NationStates Jolt Archive

Would the world be a better place if humans had never learnt how to lie?

No more lying politicians ... but no more escaping "does my butt look big in this"

Not sure where fiction fits into this. Do you need to be able to lie in order to have fiction? I would think not.. but I am no philosopher.

EDIT: By not being able to lie I mean not conciously lie. So you could say something that wasn't true as long as you believed it to be true.

Education would be impossilbe. As Terry Pratchett in his 'Science of the Discworld' points out, all education is lieing to children, you just get closer to the truth the older they get.

And the whole human existance is based on lies that we tell our selves.

Nope, lieing is a huge part of human sociality.
Without it we'd all be dead right now because we told the truth and the other guy got mad at us and since this is caveman era, whacked us over the head with a club.

The Truth shall set you free

The Truth shall set you free

Liar!

Which brings me to another point. Without lies, gone would be the taunts of 'Liar, liar, pants on fire.'

And that would be a devestating blow to American culture.

I mean, nothing else really works. Drier, drier, pants on fire?

Mike Mayers, Mike Mayers, pants on fires?

Nope, lieing is a huge part of human sociality.
Without it we'd all be dead right now because we told the truth and the other guy got mad at us and since this is caveman era, whacked us over the head with a club.

But if you lie to someone and they find out then you get clubbed and possibly your children get clubbed....

Besides if you knew you couldn't lie maybe you would be less inclined to do something that might get you clubbed?

But if you lie to someone and they find out then you get clubbed and possibly your children get clubbed....

Ah but they have to find out first.

Ah but they have to find out first.

Exactly.
And by the way, they don't suspect you lied unless you're a bad liar or they already know the answer anyway.

Well... yes. But people can still be ebul in other ways.

Lies are in our nature.

Our entire persona is based off of the lies we create to cover our weak spots.

A person without their lies is a person who may as well be dead, because they will be unable to cope.

Would the world be a better place if humans had never learnt how to lie?

No more lying politicians ... but no more escaping "does my butt look big in this"

Not sure where fiction fits into this. Do you need to be able to lie in order to have fiction? I would think not.. but I am no philosopher.

EDIT: By not being able to lie I mean not conciously lie. So you could say something that wasn't true as long as you believed it to be true.We wouldn't have any more privacy. That would suck a bit.

Lies are in our nature.

Our entire persona is based off of the lies we create to cover our weak spots.

A person without their lies is a person who may as well be dead, because they will be unable to cope.

I mean I kind of agree... but then people are always demanding the "truth". Surely if lying were so intrinsic a part of what makes us humans then the "truth" would be an anathema to most people....

If all people are is a collection of memories (memories that appear to be reconstructed everytime we revisit them) then surely people could develop defense mechanisms without lying.

Obviously this is all hypothetical anyway. As has all ready been pointed out people aren't gonna stop lying.. but I am just interested to see whether people see lies as a good thing on the whole or a bad thing...

We wouldn't have any more privacy. That would suck a bit.

If someone asks you what you did yesterday or something even more private... you don't HAVE to lie. You could just avoid the question...

Education would be impossilbe. As Terry Pratchett in his 'Science of the Discworld' points out, all education is lieing to children, you just get closer to the truth the older they get.
Most overrated drivel, ever.

I certainly wouldn't like a world without lies. To maintain social relationships with the people I loathe, lying is essential.

If someone asks you what you did yesterday or something even more private... you don't HAVE to lie. You could just avoid the question...

That just arouses suspicion.


...I swear I'm not spelling that right...

I mean I kind of agree... but then people are always demanding the "truth". Surely if lying were so intrinsic a part of what makes us humans then the "truth" would be an anathema to most people....

If all people are is a collection of memories (memories that appear to be reconstructed everytime we revisit them) then surely people could develop defense mechanisms without lying.

Obviously this is all hypothetical anyway. As has all ready been pointed out people aren't gonna stop lying.. but I am just interested to see whether people see lies as a good thing on the whole or a bad thing...


Oh, a negative thing, no doubt, but that is irrelevant, since they are a part of the human psyche. To abolish them would be to destroy civilization, and eventually humanity.

People demand the truth, but all they really want is a more convenient lie.

While it would be ideal for no more lies, in reality, it isn't possible, especially when people believe in lies, lies that are so powerful they seem to be true. Religion is one big lie.

While it would be ideal for no more lies, in reality, it isn't possible, especially when people believe in lies, lies that are so powerful they seem to be true. Religion is one big lie.

But surely its not a lie if you think its true?

Its only a lie if you know what you are saying is not true. Otherwise its simply a misunderstanding.

I mean memory can play tricks on you. I distinctly remember a toy car I used to cruise around in as a kid as being blue. But I saw it the other day in my (EDIT: Parents garage.. not an intentional lie.. just mistyped it) garage.. and it was red... It was a real shock to me. If you had asked me what colour it was under a polygraph I am sure I could have answered blue and passed with flying colours.. I don't think I would have been lying. Just wrong.

Of course if I said blue now I would be lying..

While it would be ideal for no more lies, in reality, it isn't possible, especially when people believe in lies, lies that are so powerful they seem to be true. Religion is one big lie.

...and this has anything to do with the thread?

Oh, a negative thing, no doubt, but that is irrelevant, since they are a part of the human psyche. To abolish them would be to destroy civilization, and eventually humanity.

People demand the truth, but all they really want is a more convenient lie.

So why are they a bad thing if they are such an important part of our survival mechanism?

Why do lies have such a bad rap?

...and this has anything to do with the thread?
Well... the OP did say no more lies.

Would the world be a better place if humans had never learnt how to lie?

This assumes that lying is not innate behaviour, and that humans learned to lie. There's an underlying assumption there that other animals do not lie.

The latter is certainly untrue. We know other primates lie. There is question as to how much intent is involved in other animals.

The second seems to be false as well, from what I know.

Deception is well documenteds throught the animal kingdom. In primates, intentional deception is a very deep-seated, evolved, innate behaviour, not a learned one.

Here're some papers on the subject:
http://www.cop.es/papeles/english/1246.pdf
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/05/frankel.pdf

Would spinning the truth still be okay? I do that instead of lying.

This assumes that lying is not innate behaviour, and that humans learned to lie. There's an underlying assumption there that other animals do not lie.

The latter is certainly untrue. We know other primates lie. There is question as to how much intent is involved in other animals.

The second seems to be false as well, from what I know.

Deception is well documenteds throught the animal kingdom. In primates, intentional deception is a very deep-seated, evolved, innate behaviour, not a learned one.

Here're some papers on the subject:
http://www.cop.es/papeles/english/1246.pdf
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/05/frankel.pdf

Just because other animals also lie does not make it innate behaviour. Very young children can not lie. Their first lies arrive around 2 (Link (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=702)) It takes a lot of practice to learn how to lie. Deception is most definitly a learned ( or at least partially learned) behaviour. The ability to lie arrives in pretty distinct stages in children. Being able to lie involves some very complicated psycological processes including first and formost self awareness, which is generally accepted (though I tend not to agree) as being what sets our psyches apart from other species.

Its all kind of irrelevant though as its a hyperthetical question. I will rephrase the question for you if it will make you more comfortable. "Would human society be better if people didn't lie?

I think we would be much better off if we were incapable of malicious lies. As has been pointed out, people frequently "lie" with no intent to harm or deceive others - for example, when we simplify concepts so that small children can understand them. Saying things that may not necessarily be strictly true is not a terrible problem; saying things one knows to be false with the intent of harming another person and/or protecting oneself from the consequences of one's own actions is. A world where no one did the latter would be wonderful.

Would the world be a better place if humans had never learnt how to lie?

No more lying politicians ... but no more escaping "does my butt look big in this"

Not sure where fiction fits into this. Do you need to be able to lie in order to have fiction? I would think not.. but I am no philosopher.

EDIT: By not being able to lie I mean not conciously lie. So you could say something that wasn't true as long as you believed it to be true.

I blame Eve and that bloody snake!

I blame Eve and that bloody snake!
I have had it with this motherforking snake in this motherforking garden!

I think we would be much better off if we were incapable of malicious lies. As has been pointed out, people frequently "lie" with no intent to harm or deceive others - for example, when we simplify concepts so that small children can understand them. Saying things that may not necessarily be strictly true is not a terrible problem; saying things one knows to be false with the intent of harming another person and/or protecting oneself from the consequences of one's own actions is. A world where no one did the latter would be wonderful.

Yeah .. I think it can be tough to define when a lie is malicious. What if I lie to protect someone. Say my son beats up some guy who hit his girlfriend and is going to go to prison. Would it be a malicious lie for me to say that I did it so that I would go to prison instead of him?

I think for the purpose of the question its easier to just rule out all intentional lies all together.. it just gets too complicated otherwise. I mean its a tough enough question as it is :)

So why are they a bad thing if they are such an important part of our survival mechanism?

Why do lies have such a bad rap?

They are a bad thing because they prevent people from moving foward and accepting their own nature.

They have a bad rep becauase we've given the name of "truth" to more convenient lies, and so the less convenient ones are seen as horrible and terrible.

I never lie.

Lying isn't always bad. Let's say you're living in Nazi Germany and you have several Jewish friends who are in hiding. Some SS officers come to your house and ask if you know any Jews. Do you lie and say no to save your friends, or tell the truth?

I never lie.

Yeah, and I'm never sarcastic.

Yeah, and I'm never sarcastic.

Really? That's good. I dislike sarcasm, that's why I never use it myself.

I never lie.

Was wondering how long it would take for that one to surface :D

If someone asks you what you did yesterday or something even more private... you don't HAVE to lie. You could just avoid the question...
Even better: You could simply tell him that you don't want to tell him. That's even the truth, if you don't want to tell them about your private life.

Anyway, I say yes. I believe that to be the truth.

(Who would answer questions like "does this make me look fat" anyway?!? If you hear that, simply run. Or turn deaf. Anything you do is wrong, actually.)

OF course we can't live without lies! In a world without lies, Bush wouldn't be able to be president!

OF course we can't live without lies! In a world without lies, Bush wouldn't be able to be president!


You win.

I never lie.

Me neither. Never, ever ever. Nope. Not lying now. Absolutely not. No.

Situation 1A: Girl talking to Drug Dealer (with lying)

"You want a smoke?"

"I can't. My boyfriend said I have to be home in a minute. He'll do bad things to me again if I don't go back"

"Ok"

Situation 1B: Girl talking to Drug Dealer (without lying):

"You want a smoke?"

"No thanks. I want to stay away from that stuff; it's bad for my teeth"

*5 days later*
"Today, a girl was found with her head cut off in a dumpster".

Yeah, I think lying is good sometimes...