NationStates Jolt Archive


What civil war?

Aryavartha
23-11-2006, 22:49
Yeah, what civil war?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_061123185117

Attack on Baghdad Shiite slum kills 160


By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 26 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - In the deadliest attack on a sectarian enclave since the beginning of the Iraq war, suspected Sunni-Arab militants used five car bombs and two mortar rounds on the capital's Shiite Sadr City slum to kill at least 160 people and wound 257 on Thursday, police said.

The Shiites responded almost immediately, firing 10 mortar rounds at the Abu Hanifa Sunni mosque in Azamiya, killing one person and wounding 14 people in an attack on the holiest Sunni shrine in Baghdad. It blew a three-foot hole in the dome and did severe damage to some inside rooms.

Eight mortar rounds fired in Baghdad also slammed into the Association of Muslim Scholars, the top Sunni organization in the country, causing no injuries, police.

Beginning at 3:10 p.m., the three suicide car bomb attackers in Sadr City blew up their vehicles one after another, at 15 minute intervals, hitting Jamila market, al-Hay market and al-Shahidein Square. At about the same time, two mortar rounds struck al-Shahidein Square and Mudhaffar Square, said police Col. Hassan Challoub.

Two other parked car bombs exploded around the same time, one at the edge of Sadr City and another behind the main office of radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, Challoub said. A sixth car bomb was detected and detonated out of harm's way by Iraqi police, he said.

As the fiery explosions sent up huge plumes of black smoke up over northeastern Baghdad, and left streets covered with burning bodies and blood, angry residents and armed Shiite militiamen flooded the streets, hurling curses at Sunni Muslims and firing weapons into the air.

Sadr City is the home of the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to al-Sadr.

Ambulances raced to burning wooden fruit and vegetables stalls in Jamila market to rescue dozens of wounded people. Rescue workers also removed burned bodies from mangled cars and minibuses and took them away on wheeled carts. But many other corpses of adults and children remained in the streets.

Shortly after the attack, Mahdi Army militiamen deployed around the area, setting up checkpoints and roadblocks in the area to keep all strangers away.

[....and we wonder why militia gets local support. People will side with who comes out at this time and helps...]

Challoub said the coordinated attack killed 160 Iraqis and wounded 257.

The government imposed a curfew on Baghdad beginning at 8 p.m. Thursday, saying that all people and vehicles must stay off the streets of the city until further notice. The government also closed Baghdad International Airport to all commercial flights, said Brig. Abdul-Karin Khalaf, the spokesman for the Interior Ministry.

In addition, top government officials held an emergency meeting at the home of Shiite leader Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim that also was attended by Kurdish President Jalal Talabani, Sunni Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi and U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, an aide to al-Hakim said.

Afterward, the three Iraqi officials appeared on national television, with al-Hashimi reading a statement from them calling for calm and self-restraint and urging politicians to work hard to reduce sectarian tensions. "We call for a revision of the government's existing security plans for Baghdad to better protect innocent civilians," he said.

The coordinated attack was the deadliest in Iraq since the U.S.-led war began in March 2003.

It surpassed a bombing in the southern city of Hillah that targeted mostly Shiite police and National Guard recruits, killing 125 and wounding more than 140 in February 2004. On March 2, 2004, coordinated blasts from suicide bombers, mortars and planted explosives struck Shiite Muslim shrines in Karbala and Baghdad, killing a total of at least 181 Iraqis and wounding 573. But that attack occurred in two separate cities.

Police Col. Hassan Chaloub said at least 150 people were killed and 238 wounded in Thursday's attack.

Sectarian fighting also broke in another part of northern Iraq on Thursday, when 30 Sunni insurgents armed with machine guns and mortars attacked the Shiite-controlled Health Ministry building. After a three-hour battle, during which Iraqi soldiers and U.S. military helicopters intervened, the attackers were repulsed. But at least seven guards of the ministry were wounded, said police 1st. Lt. Maitham Abdul-Razaq.

The Sadr City and Health Ministry attacks were the latest example of widespread sectarian fighting involving Sunnis and Shiites that is leaving Iraq either on the verge of a civil war or already fighting one.

At about noon Thursday, heavy clashes broke out between about suspected Sunni insurgent gunmen and guards at the Shiite-controlled Health Ministry building in northwest Baghdad, security officials said.

State-run Iraqiyah television said the Health Ministry was being attacked with mortars by "terrorists who are intending to take control of the building."

Security officials said about 30 gunmen, believed to be Sunni insurgents, had launched the attack. Iraqi troops were being rushed to the area and all roads leading to the ministry in Bab al-Muadham neighborhood were closed, said the security officials on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to reporters.

Police Lt. Ali Muhsin said the attack began at 12:15 p.m. when three mortar shells hit the building, causing damage. After that, gunmen on the upper floors of surrounding buildings opened fire.

Ministry workers were trapped in the building.

"The gunmen fled as American helicopters and Iraqi armored vehicles arrived. Employees were able to leave starting about 3:15 p.m.," Health ministry spokesman Qassim Yehyah said.

Health Minister Ali al-Shemari is a follower of al-Sadr, the radical anti-American Shiite cleric.

Earlier Thursday, U.S. and Iraqi forces searching for a kidnapped American soldier also had swept through an area of Sadr City, killing four Iraqis, wounding eight and detaining five, police said.

The raid was the fourth in six days that coalition forces have raided Sadr City, which is home to the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to al-Sadr.

The militia is suspected of having kidnapped U.S. soldier Ahmed Qusai al-Taayie, a 41-year-old Ann Arbor, Michigan, resident as he was was visiting his Iraqi wife in Baghdad on Oct. 23.

The Mahdi Army also is suspected of having kidnapped scores of people during the raid on a Ministry of Higher Education office in Baghdad on Nov. 14. The ministry is predominantly Sunni Arab.

In the raid on Sadr City at about 4:30 a.m., coalition forces searched houses and opened fire on a minivan carrying Iraqi workers in the al-Fallah Street area, killing four of them and wounding eight, said police Capt. Mohammed Ismail. Iraqis often pay a small fee to crowd such vehicles and travel early in the morning to sites where they hope to get work as day laborers.

Ismail said the coalition raid also detained five Iraqis.

In a statement, the U.S. military confirmed the raid and said it was conducted in the continuing effort to find al-Taayiean. It confirm the detention of five Iraqis and that a vehicle was shot at by Iraqi forces after "displaying hostile intent." But the coalition did not report Iraqi casualties.

In another development, the U.S. military on Thursday reported the deaths of three Marines who were killed while fighting in Anbar province, where many Sunni-Arab insurgents are based.

So far this month, 52 American service members have been killed or died.


Hey, but don't worry....US troops can be seen here working hard to win the hearts and minds....it is only a matter of time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9A_vxIOB-I&eurl=
New Burmesia
23-11-2006, 22:52
This would probably have more of an impact if we didn't see this on our TVs every day. Talking of which, what's going to take the first 1/2 hour of Question Time tonight now?
Marrakech II
23-11-2006, 23:14
Yeah, what civil war?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_061123185117

Attack on Baghdad Shiite slum kills 160



Hey, but don't worry....US troops can be seen here working hard to win the hearts and minds....it is only a matter of time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9A_vxIOB-I&eurl=

Can those kids run or what? Damn I think there are a couple of future track stars in that video.
New Granada
23-11-2006, 23:28
Thank you george bush, thank you donald rumsfeld.

Go democracy go. Go freedom! Operation iraqi "freedom" (liberation? in english?) Like donald rumsfeld said in response to iraq looting, "well, that's what free people do."

No, donald rumsfeld, it isnt.
New Granada
23-11-2006, 23:30
Looks like we've got anarchism in action in iraq!

Form those mutual-aid-societies you maximally-free anarchist ubermunches! State's gone, go anarchy go!
Radical Centrists
23-11-2006, 23:37
Ubermunches? *raises eyebrow*

Is that some kind of Nihilistic breakfast cereal... or something?
Arinola
23-11-2006, 23:38
Looks like we've got anarchism in action in iraq!

Form those mutual-aid-societies you maximally-free anarchist ubermunches! State's gone, go anarchy go!

Woo anarchy!:p
Neu Leonstein
23-11-2006, 23:40
Looks like we've got anarchism in action in iraq!
Not really. The idea with anarchism is that people get together in groups based on agreement with each other on how to life together.

In this case it's more a matter of everyone trying to prove that they're the most coercive of the bunch.
Kryozerkia
24-11-2006, 00:39
Now, this is where all us nay-says say to all those who supported the war, "told you so!".
Laerod
24-11-2006, 00:59
Looks like we've got anarchism in action in iraq!

Form those mutual-aid-societies you maximally-free anarchist ubermunches! State's gone, go anarchy go!Anarchism means "no leaders" not "no rules" ;)
Aryavartha
24-11-2006, 01:01
Can those kids run or what? Damn I think there are a couple of future track stars in that video.

What's sadder is that the kid who runs all the way does not even get the bottle....
New Granada
24-11-2006, 01:28
Not really. The idea with anarchism is that people get together in groups based on agreement with each other on how to life together.

In this case it's more a matter of everyone trying to prove that they're the most coercive of the bunch.

Well, if we're talking about reality, there isnt much of a difference between those ideas- two ways of saying the same thing.
New Granada
24-11-2006, 01:29
Ubermunches? *raises eyebrow*

Is that some kind of Nihilistic breakfast cereal... or something?

More or less, only anarchists know what ubermunches are though, its their little secret.
Soheran
24-11-2006, 01:30
Well, if we're talking about reality, there isnt much of a difference between those ideas- two ways of saying the same thing.

Only if you have no clue about anarchism. This kind of conflict requires a state; it's a fight over who's going to control it.

Anarchism would solve the problem, in fact, by abolishing the position over which the civil war is being fought.
New Granada
24-11-2006, 01:33
Only if you have no clue about anarchism. This kind of conflict requires a state; it's a fight over who's going to control it.

Anarchism would solve the problem, in fact, by abolishing the position over which the civil war is being fought.

"Understanding" anarchism is sort of like "understanding" angels.

It is a matter of belief and an act of faith to believe in anarchism, not something which can be evaluated reasonably. Upon reasonable evaluation, "anarchism" dissolves as the fantasy that it is.

That's why it isnt taken seriously by anyone but delusional academics, kids, and kids who wont grow up.
Soheran
24-11-2006, 01:36
"Understanding" anarchism is sort of like "understanding" angels.

It is a matter of belief and an act of faith to believe in anarchism, not something which can be evaluated reasonably. Upon reasonable evaluation, "anarchism" dissolves as the fantasy that it is.

That's why it isnt taken seriously by anyone but delusional academics, kids, and kids who wont grow up.

Do you have something actually resembling an argument?
New Granada
24-11-2006, 01:40
Do you have something actually resembling an argument?

The forum has a search feature if you're interested in arguments againt anarchism or angels or christianity or whatever. It's all been gone over a hundred times on this forum alone.

A cursory survey of human history is sufficient, at any rate.
Greyenivol Colony
24-11-2006, 01:41
What's sadder is that the kid who runs all the way does not even get the bottle....

Yeah, that was sad. I guess that whole episode wasn't too unlike how that soldier probably treats his little brother back home... the difference being that kid was probably very VERY thirsty.

Although, flicking through some of those videos there are some instances of Americans behaving in quite a civilised way, which is always good to see, even if it isn't all-pervasive.
Soheran
24-11-2006, 01:41
The forum has a search feature if you're interested in arguments againt anarchism or angels or christianity or whatever. It's all been gone over a hundred times on this forum alone.

A cursory survey of human history is sufficient, at any rate.

No? Didn't think so.

Edit: For what it's worth, not only have I participated in many of those discussions, but I have read several of the threads in which I did not participate.

I remain an anarchist.
New Granada
24-11-2006, 01:42
No? Didn't think so.

The forum has a search feature if you're interested in arguments againt anarchism or angels or christianity or whatever. It's all been gone over a hundred times on this forum alone.
Aryavartha
24-11-2006, 01:49
Yeah, that was sad. I guess that whole episode wasn't too unlike how that soldier probably treats his little brother back home... the difference being that kid was probably very VERY thirsty.

It is hard to believe that any decent person would be treating anybody in that manner. If the roles were reversed, we would be hearing about how barbaric and uncivilized Iraqis are....with scholarly looking people on TV telling us about the culture (or lack thereof) of those poor sods which is making them behave in such an inhumane manner....


Although, flicking through some of those videos there are some instances of Americans behaving in quite a civilised way, which is always good to see, even if it isn't all-pervasive.

Yeah. But it is the ones like the above that stick and spread. It is the nature of it. Bad news spreads far and wide. That's why people in sensitive positions should be extra damn careful about what they say and do...
Aryavartha
25-11-2006, 07:46
Shi'ite reprisal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112401317.html
In Iraq, Reprisals Embolden Militias
Shiites Attack Sunni Mosques to Avenge Mass Killings; Lawmakers Threaten Boycott

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, November 25, 2006; A01

BAGHDAD, Nov. 24 -- In a wave of reprisal killings, Shiite militiamen attacked Sunni mosques in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq on Friday, defying a government curfew and propelling the country further toward full-blown civil war.

The exacting of revenge for the deaths of more than 200 Shiites on Thursday came as powerful politicians linked to radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr threatened to pull out of Iraq's coalition government if Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki attends a scheduled meeting with President Bush next week in Amman, Jordan. A boycott by loyalists of Sadr, on whom Maliki relies for political support, could upend Iraq's fragile unity government.

Friday's attacks illustrated Iraqi security forces' inability to rein in violence, at a time when U.S. leaders want them to take greater responsibility for the country's security, a vital benchmark for any strategy to withdraw U.S. troops.

In the mixed Hurriyah neighborhood, Shiite militiamen torched at least five Sunni mosques on Islam's holiest prayer day, police and residents reported. Other mosques were attacked by gunmen spraying bullets from the rooftops of nearby houses, witnesses said.

In one mosque, militiamen detonated a cooking gas cylinder. In another, they declared that it was now a husseiniya, a Shiite mosque, and posted pictures of Sadr, whose stronghold of Sadr City was attacked Thursday. At least 18 people were killed Friday and 24 injured in the mosque attacks in Hurriyah, said Adil Mahmoud, a physician from al-Nouman Hospital in the nearby Adhamiyah neighborhood.

"They started attacking with grenades and RPGs," said Abu Abdallah, the imam at one of the attacked mosques, referring to rocket-propelled grenades. "Then shooting started from nearby houses. Then they entered and burned the mosque before they left." Abdallah, interviewed by telephone, asked that his mosque not be named. "I might be killed," he said.

In the Ghazaliya neighborhood, at least eight mortar shells hit a mosque run by the Association of Muslim Scholars, one of the most outspoken defenders of Iraq's Sunni Arab minority since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion. The house of worship is one of Baghdad's best-known.

Northeast of the capital, Shiite gunmen in Baqubah opened fire at a Sunni mosque during Friday prayers, killing a mosque guard, said imam Osama al-Ani. Near the northern city of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb exploded in front of one of the biggest Sunni mosques in the area, injuring five people and damaging the building, according to police.

Meanwhile, in the northwestern city of Tall Afar, two bombs exploded near a car dealership, killing 22 people and wounding more than 40 others, police said.

The scale of Friday's revenge attacks was smaller than the wave of killings by Shiite militiamen after the bombing of the Shiite shrine in Samarra in February. That bombing triggered cycles of retaliation that further ruptured the bonds between Iraq's two major sects.

U.S. troops bolstered their patrols on Friday, flying helicopters over Sadr City and operating checkpoints. One helicopter destroyed a rocket launcher manned by a Shiite crew that had fired six rockets into the Sunni neighborhood of Adhamiyah, near the Abu Hanifa mosque, one of the most revered Sunni shrines in Baghdad, the military said.

Friday's attacks unfolded in the aftermath of the bombs, mortars and missiles that hit Sadr City on Thursday in the deadliest single assault on Iraqi civilians since the U.S.-led invasion began. The death toll in those attacks rose to more than 200. Thousands of mourners, flanked by minivans carrying wooden coffins, paraded solemnly through Sadr City on Friday, paying last respects before the dead were taken to the southern Shiite holy city of Najaf for burial.

Later, in an address after the midday prayer, members of Sadr's political party denounced the U.S. military, saying its presence was the reason for Iraq's escalating violence. They demanded a U.S. withdrawal or, at least, a timetable for the troops to leave, a demand echoed by Sadr in his Friday sermon at his mosque in the southern city of Kufa.

In previous periods of tension, Sadr loyalists have threatened to walk out of the government. Still, the current climate is unlike anything Iraq has experienced since the invasion. The attacks on Sadr City appeared to embolden Sadr and his followers as they try to capitalize on Thursday's carnage, which Shiite leaders, including Maliki, have blamed on Sunni Arab insurgents.

As long as such attacks continue, and as long as Iraqi security forces are ineffective in providing security, Sadr can justify the existence of his Mahdi Army militia.

"If the prime minister does not give up his intention to meet Bush the criminal in Amman, we will suspend our membership at the council of representatives and the government," Salih al-Ighaeli, head of Sadr's bloc in parliament, told a solemn crowd gathered on the street in front of Sadr's headquarters.

Ali Adeeb, a member of parliament and close Maliki aide, said the Sadr camp was trying to apply pressure tactics, but that the meeting would take place as planned.

The meeting between Bush and Maliki comes at a politically sensitive moment for both leaders. Bush is under pressure from Democrats who have won control of both the House and Senate to come up with a viable strategy to tamp down Iraq's violence and open the way for U.S. troops to come home.

As the sectarian divide within his government widens, Maliki is under U.S. pressure to disarm the Shiite militias, a step the U.S. military believes is needed to tame the violence. But the very people who control the militias, such as Sadr, are key political figures in Maliki's government, capable of causing his downfall.

Friday's reprisal attacks underscore how powerful the Mahdi Army and other militias have become in Iraq, operating above the law, spreading violence even under an indefinite 24-hour lockdown of the capital.

By Friday evening, the attacks were still unfolding. With no other alternative, many Sunnis were hoping for the intervention of U.S. forces.

"Up till now we are waiting for the American forces, and they haven't shown up yet," said Salman al-Zobaye, imam of al-Hashab mosque, in a telephone interview. An attack on the mosque by Shiite militiamen killed four guards.

Throughout Friday, rumors of new atrocities committed against Sunnis floated across Baghdad, including one in which six Sunnis were doused with kerosene and torched to death in Hurriyah. But two local imams, in an interview, denied such an attack took place.

But there was no shortage of confirmed incidents. In Hurriyah, militiamen Friday morning expelled Sunni families who were living near tea warehouses, and more than 90 Sunni families received letters threatening them if they did not leave their houses within 72 hours, authorities said.

In the Amiriyah neighborhood, Sunnis started to form neighborhood militias under the guidance of local clerics to protect themselves. By Friday evening, 25 volunteers signed up, and those without weapons were handed AK-47 rifles, residents said.

By nightfall, the imams of mosques in three Sunni neighborhoods -- Ghazaliya, Amiriyah and Adhamiyah made a joint announcement to their followers.

"We would like to ask you to take care and be careful for the next hours of tonight," they said. "Open fire toward any gunman who enters the city, such as the Mahdi Army, except the Americans, because they will come to protect the people from the death squads and guard the neighborhood."

The imams gave one more piece of advice to their followers: Open fire on any members of the mostly Shiite police forces. What happened in Hurriyah, the imams alleged, was done with their help.
Nonexistentland
25-11-2006, 22:50
Not really. The idea with anarchism is that people get together in groups based on agreement with each other on how to life together.

In this case it's more a matter of everyone trying to prove that they're the most coercive of the bunch.

Correct. We do, however, have anarchy in action in Iraq, which is what is described above.