25
Now it came about on the third day, when they were in pain, that two of Jacob's sons, [Gen 49:5-7] Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, each took his sword and came upon the city unawares, and killed every male.

Numbers 21:35
So [Deut 3:3, 4] they killed him and his sons and all his people, until there was no remnant left him; and they possessed his land.

Numbers 35:27
and the blood avenger finds him outside the border of his city of refuge, and the blood avenger kills the manslayer, he will not be guilty of blood

No more warlike than any other.

Oh please, those quotes aren't instructions from Jesus they are an Old Testament recounting of history. Find me a quote where Jesus says to kill non-Christians the way Muhammad constantly instructs Muslims they must kill infidels.

Oh please, those quotes aren't instructions from Jesus they are an Old Testament recounting of history. Find me a quote where Jesus says to kill non-Christians the way Muhammad constantly instructs Muslims they must kill infidels.

Jesus would be a commie pacifist in your eyes, if he were alive today.

Oh please, those quotes aren't instructions from Jesus they are an Old Testament recounting of history. Find me a quote where Jesus says to kill non-Christians the way Muhammad constantly instructs Muslims they must kill infidels.

And that changes the fact that its in the bible? which is a christian document?


His point still stands, the OT instructs Jews to kill people of other religions, yet you never see people painting Jews as violent, baby killing, Neanderthals. The way you
paint muslims.

The past can't freeze your current options or blind your eyes to new dangers. I could care lress what the CIA did 30 or 50 years ago. I care now about stopping religious lunatics from committing mass murder. The Taliban was based on religion. Saddam was based on crazy. Neither was "created" by the US. We only jumped in to help Iraq when it was clear the Iranina crazies, who were blowing up oil tankers, were about to roll over Iraq and be in a position to create even more havoc.

Our actual "support" for Iraq was minor. If we had militarily supported them Iran would have been a smoking ruin.

Sorry, my friend but your facts are in error. Both Iran and Iraq were blowing up oil tankers. And since what the CIA did 30 or 50 laid the groundwork for the current problem, perhaps you should consider how the current execution of the "war on terror" will affect the future situation.

Oh please, those quotes aren't instructions from Jesus they are an Old Testament recounting of history. Find me a quote where Jesus says to kill non-Christians the way Muhammad constantly instructs Muslims they must kill infidels.

Jesus stated that we should love our neighbors and turn the other cheek, a point of view missing from your argument.

Close enough for me. I suppose London wasn't blown up during WWII either.


Yes, but it had a hell of a lot more explosives land on it than New York. 13,000 tons of high explosive is a bit more than 3 aeroplanes. when London was bombed, we stood firm. you get three planes crash into a couple of buildings, and you're all shit scared. Except Wanderjar :p


Perhaps we have better survival instincts than Neville Chamberlain and Maginot.


Hey! Chamberlain did everything he could to stop another world war. Maginot was an idiot, il give you that. what kind of defences was he building?? anyway, it was not Chamberlain's fault that there was a Second World War.



and the world is rid of a certifiable lunatic in Saddam.

Yes, but Iraq was doing nothing to anybody before the US strolled in. It was a lot safer to the average civilian. All you're doing now in iraq and afghanistan, is setting up colonies. the governments are only puppets.

The MAIN reason for going into Iraq? :
"oh look, oils running out"
"oh well lets go to some country and get it"
"but we cant just do that"
"well, lets say they have WMDs"

And that changes the fact that its in the bible? which is a christian document?

Of course it does ! We are talking about directives, words to live by from a deity, as opposed to a recounting of history.

His point still stands, the OT instructs Jews to kill people of other religions,

Citation, please.

yet you never see people painting Jews as violent, baby killing, Neanderthals. The way you paint muslims.

where did I say anything about baby killing?

Jesus stated that we should love our neighbors and turn the other cheek, a point of view missing from your argument.

My family belongs to a church, but personally I'm an atheist, so don't look for quotes from me from a god.

But I do admire Zeus for being ripped. :-)

Of course it does ! We are talking about directives, words to live by from a deity, as opposed to a recounting of history.



Citation, please.



where did I say anything about baby killing?

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV. 1
bullet "...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV. 1

Citation, please.

13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, (13:1-5)
If someone teaches a new and different religious belief with signs and wonders, then that person must be put to death.
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


The Bible.

My family belongs to a church, but personally I'm an atheist, so don't look for quotes from me from a god.

But I do admire Zeus for being ripped. :-)

I don't know if I'm an atheist, as I see God in string theory, but I refuse religion of any sort. ;)

I wouldn't mind re-establishing a church of Thor.

Yes, but it had a hell of a lot more explosives land on it than New York. 13,000 tons of high explosive is a bit more than 3 aeroplanes. when London was bombed, we stood firm. you get three planes crash into a couple of buildings, and you're all shit scared. Except Wanderjar :p

Nope, not scared.

Yes, but Iraq was doing nothing to anybody before the US strolled in. It was a lot safer to the average civilian. All you're doing now in iraq and afghanistan, is setting up colonies. the governments are only puppets.

Iraq had thrown out UN WMD inspectors and ignored 19 UN resolutions. And fired hundreds of missiles at peacekeeping planes.

The MAIN reason for going into Iraq? :
"oh look, oils running out"
"oh well lets go to some country and get it"
"but we cant just do that"
"well, lets say they have WMDs"

lol

My family belongs to a church, but personally I'm an atheist, so don't look for quotes from me from a god.

But I do admire Zeus for being ripped. :-)

Wait. You agree with the policy of war by this administration but you are not blinded by religion? Weird.

Iraq had thrown out UN WMD inspectors and ignored 19 UN resolutions. And fired hundreds of missiles at peacekeeping planes.

but he wasnt threatening your way of life was he?

Nope, not scared.



Iraq had thrown out UN WMD inspectors and ignored 19 UN resolutions. And fired hundreds of missiles at peacekeeping planes.



lol

I wasn't scared of terrorism beforehand. As I have stated repeatedly, cars are more dangerous, and no one is calling for a ban or war on them.

And we still have not found WMDs in Iraq, or any of the other original justifications for the war.

Wait. You agree with the policy of war by this administration but you are not blinded by religion? Weird.

Blind patriotism is a religion.

To quote Muhammad:

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
out of context and nit-picked. Here's the quote in its entirety:

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
the bold is the part which you strategically omitted to tell a half-truth.

This passage was first recited when the Pegan Meccans declared war on the muslims, the message is to fight them until they surrender and co-exist peacefully with the muslims

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

again referring specifically to the Meccans.

http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

Psst, Goverments lie thay lie because the moment thay tell the truth is the moment thay will be gutting there power base as it takes time for it to sink into the heads of the poor propagandized saps.

In 2004 there was laws in many states that poped up that made it harder for folks to register to vote not all of these laws made it in but more then half did this at a time when registrys where from my understanding much higher then thay had been in ages, the Political system is hijaked the main media is hijaked.

I am not sure if this law was passed as i havent yet gotten around to looking it up but sevral years ago a heard that there was a law that set it so that the dems and repubs needed only 2000 signatures to get on ballets while other third partys need over 50000 singatures to get on the ballet if i manage to remeber where i got this stuff ill add a link but till then i dont expect anyone to just take my word for it, thank you for your time good day.

out of context and nit-picked. Here's the quote in its entirety:

Quote:
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

the bold is the part which you strategically omitted to tell a half-truth.

Oh, so if we become Muslim we won't be killed. Thanks for making my point for me.

It is an instinct to want to humanize evil, to make it seem less threatening. This is done to the point of nausea by liberals and pacifists. Do you all forget 9-11?

Oh, so if we become Muslim we won't be killed. Thanks for making my point for me.

You totally misquoted me, thanks for proving my point to me.

Are you Pagan? Do you live in Mecca?

douse it help you sleep at night to know you can classify the world so easly into groups of good and evil?

the world is both alot simpler then that and alot more complex.

douse it help you sleep at night to know you can classify the world so easly into groups of good and evil?


When it comes to cowardly mass murder of civilians by religious fanatics, that is exactly how simple it is.

It amazes me how people de facto condone 9-11 by trying to say these lunatic mass murdering terrorists had some sort of justification. That is condoning and encouraging future attacks.

And it also amazes me that many of our historical allies are such cowards.

Maybe next time it won't be the US. Maybe we'll tighten up our borders so much that they'll look for easier targets. Somewhere they have millions of Muslims already.

Don't think these lunatics have some logical pattern. Maybe they'll nuke Paris because France sent a Crusade Legion in 1071 or something. Or England over some 100 year old grievance in Pakistan.

You can bet then that America won't be telling Europe they had it coming and not to make any more enemies.

Psst, Goverments lie thay lie because the moment thay tell the truth is the moment thay will be gutting there power base as it takes time for it to sink into the heads of the poor propagandized saps.

In 2004 there was laws in many states that poped up that made it harder for folks to register to vote not all of these laws made it in but more then half did this at a time when registrys where from my understanding much higher then thay had been in ages, the Political system is hijaked the main media is hijaked.

I am not sure if this law was passed as i havent yet gotten around to looking it up but sevral years ago a heard that there was a law that set it so that the dems and repubs needed only 2000 signatures to get on ballets while other third partys need over 50000 singatures to get on the ballet if i manage to remeber where i got this stuff ill add a link but till then i dont expect anyone to just take my word for it, thank you for your time good day.

I suspect I'm in the vast majority when I say I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

taken the most serious military action against the US mainland ever,

Oh, so I'm just imagining the time when the British wiped Washington D.C. off the map?

this should be real easy to comprehend Goverment lies main media outlets are the arms of the goverment, simple enough for you?




So you are saying that three thousand dead americans justifies the mass murder of tens of thosands of civilians?

It amazes me how people de facto condone 9-11 by trying to say these lunatic mass murdering terrorists had some sort of justification. That is condoning and encouraging future attacks.

Let me ask you.... if an eight year old starts harassing an older kid, and the older kid then turns around and hits the eight-year-old, would you be "encouraging future attacks" if you both disciplined the older kid and pointed out that the eight-year-old had it coming to them? That's what these people you're so amazed at are doing.

And it also amazes me that many of our historical allies are such cowards.

Three words: World War One.
Another three words: World War Two.

If you expect the rest of the world to be at your beck and call when you want to go to war, then you should do likewise.

Maybe next time it won't be the US. Maybe we'll tighten up our borders so much that they'll look for easier targets. Somewhere they have millions of Muslims already.

Or maybe, since the rest of the world don't display such arrogance on an international level as the US, we're not as big a target.

Don't think these lunatics have some logical pattern. Maybe they'll nuke Paris because France sent a Crusade Legion in 1071 or something. Or England over some 100 year old grievance in Pakistan.

So far they have attacked the US, and their allies. Seems logical to me. And FYI, England has already been attacked.

Never forget 9/11. Never forgive those who wish to kill our countrymen. Never forget those who died that fateful day.

There are somethings that must be done against terrorists. There are some measures that must be taken to stop them. But if we let them fundamentally change who we are through terror-if they make us become totitilarian and abusive of the rights that we claim to cherish, than our enemies have won.

Never forget 9/11. Never forgive those who wish to kill our countrymen. Never forget those who died that fateful day.

There are somethings that must be done against terrorists. There are some measures that must be taken to stop them. But if we let them fundamentally change who we are through terror-if they make us become totitilarian and abusive of the rights that we claim to cherish, than our enemies have won.

You win the thread.

It is an instinct to want to humanize evil, to make it seem less threatening. This is done to the point of nausea by liberals and pacifists. Do you all forget 9-11?

How dare you suggest that anyone who holds a different opinon than you has "forgotten 9/11"? And how dare you even imply that anyone who disagrees with you is helping or supporting terrorists? Who the hell do you think you are? As has been pointed out on this thread, this is a free country. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to care that you don't like it. Not everyone who doesn't agree with you is a traitor or a coward. Not everyone who doesn't necessarily want to kill all Arabs is a terrorist-loving traitor. And while you have every right to disagree with me or anyone else, you have no right to be abusive simply because your ego can't entertain the thought that someone dare hold a different opinion. And quite frankly, in my opinion -- which is not any less vaild than yours despite what you think -- anyone who supports the degredation of our Constitution, for any reason, is a trator.

nothing like that. the law itself just gives the president or congress the right to investigate threats deemed plausible. read the one percent docterine that should explain some of what the US' plans are. but its not like its infringing on freedoms, unless you're doing something wrong the governments not even going to look at you. regardless of what people say this is still america, and that whole freedom thing and that little thing called a constitution are still in effect.

[QUOTE=Maineiacs;12000809]How dare you suggest that anyone who holds a different opinon than you has "forgotten 9/11"? And how dare you even imply that anyone who disagrees with you is helping or supporting terrorists?

Thanks for that nostalgic trip. i t was like my senior prom all aver again !!!



Who the hell do you think you are? As has been pointed out on this thread, this is a free country. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to care that you don't like it.

TOTALLY happy with those rules given the way things are proceeding,


Not everyone who doesn't agree with you is a traitor or a coward. Not everyone who doesn't necessarily want to kill all Arabs is a terrorist-loving traitor. And while you have every right to disagree with me or anyone else, you have no right to be abusive simply because your ego can't entertain the thought that someone dare hold a different opinion.

er.....okay.

And quite frankly, in my opinion -- which is not any less vaild than yours despite what you think -- anyone who supports the degredation of our Constitution, for any reason, is a trator.

I can understand that.

nothing like that. the law itself just gives the president or congress the right to investigate threats deemed plausible. read the one percent docterine that should explain some of what the US' plans are. but its not like its infringing on freedoms, unless you're doing something wrong the governments not even going to look at you. regardless of what people say this is still america, and that whole freedom thing and that little thing called a constitution are still in effect.That whole freedom thing? Are you kidding me? I get carded if I want to drink and I can't drink in public here. And I haven't even tried to go skinny dipping on a public beach, but I can't imagine I'd get away with that either, even if I wanted to.

nothing like that. the law itself just gives the president or congress the right to investigate threats deemed plausible. read the one percent docterine that should explain some of what the US' plans are. but its not like its infringing on freedoms, unless you're doing something wrong the governments not even going to look at you. regardless of what people say this is still america, and that whole freedom thing and that little thing called a constitution are still in effect.

Could I get carded for buying a copy of the Communist Manifesto?

The point isn't that you can be accused of terrorist sympathies if you've "done something wrong". The point is you can be accused if the government says you have terrorist sympathies. And they don't even need to prove it. There is nothing to stop Shrub and Co. from abitrarliy declaring anyone a terrorist. Yes, yes... "Why haven't they done so yet?" First of all, since they don't need to present evidence, how do you know it hasn't happened yet, and second those of you who support this measure, although they would have absolutely no reason to come look for you, what if they did come look for you? What if your name happened to be the same as an American al-Qaeda sympathizer on their watch list? Would you still support torture and no habeas corpus if it were you they arrested? Would it still not matter that they were arresting potentially innocent people because "it is better that 100 innocent men die than that 1 guilty man go free" if you are one of the 100? And don't bother to point out that it may be unlikely. It may very well be, but are you truly willing to risk your own freedom just to have the pleasure of watching someone deprived of theirs?

I suppose some people haven't realized that the 9/11 attacks has forced America to take a stronger stand against terrorism. It would be GREAT to live in eternal peace. Peace Worldwide. The terrorists had forced us to rethink some important and very much controversial issues.

When America was struck on 9/11, It was more of an act against the American People than our government. It was an attack on our Freedoms and our way of Life. When they murdered more than 3000 innocent civilians, they stirred up a Hornets Nest.

I fully support the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act.

It's terribly sad that you're willing to live in such deep fear. By allowing what happened that day to so taint you is a sick, SICK thing. You are allowing them to win by doing exactly what they want you to do. You actually think that allowing your government to rip away the most basic freedom of a person for saying a couple of watch words in a phone call, or purchasing a book, or associating with certain people, etc. that you somehow remain free. This is the single most diluded, unenlightened, wantonly ignorant point of view I've ever had the displeasure of knowing was held by someone living in the same country I live in. I am both furiously angry with, and titanically sad for you...

Hey, post number 1000!!

Alright, second try.

Pyotr is actually wrong in this event. The Patriot Act allows the government to focus most of the power in the Executive Branch, through useage of

A: Illegal Wire Taps, Pen-Registers, and "Sneak and Peek" operations done by the police, without Court Warrants

B: Allows Government to arbitrarily state who is a terrorist. If branded a terrorist, you will be aprehended, and the right of habeus Corpus will no longer apply to you. For those who do not know what this is, it literally means "Produce the Body", or basically bring the accused before a judge. No longer neccessary though. Instead, you won't even be told what you are being accused of "Due to the possibility of terrorist organizations learning of American Operations", and other BS claims.

C: The Government has free ability to view your medical, financial, and library records, as well as approach book sellers and force them to tell what you have purchased lately.


D: In Cooperation with the Military Commissions Act, the Government can use torture to extract information from Supposed Terrorists. This can also be used on "Domestic peoples" or basically any of us. It is a frightening prospect, and seems like something out of a George Orwell novel, but its real.



Basically, the Government wants to eliminate the Judicial Branch from the equasion, and focus all power on Warlord Bush.


+1

That is a fairly accurate summarization. Whether we have the Dems or the Repubs, we're pretty much screwed. If only third parties were actually allowed to exercise their constitutional rights...

That whole freedom thing? Are you kidding me? I get carded if I want to drink and I can't drink in public here. And I haven't even tried to go skinny dipping on a public beach, but I can't imagine I'd get away with that either, even if I wanted to.

Florida has some nude beaches. As for drinking, they're trying to keep it out of the hands of minors. I don't get ID'd anymore, well unless I forget my wallet at home (Very Rare do I forget it) then the bastards ID me. Better known as Murphy's Law. :D

I really don't think people have a problem with the Patriot Act itself. I think it goes deeper than that. I think the real problem is that the people who are voicing against it so strongly has a problem with Authority figures and that they'd be happy if we would just abolish all of the authority figures. Then we'd truly be Free. :rolleyes:

Ignorance is Strength!

Really it should be: Ignorance is Truth! ;)

I saw this pretty funny clip from some comedian-news show where this guy showed how the patriot act, in a way, basically removes all articles of the Bill of Rights, except for one, which I don't actually remember but get the feeling that without the others, its pretty useless.

How dare you suggest that anyone who holds a different opinon than you has "forgotten 9/11"? And how dare you even imply that anyone who disagrees with you is helping or supporting terrorists? Who the hell do you think you are? As has been pointed out on this thread, this is a free country. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to care that you don't like it. Not everyone who doesn't agree with you is a traitor or a coward. Not everyone who doesn't necessarily want to kill all Arabs is a terrorist-loving traitor. And while you have every right to disagree with me or anyone else, you have no right to be abusive simply because your ego can't entertain the thought that someone dare hold a different opinion. And quite frankly, in my opinion -- which is not any less vaild than yours despite what you think -- anyone who supports the degredation of our Constitution, for any reason, is a trator.

Sounds like you are for free speech, except mine.

It's terribly sad that you're willing to live in such deep fear. By allowing what happened that day to so taint you is a sick, SICK thing. You are allowing them to win by doing exactly what they want you to do. You actually think that allowing your government to rip away the most basic freedom of a person for saying a couple of watch words in a phone call, or purchasing a book, or associating with certain people, etc. that you somehow remain free. This is the single most diluded, unenlightened, wantonly ignorant point of view I've ever had the displeasure of knowing was held by someone living in the same country I live in. I am both furiously angry with, and titanically sad for you...

There is a war on knucklehead. Get with the program. There are clandestine mass murderers targetting our civilians. This isn't heory -- it happened on 9-11. Clandestine surveillance is needed to break up their plots. I'm a libertarian, but my concern about freedoms does not extend to fretting over whether some radical islamic fanatic is free to rent a crop duster without government surveillance.

If they want to check out my life, fine, as long as they don't publicize my web porn proclivities. :-)

Florida has some nude beaches.Not talking about nude beaches. That's like having "Freedom of Speach" zones.
As for drinking, they're trying to keep it out of the hands of minors. And why should anyone try to keep it out of the hands of people that are over 18?

Are you saying that even after 9/11, that we should just let people come go freely onto the planes?

What are the airport security screenings anyways? (I don't fly due to the fact that I have a fulltime local job here in Florida and instead of taking my vacation I just have my boss cut me a vacation check and I work through my vacation, however, for my jobs 6 yr anniversary this coming year I do intend on taking a vacation.)

Metal Detectors, cameras, baggage screening, random searches, to take shoes off, etc... Oh and the Air Marshalls....What freedoms are being violated. Perhaps, your rights to have the government protect the public? Please specify........


dont waste your breath on this one- Flying isnt a right anyway.
Its a privilege.

dont waste your breath on this one- Flying isnt a right anyway.
Its a privilege.Free movement is a right, actually.

You can bet then that America won't be telling Europe they had it coming and not to make any more enemies.

Nope- its certain we'd be sending literally tons of assistance immediately.

Free movement is a right, actually.

But you are well aware that flying on an airplane is NOT, right?

Nope- its certain we'd be sending literally tons of assistance immediately.

bullshit :rolleyes:

The american people might, but the government sure wont. Even to Britain

But you are well aware that flying on an airplane is NOT, right?Depends whether there are genuine grievances that allow for an infringement of your freedom of travel. It's like not paying your bus fare is a genuine reason for restricting you from travelling by bus.

bullshit :rolleyes:

The american people might, but the government sure wont. Even to Britain

Bullshit. We had more than a few professionals and specialists on the scene after the July bombings in England. We jump to help with man-made as well as natural disasters. Government and citizens.

Especially Britain.

Depends whether there are genuine grievances that allow for an infringement of your freedom of travel. It's like not paying your bus fare is a genuine reason for restricting you from travelling by bus.

No one is being scrutinized without reason. The airlines want your money-they want you to fly.

They dont want dangerous substances,weapons or bad behavior on their planes.

Bullshit. We had more than a few professionals and specialists on the scene after the July bombings in England. We jump to help with man-made as well as natural disasters. Government and citizens.

Especially Britain.

they wernt sent by the government were they?

Close enough for me. I suppose London wasn't blown up during WWII either.
Hmm yes. 3000 out of 18.7ish million and two smashed up buildings really compares adequately to over 30,000 out of about 6 million (I'm taking conscription and children being moved into the country into account) and vast tracts of the city being utterly flattened.

You are so very right. I truly have to bow to your astonishing powers of debate.
It's a free country.
Got any more piss-poor arguments?
Not fear. Simple reality.
No, you're shitting yourself to the words of FOX, let's just be honest.
People are ignorant as to what radical islamic leaders are preaching. And it isn't since Afghanistan or Iraq, it goes back to Bin Laden's declaration of war in 1996 and attacks agaisnt our ships and embassies. Hell, it goes back to the preaching of Muhammad, for that matter.
This has already been utterly refuted, I can't really be arsed to argue this again.
Well, when it resorts to violence it can only be met by violence.
Let's counter stupidity with more stupidity!

Genius!
Perhaps we have better survival instincts than Neville Chamberlain and Maginot.
Or maybe the sheer geography of it all makes it extremely difficult to attack you, perhaps?
Don't believe it. Your local shoe bomber looked like a genius who figured the chemistry out himself.
Sorry, I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
Semantics. It is a new war. and the US is at risk, it has been attacked. Just because it isn't some set piece WWII battleground doesn't mean we should sit back and wait to be slaughtered like my neighbors were at their desks in New York. Oh, wait, that was because somebody went to Mecca? My bad, you're right.
Pardon?

You're suggesting that teh ebil Muslims (!11!) can honestly pose a risk to the whole of the US?

Don't be bloody ridiculous.
Sunnis and shiites have been fighting since 650 AD. The US removed a dangerous maniac who was running Iraq by throwing dissidents inot woodchippers. But I guess you prefer that to the chance for a free democracy Iraq has now.
Damn right I do. Without Saddam, there's a massive power vacuum, and all of the ethnic tensions are flaring up again, causing many more deaths than Saddam did, plus it's wrecking the country, just when Saddam was fixing it up again. Nice one there.
Afghanistan was being run by a bunch of medieval neanderthal religious fanatics. Unless you like group rape as a payment for adultery, I suppose that was just fine by you. Now, like Iraq, they have a chance at a free democracy.
Afghanistan was indeed an uncontrollable shithole. And it still is to this day. The Taliban are still in control in the areas to the south, and the government doesn't really do... well... anything. At all.

It's a complete sham, let's be honest. Something to fob off doubters in the Republican party, and swing the vote a little.

Afghanistan has always been, essentially, a place where the banditry of the middle-to-far East have banded together to do some looting and grow a bit of opium.

Its borders are more "if you cross this line, you bastard Afghanis, we will shoot you" markers than anything else. And I'm sure that you know, in your heart of hearts, that free'um and 'mocracy won't solve a bloody thing there.
The enemies came to New York. Now they don't have a safe base in Afghanistan to train more mass murderers, and the world is rid of a certifiable lunatic in Saddam.
Excuse me?

Hell province is utterly unrulable. What's to say that they can't train there?

And Saddam was a nutter, but also a useful nutter because of the fact that his regime kept everyone in Iraq in line. What do we get now that he's gone?

"14 people have died in a suicide bombing in Baghdad". Over. And over. Again.
With the threat of ballistic missiles and WMDs the free world can't ignore lunatic rogue regimes, even if liberal handwringers aren't up to the task.
*sighs*

Hell province is utterly unrulable.

and what happens? the yanks give it to us. Nice one Tony Bliar.

...Intentional spelling mistake there :p

Sounds like you are for free speech, except mine.

How dare you suggest that anyone who holds a different opinon than you has "forgotten 9/11"? And how dare you even imply that anyone who disagrees with you is helping or supporting terrorists? Who the hell do you think you are? As has been pointed out on this thread, this is a free country. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to care that you don't like it. Not everyone who doesn't agree with you is a traitor or a coward. Not everyone who doesn't necessarily want to kill all Arabs is a terrorist-loving traitor. And while you have every right to disagree with me or anyone else, you have no right to be abusive simply because your ego can't entertain the thought that someone dare hold a different opinion. And quite frankly, in my opinion -- which is not any less vaild than yours despite what you think -- anyone who supports the degredation of our Constitution, for any reason, is a trator.


I'm sorry. I didn't realize you can't read.

This thread is a trash heap of people who have definitely been wearing way too much tin foil.

This thread is a trash heap of people who have definitely been wearing way too much tin foil.
No proper argument, then?

Thought as much.

I saw this pretty funny clip from some comedian-news show where this guy showed how the patriot act, in a way, basically removes all articles of the Bill of Rights, except for one, which I don't actually remember but get the feeling that without the others, its pretty useless.

That was Kieth Olberman, he's not a comedian, and the right that remains is the right not to have soldiers stationed in your home.

Bullshit. We had more than a few professionals and specialists on the scene after the July bombings in England. We jump to help with man-made as well as natural disasters. Government and citizens.

Especially Britain.
Mostly, though, we had to take all of your personnel out of the city because they were going batshit insane about it.

No proper argument, then?

Thought as much.

This thread is just conspiracy BS. I can see why you like it though. You have claimed on these forums the US Government carried out the 9/11 attacks.

This thread is a trash heap of people who have definitely been wearing way too much tin foil.Are you sure that those aren't irony foil hats?

Hmm yes. 3000 out of 18.7ish million and two smashed up buildings really compares adequately to over 30,000 out of about 6 million (I'm taking conscription and children being moved into the country into account) and vast tracts of the city being utterly flattened.

What matter in this debate is that a few million american, my father included (who landed on D-Day, were over there helping. No doubt your father was weaving prayer beeds with Nevillie Chamberlain.

I truly have to bow to your astonishing powers of debate. Got any more piss-poor arguments? No, you're shitting yourself to the words of FOX, let's just be honest. This has already been utterly refuted, I can't really be arsed to argue this again. Let's counter stupidity with more stupidity! Genius!

Very compelling intellect on you. Your mother must be proud.


Damn right I do. Without Saddam, there's a massive power vacuum, and all of the ethnic tensions are flaring up again, causing many more deaths than Saddam did, plus it's wrecking the country, just when Saddam was fixing it up again. Nice one there.

Oh, yeah, Saddam was a regular JFK, fixing up the country, tossing dissidents in woodchippers, upgrading those old rape rooms with state of the art video equipment...what a guy.

Afghanistan was indeed an uncontrollable shithole. And it still is to this day. The Taliban are still in control in the areas to the south, and the government doesn't really do... well... anything. At all.

Like, no AQ training camps? That's a start.