NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just watching the old Chris Rock show. They had on some guy -- didn't even catch his name, immaterial. Black guy, Affirmative Action advocate.

So he lists the people that need Affirmative Action --Blacks. Latinos. Asians. Arabs. Women. Jews.

Jews? Jews are getting financially screwed in America?

Excuse me if I'm missing something, but everything but white men.

Then, Chris Rock says "Oh, but it is worse than that. Go into any restaurant in New York and try to find a hostess who is more than 140 lbs. And heavy guys too. They have to be in the back".

Okay, so everyone but white men within 20 lbs of their optimal weight should get an advantage in college admissions, job hiring, etc.

It is crazy. That is why a perhaps once reasonable idea has gone INSANE.

Prejudicial action agaisnt white men or anyone based on race or sex is bigotry. Government's role is taking action AGAINST prejudice and bigotry, not instituting it.

I hate affirmative action. Whatever happened to the merit system? If i am the best, i should get the reward..not because I am a black woman..insane.

I hate affirmative action. Whatever happened to the merit system? If i am the best, i should get the reward..not because I am a black woman..insane.


Thats exactly right. all it does in encourage racism/sexism/all that other stuff. Essentially all it says is that white males should be discriminated against because our ancestors were dumb fucks... whats that purpose of that? Just because the people that lived before me were racist doesn't mean that i am. And i'm sorry that they did that to your ancestors, but i didnt do anything. Why should i lose a job that i'm more qualified for because i'm white? It pisses me off when people are dumbasses and think that they're better because of something about them. We are all human, and i hope that most people accept that. I just dont understand why the government must encourage people to discriminate to prevent discrimination? how does that even make sense? i mean, i'm open to an explanation if someone can give me one that doesnt involve people who died hundreds of years ago. That's all i've gotten so far. any takers?:confused:

Thats exactly right. all it does in encourage racism/sexism/all that other stuff. Essentially all it says is that white males should be discriminated against because our ancestors were dumb fucks... whats that purpose of that? Just because the people that lived before me were racist doesn't mean that i am. And i'm sorry that they did that to your ancestors, but i didnt do anything. Why should i lose a job that i'm more qualified for because i'm white? It pisses me off when people are dumbasses and think that they're better because of something about them. We are all human, and i hope that most people accept that. I just dont understand why the government must encourage people to discriminate to prevent discrimination? how does that even make sense? i mean, i'm open to an explanation if someone can give me one that doesnt involve people who died hundreds of years ago. That's all i've gotten so far. any takers?:confused:


My philosophy is exactly that. I think thats part of the problem with America..We care too much about what has happened in the past...ie slavery and what not, and don't look to the future.

I didn't know we ever had a meritocracy.

We care too much about what has happened in the past...ie slavery and what not, and don't look to the future.

When present problems are created by past events, corrections for those past events are necessary and justified, so that the future won't have those problems as well.

When present problems are created by past events, corrections for those past events are necessary and justified, lest the future have those problems as well.

Your dad kills a man..Should yuo be in trouble for his crimes? Likewise we need not worry about past sins against fellow men. Everyone is equal now, we all have the same playing field, so why not drop a racist program like AA?

When present problems are created by past events, corrections for those past events are necessary and justified, so that the future won't have those problems as well.

But effective, targeted solutions are much what I'd rather see. Base it off of a combination of merit/economic status. Then we'll see actual improvement over the past situation.

Your dad kills a man..Should yuou be in trouble for his crimes? Likewise we need not worry about past sins against fellow men.

Did you even read what I said?

Everyone is equal now, we all have the same playing field

:rolleyes:

what set me off on this issue is I have a son coming up to college. We've raised him very carefully in these regards, and he has a disprportionate (to our community) number of minority freinds. And my best friend is black so he has had postive influences all his life. He really is colorblind I think.

Anyway, we are watching TV the other day and something comes on about preferential treatment of minorities in college admissions. He literally laughed thought it was satire. I'm like, "No, it is serious.' He got this sick look on his face, likje "how could this be true?". I really think it disillusioned him about our society. You try to protect your kids about these issues and then it gets thrown in their face by the fucking government's hamhanded liberal meddling.

So another few young generations go forward pondering racial differences when it should be being put behind us.

It's all about politics and money. Notes and Votes.

But effective, targeted solutions are much what I'd rather see.

Yeah... "targeted."

So when there's a pattern of racist discrimination against certain groups today, and the consequences of racist discrimination in the past still affect those groups, it makes sense to target them with race-based criteria.

Wait...why the fuck would you protect him from this issue? That's not a very good idea at all.

Did you even read what I said?



:rolleyes:

Yes, and you are wrong. What happened two hundred years ago is already said and done. It has no effect now. Do africans, women, and other minorities not have equal rights laws protecting them?

So why then are we giving them added leverage, and hurting white men? Its not fair to us.

What happened two hundred years ago

Learn history.

is already said and done. It has no effect now.

Um, yes, it does. The past provides the foundations for the present. Racist government policies (segregation, inequity in social welfare programs, subsidization of de facto segregation) and a discriminatory labor market very much contributed to the present relative economic deprivation of Blacks and other minorities.

Learn history.



Um, yes, it does. The past provides the foundations for the present. Racist government policies (segregation, inequity in social welfare programs, subsidization of de facto segregation) and a discriminatory labor market very much contributed to the present relative economic deprivation of Blacks and other minorities.

So, by holding back one group makes it better? I don't think so. This is a capitalist society, who ever is best gets the bone in the end. A black man or woman, or asian or who ever has the same access to resources i do. They have the same chance as I do to succeed, so why do we boost them even more?

So, by holding back one group makes it better?

No... affirmative action to correct the pattern of racial inequality and discrimination "makes it better."

I don't think so. This is a capitalist society, who ever is best gets the bone in the end.

And when our society's measure of "best" is prejudiced against minorities and incorporates factors negatively affected by the sorts of inequalities faced by minorities, that doesn't solve the problem.

A black man or woman, or asian or who ever has the same access to resources i do.

That is a very naive, and utterly false, assumption.

Some black men and women might, but as always, in terms of actually deciding on policy we must approximate.

They have the same chance as I do to succeed, so why do we boost them even more?

Your assumption is false, so the question is illegitimate.

The problems that occured in the past do affect our future. We all have equal rights, but that does not mean were are all equal financially or intellectually. Alot of the black population isn't doing to well and yes, the problems of the past are the reasons. Sure maybe your one black friend is doing good. He doesn't represent the whole black population. Affirmative Action is not to discriminate against white men. It's trying to bring everyone else onto the same level, because no one else is at that level. You can't just throw in equality to people who have had nothing but the clothes on their back and expect them to function just as good as everyone else. Many people just don't see the problems that we African Americans are facing here in America. They think everyone is getting along just dandy,but if you look over the hedge of White American Surburbia, there's something else over there. Go see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Soheran...Who exactly is forcing anyone to live in poverty? Who is physically forcing Joe Blow to work at McDonalds for all his life? Who is forcing someone to drop out of HS for no reason? No one. Anyone can move up or down the social ladder if they work hard enough and make the right decisions. Some people would rather make excuses though and get an easier ride through life, at the expense of everyone else.

The problems that occured in the past do affect our future. We all have equal rights, but that does not mean were are all equal financially or intellectually. Alot of the black population isn't doing to well and yes, the problems of the past are the reasons. Sure maybe your one black friend is doing good. He doesn't represent the whole black population. Affirmative Action is not to discriminate against white men. It's trying to bring everyone else onto the same level, because no one else is at that level. You can't just throw in equality to people who have had nothing but the clothes on their back and expect them to function just as good as everyone else. Many people just don't see the problems that we African Americans are facing here in America. They think everyone is getting along just dandy,but if you look over the hedge of White American Surburbia, there's something else over there. Go see for yourself if you don't believe me.

I'll give you an example of how you are wrong. its a story of one of my friends. He applied for a full ride scholarship to a school, and really he was very deserving of it..4.0 all his school career, did community work and so on. Yet he was denied basically because the school had to have a quota..or a certain ammount of people of minority backgroounds. Ends up the guy that got the scholarship was a C student, did poorly on his ACTs, but since he was part mexican and part black, he fit the quote need, and got the scholarship, even though he was not qualified. Last I heard, that kid quit school after the first semester. that sure is fair!

Anyone can move up or down the social ladder if they work hard enough and make the right decisions.

Maybe (though I doubt it) - but if you're born the wrong "race" or to the wrong family or with the wrong natural talents, it can be a whole lot harder.

When present problems are created by past events, corrections for those past events are necessary and justified, so that the future won't have those problems as well.

Though that was once true, I think it is rather a simplistic notion to have as well as an example of legislated bigotry in it's own right, especially as those situations and laws you describe are now pretty much eradicated from society at large. Moreover it sets up an entitlement mentality where everyone who either has or feels they have been mistreated as a racial/sexual or ethnic group in the past all want their free goodies. And frankly, that means almost ALL of us.

Where does it stop?

Maybe (though I doubt it) - but if you're born the wrong "race" or to the wrong family or with the wrong natural talents, it can be a whole lot harder.

Well sure, it might take a bit more work from going from working at Burger King to owning the company, but the resources are still there to do it. This nation was built on hard work, not freeloading

Just wanted to clarify something: I am not racist, nor bigoted or anything like that. In fact I have more minority friends than caucausian friends, but I just don't think its fair to give other people an advantage over myself because of something that happened before i was born

Yet he was denied basically because the school had to have a quota..or a certain ammount of people of minority backgroounds.

Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke)

Why is it that so many opponents of affirmative action not only have no clue as to what the real arguments for it actually are (and exhibit immense close-mindedness when they are brought up), but also have no clue as to what the program actually constitutes?

Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke)

Why is it that so many opponents of affirmative action not only have no clue as to what the real arguments for it actually are (and exhibit immense close-mindedness when they are brought up), but also have no clue as to what the program actually constitutes?
Tell that to my friend. Maybe he should sue the school and freeload the rest of his life:p

Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke)

Why is it that so many opponents of affirmative action not only have no clue as to what the real arguments for it actually are (and exhibit immense close-mindedness when they are brought up), but also have no clue as to what the program actually constitutes?
Tell that to my friend. Maybe he should sue the school and freeload the rest of his life:p

And please show me my close mindedness. I don't understand how wanting an equal level for everyone, not just minorities, is closed minded?

especially as those situations and laws you describe are now pretty much eradicated from society at large.

The laws, maybe. The discrimination is not. Nor are the consequences of past discrimination.

Moreover it sets up an entitlement mentality where everyone who either has or feels they have been mistreated as a racial/sexual or ethnic group in the past all want their free goodies.

No... just anyone who actually has, has been substantially affected by it, and is part of a group that has that is large enough to merit attention.

Well sure, it might take a bit more work from going from working at Burger King to owning the company, but the resources are still there to do it.

My point was actually very different from that one, so instead of saying "well, sure" and making an irrelevant comment, I advise you to actually try to read and understand what I say next time.

Soheran...Who exactly is forcing anyone to live in poverty? Who is physically forcing Joe Blow to work at McDonalds for all his life? Who is forcing someone to drop out of HS for no reason? No one. Anyone can move up or down the social ladder if they work hard enough and make the right decisions. Some people would rather make excuses though and get an easier ride through life, at the expense of everyone else.
So... let's compare then.

Person A is a white male, middle class. His parents can afford all the neat toys, all the prep lessons, all the perks.

Person B is a black male, working class. His parents can barely put food on the table at the end of the day. He doesn't get a computer, or books, or trips to the museum, too expensive. He may have to get a job to help pay for his family's food, time out of studying there.

Wanna tell me how the two have an equal playing field then?

The problems that occured in the past do affect our future. We all have equal rights, but that does not mean were are all equal financially or intellectually. Alot of the black population isn't doing to well and yes, the problems of the past are the reasons. Sure maybe your one black friend is doing good. He doesn't represent the whole black population. Affirmative Action is not to discriminate against white men. It's trying to bring everyone else onto the same level, because no one else is at that level. You can't just throw in equality to people who have had nothing but the clothes on their back and expect them to function just as good as everyone else. Many people just don't see the problems that we African Americans are facing here in America. They think everyone is getting along just dandy,but if you look over the hedge of White American Surburbia, there's something else over there. Go see for yourself if you don't believe me.

I'll look over my hedge. I see a Japanese family. The son is working toward a high honors degree in mathematics. The wife works two jobs, one as a launderer. The father owns a small sushi restaurant. The were locked up during WW2, a lot of prejudice lingered on. all fine now.

Other hedge is a Jewish family. Came over from the holocaust, horrible prejudice. The bank he founded owns the mortgage on my house.

Over the back is an Indian family. Never see them they both work two jobs. Their kid is on the honor roll and won a national spelling bee. Already has offers from college.

Tell that to my friend. Maybe he should sue the school and freeload the rest of his life:p
Sorry, mysterious "friends" constitutes an urban legend and not proof. I keep hearing this "Oh, he was admitted because he is black" or "I was passed up because I'm white and they need a quota' or whatever, but when we try to pin this down as to specifics, it always happens to a 'friend'.

Got proof?

I was just watching the old Chris Rock show. They had on some guy -- didn't even catch his name, immaterial. Black guy, Affirmative Action advocate.

So he lists the people that need Affirmative Action --Blacks. Latinos. Asians. Arabs. Women. Jews.

Jews? Jews are getting financially screwed in America?

Excuse me if I'm missing something, but everything but white men.

Then, Chris Rock says "Oh, but it is worse than that. Go into any restaurant in New York and try to find a hostess who is more than 140 lbs. And heavy guys too. They have to be in the back".

Okay, so everyone but white men within 20 lbs of their optimal weight should get an advantage in college admissions, job hiring, etc.

It is crazy. That is why a perhaps once reasonable idea has gone INSANE.

Prejudicial action agaisnt white men or anyone based on race or sex is bigotry. Government's role is taking action AGAINST prejudice and bigotry, not instituting it.
Why do you have your drawers in a bunch over this? Affirmative Action does not exist in any way similar to the way in which it was originally conceived or implemented. Fuck, man, it barely exists at all. There are no quotas, there are no set-asides, there's not even a requirement for diversity in universities anymore. You guys won--you put the blacks back in their place.

So... let's compare then.

Person A is a white male, middle class. His parents can afford all the neat toys, all the prep lessons, all the perks.

Person B is a black male, working class. His parents can barely put food on the table at the end of the day. He doesn't get a computer, or books, or trips to the museum, too expensive. He may have to get a job to help pay for his family's food, time out of studying there.

Wanna tell me how the two have an equal playing field then?

and for the poor white kids? Screw them too, eh?

Sorry, mysterious "friends" constitutes an urban legend and not proof. I keep hearing this "Oh, he was admitted because he is black" or "I was passed up because I'm white and they need a quota' or whatever, but when we try to pin this down as to specifics, it always happens to a 'friend'.

Got proof?

I can TG you his details if he will let me give out his personal info, and you can ask him yourself.

and ok it wasn't a friend it happened to my uncle back when he was trying to get in college in the late 70s. :p

and for the poor white kids? Screw them too, eh?
Actually since socio-economic status is a factor that can be taken into account...

I don't understand how wanting an equal level for everyone, not just minorities, is closed minded?

No, phrasing it like that - "equal level for everyone" - completely misses the point and illustrates the close-mindedness.

Affirmative action supporters want an equal level for everyone, too. Not only do we want it, but unlike affirmative action opponents, we support affirmative action to make sure it actually happens.

and for the poor white kids? Screw them too, eh?
Nope--but let's not pretend that on the socio-economic chain, being poor and white still gets you more of a shot at a job than being even middle-class and black. Hell, in one recent study, white men with prison convictions got more calls back for second interviews than black men with no prison record. Still think skin color doesn't matter?

Edit: Here's the link (http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_09172003).

I can TG you his details if he will let me give out his personal info, and you can ask him yourself.
And he has proof that the scholarship was awarded exactly the way he says? Because I hear sour grapes.

Still think skin color doesn't matter?

Yes skin colour matter, but only becuase we hav programs like affirmitive action that make it matter.

Yes skin colour matter, but only becuase we hav programs like affirmitive action that make it matter.
I'm sorry, but that's retarded. You're saying that hiring discrimination exists because of programs like Affirmative Action? Take a look back at the hiring situation before AA existed and then tell me the situation is worse now. Even with AA as weak as it is now, it's still marginally effective in closing the gap.

Yes skin colour matter, but only becuase we hav programs like affirmitive action that make it matter.

That statement makes me think that you are either hopelessly ignorant or very much bigoted.

I'm sorry, but that's retarded. You're saying that hiring discrimination exists because of programs like Affirmative Action? Take a look back at the hiring situation before AA existed and then tell me the situation is worse now. Even with AA as weak as it is now, it's still marginally effective in closing the gap.

And what if we have a generation born where they can look at a person and say hey, thats a person, not hey, thats a black/asian/white/etc. But because of programs like AA, where it promotes one group more than another, it provides more of an emphasis on skin color. Hell if you are a black male, you must have it damn easy, either welfare or AA will get you through life. God forbid working for anything. I mean it sucks that I have to work a min wage jb and try to stuggle through school, while my parents are on the verge of financial disaster, but i am not crying about anything. I keep on working hard, knowing that it will pay off in the end. W are raising a generation of lazy people. How will they make things better in their community if they don't learn how to work hard?

Hell if you are a black male, you must have it damn easy, either welfare or AA will get you through life. God forbid working for anything.

I've decided. It's both.

That statement makes me think that you are either hopelessly ignorant or very much bigoted.

Bigoted? How so? Like I said, a majority of my friends are minorities. Doesn't mean I want to give them an easier ride through life than myself though. If you want a truly equal society, you will rid the nation of shit that raises one side over the other.

I've decided. It's both.

Right because disagreeing with you makes me both an ignorant person, and a bigot. Im glad life is so clear now!

Like I said, a majority of my friends are minorities.

Yeah, most bigots say something along those lines when they're called on it.

It was a stupid defense the first time and it didn't get any less stupid the billionth time.

Right because disagreeing with you makes me both a ignorant person, and a bigot. Im glad life is so clear now!

No, repeating utterly false racist stereotypes like you just did makes you ignorant and bigoted.

When present problems are created by past events, corrections for those past events are necessary and justified, so that the future won't have those problems as well.
I don't mean to pick at you, but I find it odd for an anarchist to be defending affirmative action. Isn't this exactly the sort of problem society should, and in the anarchist view will, have to cope with on its own, without governmental intervention?

Yeah, most bigots say something along those lines when they're called on it.

It was a stupid defense the first time and it didn't get any less stupid the billionth time.

I honestly could care less what you think. You are obviously some fool, self righteouss person, that thinks by being so open minded that you've lost your brain, makes you a good person. that only shows YOUR close mindedness.

Right because disagreeing with you makes me both a ignorant person, and a bigot. Im glad life is so clear now!

you know who you remind me of? Those frat boys from Borat who were talking about how the minorities have the power in this country.

Are you absolutly completely insane? Or are you just plain old racist (yes yes, you have black friends, we know...)? You think it's easier in this country to be black? Do you have ANY IDEA how hard it is to be a disenfranchised minority in this country, especially in the urban areas? Do you have any idea how much the legacy of slavery continues to skew economic properity and continue a cycle of poverty?

There are MASSIVE economic and social problems in this country that can be traced back, DIRECTLY back to slavery. No law, no amendment, no alteration that says "slavery is illegal" can wave a magic wand and *poof* change the fact that generations of blacks in this country were treated as property without education, without a legacy to leave to their children. The evils of slavery still resonate quite strongly today.

Do you have any idea that simply being born black in this country makes you statistically far, FAR more likely to be born into poverty, to attend substandard schools, to be raised by a single parent, to have one parent in jail, to drop out of highschool, and to work a minimum wage job?

But screw that, things are "all equal now" huh?

I don't mean to pick at you, but I find it odd for an anarchist to be defending affirmative action. Isn't this exactly the sort of problem society should, and in the anarchist view will, have to cope with on its own, without governmental intervention?

Well, firstly, affirmative action is often implemented through private institutions.

Secondly, I see no reason why an anarchist commune or federation of communes could not decide, on a free and democratic basis, to incorporate "race" as a factor for acceptance into competitive positions.

You forget that not only am I an anarchist, but also a socialist - my brand of anarchism does not seek to privatize the public sphere, but rather to put the public sphere directly in the hands of the public.

I honestly could care less what you think. You are obviously some fool, self righteouss person, that thinks by being so open minded that you've lost your brain, makes you a good person. that only shows YOUR close mindedness.

let me ask you one, very simple, very direct question.

Do you believe that slavery caused social and economic ramifications that negatively affected black americans, and those social and economic ramifications continued on even after slavery was absolished, and continue on today.

Or, to put it simply, do you think that minorities are worse today, 150 years after the abolition of slavery, then they would be if slavery never happened?

No, repeating utterly false racist stereotypes like you just did makes you ignorant and bigoted.


Again. I could care less what you say. I know I am not a racist, and you know nothing about my life, and I am sure you have no experience in the field besides what you read on far left websites and journals.

Well, firstly, affirmative action is often implemented through private institutions.

Secondly, I see no reason why an anarchist commune or federation of communes could not decide, on a free and democratic basis, to incorporate "race" as a factor for acceptance into competitive positions.

You forget that not only am I an anarchist, but also a socialist - my brand of anarchism does not seek to privatize the public sphere, but rather to put the public sphere directly in the hands of the public.
Ok, that is reasonable. Thanks.

I know I am not a racist.

You believe that the effects of slavery do not continue to put blacks in this country at a disadvantage and that it's "easy" to be an urban low income black person in this society?

Surprise, you're a racist!

let me ask you one, very simple, very direct question.

Do you believe that slavery caused social and economic ramifications that negatively affected black americans, and those social and economic ramifications continued on even after slavery was absolished, and continue on today.

Or, to put it simply, do you think that minorities are worse today, 150 years after the abolition of slavery, then they would be if slavery never happened?
Sure, slavery did have a negative impact on their lives, but they have had 150 yrs to build themselves up. They made great progress for a while too. Talk to people from the civil rights era. Some of the greatest people I know are from that era, when they had to fight for their rights, when they had to work to get anywhere in life. Now talk to kids from today, what do they want to be? rappers, bball stars, or whatever. They don't care about working 9-5, 5 days a week. They cause their own problems by dropping out of school, or not getting involved, or whatever. don't give me the excuse that they can't get involved. Minorities are obviously a powerful group in this nation, so they can make a difference, so why should i sacrifice my life and dreams so that some hopeless HS dropout can make it through life?

You believe that the effects of slavery do not continue to put blacks in this country at a disadvantage and that it's "easy" to be an urban low income black person in this society?

Surprise, you're a racist!

False

Top Web Results for "Racist"
3 results for: Racist

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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
rac‧ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

—Related forms
racist, noun, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
rac·ism (rszm) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Racist" [P]
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


racist adj. & n.

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WordNet - Cite This Source

Racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

Not once have I been anti minority. I am anti special treatment because of skin color. The more you give attention to skin color, the more it will matter, and the more someone will be discriminated against.

Sure, slavery did have a negative impact on their lives, but they have had 150 yrs to build themselves up. They made great progress for a while too. Talk to people from the civil rights era. Some of the greatest people I know are from that era, when they had to fight for their rights, when they had to work to get anywhere in life. Now talk to kids from today, what do they want to be? rappers, bball stars, or whatever.

Two problems, one...have you talked to any of those civil rights leaders when THEY were kids? Talking to aged adults and talking to kids is not the most accurate way of gauging societal development.

And second...you don't consider any of that societal in the slightest?


They don't care about working 9-5, 5 days a week. They cause their own problems by dropping out of school, or not getting involved, or whatever.

When you don't have enough money to eat, staying in school and not working might not be an option

don't give me the excuse that they can't get involved. Minorities are obviously a powerful group in this nation, so they can make a difference,

The bolded part is where I go oh....my....god.

You...you believe this shit don't you? You think MINORITIES are the POWERFUL group in this country?

What

the

fuck?

so why should i sacrifice my life and dreams so that some hopeless HS dropout can make it through life?

You know what amazes me is that the argument against AA is the same argument against immigration, "they're taking our jobs!". Tell me pal, your life ever effected in the least by affirmative action? I have found in my experience all the people who bitch about "those damned HS dropouts who took my place" really just weren't that good.

False

too bad your own definition proves you wrong. I don't have to go further than the first one to demonstrate it.

Now blacks in this country have a higher dropout rate, higher criminal rate, higher unemployment rate, lower education rate, higher rate of drug use, lower income rate, higher rate of teen pregnancy, higher rate of singleparenthood, higher rate of being on welfare/medicare/medicade, all of this is true.

This is either caused by social conditions, or genetic ones. Now most intelligent people recognize that it's social conditions, generally caused by a history of racism, bigotry, hatred and distrust in this country, as well as lasting effects of slavery, and that there's nothing inherent about being BLACK that causes this, but rather the history of repression.

Now you've rejected any social causes for this explanation. So if the option is social, or genetic, and you rejected social, you basically just said "they suck because they're black".

Now let's take a look at the very first definition you posted:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement

surprise, you're a racist!

My beef with Affirmative Action isn't being angry at getting passed over because I'm white when I'm applying for a job but wondering when I get the job if they truly thought I deserved it, or if they let me in just because I am a woman.

I find Affirmative Action overly patronizing. It's like the lawmakers are saying 'women, religious minorities, and people of color aren't as skillful and intelligent as white men so they need special treatment in order to get into colleges and jobs.'

In my opinion college quotas and job interviewers should focus more on income and less on race when considering a person if they really want to level the playing field.

Not once have I been anti minority. I am anti special treatment because of skin color. The more you give attention to skin color, the more it will matter, and the more someone will be discriminated against.

Your attitude is 100% wrong. You can't let a system swing radically in one direction, then simply stop and expect it to correct itself over time.

Minorities, especially blacks in this country, have been systematically, directly, intentionally, overtly, screwed over, for generations. You can't just go "well, sorry bout that, have a good life now".

Damage has been done, the system betrayed an entire group of people. Now the system needs to pay them back, and help them out, for putting them in the situation to begin with.

The problem with you is you talk a talk but are totally unwilling to walk it. You pull the "slavery was bad and shouldn't have happened, and yeah it's screwing you over even now...but um...sorry, the political system shouldn't HELP you get out of the position that the political system helped put you in in the first place"

I despise affirmative action.

In theory, it's a fine idea, but, in practice, it becomes state-sanctioned discrimination because someone happens to be born with skin that is anything but 'coloured'.

AA is bullshit that has outlived its purpose. It simply allows for discrimination to exist. If the idea as a people to progress forward, then we cannot continue to allow discriminatory practices to exist, whether positive or not.

Go on, call me a racist or whatever your little heart desires simply because I think that positive discrimination is still fucking discrimination.

All AA is just that, 'positive' discrimination.

I could care less about someone's ethnicity. I think if there is to be any discrimination, it should be on the skills that the person possess, nothing more.

There are visible gaps between the different "income" brackets. But, poverty knows no ethnic boundaries.

If everyone is concerned about giving other people fair starts, stop busting my back by pushing incompetent people ahead of competent people because of "quotas". Perhaps if we invested in early childhood education, and education in general, as well as social programs that give tax breaks to those in the lower end, and tax those earning more than enough appropriately then we'd see a change.

Progressive policies can do more than fucking "quotas" and AA.

AA is a crutch for people who think there is something evil about investing in education, healthcare, social programmes, and any type of "tax relief" for those earning below a certain limit.

Go on, insult me.

I don't care!

I frankly think that any type of 'quota' is detrimental to creating a truly equal world. An equal world allows for people to rise and fall on their own merits, with a safety net in place for those who have come upon hard times.

Two problems, one...have you talked to any of those civil rights leaders when THEY were kids? Talking to aged adults and talking to kids is not the most accurate way of gauging societal development. And second...you don't consider any of that societal in the slightest?

Im sure when they were children they never dropped out of school because they wanted to be a rapper...:rolleyes:

When you don't have enough money to eat, staying in school and not working might not be an option

Bullshit. My parents worked min wage jobs, with me as a baby, and they were both 17, and finished HS, and even college. You don't think we haven't missed a meal a few times? I know all about missing meals, or having ratty clothes or what have you. I am poor. I was raised poor. I know all about it. Kthx



The bolded part is where I go oh....my....god.

The truth was shown? :p


You...you believe this shit don't you? You think MINORITIES are the POWERFUL group in this country?

What

the

fuck?


So I guess NAACP, or any of those groups have NO power at all in this country? I thought i heard something about power in numbers, if you have enough people trying to change something, it will change. Look at the Civil rights movement. It just takes work and dedication.


You know what amazes me is that the argument against AA is the same argument against immigration, "they're taking our jobs!". Tell me pal, your life ever effected in the least by affirmative action? I have found in my experience all the people who bitch about "those damned HS dropouts who took my place" really just weren't that good.

Suprisingly enough, I am for nearly completly open borders. I figure if they want to come and work, and make it in the world, then good. But once they loaf around and take advantage of tax money and social programs, then no thank you.

I find Affirmative Action overly patronizing. It's like the lawmakers are saying 'women, religious minorities, and people of color aren't as skillful and intelligent as white men so they need special treatment in order to get into colleges and jobs.'

I don't see it that way. I see it as "the lawmakers" saying "hey, society has screwed you over a lot, and you were at a disadvantage from the moment you were born, and those disadvantages have probably kept you from succeeding as much as if you were born a white male, it's not your fault, it's not that you're not skillful, it's not that you're not intelligent, it's because that you have a harder time, because of historical racism/sexism/bigotry, and we're willing not to put you in a place you don't DESERVE to be, but help you get to where you SHOULD be, and probably WOULD be, were it not for the system being directly stacked against you from the moment you were born"

Sure, slavery did have a negative impact on their lives, but they have had 150 yrs to build themselves up. They made great progress for a while too. Talk to people from the civil rights era. Some of the greatest people I know are from that era, when they had to fight for their rights, when they had to work to get anywhere in life. Now talk to kids from today, what do they want to be? rappers, bball stars, or whatever. They don't care about working 9-5, 5 days a week. They cause their own problems by dropping out of school, or not getting involved, or whatever. don't give me the excuse that they can't get involved. Minorities are obviously a powerful group in this nation, so they can make a difference, so why should i sacrifice my life and dreams so that some hopeless HS dropout can make it through life?

See that bolded part? That's the big lie. Come to grips with that much and then we can have a reasonable conversation. You may not think you're bigoted, but if you're still believing that African-Americans have had a fair shake since the end of the Civil War, you are.

too bad your own definition proves you wrong. I don't have to go further than the first one to demonstrate it.

Now blacks in this country have a higher dropout rate, higher criminal rate, higher unemployment rate, lower education rate, higher rate of drug use, lower income rate, higher rate of teen pregnancy, higher rate of singleparenthood, higher rate of being on welfare/medicare/medicade, all of this is true.

This is either caused by social conditions, or genetic ones. Now most intelligent people recognize that it's social conditions, generally caused by a history of racism, bigotry, hatred and distrust in this country, as well as lasting effects of slavery, and that there's nothing inherent about being BLACK that causes this, but rather the history of repression.

Now you've rejected any social causes for this explanation. So if the option is social, or genetic, and you rejected social, you basically just said "they suck because they're black".

Now let's take a look at the very first definition you posted:



surprise, you're a racist!

No I accept two social causes, they have no motivation. If you sit here and give them something free, then why even try to work hard? Hell, if i got free things all my life, i'd want to sit and be lazy too.

and secondly, excuses. I hear all the time from hustlers that the reason they have to hustle drugs, is because the man holds them down. Since when did the gov't tell them they can't better themselves through education and hard like everyone else?

So suprise, you're a tard!

See that bolded part? That's the big lie. Come to grips with that much and then we can have a reasonable conversation. You may not think you're bigoted, but if you're still believing that African-Americans have had a fair shake since the end of the Civil War, you are.


Well lets look at the Jews and Israel. Its only been around for 60ish yrs, right? But yet it is one of the most advanced nations in the world. However, the people that made up that nation had been some of the most held down, and persecuted people in the history of the world. But they know they have to work hard, even if the odds are against them, and they have risen up against the odds, and are very successful today. But I guess thats different somehow.

If the idea as a people to progress forward, then we cannot continue to allow discriminatory practices to exist, whether positive or not.

The idea is to get racial equality. That means we actually have to address the problem of racial inequality.

I could care less about someone's ethnicity. I think if there is to be any discrimination, it should be on the skills that the person possess, nothing more.

Unfortunately, there is discrimination, and there was discrimination that has had severely negative effects on minorities today, and it is not based simply "on the skills that the person possess" - so, if we want equality of opportunity, we have to counteract that.

There are visible gaps between the different "income" brackets. But, poverty knows no ethnic boundaries.

There are also "visible gaps" between the different "races," independent of income.

If everyone is concerned about giving other people fair starts, stop busting my back by pushing incompetent people ahead of competent people because of "quotas".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke

Perhaps if we invested in early childhood education, and education in general, as well as social programs that give tax breaks to those in the lower end, and tax those earning more than enough appropriately then we'd see a change.

Progressive policies can do more than fucking "quotas" and AA.

AA is a crutch for people who think there is something evil about investing in education, healthcare, social programmes, and any type of "tax relief" for those earning below a certain limit.

Try again. I staunchly support all of that.

I frankly think that any type of 'quota' is detrimental to creating a truly equal world.

Depends on the function and purpose of the quota.

An equal world allows for people to rise and fall on their own merits,

An equal world despises meritocracy as another kind of unjust rule, but that's beside the point, because the whole point of affirmative action is to permit minorities genuinely equal opportunity.

I hear all the time from hustlers that the reason they have to hustle drugs, is because the man holds them down. Since

See, the problem is, all the "black kids who want to be rappers and sell drugs"...well, I don't know how to tell you this, but the criminals you see on Law and Order? They' actors..it's not actually real, it doesn't really mirror real life.

All those things about "teh evil black people", try to actually talk to real people, rather than believing what's on TV, k? Of course, to do that you might actually have to talk to honest to god real black people, so I know that's scary for you.

Bigoted? How so? Like I said, a majority of my friends are minorities. Doesn't mean I want to give them an easier ride through life than myself though. If you want a truly equal society, you will rid the nation of shit that raises one side over the other.

Oops. That phrase is a big warning sign of bigotry.

I have heard my relatives say that and they are rednecks.

Do they even know your viewpoints on minority matters?

Well lets look at the Jews and Israel. Its only been around for 60ish yrs, right? But yet it is one of the most advanced nations in the world. However, the people that made up that nation had been some of the most held down, and persecuted people in the history of the world. But they know they have to work hard, even if the odds are against them, and they have risen up against the odds, and are very successful today. But I guess thats different somehow.

It is, because the Jews had a hell of a head start--they were established societies that were doing quite well outside Germany prior to WWII, and they got tremendous help from the West in getting started once they were given their own country. What's more, once they got their own country, no one was actively oppressing them anymore. Their situation's not even remotely similar to the one that African-Americans faced once the former Confederacy regained control of the south after Grant left office--or did I just imagine Jim Crow and the Klan and all the rest of it?

You know, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt earlier, assuming you were a generally well-meaning person who'd just been fed a line of shit. I'm starting to wonder now.

Well lets look at the Jews and Israel. Its only been around for 60ish yrs, right? But yet it is one of the most advanced nations in the world. However, the people that made up that nation had been some of the most held down, and persecuted people in the history of the world. But they know they have to work hard, even if the odds are against them, and they have risen up against the odds, and are very successful today. But I guess thats different somehow.

Israel was given a great deal of support from the United States in terms both of money, of technology, and of weapons. It gained a great deal of brain power from american jews, educated and intelligent, who helped it build its infrastructure. It received large aid from the industrialized world.

Now what does that tell us? It tells us a people, even if they've been marginalized, put down, disenfranchised and treated inhumanely can, with help, support, generosity, and an enviornment where they can escape the hostility and bigotry that has kept them down, grow beyond all that to flurish.

Which would seem to support affirmative action programs quite well.

Congratulations, your use of analogy only resulted in you owning yourself.

See, the problem is, all the "black kids who want to be rappers and sell drugs"...well, I don't know how to tell you this, but the criminals you see on Law and Order? They' actors..it's not actually real, it doesn't really mirror real life.

All those things about "teh evil black people", try to actually talk to real people, rather than believing what's on TV, k? Of course, to do that you might actually have to talk to honest to god real black people, so I know that's scary for you.

Jesus tap dancing christ. How can I make it anymore clear? I live on a floor of black people at school. I grew up in a "ghetto" with a lot of black people around. I have many great friends and family members that are black. BUT I am not going to ignore real problems in that community such as what i said, lack of motivation and excuses. If they can get past that, they will run this country one day. And I will be happy when they do.

All I am trying to say is that just because someone is black, brown, green, blue or whatever, doesn't entitle them to unfair special treatment. I have a dark tint to my skin, due to mixture of native american, hispanic and middle eastern descent, where is my special treatment? Thats right, because i am considered white by the gov't, i don't get any. Fair i tell ya!

Jesus tap dancing christ. How can I make it anymore clear? I live on a floor of black people at school. I grew up in a "ghetto" with a lot of black people around. I have many great friends and family members that are black. BUT I am not going to ignore real problems in that community such as what i said, lack of motivation and excuses. If they can get past that, they will run this country one day. And I will be happy when they do.

When you say things like:

Hell if you are a black male, you must have it damn easy, either welfare or AA will get you through life. God forbid working for anything.

...you're a bigot. Period.

I do not trust bigots to give accurate, unbiased portrayals of problems in the communities of the "races" against which they are prejudiced. Nor do I trust anectodal evidence.

BUT I am not going to ignore real problems in that community such as what i said, lack of motivation and excuses.

And you have continually, directly, refused to recognize WHY that lack of motivation exists in the first place. Maybe you get disenfranchised growing up in a system where you were at a disadvantage from before you were even born, ya think?

If they can get past that, they will run this country one day. And I will be happy when they do.

Well seems like a perfectly good reason to support AA then huh?

Thats right, because i am considered white by the gov't, i don't get any. Fair i tell ya!

Probably because you're considered white by the rest of the society, with all attended benefits with it.

Oops. That phrase is a big warning sign of bigotry.

I have heard my relatives say that and they are rednecks.

Do they even know your viewpoints on minority matters?

You can look at anything I have said, and not find anything degrading anyone of colour or anything. I said that in the black community there is a wave of laziness, and no motivation. Black leaders will even tell you this. I love people of color. I find the african american culture amazing, and hell of a lot better than white american culture. I love to listen to hip hop, jazz, and blues, all black dominated music. Still bigoted? look at my religous beliefs. I am a christian. I beleive that all are equal in the eyes of God, no one is better than the other. And i believe in helping the truly misfortunate, hence my missionary goal in two years to help out poor communities in lebanon. But yet I am a bigot? I don't understand it.

I think the difference between me and most other people on here is that I have grown up around all of this. My dad is a member of the NAACP. I have even hugged Jesse Jackson(which is wierd), but I am not denying the problems, and making excuses. Maybe some of these far left elitists on here need to actually practice what they preach and go try and help change things in the minority community, not give them more excuses to bail out in life.

When you say things like:



...you're a bigot. Period.

I do not trust bigots to give accurate, unbiased portrayals of problems in the communities of the "races" against which they are prejudiced. Nor do I trust anectodal evidence.

And if a blakc man said something about how easy white men have it? Then its the truth, and not bigoted?

I'll go a step further and say sorry, because that was unfair just to point out black people on that.. Is this better? "Hell, it must be easy to be anyone on welfare or social programs, and not have to work for anything." Feel better now? Pat yourself on the back and eat a cookie; you made me say sorry.

And if a blakc man said something about how easy white men have it? Then its the truth, and not bigoted?

Yes. Because it is, relatively.

(Now, if he said something about how they never have to work for anything, that would be inaccurate and unfair.)

I'll go a step further and say sorry, because that was unfair just to point out black people on that.. Is this better? "Hell, it must be easy to be anyone on welfare or social programs, and not have to work for anything."

No.

And you have continually, directly, refused to recognize WHY that lack of motivation exists in the first place. Maybe you get disenfranchised growing up in a system where you were at a disadvantage from before you were even born, ya think?



Well seems like a perfectly good reason to support AA then huh?



Probably because you're considered white by the rest of the society, with all attended benefits with it.

Lack of motivation is from the eexcuses they are feed. Let me ask you something. If someone kept saying for all your life that your life that you will never be anything, because the blue eyed people rule the world, and you brown eyed people have been so persecuted for so long, wouldn't you give up hope too?

Lack of motivation is from the eexcuses they are feed.

As long as so many whites continue to believe that blacks are infantile creatures who cannot think for themselves and do not hold opinions worthy of attention, our society will continue to be racist, and I will continue to doubt the sincerity of the same whites going on about their earnest desire for a color-blind society.

And if a blakc man said something about how easy white men have it? Then its the truth, and not bigoted?

Do you believe that being white does not grant certain benefits just from being white?

Do you honestly believe that is not true?

I'll go a step further and say sorry, because that was unfair just to point out black people on that.. Is this better? "Hell, it must be easy to be anyone on welfare or social programs, and not have to work for anything." Feel better now? Pat yourself on the back and eat a cookie; you made me say sorry.

If you are under the impression that welfare provides anything even CLOSE to a liveable income, and that it's not conditional on one's ability to work, and one's attempt to find employment, you are sadly mistaken.

The fact is you don't know a THING about what you're talking about, and are under this dillusion that black babies are pulled into a special room when they're children and told "don't worry, you don't have to do any work in your life, we'll take care of you, the check's in the mail. And by the way when you hit 17 do you want to go to Harvard, Yale, Wesleyan or MIT? Don't worry about getting you in, we'll just bump some kid for idaho."

I'm fully convinced you really think that being black and poor in this country is like that.

Yes. Because it is, relatively.

(Now, if he said something about how they never have to work for anything, that would be inaccurate and unfair.)



No.


Im really getting fed up with you about now, but I'll be nice. Would please explain to me how white people have it easier, when programs like AA give minorities an easier route to success?

Let me create an illustration for you. You have two race cars. One has a history of winning many races, while the other has struggled in the past. However, due to a new rule in the racing league, both are giving equal monies to upgrade(civil rights acts) their motors and cars, would it be fair to give the second car a headstart, and shorcuts, while throwing obstacles at the first car? Or would it be fair to let both start at the same time, doing the same track, and letting the better driver win?

As long as so many whites continue to believe that blacks are infantile creatures who cannot think for themselves and do not hold opinions worthy of attention, our society will continue to be racist, and I will continue to doubt the sincerity of the same whites going on about their earnest desire for a color-blind society.


And isn't AA making it seem like blacks are incapable of moving up on their own? Isn't that what its all abut? I think so.
Yeah, AA is prety much saying that blacks are incapable of overcoming things and moving up in the world, and thus they should be given special treatment

Lack of motivation is from the eexcuses they are feed. Let me ask you something. If someone kept saying for all your life that your life (sic) that you will never be anything, because the blue eyed people rule the world, and you brown eyed people have been so persecuted for so long, wouldn't you give up hope too?

yes, yes I would...I think you just proved my point. That's exactly the culture they live in. Black folks in this country are made to feel inferior through the system they're in. You yourself admit that this is extremely disenhearting, but you seem to suggest that they just do it to THEMSELVES. Once again you refuse to recognize that it is the SYTEM ITSELF that tells them "you're inferior, you're worthless, you will never have power, you will never be a success", it's the entire process that is built on white power structures.

Not only does the system make them feel worthless, it's designed specifically TO do that, the system is BUILT on that. Of course they're going to give up hope, the lot of them.

You talk about the civil rights movement, let's talk about it. Here was a group of people that got up, not too long ago, in living memory, and said "we are equal to you". And what happened to them? They got arrested, they got the dogs sent after them, they got fire hoses turned on them.

in some cases they got shot.

And you utterly fail to recognize this. You fail to recognize the cumulative effects of being raised in a society, having your parents raised in a society, having THEIR parents raised in a society, that tells you EVERY SINGLE DAY "you are worthless". And you fail to recognize that what affirmative action seeks to do is to correct that.

Im really getting fed up with you about now,

Oh? I got fed up with you a long time ago. Haven't you been able to tell?

but I'll be nice. Would please explain to me how white people have it easier, when programs like AA give minorities an easier route to success?

Lingering racism (manifesting itself in labor market discrimination, implicitly racist public policy decisions, double standards in the criminal justice system, white flight, etc.) and the lingering consequences of past racism (manifesting itself in the socioeconomic deprivation, especially in terms of real wealth, felt by many minorities, which also strengthens current racist tendencies.)

And isn't AA making it seem like blacks are incapable of moving up on their own? Isn't that what its all abut? I think so.

I've told you a dozen times in this thread what affirmative action is about. I see no point in repeating myself - again.

Do you believe that being white does not grant certain benefits just from being white?

Do you honestly believe that is not true?

As I said awhile ago, in accordance with my faith, and beliefs, no one is better than the next person. We are all equal in God's eyes.



If you are under the impression that welfare provides anything even CLOSE to a liveable income, and that it's not conditional on one's ability to work, and one's attempt to find employment, you are sadly mistaken.

The fact is you don't know a THING about what you're talking about, and are under this dillusion that black babies are pulled into a special room when they're children and told "don't worry, you don't have to do any work in your life, we'll take care of you, the check's in the mail. And by the way when you hit 17 do you want to go to Harvard, Yale, Wesleyan or MIT? Don't worry about getting you in, we'll just bump some kid for idaho."

I'm fully convinced you really think that being black and poor in this country is like that.

I have seen people on welfare drive brand new escalades, while chatting on new razr phones, and all that jib jab. And Im not saying they are going to get into Yale or something. Im saying because of AA, they are given an unfair advantage though.

Now tell me, have you ever actually lived in a black community? Lived with black people? If not, then please shut the hell up about what I do or do not know about that community. Its only been in the last 3 yrs that i have lived in a predominantly white area, so I think i have experience in this field, bub.

Im really getting fed up with you about now, but I'll be nice. Would please explain to me how white people have it easier, when programs like AA give minorities an easier route to success?

Because they are in a society that is built on privlidge to white power base.

You don't seem to understand that.


Let me create an illustration for you. You have two race cars. One has a history of winning many races, while the other has struggled in the past. However, due to a new rule in the racing league, both are giving equal monies to upgrade(civil rights acts) their motors and cars, would it be fair to give the second car a headstart, and shorcuts, while throwing obstacles at the first car? Or would it be fair to let both start at the same time, doing the same track, and letting the better driver win?

Would it be fair to do that in your situation? No.

What you miss is the fact that the first car started the race ahead simply because it was the white car.

You absolutly totally refuse to believe that being white in this society automatically gives you advantages JUST because you are white.

You just don't see that. And because you don't see that you won't understand the argument.

As I said awhile ago, in accordance with my faith, and beliefs, no one is better than the next person. We are all equal in God's eyes.

Unfortunately, God does not control this country.

Rich white people do.

Im really getting fed up with you about now, but I'll be nice. Would please explain to me how white people have it easier, when programs like AA give minorities an easier route to success?

Let me let you in on a little secret. AA doesn't do an awful lot for minorities. It did back when it was first instituted, but these days? Doesn't do shit, comparatively speaking.

But let's go back a bit, because you obviously ignored a post I made back a ways. I posted a link to a description of a study done in 2003 that took four groups of men, trained them to answer questions similarly, gave them similar resumes, and sent them out to apply for the same jobs. Two groups were white men, one group with fictitious prison records, one without, and two groups were black men in the same circumstances. The group most likely to get called back for a second interview was white men with no record. Not a surprise, really, the study said. But why is that not a surprise? Because we've so internalized racism that we expect it.

The thing the people doing the study found surprising was that more white men with records were called back than black men without records.

Now--do you want to rethink your question about how white people have it easier? Because right about now, it's making you look awful dumb.

As I said awhile ago, in accordance with my faith, and beliefs, no one is better than the next person. We are all equal in God's eyes.

I didn't ask about your faith. I didn't ask about your beliefs. I didn't ask about what you think god said.

I asked you whether or not white people in this society have an advantage over other groups simply because they are white.

I don't want to know if it's right, or just, or proper, or moral, or ethical. I ask only if it is true.

I don't give a damn about your faith. What I am asking is, all other things being equal do you believe that white people have an advantage over other simply because they are white? Yes or no?

Because they are in a society that is built on privlidge to white power base.

You don't seem to understand that.

You can bet your ass he'll benefit from it, though, and the whole time he'll be talking about how the lazy black folk just can't seem to get their shit together, even though they've got all the advantages.

Im really getting fed up with you about now, but I'll be nice. Would please explain to me how white people have it easier, when programs like AA give minorities an easier route to success?

Let me create an illustration for you. You have two race cars. One has a history of winning many races, while the other has struggled in the past. However, due to a new rule in the racing league, both are giving equal monies to upgrade(civil rights acts) their motors and cars, would it be fair to give the second car a headstart, and shorcuts, while throwing obstacles at the first car? Or would it be fair to let both start at the same time, doing the same track, and letting the better driver win?

Having both cars "doing the same track" is the whole point of affirmative action. At the moment, the black car is stuck racing on a bumpy, pothole-laden road while the white car has a significantly cushier ride. Racism and the problems it has caused aren't all in the past, as you seem to believe. Heck, a famous study (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293/pg_1) was done in 2003 which showed that, given resumes for two equally-qualified applicants for a job, applicants with traditionally "white" names were a full 50% more likely to be invited to an interview as applicants with traditionally "black" names. That's not 150 years ago, that's now, today, in our theoretically egalitarian society.

Oh? I got fed up with you a long time ago. Haven't you been able to tell?



Lingering racism (manifesting itself in labor market discrimination, implicitly racist public policy decisions, double standards in the criminal justice system, white flight, etc.) and the lingering consequences of past racism (manifesting itself in the socioeconomic deprivation, especially in terms of real wealth, felt by many minorities, which also strengthens current racist tendencies.)

I can honestly say that there are 2 types of people in the nation that beleive that racism still exists to the extent you are talking about. 1)Those dilusional right wingers that think that blacks are inferior and all of america wants them out or 2) People like you that more then likely have not had any personally experience in an african community, and read about how much blacks are being held down by the evil white man, in very liberal journals and magazines.

Im not denying that racism doesn't exist. it does, and its a horrid thing. Its just not to the extent that blacks can't rise up and succeed because of it.

Because they are in a society that is built on privlidge to white power base.

You don't seem to understand that.




Would it be fair to do that in your situation? No.

What you miss is the fact that the first car started the race ahead simply because it was the white car.

You absolutly totally refuse to believe that being white in this society automatically gives you advantages JUST because you are white.

You just don't see that. And because you don't see that you won't understand the argument.
And what people like you seem to not understand is that this is a new race track. It has been since the civil and equal rights laws. When they came about, we started a new race, but you still seem to think we are continuing the previouos race, and thus nothing has changed, and they shold be give more privelages than whites.

I can honestly say that there are 2 types of people in the nation that beleive that racism still exists to the extent you are talking about. 1)Those dilusional right wingers that think that blacks are inferior and all of america wants them out or 2) People like you that more then likely have not had any personally experience in an african community, and read about how much blacks are being held down by the evil white man, in very liberal journals and magazines.

Im not denying that racism doesn't exist. it does, and its a horrid thing. Its just not to the extent that blacks can't rise up and succeed because of it.

Oh my god you're almost there, you're SO CLOSE to understanding it. Maybe I'll walk you through it, step by step.

1) racism creates a disadvantage

2) if you are at a disadvantage you are less likely to be able to get a good education, and go to a good college, and get a good job

3) this means things aren't equal

You seem to be under the impression that affirmative action makes things BETTER for blacks in this country, that it makes it EASIER to get a good education if you're black than if you're white.

It doesn't, it's absolutly not true. All it does is try, TRY, to make it equally the same. You talk about how it's "so unfair that your hopes and dreams are put aside because of some black kid".

Is it fair that that black kid is put at a disadvantage because he's black? The simply fact is, I'm really beginning to wonder if the reason you're against it is if that if some groups were actually given a fair chance, you might find yourself suddenly unable to compete.

I can honestly say that there are 2 types of people in the nation that beleive that racism still exists to the extent you are talking about. 1)Those dilusional right wingers that think that blacks are inferior and all of america wants them out or 2) People like you that more then likely have not had any personally experience in an african community, and read about how much blacks are being held down by the evil white man, in very liberal journals and magazines.

Im not denying that racism doesn't exist. it does, and its a horrid thing. Its just not to the extent that blacks can't rise up and succeed because of it.

Please. I grew up in the south, and attended minority-majority schools from the time I was in fourth grade until I finished my BA. Don't even try to play that "you don't know black people" crap. Even my church growing up was majority black. So don't act like you've got some experience that no one else has had. You're a bigot--you've proven it time and again in this thread--and you're the worst kind, because you're condescending toward those you're bigoted against. At least with an out-and-out racist you know where you stand.

There's hope for you, but based on that signature of yours, I doubt you'll even recognize that you have a problem--that statement about Muslims is oozing with condescension as well.

Well, i still dont see anything different. All i see is an argument for socialism. All of this seems (nowadays) to be based off of the fact that america is a capitalist country, and whoever works harder gets farther. We are all supposed to be about equality and tolerance, but how can that exist? Is this world ever going to be perfect? No. It is impossible to make things perfect. Things degrade as time goes by. Nuclear energy. A Desk. Food. An argumentEven the Roman Empire. They all degraded as time went by, and eventually all collapsed, blew out of control, or decomposed. I'm not arguing for or against it, though i am leaning against it. I'm simply trying to state that the world will never be perfect. It only gets worse. Those who expect things to get better (not that any of those posted think that) are ignorant fools. Anyways, just my observations.

And what people like you seem to not understand is that this is a new race track. It has been since the civil and equal rights laws. When they came about, we started a new race, but you still seem to think we are continuing the previouos race, and thus nothing has changed, and they shold be give more privelages than whites.
Twice now I have referenced a study done in 2003 that shows attitudes toward hiring minorities have not significantly changed, and yet you come up with this bullshit?

And what people like you seem to not understand is that this is a new race track. It has been since the civil and equal rights laws. When they came about, we started a new race, but you still seem to think we are continuing the previouos race, and thus nothing has changed, and they shold be give more privelages than whites.

See this? This is where you're absolutly, totally, 100% wrong. You somehow believe that the civil rights movement came along and magically everything just...got better.

That's absolute bullshit, and there's not a serious social scientist in this country who would agree with that assertion in the SLIGHTEST.

You think the civil rights movement has done SHIT all about the employer that goes ahead and hires the white guy just because he's white? You think the civil rights movement has done shit about the college admission member who quietly slips an application into the trash because of the neighborhood or last name of the applicant? You think the civil rights movement has done SHIT about the fact that white families had more money, so they moved to different areas, leaving the inner city schools to be worse off, and predomenantly black populated, and because of the bad schoolings, it made success harder, causing the students to not be able to get good jobs or go to a good school, meaning THEIR children stayed in the inner city? You think the civil rights movement has done shit about the fact that these inner city schools, because of the level of poverty, and the resultant crime springing from that poverty, causes amazing resource churn and an extreme inability for those schools to actually keep ahold of good, quality teachers, who because they're good can get better pay, better hours, and safer work going to the white suburbs?

You think an institution built on protecting and privlidging the white power base to the extend that when MLK got up and spoke against it he got shot in the fucking face is going to give up the ghost and abandon that white privlidge just because some silly laws got passed?

You sir are dillusional.

There should never ever be ANY institutions based on race. EVER.

Now tell me, have you ever actually lived in a black community? Lived with black people? If not, then please shut the hell up about what I do or do not know about that community. Its only been in the last 3 yrs that i have lived in a predominantly white area, so I think i have experience in this field, bub.

East Hartford Juvenile Justice Center for Juvenile Offenders -Operations Assistant (1 year) and then promoted to Case Manager (2.5 years)

Try me.

There should never ever be ANY institutions based on race. EVER.

Private organizations should be able to form whatever institutions they please.

You can bet your ass he'll benefit from it, though, and the whole time he'll be talking about how the lazy black folk just can't seem to get their shit together, even though they've got all the advantages.

fine, i'll beat you for 400 years and see how you feel you piece of shit.

Private organizations should be able to form whatever institutions they please.

Negative. Total Negative.

fine, i'll beat you for 400 years and see how you feel you piece of shit.

the...hell?

Methinks you didn't read what you are replying to.

I didn't ask about your faith. I didn't ask about your beliefs. I didn't ask about what you think god said.

I asked you whether or not white people in this society have an advantage over other groups simply because they are white.

I don't want to know if it's right, or just, or proper, or moral, or ethical. I ask only if it is true.

I don't give a damn about your faith. What I am asking is, all other things being equal do you believe that white people have an advantage over other simply because they are white? Yes or no?

No, its not true.


You can bet your ass he'll benefit from it, though, and the whole time he'll be talking about how the lazy black folk just can't seem to get their shit together, even though they've got all the advantages.
Right, because I am benefiting from being white.:rolleyes: I have had to work my ass off all my life to get where I am at, and to be honest, its not even that great.
Having both cars "doing the same track" is the whole point of affirmative action. At the moment, the black car is stuck racing on a bumpy, pothole-laden road while the white car has a significantly cushier ride. Racism and the problems it has caused aren't all in the past, as you seem to believe. Heck, a famous study was done a while back which showed that, given resumes for two equally-qualified applicants for a job, applicants with traditionally "white" names were twice as likely to be invited to an interview as applicants with traditionally "black" names. That's not 150 years ago, that's now, today, in our theoretically egalitarian society.
Can I see that study?
Let me let you in on a little secret. AA doesn't do an awful lot for minorities. It did back when it was first instituted, but these days? Doesn't do shit, comparatively speaking.

But let's go back a bit, because you obviously ignored a post I made back a ways. I posted a link to a description of a study done in 2003 that took four groups of men, trained them to answer questions similarly, gave them similar resumes, and sent them out to apply for the same jobs. Two groups were white men, one group with fictitious prison records, one without, and two groups were black men in the same circumstances. The group most likely to get called back for a second interview was white men with no record. Not a surprise, really, the study said. But why is that not a surprise? Because we've so internalized racism that we expect it.

The thing the people doing the study found surprising was that more white men with records were called back than black men without records.

Now--do you want to rethink your question about how white people have it easier? Because right about now, it's making you look awful dumb.

As I said, racism does occur, I am not ignoring that. What I am saying is why should I not get special treatment because of my racial/ethnic backgrounds, because I am sure at some point "my people" were "held down' in history.

ANd a lightbulb just hit me.. Ok, I see your point now. And in a case like that, I can see a need for intervention through court means, for discrimination or something, however, this isn't a widespread pandemic, right? So why punish all white men, because a few employers wouldn't hire black men over white men?

I agree with you all for the most part, I want to see all these barriers gone. I want a color blind society. I want everyone to be free and equal. Its just that i feel that giving people a wheelchair, when they can walk perfectly fine, is a mistake, because who would want to walk anymore, if you could just roll around?

fine, i'll beat you for 400 years and see how you feel you piece of shit.

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not the one saying that. Go back and read the posts I was referring to. Then apologize.

Negative. Total Negative.

so you would presume to tell a private entity whom they should allow to enter into their ranks?

Congratulations, you've just violated the right of free association. if I want to form a club, or a social group, or a university, and i want to allow only white cristian men whose first name is "bob" and whose last name begins with a Q I may do so, it is my right.

It is my PRIVATE organization and I may allow in, or exclude, whomever I want. If it's MINE I don't have to let ANYONE in whom I don't WANT to let in.

Yes, and you are wrong. What happened two hundred years ago is already said and done. It has no effect now. Do africans, women, and other minorities not have equal rights laws protecting them?

So why then are we giving them added leverage, and hurting white men? Its not fair to us.

When did you, as a white male, become an expert on whether the events of the past continue to effect us as black men---or any other minority, for that matter? I can't speak to what rights "africans" have, as they are not residents of the United States. Different continent.

I know what you meant, and I know what you said. Words mean something.

As far as "you" giving "us" anything, think again. You aren't providing anything to us personally. To the extent you see yourself as a disaffected class, try trading places with black men just for a month. Then associate yourself with white men who think as you do.

I forgot----your best friend is black, and as a result he has had positive influences on his life. Thanks for that, by the way.

There's a book you should read. It's called "Black Like Me" by John Howard Griffin. He's a white author who actually took the time to experience life as a black man (to the extent he could.) If you don't have time to actually read the book, look for the movie starring James Whitmore. It's close to what Griffin wrote in his novel.

Then consider the private conversations you and other white men have on this issue. Then come back and post an honest comment.

East Hartford Juvenile Justice Center for Juvenile Offenders -Operations Assistant (1 year) and then promoted to Case Manager (2.5 years)

Try me.

I asked if you lived in a black community, in your position you are bound to see more dramatically negative results.

Well, i still dont see anything different. All i see is an argument for socialism. All of this seems (nowadays) to be based off of the fact that america is a capitalist country, and whoever works harder gets farther. We are all supposed to be about equality and tolerance, but how can that exist? Is this world ever going to be perfect? No. It is impossible to make things perfect. Things degrade as time goes by. Nuclear energy. A Desk. Food. An argumentEven the Roman Empire. They all degraded as time went by, and eventually all collapsed, blew out of control, or decomposed. I'm not arguing for or against it, though i am leaning against it. I'm simply trying to state that the world will never be perfect. It only gets worse. Those who expect things to get better (not that any of those posted think that) are ignorant fools. Anyways, just my observations.

Damn f***ing right dude. Socialism or even communism. It is much more than the competetion of two nations, two races, or even two gods, this gentlemen, is the essence of Class Struggle.

No, its not true.


Everything that follows this, your whole argument in fact, is based on the belief, absolutly misinformed as it is, that being white in this society doesn't automatically make things easier.

You talk about how hard your life was without realizing that if you were born black, it would have been even harder. You suffere from the dillusion that one is not given an advantage simply by being white, even though you admit racism exists.

Since your entire argument is based on an absolutly false premise, you will never understand, and continuing this discussion with you is absolutly pointless.

so you would presume to tell a private entity whom they should allow to enter into their ranks?

Congratulations, you've just violated the right of free association. if I want to form a club, or a social group, or a university, and i want to allow only white cristian men whose first name is "bob" and whose last name begins with a Q I may do so, it is my right.

It is my PRIVATE organization and I may allow in, or exclude, whomever I want. If it's MINE I don't have to let ANYONE in whom I don't WANT to let in.


And if that private group gives the white men a unfair advantage, then its racist, discriminatory, and the gov't should control it, right?

so you would presume to tell a private entity whom they should allow to enter into their ranks?

Congratulations, you've just violated the right of free association. if I want to form a club, or a social group, or a university, and i want to allow only white cristian men whose first name is "bob" and whose last name begins with a Q I may do so, it is my right.

It is my PRIVATE organization and I may allow in, or exclude, whomever I want. If it's MINE I don't have to let ANYONE in whom I don't WANT to let in.

Congrats, you just formed a hate group, bent on the oppression of others.


Selfish Capitalist Pig.

however, this isn't a widespread pandemic, right?

Labor market discrimination? Yes, yes it is.

I asked if you lived in a black community, in your position you are bound to see more dramatically negative results.

Quite correct, I saw it all. The dregs of the society. The bottom of the bottom, the abusers, the rapists, the drug pushers...the abused, the raped, the assaulted, the addicted by choice, the addicted by the womb.

I saw it all.

Guess how many were white.

the...hell?

Methinks you didn't read what you are replying to.

I directed that at The Nazz, not you, sorry for any misconseption.

And if that private group gives the white men a unfair advantage, then its racist, discriminatory, and the gov't should control it, right?

as long as that group did not violate any law, then it is private, and can do whatever it wishes to do.

There are two kinds of affirmative action. Affirmative action in public schools, and in private. The private can do whatever the hell they want to, it's in the public school where the situation is questionable.

When did you, as a white male, become an expert on whether the events of the past continue to effect us as black men---or any other minority, for that matter? I can't speak to what rights "africans" have, as they are not residents of the United States. Different continent.

I know what you meant, and I know what you said. Words mean something.

As far as "you" giving "us" anything, think again. You aren't providing anything to us personally. To the extent you see yourself as a disaffected class, try trading places with black men just for a month. Then associate yourself with white men who think as you do.

I forgot----your best friend is black, and as a result he has had positive influences on his life. Thanks for that, by the way.

There's a book you should read. It's called "Black Like Me" by John Howard Griffin. He's a white author who actually took the time to experience life as a black man (to the extent he could.) If you don't have time to actually read the book, look for the movie starring James Whitmore. It's close to what Griffin wrote in his novel.

Then consider the private conversations you and other white men have on this issue. Then come back and post an honest comment.


And because you are black you are the ultimate authority on the issue? What if I can get a black that disagrees with AA? Does that bring any more credibility to my opinion?

I directed that at The Nazz, not you, sorry for any misconseption.

I know...the nazz is the last person you should direct that too, as I said, I think what he said and what you think he said aren't the same thing.

Private organizations should be able to form whatever institutions they please.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "private."

I think clubs, parties, and so on should be permitted to be as racist as the members want them to be, but institutions that play a significant economic role - universities and companies, for instance - have enough of a public role that there is good reason for the state to prevent them from discriminating.

Congrats, you just formed a hate group, bent on the oppression of others.


Yes, yes I did. And you know what? It's my right, and doesn't violate any laws. Private organizations have the right of freedom of association, they do not have to associate with anyone they do not wish to.

A private organization may restrict its membership in any way it choses to, that's what it means to be private.

Can I see that study?


Yup. I went looking for articles about it immediately after posting, and edited in a link right about the moment you were asking for it. Here it is again, if you don't feel like going back a page:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293/pg_1.

I know...the nazz is the last person you should direct that too, as I said, I think what he said and what you think he said aren't the same thing.

uh, well ok, shits really hittin the fan in here anyway. judgeing by whatelse he said I'll apologize, :)

Well, it depends on what you mean by "private."

I think clubs, parties, and so on should be permitted to be as racist as the members want them to be, but institutions that play a significant economic role - universities and companies, for instance - have enough of a public role that there is good reason for the state to prevent them from discriminating.

companies are different because they have a direct public role. They produce a good/service provided "to the public", and as such they provide a public service.

A university..doesn't. It provides only a service to its members, and they may restrict which members receive that service to whatever extent they want. They just can't get one cent of government funds to do so however.

Labor market discrimination? Yes, yes it is.

Bullshit. I want to see proof for that. I want to see how many people actually tried to get a job and didn't get based on their color vs based on qualifications or other factors

Everything that follows this, your whole argument in fact, is based on the belief, absolutly misinformed as it is, that being white in this society doesn't automatically make things easier.

You talk about how hard your life was without realizing that if you were born black, it would have been even harder. You suffere from the dillusion that one is not given an advantage simply by being white, even though you admit racism exists.

Since your entire argument is based on an absolutly false premise, you will never understand, and continuing this discussion with you is absolutly pointless.

Racism does exist. Racism againsts whites, blacks, asians, whoever. Its not limited to a certain group, but as I said there should be none at..But we don't live in a perfect society. Now, i have never recieved any advantages in my life because I am white, if you want to argue with that, I can write you a damned autobiography, and you can disprove that claim.

Quite correct, I saw it all. The dregs of the society. The bottom of the bottom, the abusers, the rapists, the drug pushers...the abused, the raped, the assaulted, the addicted by choice, the addicted by the womb.

I saw it all.

Guess how many were white.

42?:p

I have no clue?

A university..doesn't. It provides only a service to its members,

Yeah, and a company only provides a service to those who buy its goods and those who it employs.

In both cases, those are members of the public.

What's the difference?

companies are different because they have a direct public role. They produce a good/service provided "to the public", and as such they provide a public service.

A university..doesn't. It provides only a service to its members, and they may restrict which members receive that service to whatever extent they want. They just can't get one cent of government funds to do so however.
Yep. There was a big flap a while back when a certain Senator tried to get an exception to that rule thrown in for Bob Jones University. I think Bob Jones wound up changing their rules in order to get at that federal cash.

Now, i have never recieved any advantages in my life because I am white

Not indiscretely. Nobody said "i'm hiring you over the other guy because he's black". Nobody told you "I'm giving you a little slack, because your'e white'. Nobody ever said "you are gaining some advantage over another because of the colors of your skins", no.

And in fact, maybe TO YOU, that never did happen. But to believe it doesn't happen, and doesn't happen with disgusting regularity, is to be intentionally, willfully blind.

Yes, yes I did. And you know what? It's my right, and doesn't violate any laws. Private organizations have the right of freedom of association, they do not have to associate with anyone they do not wish to.

A private organization may restrict its membership in any way it choses to, that's what it means to be private.

To the point where it goes so far as to harm the rights of others? To the point where its gets powerful enough to act on what it says without retribution? or resistance?

There is a "right" of privacy in the constitution, no its not written explictly but is implied, however if any of your rights is taken to far to harm the life or well-being of anyone else then you are breaking your rights.

Yup. I went looking for articles about it immediately after posting, and edited in a link right about the moment you were asking for it. Here it is again, if you don't feel like going back a page:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293/pg_1.

White and black sounding names? Thats a little bit unscientific. I could have the name Zilam IRL, and i be white or black and they could over look me, because its just a wierd name :p.. But I can't really trust a study that uses something subjective like white and black sounding names, as smething of proof.

And because you are black you are the ultimate authority on the issue? What if I can get a black that disagrees with AA? Does that bring any more credibility to my opinion?

I'm more of an authority of the events that effect me, my sons and other black men, Zilam. As far as finding minorities who disagree with AA, you'll find plenty. I'm one of them. My disagreement is with your premise for why AA is ineffective.

You make assumptions about how blacks fare in the US that are simply untrue. To the extent we succeed, it is very often IN SPITE OF the obstacles placed before us. I can cite you example after example of what I experienced from middle school to law school and beyond, but it is necessarily anecdotal. The odd thing is that many black men have experienced very similar things at the hands of leaders in both the private and public sector.

We can't all be making it up or over-reacting, can we?

The major difference, Zilam, is that I don't presume to tell you what your experience as a white male is or is not. I know your history because it's taught to us as part of mainstream education, and is passed down from generation to generation in my family. But that is not the same as understanding the dynamics affecting whites.

What makes you presume to be in a position to comment about the lives of black men? It is condescending and insulting----notwithstanding the anecdotal information your "black friend" may have provided you.

That is my problem with your commentary, Zilam. Speak to what you know, and don't presume to speak about my experiences without experiencing them first hand.

Bullshit. I want to see proof for that.

The Nazz just provided a study. I advise you to read his link.

For a decent historical account of this and other questions, I would suggest Whitewashing Race: The Myth of a Colorblind Society, by seven different authors.

Not indiscretely. Nobody said "i'm hiring you over the other guy because he's black". Nobody told you "I'm giving you a little slack, because your'e white'. Nobody ever said "you are gaining some advantage over another because of the colors of your skins", no.

And in fact, maybe TO YOU, that never did happen. But to believe it doesn't happen, and doesn't happen with disgusting regularity, is to be intentionally, willfully blind.

Well maybe if I were from a higher economicclass, i'd be able to some of these "white" benefits.

Yeah, and a company only provides a service to those who buy its goods and those who it employs.

In both cases, those are members of the public.

What's the difference?

to be flippant? The college isn't on the shelves.

To be more explanatory, when a company puts its product "out there" it can not restrict those who take use of it, provided they can afford it. By placing the product on the selves the company places its product into the stream of commerce, where it may be picked up by anyone.

They operate on different principles. A company puts out its good or service to the public and says "please buy me". A college on the other hand, the public comes to THEM and says "please let me in".

Because the company willingly put the product on the shelves it put itself into the public stream of commerce, and in doing so has a duty to the public. A university or other similar situation doesn't do that, it waits for applications to come to them.

Not indiscretely. Nobody said "i'm hiring you over the other guy because he's black". Nobody told you "I'm giving you a little slack, because your'e white'. Nobody ever said "you are gaining some advantage over another because of the colors of your skins", no.

And in fact, maybe TO YOU, that never did happen. But to believe it doesn't happen, and doesn't happen with disgusting regularity, is to be intentionally, willfully blind.

well, indirectly it very well probably happened to him, because his it most likley happened to his father (if he even knows his father in this day and age) and definetly his grandfather and beforehand that he now this day has aquired wealth and is better off than most minorities because his family history has been helped out by being white.

I'm more of an authority of the events that effect me, my sons and other black men, Zilam. As far as finding minorities who disagree with AA, you'll find plenty. I'm one of them. My disagreement is with your premise for why AA is ineffective.

You make assumptions about how blacks fare in the US that are simply untrue. To the extent we succeed, it is very often IN SPITE OF the obstacles placed before us. I can cite you example after example of what I experienced from middle school to law school and beyond, but it is necessarily anecdotal. The odd thing is that many black men have experienced very similar things at the hands of leaders in both the private and public sector.

We can't all be making it up or over-reacting, can we?

The major difference, Zilam, is that I don't presume to tell you what your experience as a white male is or is not. I know your history because it's taught to us as part of mainstream education, and is passed down from generation to generation in my family. But that is not the same as understanding the dynamics affecting whites.

What makes you presume to be in a position to comment about the lives of black men? It is condescending and insulting----notwithstanding the anecdotal information your "black friend" may have provided you.

That is my problem with your commentary, Zilam. Speak to what you know, and don't presume to speak about my experiences without experiencing them first hand.
I am speaking from what I know. All I have known in my life is poverty and working hard to struggle and survive, while at the same time seeing one black neighbor being on foodstamps and driving an escalade, while another one, a school counselor, live a very successful and prosperous life.

to be flippant? The college isn't on the shelves.

To be more explanatory, when a company puts its product "out there" it can not restrict those who take use of it, provided they can afford it. By placing the product on the selves the company places its product into the stream of commerce, where it may be picked up by anyone.

They operate on different principles. A company puts out its good or service to the public and says "please buy me". A college on the other hand, the public comes to THEM and says "please let me in".

Because the company willingly put the product on the shelves it put itself into the public stream of commerce, and in doing so has a duty to the public. A university or other similar situation doesn't do that, it waits for applications to come to them.

And what about discrimination in hiring?

Well maybe if I were from a higher economicclass, i'd be able to some of these "white" benefits.

If you're intentionally missing the point, Zilam, that is a shame. I'm going to chalk this up to simply being inexperienced. You're confusing "race" (whatever that means) and "class."

One issue at a time, please.

To the point where it goes so far as to harm the rights of others? To the point where its gets powerful enough to act on what it says without retribution? or resistance?

There is a "right" of privacy in the constitution, no its not written explictly but is implied, however if any of your rights is taken to far to harm the life or well-being of anyone else then you are breaking your rights.

By definition a private entity can not violate your constitutional rights, the constitution defines only limits imposed upon the government.

I as an individual can not violate your constitutional rights, the constitutional amendments deal only with what the government can and can not do.

I may violate the LAW, but I can not, as a private entity, violate the constitution, it's impossible. I can not violate your constitutional rights as your constitutional rights only exist in relation to what the government can, or can not do to you.

Well maybe if I were from a higher economicclass, i'd be able to some of these "white" benefits.

Hey man, lots of broke-ass white folks out there, no question. But we're not broke because AA is putting other people ahead of us. We're broke because our economic system favors the haves way more than at any other time in recent history. Right now in the US, if you're not rich, it's unlikely that you ever will be. Class mobility is at a low point, especially when compared to Europe and more socialist economies. The rich get richer and everyone else gets fucked.

Back to the name and application comment, if its a big problem, then why not use nameless applications? I think that would be far better than any AA program, just because it would be based soley on merit.

And what about discrimination in hiring?

that's different. Their employees are not "members". A private entity has the right to determine who may, or may not, join the organization, but its employers are not necessarily members.

Hey man, lots of broke-ass white folks out there, no question. But we're not broke because AA is putting other people ahead of us. We're broke because our economic system favors the haves way more than at any other time in recent history. Right now in the US, if you're not rich, it's unlikely that you ever will be. Class mobility is at a low point, especially when compared to Europe and more socialist economies. The rich get richer and everyone else gets fucked.

Well the way I am readin arguments is that because I am white, and thus I should be making big bucks because I am white, or I should at least have a better chance. But I see no chance for than anytime soon. :(

I am speaking from what I know. All I have known in my life is poverty and working hard to struggle and survive, while at the same time seeing one black neighbor being on foodstamps and driving an escalade, while another one, a school counselor, live a very successful and prosperous life.

You can't learn the "black experience" by osmosis, Zilam. Your benefit-cheating neigbhor is not representative of black society in general. Are you typical of white society, Zilam? Hardly.

So why presume your neighbor is representative of me or any other black? This is why no decent, respectful dialogue can ever occur on this issue. How about not making generalizations based on your claimed experiences with certain blacks and address what is really occuring?

It's funny, incidentally, how whites who complain about AA always have an example of a "black I know who's getting welfare and driving an expensive car."

Let me know where I can get the food stamps and the Escalade. I sure must have missed that memo.

that's different. Their employees are not "members". A private entity has the right to determine who may, or may not, join the organization, but its employers are not necessarily members.

Well, if you're going to appeal to free association, aren't the people an employer is going to associate with on a regular basis (her employees) relevant?

that's different. Their employees are not "members". A private entity has the right to determine who may, or may not, join the organization, but its employers are not necessarily members.


Well employees technically are members. They are part of a group with a common goal and intrest, are they not?

You can't learn the "black experience" by osmosis, Zilam. Your benefit-cheating neigbhor is not representative of black society in general. Are you typical of white society, Zilam? Hardly.

So why presume your neighbor is representative of me or any other black? This is why no decent, respectful dialogue can ever occur on this issue. How about not making generalizations based on your claimed experiences with certain blacks and address what is really occuring?

It's funny, incidentally, how whites who complain about AA always have an example of a "black I know who's getting welfare and driving an expensive car."

Let me know where I can get the food stamps and the Escalade. I sure must have missed that memo.

Hey, if you want to see it in action, come to Mt. Vernon, Illinois. I'll gladly take you on a tour and show you what I mean.

White and black sounding names? Thats a little bit unscientific. I could have the name Zilam IRL, and i be white or black and they could over look me, because its just a wierd name :p.. But I can't really trust a study that uses something subjective like white and black sounding names, as smething of proof.

Oh, come on. If I told you my name was Tamiqua Jordan, you would picture a different person than if I told you my name was Ingrid Eriksen, who would in turn conjure up a different image than Esther Cohen, who would look rather different from Conception Vasquez. The fact that you are attempting to pretend otherwise suggests that, rather than simply being well-meaning but naive, you are wilfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts your absurd claim that black people have it easier than white people.

Hey, if you want to see it in action, come to Mt. Vernon, Illinois. I'll gladly take you on a tour and show you what I mean.

Even if true, how does this apply to blacks in general? You are using this as your basis (in part) for attacking perceived inequities in AA, right? And what does welfare fraud have to do with AA programs?

Well the way I am readin arguments is that because I am white, and thus I should be making big bucks because I am white, or I should at least have a better chance. But I see no chance for than anytime soon. :(

because you chose to ignore the basic premise.

It's not "all white people are rich all black are poor"

It's not "white people will always do better than black people".

It's not "a white person will be more successful than an equally intelligent black person".

It's not even "every white person automatically has a better chance than a black person"

All it is, ALL IT IS, is to say "in general, ON AVERAGE, a white person will be more successful than a black person, will make more money, will be more healthy, will have better benefits, will be less likely to be arrested, will be less likely to be raised by a single parent, be less likely to raise a child by him/herself, and will be more likely to live longer"

That's it, ON AVERAGE this is ALL TRUE. It doesn't mean it happens to EACH AND EVERY PERSON, that's not what an AVERAGE means. Exceptions to that average occur, but you look at yourself and go "well I didn't gain anything from being white (even though honestly you have no way of knowing what advantage you may have gained that you mgiht not have were you not black) so this must not be true!".

it's not true for everyone, that's the point. It is merely true on average.

Well employees technically are members. They are part of a group with a common goal and intrest, are they not?

no, that's the point, an employee is not a member. A "member" of a university is the student at that university. Its employees are not.

They are not part of the group, and they need not have the same common goal or interest. Employees are merely those employed and paid by a group that promotes a particular goal. The employee works for an organization which promotes a goal, the employee need not promote that goal him/herself.

There is a very fundamental difference between "member" and "employee" Employees are paid to manage the organization, they need not be aware of, understand, or even agree with the goals of that organization, they merely need to do their job for it.

Well, if you're going to appeal to free association, aren't the people an employer is going to associate with on a regular basis (her employees) relevant?

no, because once again it becomes the order of things. One who hires again attracts TO the public, it says "come work for me". You may have the right of free association, to say "I don't want to be with you", but you don't have to form a group that needs employees.

Again it's the public/private dichodemy. Does the public come to you, or do you go to the public?

Even if true, how does this apply to blacks in general? You are using this as your basis (in part) for attacking perceived inequities in AA, right? And what does welfare fraud have to do with AA programs? I was trying to make a connection about how many black people are getting easy rides through life, through either program, or both. I think.(Its too late for me to think straight anymore:p )



because you chose to ignore the basic premise.

It's not "all white people are rich all black are poor"

It's not "white people will always do better than black people".

It's not "a white person will be more successful than an equally intelligent black person".

It's not even "every white person automatically has a better chance than a black person"

All it is, ALL IT IS, is to say "in general, ON AVERAGE, a white person will be more successful than a black person, will make more money, will be more healthy, will have better benefits, will be less likely to be arrested, will be less likely to be raised by a single parent, be less likely to raise a child by him/herself, and will be more likely to live longer"

That's it, ON AVERAGE this is ALL TRUE. It doesn't mean it happens to EACH AND EVERY PERSON, that's not what an AVERAGE means. Exceptions to that average occur, but you look at yourself and go "well I didn't gain anything from being white (even though honestly you have no way of knowing what advantage you may have gained that you mgiht not have were you not black) so this must not be true!".

it's not true for everyone, that's the point. It is merely true on average.

Meh, I s'pose you're right then.

Well boys and gals, i have to go finish my sermon for tommorrow, which amazingly enough is in a predominantly black church :p. Night Night everyone! -waves-

The simple fact is that as I said, minorities in america make up a disproportionate number of single familiers, single parents, convicted felons, and those living below the poverty line. They also have far less than proportionate numbers of people who are the highest income professions such as business leaders, doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors, accountants and the like.

Now as a capitalist society we of course recognize there HAS to be some poor people, but we have to ask WHY are the poor people so predomenantly non white? And the answer that keeps coming back over and over again is that it's the legacy of slavery, of Jim Crow, of segregation, of blatant, overt racism.

And we recognize that one group having a far lower income on average, a higher crime rate on average, more drug use on average is a bad thing, and once we recognize WHY it is, we have to recognize HOW do we fix it? How do we break this cycle of poverty and dispare?

And again, time and time again one answer comes out above all else.

Education.

Those who are educated on average make more money, live more healthy lives, commit less crime, live longer, are more productive to society and are generally happier. Educated people have the ability to move out of the inner city, to make their lives better. And beyond that, more important than that, the most important thing of it all...people with good education have children who get good education. Education, above all else, is the solution to poverty, is the solution to it all.

But, while everyone may have equal access under law, in reality this is quite different. In reality all those factors make it harder to get to college, and harder to graduate.

That is exactly what affirmative action is about , not about putting anyone AHEAD, but helping them be on equal footing.

And I think that's what people are subconsiously really afraid of. If we recognize that the goal of AA is, ultimitly, inequality, and we recognize that currently minorities make up a disproportionate amount of poor people, and that if they get educated, this will star tto disappear and we'll see less equality among the income brackets, then this can only mean one thing.

If minorities start increasing their wealth, and are no longer making up a disproportionate amount of the urban poor, we're gonna start seeing a lot more poor white folks. If white and minorities actually, in time, had to compete on an equal footing instead of being at the atvantage they are just by being white, then the white folks might actually start losing, and some are afraid of all hell at that.

The simple fact is that as I said, minorities in america make up a disproportionate number of single familiers, single parents, convicted felons, and those living below the poverty line. They also have far less than proportionate numbers of people who are the highest income professions such as business leaders, doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors, accountants and the like.

Now as a capitalist society we of course recognize there HAS to be some poor people, but we have to ask WHY are the poor people so predomenantly non white? And the answer that keeps coming back over and over again is that it's the legacy of slavery, of Jim Crow, of segregation, of blatant, overt racism.

And we recognize that one group having a far lower income on average, a higher crime rate on average, more drug use on average is a bad thing, and once we recognize WHY it is, we have to recognize HOW do we fix it? How do we break this cycle of poverty and dispare?

And again, time and time again one answer comes out above all else.

Education.

Those who are educated on average make more money, live more healthy lives, commit less crime, live longer, are more productive to society and are generally happier. Educated people have the ability to move out of the inner city, to make their lives better. And beyond that, more important than that, the most important thing of it all...people with good education have children who get good education. Education, above all else, is the solution to poverty, is the solution to it all.

But, while everyone may have equal access under law, in reality this is quite different. In reality all those factors make it harder to get to college, and harder to graduate.

That is exactly what affirmative action is about , not about putting anyone AHEAD, but helping them be on equal footing.

And I think that's what people are subconsiously really afraid of. If we recognize that the goal of AA is, ultimitly, inequality, and we recognize that currently minorities make up a disproportionate amount of poor people, and that if they get educated, this will star tto disappear and we'll see less equality among the income brackets, then this can only mean one thing.

If minorities start increasing their wealth, and are no longer making up a disproportionate amount of the urban poor, we're gonna start seeing a lot more poor white folks. If white and minorities actually, in time, had to compete on an equal footing instead of being at the atvantage they are just by being white, then the white folks might actually start losing, and some are afraid of all hell at that.

hold on... you stated that affirmative action isn't about putting anyone ahead or on higher ground, but then you state the majority of the nation's poor are on lower ground, as you would refer to it, which would then lend to the majority of white people being on higher ground, no?

so youre saying that, because white people have an advantage over peoples of other colors, we should just start lending them a hand because our ancestors subjugated them?

so now the american dream follows that, if youre colored or a minority, you get a helping hand because of your skin color. what happened to EQUALITY? affirmative action affirms only that we give disproportionate rights to those that have "earned them" on basis of skin color. that is INEQUALITY due to the color of ones skin.

and i do believe thats what affirmative action is trying to dissolve, correct?

hold on... you stated that affirmative action isn't about putting anyone ahead or on higher ground, but then you state the majority of the nation's poor are on lower ground, as you would refer to it, which would then lend to the majority of white people being on higher ground, no?

so youre saying that, because white people have an advantage over peoples of other colors, we should just start lending them a hand because our ancestors subjugated them?

so now the american dream follows that, if youre colored or a minority, you get a helping hand because of your skin color. what happened to EQUALITY? affirmative action affirms only that we give disproportionate rights to those that have "earned them" on basis of skin color. that is INEQUALITY due to the color of ones skin.

and i do believe thats what affirmative action is trying to dissolve, correct?

Not because "our ancestors subjugated them", but because the system, put IN PLACE by our ancestors, CONTINUES to subjugate them.

Let's break it down to very simplistic terms. Let's say that everyone born in this country gets some money when they're born, and that amount varies from person to person. Let's say white babies get, on average, 200 dollars, and lets say minority babies get, on average, 100 dollars. Some black babies get more than 100, some even get more than 200. Some white babies get less than some black babies, some white babies get less than 100 But on average white babies get 200 and black babies get 100.

This of course representes the general socioeconomic advantages that whites have in this country SIMPLY BY BEING WHITE.

White children get 200 on average, black children 100 on average. Is that fair? Is that equal? Of course not. It isn't fair. It isn't equal. It's white kids getting more money for no other reason then because they are white. "so much for equality" indeed.

So let's say someone goes "hey, the white folks have 200 on average, and the black folks only 100 on average, so hey kids, if you're black, when you turn 18, we'll give you all each an extra 100 bucks ok?"

Now of course some black kids have more than their 100, and some even have more than 200, and if you give them all 100 bucks then sure, some kids who have 200, or 300, or 500 and really don't need that extra 100 are going to get it, BUT once you've handed it out, now things are equal, now things are fair, now the black kids and the white kids get 200 dollars on average. That's fair, that's equal.

now the problem is, what you're arguing is basically "hey, they got 100 extra dollars! That's not fair! That's not equal! They got something I didn't! What about equality? Where's my 100 dollars??"

What they fail to realize however is that the black kids didn't get something the white kids didn't already have. They already have their 100 dollars. They've always had it. They've had it since the day they were born. And since the day they were born, things HAVEN'T been equal. Affirmative action is this giving of the 100 dollars. It may seen, if viewed by itself, unequal, and unfair, because it does give an advantage.

And it will look that way as long as you continue to deny, or be ignorant of the fact that it doesn't give them an UNFAIR advantage at all, it merely eliminates or lessens the unfair DISADVANTAGE they've already had. Whites have an advantage over blacks in this country, and that, simply, is inequality, that is unfair. AA seeks to close that gap, not swing it the other way.

If viewed by itself, yes gives minorities an easier time getting into school, and by extention, gives whites a harder time at it. But that's not inequality, that's not unfair, that's the recognition that whites, simply by being whites, had it too easy on average to begin with.

It's unfair, and it's unequal to begin with, that's the entire point. At the end of the day minorities should have an EQUAL chance to go to school, an EQUAL chance to get a good job, an EQUAL chance to improve their life. They should have an EQUAL chance at all things, and they don't. That's the problem. AA doesn't unfavorably favor blacks so much as it reduces the existing unfair advantage of whites.

Those of us who favor it believe that if we keep it up then, in time, as education becomes more prevalant, it won't be needed. The end goal of affirmative action is the end of affirmative action. The idea, the hope is, that over time, after 5, 7, 10 generations, it's not going to be needed anymore. Those who support it are not nieve enough to believe that if you pass a few laws, wave a magic wand and go "OK everyone's equal now" that it's going to happen.

Not because "our ancestors subjugated them", but because the system, put IN PLACE by our ancestors, CONTINUES to subjugate them.

Let's break it down to very simplistic terms. Let's say that everyone born in this country gets some money when they're born, and that amount varies from person to person. Let's say white babies get, on average, 200 dollars, and lets say minority babies get, on average, 100 dollars. Some black babies get more than 100, some even get more than 200. Some white babies get less than some black babies, some white babies get less than 100 But on average white babies get 200 and black babies get 100.

This of course representes the general socioeconomic advantages that whites have in this country SIMPLY BY BEING WHITE.

White children get 200 on average, black children 100 on average. Is that fair? Is that equal? Of course not. It isn't fair. It isn't equal. It's white kids getting more money for no other reason then because they are white. "so much for equality" indeed.

So let's say someone goes "hey, the white folks have 200 on average, and the black folks only 100 on average, so hey kids, if you're black, when you turn 18, we'll give you all each an extra 100 bucks ok?"

Now of course some black kids have more than their 100, and some even have more than 200, and if you give them all 100 bucks then sure, some kids who have 200, or 300, or 500 and really don't need that extra 100 are going to get it, BUT once you've handed it out, now things are equal, now things are fair, now the black kids and the white kids get 200 dollars on average. That's fair, that's equal.

now the problem is, what you're arguing is basically "hey, they got 100 extra dollars! That's not fair! That's not equal! They got something I didn't! What about equality? Where's my 100 dollars??"

What they fail to realize however is that the black kids didn't get something the white kids didn't already have. They already have their 100 dollars. They've always had it. They've had it since the day they were born. And since the day they were born, things HAVEN'T been equal. Affirmative action is this giving of the 100 dollars. It may seen, if viewed by itself, unequal, and unfair, because it does give an advantage.

And it will look that way as long as you continue to deny, or be ignorant of the fact that it doesn't give them an UNFAIR advantage at all, it merely eliminates or lessens the unfair DISADVANTAGE they've already had.

If viewed by itself, yes gives minorities an easier time getting into school, and by extention, gives whites a harder time at it. But that's not inequality, that's not unfair, that's the recognition that whites, simply by being whites, had it too easy on average to begin with.

It's unfair, and it's unequal to begin with, that's the entire point.

oh, i see now! now we arent giving minorities something more, were just giving them whatever they were missing. okay.

first of all, why is it now we have to give minorities something in return for "past injustices?" is it because they are poor? yes, you say. is it because they are born inequal? yes, you say. IS IT BECAUSE IT IS PRO-EQUALITY? yes, you say.

so, why exactly is it pro-equality? i'm simply going to ignore your point about giving black kids an extra $100, because thats off point - affirmative action rewards skin colors with things other than simply money.

lets just go with an example that has something to do with affirmative action, hm? okay. lets say an average college bound student, 3.0 gpa and a... oh, lets say 1600 sat score applies to a regular college. and lets say another student with the same scores applies to the same school, only this person is a minority. affirmative action gives the minority the spot in the school first, and its up to the other hundreds of thousands of applicants to decide who goes to the school. how is this fair?! we're allowing the subjugation of the white person now simply because of past injustices, slavery, so on and so forth.

second, where is the disadvantage? sure, in your example, theres a monetary disadvantage, but so what? minorities have a head on their necks and a brain in their head - damned if they cant think for themselves. hell, there are minorities in the white house that came from poor families. why are we also classifying poor neighborhoods as ones that need help? sure, theyre poor. sure, they have drug problems (find me a middle-class white neighborhood that doesnt). but why are we giving them an advantage because its a poor neighborhood?

because theyre poor.

and thats all affirmative action is about. rewarding people on the basis of their skin color and location. which undoes what the black movement in the south accomplished.

we're allowing the subjugation of the white person now simply because of past injustices, slavery, so on and so forth.

Once again you misse the point by a mile. Once again you just don't read. Once again, it is NOT ABOUT PAST INJUSTICES. It's not about what DID happen 150 years ago, not in the slightests.

It's about what is happening in 2006. It's about what is happening today. It is about what is happening RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT NOW blacks on average have less of an education.
RIGHT NOW they on average have less income
RIGHT NOW they on average are arrested more often
RIGHT NOW they on average do drugs mor often
RIGHT NOW they on average are raised by single parents
RIGHT NOW they on average are more likely to become single parents
RIGHT NOW they on average are disportionatly in poverty.

And the question is "why"? Why is this so? And there are only two answers. Either it's cultural, and that culture caused this, or it's genetic, and blacks just do worse on average because...they're black.

If you believe blacks do worse because they're black...well, you're a racist, plain and simple.

Now if you, like most intelligent people believe that it's cultural, we have to look at WHY is it? It's not enough to say "blacks are poorer than whites on average", the important question is WHY? And what most people believe is it's because of slavery, because of jim crow, because of racism, because of segregation. That these things have had such an impact that they continue to have an impact today, RIGHT NOW.

It's not "we're giving blacks something because once upon a time blacks were slaves". To say that misses the whole thing by a mile It's not "because your great grandfater was a slave we're going to give something back to you".

NO NO NO NO NO

It is because a black child today is automatically, at the moment it is born, at a disadvantage compared to an equally situated white child. Even poor ghetto white children succeed more often than black ones do. It's a simple fact of our society. To say it's "simply because of past injustices" betrays a great deal of ignorance on your part.

We do it not because of PAST injustices, but because of CURRENT ones, ones going on RIGHT NOW. Ones whose roots can be traced back in the past yes, but ones that still exist today.

Slavery might be over, segregation might be over, jim crow might be over. They might be in the past, but the effects of them are felt RIGHT NOW, and it's those effects being felt RIGHT NOW that is the target of AA, not past actions. To say it is about PAST injustices is to ignore the very real truth that those past injustices continue to cause current ones. How else would you explain the disparities I mentioned above? It is ignorance in the extreme to suggest that the effects of those events do not still resonate very strongly today.

Ignorance in the extreme.

lets just go with an example that has something to do with affirmative action, hm? okay. lets say an average college bound student, 3.0 gpa and a... oh, lets say 1600 sat score applies to a regular college. and lets say another student with the same scores applies to the same school, only this person is a minority. affirmative action gives the minority the spot in the school first,

Because if it wasn't for affirmative action, that spot would go to the white student over the black one FAAAR more times. Because without it, if for 100 spots your applicants were 200 bob's and 20 Jamals you'd end up with about 99 Bob's. Once again you assume that if you take AA out of the equation, everything will fall down on racially harmonious lines.

It doesn't. To assume that it would is again ignorance.

Because if it wasn't for affirmative action, that spot would go to the white student over the black one FAAAR more times. Because without it, if for 100 spots your applicants were 200 bob's and 20 Jamals you'd end up with about 99 Bob's. Once again you assume that if you take AA out of the equation, everything will fall down on racially harmonious lines.

It doesn't. To assume that it would is again ignorance.

NO, because if it wasn't for affirmative action, the spot would go to more qualified peoples. Colleges accept students on past performances and to deny someone of past performances in both primary and secondary schools is ridiculous.

Because the minority is, automatically, on lower ground.

NO, because if it wasn't for affirmative action, the spot would go to more qualified peoples.

You didn't say more qualified, you said equally qualified.

Let me ask you a similar question I asked before. Let's say...hell I dunno, minorities make up 30% of the population.

Let's say a university has 10 spots left. Let us also say for that spot they have 60 applicants, all of whom have the same, or substantially similar academic records. In keeping with statistics, 18 of those applicants are minorities and 42 are white.

Do you believe that on average, if 42 white applicants and 18 minority applicants apply for 10 spots, then statistics will hold and based PURELY on statistics, all things being substantially equal, 7 of those 10 spots will be white and 3 will be a minority?

To put it very simply, do you believeall other things being EQUAL, same grades, same education, same degress, everything else substantially equal that a minority, outside of affirmative action has the same chance at getting into the school, or getting the job, than a white student does?

Do you believe, all things being equal, that when it comes to education or hiring that black and white studens are treated the same when the only difference is their race/ethnicity?

Because the minority is, automatically, on lower ground.

Bingo.

Or at least perhaps it is more accurate to say "the minority is, automatically, on lower ground than an equally situated white person". There are plenty of black children of extremely wealthy families who are better off than poor white trash, but all other things being equal, minorities, with a few exceptions, are automatically on lower ground than equally situated "majorities"

Once again you misse the point by a mile. Once again you just don't read. Once again, it is NOT ABOUT PAST INJUSTICES. It's not about what DID happen 150 years ago, not in the slightests.

It's about what is happening in 2006. It's about what is happening today. It is about what is happening RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT NOW blacks on average have less of an education.
RIGHT NOW they on average have less income
RIGHT NOW they on average are arrested more often
RIGHT NOW they on average do drugs mor often
RIGHT NOW they on average are raised by single parents
RIGHT NOW they on average are more likely to become single parents
RIGHT NOW they on average are disportionatly in poverty.

And the question is "why"? Why is this so? And there are only two answers. Either it's cultural, and that culture caused this, or it's genetic, and blacks just do worse on average because...they're black.

If you believe blacks do worse because they're black...well, you're a racist, plain and simple.

Now if you, like most intelligent people believe that it's cultural, we have to look at WHY is it? It's not enough to say "blacks are poorer than whites on average", the important question is WHY? And what most people believe is it's because of slavery, because of jim crow, because of racism, because of segregation. That these things have had such an impact that they continue to have an impact today, RIGHT NOW.

It's not "we're giving blacks something because once upon a time blacks were slaves". To say that misses the whole thing by a mile It's not "because your great grandfater was a slave we're going to give something back to you".

NO NO NO NO NO

It is because a black child today is automatically, at the moment it is born, at a disadvantage compared to an equally situated white child. Even poor ghetto white children succeed more often than black ones do. It's a simple fact of our society. To say it's "simply because of past injustices" betrays a great deal of ignorance on your part.

We do it not because of PAST injustices, but because of CURRENT ones, ones going on RIGHT NOW. Ones whose roots can be traced back in the past yes, but ones that still exist today.

Slavery might be over, segregation might be over, jim crow might be over. They might be in the past, but the effects of them are felt RIGHT NOW, and it's those effects being felt RIGHT NOW that is the target of AA, not past actions. To say it is about PAST injustices is to ignore the very real truth that those past injustices continue to cause current ones. How else would you explain the disparities I mentioned above? It is ignorance in the extreme to suggest that the effects of those events do not still resonate very strongly today.

Ignorance in the extreme.

and RIGHT NOW, of course, white people have an economic advantage, on the average
RIGHT NOW, white people have less of a chance of getting involved with drugs, on average (less of a economic trouble than situational trouble, but ill follow)
RIGHT NOW, white people have less of a chance of widowing or being seperated from their parents, on the average

SO, it follows that, on the average, white people are in better off conditions today than black people. okay.

SO WHY, exactly, MUST WE GIVE BLACK PEOPLE AN ADVANTAGE?

affirmative action based on skin color is plain wrong. giving the signal to minorities that "its okay that you live in a socioeconomically poor region and you are a minor, well help" is wrong. youre plain telling people that, because they are disadvantaged and a minority, they get help is wrong.

youre telling people that because theyre "helpless," theyll get help, and thats just plain wrong. no person is helpless and to assume that minorities are based on anything is wrong.

And the question is "why"? Why is this so? And there are only two answers. Either it's cultural, and that culture caused this, or it's genetic, and blacks just do worse on average because...they're black.Or because they use being black as an excuse.

You didn't say more qualified, you said equally qualified.



He did say equally qualified, though I would then say if the canidates are equally good then make both an offer. If only one offer can be made then it should go to a coin toss.

Or because they use being black as an excuse.

As an excuse for what?

If only one offer can be made then it should go to a coin toss.

And how is that any less arbitrary than deciding on the basis of race? If anything, it's more arbitrary - unlike deciding it on the basis of race, which has the effect of promoting diversity and correcting for racial inequality, deciding on the basis of a coin toss is just useless.

I have seen several glaring examples of racism in this thread.

Here is a hint: not all white people are from middle-class suburbia and not all blacks are from poor inner city neighborhoods.

There are a lot more poor white kids than poor black kids – and poverty is a far bigger influence on the opportunities than the color of one’s skin. So why is it that when two kids who go to equally shitty school because they are from dirt poor neighborhoods we give one a positive bias over the other simply because of the color of his skin? Is that not racism? Dr King warned against such programs and with good reason. He warned that one should seek to make the law color-blind and not attempt to use the law to redress past wrongs by building in a racial bias.

Legislating bias based upon race is true racism – your motivations are irrelevant. A societal bias cannot be corrected by legislation, and imposing such legislation simply creates a framework for institutionalized racism.

There is one reason above all that I am firmly against Affirmative Action and I will give you one of many such examples as to why. I used to work at a small company staffed entirely by white people with the exception of one black girl. When we had some down time we would chat and eventually we got onto the topic of AA. She was always felt very insecure and wondered if she was hired because of her abilities or because she was a black female. She had to work twice as hard to earn any respect because of her skin color; not because of any racism but because in the back of everyone’s mind they wondered if she was hired in the name of ‘diversity’ in the workforce.

She was a very capable woman, and I was happy to work with her because of it. I know she was hired simply because she was an intelligent and capable person, but the thought always nagged her that maybe it was for ‘diversity’. If nothing else, this is why I am firmly opposed to AA.

And how is that any less arbitrary than deciding on the basis of race? If anything, it's more arbitrary - unlike deciding it on the basis of race, which has the effect of promoting diversity and correcting for racial inequality, deciding on the basis of a coin toss is just useless.

I did not say it was less arbitrary, if both candiates are equally qualified then they should both have an equal chance of getting the place. A coin toss is 50/50 so both have the same chance of getting the place.

There are a lot more poor white kids than poor black kids – and poverty is a far bigger influence on the opportunities than the color of one’s skin. So why is it that when two kids who go to equally shitty school because they are from dirt poor neighborhoods we give one a positive bias over the other simply because of the color of his skin?

Because "race" is an influence on the opportunities that a person gets. And a substantial one.

The two are not mutually exclusive. No one serious denies that there are problems for the poor with regard to equality of opportunity. It does not follow that poverty is the only reason people are denied equality of opportunity. And it remains true that Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans are all disproportionately poor.

Dr King warned against such programs and with good reason. He warned that one should seek to make the law color-blind and not attempt to use the law to redress past wrongs by building in a racial bias.

Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up.

:rolleyes:

Legislating bias based upon race is true racism – your motivations are irrelevant.

Except it isn't based on race. It's based on racial inequality. If the positions were switched - if whites were the victims of centuries of oppression and deprivation whose effects continued into the present day - I would support the same for them.

A societal bias cannot be corrected by legislation,

Questionable, but irrelevant. Affirmative action does not seek to correct it. It seeks to correct for it - to implement policies that make up for past and present discrimination.

and imposing such legislation simply creates a framework for institutionalized racism.

Does that even mean anything?

She had to work twice as hard to earn any respect because of her skin color; not because of any racism but because in the back of everyone’s mind they wondered if she was hired in the name of ‘diversity’ in the workforce.

You said that she was "an intelligent and capable person" - yet the fact that everyone wondered whether she was hired in the name of "diversity" had nothing to do with racism?

if both candiates are equally qualified then they should both have an equal chance of getting the place.

Why?

Whether you do it by coin toss or by race, it's still arbitrary; it's still a factor beyond the control of the applicants.

I have seen several glaring examples of racism in this thread.

Here is a hint: not all white people are from middle-class suburbia and not all blacks are from poor inner city neighborhoods.

There are a lot more poor white kids than poor black kids – and poverty is a far bigger influence on the opportunities than the color of one’s skin. So why is it that when two kids who go to equally shitty school because they are from dirt poor neighborhoods we give one a positive bias over the other simply because of the color of his skin? Is that not racism? Dr King warned against such programs and with good reason. He warned that one should seek to make the law color-blind and not attempt to use the law to redress past wrongs by building in a racial bias.

Legislating bias based upon race is true racism – your motivations are irrelevant. A societal bias cannot be corrected by legislation, and imposing such legislation simply creates a framework for institutionalized racism.

There is one reason above all that I am firmly against Affirmative Action and I will give you one of many such examples as to why. I used to work at a small company staffed entirely by white people with the exception of one black girl. When we had some down time we would chat and eventually we got onto the topic of AA. She was always felt very insecure and wondered if she was hired because of her abilities or because she was a black female. She had to work twice as hard to earn any respect because of her skin color; not because of any racism but because in the back of everyone’s mind they wondered if she was hired in the name of ‘diversity’ in the workforce.

She was a very capable woman, and I was happy to work with her because of it. I know she was hired simply because she was an intelligent and capable person, but the thought always nagged her that maybe it was for ‘diversity’. If nothing else, this is why I am firmly opposed to AA.

*clapclapclap* Excellent post. *gives cookie*

Why?

Whether you do it by coin toss or by race, it's still arbitrary; it's still a factor beyond the control of the applicants.

But race is predetermined so they do not have an equal chance of getting it if race is involved.

EDIT: I believe if people are equally qualified then they should have an equal chance at getting job/place/grant/etc. The coin toss is the decider but it ensures both are still equally likely to get the reward (or what ever they are trying to get).

But race is predetermined so they do not have an equal chance of getting it if race is involved.

No, they don't. So what?

Equal chance or no equal chance, the decision is still arbitrary.

No, they don't. So what?

Equal chance or no equal chance, the decision is still arbitrary.

As I added into my edit above, I believe they should both get an equal chance if they are equally qualified. That is my belief, you believe differently and I can understand where your position is coming from.

Well maybe if I were from a higher economicclass, i'd be able to some of these "white" benefits.

This I agree with. I completely see where you're coming from.

I have divorced parents. I spent most of my life with my dad who barely earned enough while my mother refused to pay support after she remarried. I'd LOVE to brag about how my economic class puts me at an advantage, but it doesn't. I can't because I had very little, and my parents fought over money.

I am slightly disabled (hearing and vision loss; no sense of smell), and I got nothing to help me get ahead.

Did I get any help? No.

And what about discrimination in hiring?

It's called 'we like this guy's skill listing more than this one'.

Back to the name and application comment, if its a big problem, then why not use nameless applications? I think that would be far better than any AA program, just because it would be based soley on merit.

Or even have it with first initial then last name.

If name is an issue then I have no doubt encountered it. I have an Spanish-sounding first name with a very plain-jane English last name. That probably creates some images in people's mind.

I'm a woman and I would despise being hired because of some quota requirement or AA style programme.

It's called 'we like this guy's skill listing more than this one'.

except that there are tons of studies that have been done on this and they show that you are wrong. unless being classed as white is a skill...

except that there are tons of studies that have been done on this and they show that you are wrong. unless being classed as white is a skill...

And it's not just a black-white thing either. Sexism in hiring is still a problem. In his book Blink, Malcolm Gladwell talked about how women couldn't get hired to play horns in orchestras until the orchestras instituted truly blind auditions--there was this belief that women didn't have the necessary power. When they made the auditions completely blind--to the point where they made the musicians take off their shoes so as not to betray the sound of high heels--lo and behold, women started winning auditions and becoming the leads in major orchestras. And none of the conductors would have ever said that they were sexist--and in their minds, they probably weren't. They'd just ingrained the bias so deeply that it was second nature, which is what happens in a lot of these hiring situations.

I was just watching the old Chris Rock show. They had on some guy -- didn't even catch his name, immaterial. Black guy, Affirmative Action advocate.

So he lists the people that need Affirmative Action --Blacks. Latinos. Asians. Arabs. Women. Jews.

Jews? Jews are getting financially screwed in America?

Excuse me if I'm missing something, but everything but white men.

Then, Chris Rock says "Oh, but it is worse than that. Go into any restaurant in New York and try to find a hostess who is more than 140 lbs. And heavy guys too. They have to be in the back".

Okay, so everyone but white men within 20 lbs of their optimal weight should get an advantage in college admissions, job hiring, etc.

It is crazy. That is why a perhaps once reasonable idea has gone INSANE.

Prejudicial action agaisnt white men or anyone based on race or sex is bigotry. Government's role is taking action AGAINST prejudice and bigotry, not instituting it.

I have to agree, Affirmative Action is by far racist against the white man. The World is turning and soon to be is the crime of being white.

I'm personally tired of the race card being played out for practically everything.

Before anyone decides on declaring me a racist. I have 2 roommates in my house, a Cuban guy and his son, and a korean female who just had a new born baby.

As for the Cuban guy, I actually can't wait till he moves out in mid-January. Race has nothing to do it. His 3 year old kid treats both of my dogs pretty poorly. I have now put into place on my refrigerator concerning my new "Zero-Tolerance" Policy concerning my dogs. He's out of town right now so they're going to get a wake up call Monday am.

I have to agree, Affirmative Action is by far racist against the white man. The World is turning and soon to be is the crime of being white.

You absolutly can't be for real...can you?

Before anyone decides on declaring me a racist. I have 2 roommates in my house, a Cuban guy and his son, and a korean female who just had a new born baby.


Yes yes and your best friend is black. Heard it all before.

What if we kept affirmative action, but instead of having it be based on race, have it be based on wealth level? In other words, we would give economically disadvantaged people in general (whether they are white, black, asian, etc.) advantages in getting a good education. This system would be a lot like affirmative action is now, since it tries to achieve the same ends, except that it would truly try to promote social equality.

Yes yes and your best friend is black. Heard it all before.

Our government is not supposed to be taking favorites, the Affirmative Action confirms the favoriteism toward minority groups.

No my best friend isn't black. I have, though, had some very good friends who were black.

What if we kept affirmative action, but instead of having it be based on race, have it be based on wealth level?

Because just as there are structures of class inequality that unjustly restrict people's opportunities, there are also structures of racial inequality that unjustly restrict people's opportunities.

So you act to correct both.

Our government is not supposed to be taking favorites, the Affirmative Action confirms the favoriteism toward minority groups.

The problem is that the government HAS taken favorites. It took favorites in slavery, it took favorites in disenfranchisement, it took favorites in jim crow, it took favorites in segregation.

The government HAS taken favorites, and in doing so set up a system that greatly harmed, and CONTINUES to harm, minorities.

All those who say "omg affirmative action is evil!" or that it's unequal, or unfair, or discrimination, or gives an unfair advantage or any of that crap fails to recognize one simple thing.

In this country whites are given an advantage for no other reason than simply being white.

Until you accept that reality and recognize what AA does, of course you're going to think it unfair.

If it's so important why would you not just out-and-out punish those who practice descrimination? It sounds like you're suggesting that AA is some sort of thing that can be accounted for and covered over that way. You wouldn't just go making someone who's skimming from the accounts give the money back and keep his job, would you?

If it's so important why would you not just out-and-out punish those who practice descrimination?

One very good reason it's impossible to just "punish" discrimination is that a great deal of it (very probably the vast majority of it) is unconscious or semi-conscious. It's not a matter of people putting up signs in front of universities that say "NO COLOREDS ALLOWED," but rather of people unconsciously assuming that someone named Aisha is less intelligent, capable, or well-educated than someone named Emily, people failing to take into account that being stuck in a lousy public school district affects students' test scores, and so on and so forth. Discrimination is not limited to KKK members - it's something all of us do, to greater or lesser degree, not because we're bad people, but because we simply make assumptions and jump to conclusions without necessarily examining our reasoning.

I hate affirmative action. Whatever happened to the merit system? If i am the best, i should get the reward..not because I am a black woman..insane.

Agreed.

One very good reason it's impossible to just "punish" discrimination is that a great deal of it (very probably the vast majority of it) is unconscious or semi-conscious. It's not a matter of people putting up signs in front of universities that say "NO COLOREDS ALLOWED," but rather of people unconsciously assuming that someone named Aisha is less intelligent, capable, or well-educated than someone named Emily, people failing to take into account that being stuck in a lousy public school district affects students' test scores, and so on and so forth. Discrimination is not limited to KKK members - it's something all of us do, to greater or lesser degree, not because we're bad people, but because we simply make assumptions and jump to conclusions without necessarily examining our reasoning.Then I would simply suggest making graduating high school mean something. Enforce strict ability requirements of anyone leaving high school (limited testing, and perhaps teacher recommendation for advancement), and if they don't pass then make them pass, giving them whatever attention and aid they need but not lowering the standard at all. I'd rather support that kind of thing with my taxes instead of this college entrance AA. It's rediculous how bad a "High" school education has gotten in the US; I think that's part of the problem. You basically have to have a college degree now to get anywhere economically because everyone knows the public schools teach precious little... and then when AA does something about it at college, it's fairly clear that that kind of thing is racism and people call them on it. Education AA needs to be done before college and be non-descriminatory.

AA with employers is a little sticky. They're private entities, so I'd guess any government laws would not apply. Are EOE's actually required to abide by their statements?

Because just as there are structures of class inequality that unjustly restrict people's opportunities, there are also structures of racial inequality that unjustly restrict people's opportunities.

So you act to correct both.

My point though was that, even though it may appear that people are being economically restricted because of race, it is actually because of wealth level. Although it is oftentimes true that minorities are poorer than whites, there are also white people who may need help (the Appalachian mountains come to mind). Furthermore, if we were to take Oprah as an example of a wealthy African American, if she were to have children they would have no problem succeeding in life. Therefore, these disadvantages that many people face are not necessarily a racial issue; it's not as if every white person is automatically bound to succeed and every black, hispanic, or asian person needs help in order to do so (this also, I believe, sends a bad message to these respective communities, by saying that they basically need a crutch of sorts in order to be competitive). By implementing a system where all of the poor are being helped out, you would be making sure that everybody who needs help, gets it.

My point though was that, even though it may appear that people are being economically restricted because of race, it is actually because of wealth level.

then your point is completely wrong

Before anyone decides on declaring me a racist. I have 2 roommates in my house, a Cuban guy and his son, and a korean female who just had a new born baby.

As for the Cuban guy, I actually can't wait till he moves out in mid-January. Race has nothing to do it. His 3 year old kid treats both of my dogs pretty poorly. I have now put into place on my refrigerator concerning my new "Zero-Tolerance" Policy concerning my dogs. He's out of town right now so they're going to get a wake up call Monday am.

Sounds like a Hallmark Christmas card over there, brother.

You ever hear of Skipper's Smokehouse in Lutz?

Nope--but let's not pretend that on the socio-economic chain, being poor and white still gets you more of a shot at a job than being even middle-class and black. Hell, in one recent study, white men with prison convictions got more calls back for second interviews than black men with no prison record. Still think skin color doesn't matter?

Edit: Here's the link (http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_09172003).

is there a further link that covers what the criminal records are? could'nt find it:(

is there a further link that covers what the criminal records are? could'nt find it:(

American Sociological Review, Volume 70, Number 3, June 2005, pp. 355-380(26)

it was an identical fictitious felony drug conviction for both

American Sociological Review, Volume 70, Number 3, June 2005, pp. 355-380(26)

it was an identical fictitious felony drug conviction for both

was it? ok...

(thanks)