NationStates Jolt Archive

I order to save another thread from being taken over by this discussion between Otagia & myself I have made this thread. I agree that in the Old Testament killing was not only OK but in some cases required by God because Jesus Christ had not yet come. However the point I am attempting to make here is that the coming of Jesus changed that fact, as is reflected in the New Testament.

there is a difference between killing and murder, murder was not okay in the OT according to the law passed to Moses by God. Killing is often neccessary and still is today.

Only on tuesdays.

I agree that in the Old Testament killing was not only OK but in some cases required by God because Jesus Christ had not yet come.
"Thou shalt not murder". Not "Thou shalt not kill, unless I require it" or "Thou shalt not murder, but the citizens of Jericho are fair game". No. However, this doesn't rule out capital sentences or just war in mainstream christian theology.

However the point I am attempting to make here is that the coming of Jesus changed that fact, as is reflected in the New Testament.

Sure. Because Jesus says (more or less): "I was thirsty, and you gave me water; I was hungry, and you gave me food (etc)". The pious people answer "we did never to such things to you" and Jesus says "every time you did this to any other man, you did it to me". That is, by Jesus' message, the life of any man has the same value of the life of God himself (since Jesus is also God in Christian theology). This way, killing is not acceptable - it is a sin.

"Thou shalt not murder". Not "Thou shalt not kill, unless I require it" or "Thou shalt not murder, but the citizens of Jericho are fair game". No. However, this doesn't rule out capital sentences or just war in mainstream christian theology.



Sure. Because Jesus says (more or less): "I was thirsty, and you gave me water; I was hungry, and you gave me food (etc)". The pious people answer "we did never to such things to you" and Jesus says "every time you did this to any other man, you did it to me". That is, by Jesus' message, the life of any man has the same value of the life of God himself (since Jesus is also God in Christian theology). This way, killing is not acceptable - it is a sin.

I was taught that it's "thou shalt not kill".

I was taught that it's "thou shalt not kill".

it depends on the translation as to the word they use, but the original word meant to kill without authority to do so (like if I went over and shot my neighbor in the head as opposed to fighting in a war)

Sure. Because Jesus says (more or less): "I was thirsty, and you gave me water; I was hungry, and you gave me food (etc)". The pious people answer "we did never to such things to you" and Jesus says "every time you did this to any other man, you did it to me". That is, by Jesus' message, the life of any man has the same value of the life of God himself (since Jesus is also God in Christian theology). This way, killing is not acceptable - it is a sin.
that's totally not the point of that story.......

that's totally not the point of that story.......

It is. Caring about people is the next important thing in christian religion - the first being recognising Jesus as saviour and son of God. And killing a person isn't likely to be "caring about people", don't you think so?

there is a difference between killing and murder, murder was not okay in the OT according to the law passed to Moses by God. Killing is often neccessary and still is today.

But murder is only murder in respect to the law
It is the ILLEGAL taking of a human life

And as far as I know god did not set down any further rule as to when killing was legal or not

As such is that commandment completely useless? At least as an absolute marker point.

It is. Caring about people is the next important thing in christian religion - the first being recognising Jesus as saviour and son of God. And killing a person isn't likely to be "caring about people", don't you think so?

Then why is it so commonly endorsed by god ... even the killing of children showed up fairly often in the OT

Is it possible that the commandment "thou shalt not murder" means that you cannot kill unless you're being attacked and you kill your attacker in self-defense?

Is it possible that the commandment "thou shalt not murder" means that you cannot kill unless you're being attacked and you kill your attacker in self-defense?

Very possibly ... but I am not sure it defines that anywhere.

Maybe thou shalt not murder means no killing unless god commands it, or maybe it means accidental killing is alright
I dont know, for being one of the commandments it is rather fuzzly defined.

I order to save another thread from being taken over by this discussion between Otagia & myself I have made this thread. I agree that in the Old Testament killing was not only OK but in some cases required by God because Jesus Christ had not yet come. However the point I am attempting to make here is that the coming of Jesus changed that fact, as is reflected in the New Testament.

As with the New Testament, the Old Testament was written by different people. It also looks as if the flood story is a more sensible version of something on one of the Gilgamesh tablets which were written earlier. Thus, Jesus came to correct stuff (as in Matthew 5) and preached non-violence. So nope, the Bible doesn't OK killing.

I was taught that it's "thou shalt not kill".

As was I, I've noticed religious folks are often very flexible on the point of killing. There's no real justified killing because as I recall Jesus was big on the judging not.

Very possibly ... but I am not sure it defines that anywhere.

Maybe thou shalt not murder means no killing unless god commands it, or maybe it means accidental killing is alright
I dont know, for being one of the commandments it is rather fuzzly defined.

there are verses in the OT that discuss what to do when you accidentally kill someone I am too busy pre-cooking for tomorrow to pull out my Bible and find them though.... the word in the original texts (can't remember it right now) deals with premeditated killing of someone, not like when you are in war or in self defense or by accident (which we could get into the discussion of war being premeditated esp. when God says "go kill everyone" but I would rather not get off topic)

Is it possible that the commandment "thou shalt not murder" means that you cannot kill unless you're being attacked and you kill your attacker in self-defense?

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

there are verses in the OT that discuss what to do when you accidentally kill someone I am too busy pre-cooking for tomorrow to pull out my Bible and find them though.... the word in the original texts (can't remember it right now) deals with premeditated killing of someone, not like when you are in war or in self defense or by accident (which we could get into the discussion of war being premeditated esp. when God says "go kill everyone" but I would rather not get off topic)

There are also versus discussing the restitution if you are caught raping someone

But in either case there are counter examples for almost everything in the OT. And no where is there any CLEAR supporting evidence for these main rules

God very clearly sets down 10 rules, but some (specialy murder) is not supported in this tablet, and by deffinition is culturaly relitive

Seems rather bad Idea to me

There are also versus discussing the restitution if you are caught raping someone

But in either case there are counter examples for almost everything in the OT. And no where is there any CLEAR supporting evidence for these main rules

God very clearly sets down 10 rules, but some (specialy murder) is not supported in this tablet, and by deffinition is culturaly relitive

Seems rather bad Idea to me

I wouldn't just go around killing people, it's a pretty bad idea anyway.

If I have to kill someone in self defense I guess I am happy that I am under grace.

As was I, I've noticed religious folks are often very flexible on the point of killing. There's no real justified killing because as I recall Jesus was big on the judging not.



I agree ... if you judge not. Then you have no reason to kill in the first place.

I wouldn't just go around killing people, it's a pretty bad idea anyway.

If I have to kill someone in self defense I guess I am happy that I am under grace.

Agreed.

BUT I was keeping it within the realm of the bible rather then my personal morals

There are also versus discussing the restitution if you are caught raping someone

But in either case there are counter examples for almost everything in the OT. And no where is there any CLEAR supporting evidence for these main rules

God very clearly sets down 10 rules, but some (specialy murder) is not supported in this tablet, and by deffinition is culturaly relitive

Seems rather bad Idea to me

WHICH ten rules? There are three versions of "the Ten Commandments" in the one book of the Bible!

WHICH ten rules? There are three versions of "the Ten Commandments" in the one book of the Bible!

Not to mention Jesus only lists 6.

while what is said in the Bible may act as a guide surely as a species we have the maturity to recognise that killing people is fundementally always a last last resort and only for situations where the alternative may be the death or servere harm of another.

If you believe in an almighty being then surely it is only his/her/their responsibility to take life. If your god or gods demand blood letting perhaps the concept of godliness is wrong.

If not then lets debate the realities of killing, dying for the:
killer, the killed, the family and friends, victims and so on.

WHICH ten rules? There are three versions of "the Ten Commandments" in the one book of the Bible!

True very true

Not to mention Jesus only lists 6.

Which adds another layer of complexity, which rules are transitioning to the new era. Some people like to let some of the OT rules slip by and not others with no apparent logic

Agreed.

BUT I was keeping it within the realm of the bible rather then my personal morals

yeah, I can't do that and win this debate though..........:p


(you know since I am too busy to think today......yeah)

yeah, I can't do that and win this debate though..........:p


(you know since I am too busy to think today......yeah)

Yeah ... I just have too much time on my hands lol

I order to save another thread from being taken over by this discussion between Otagia & myself I have made this thread. I agree that in the Old Testament killing was not only OK but in some cases required by God because Jesus Christ had not yet come. However the point I am attempting to make here is that the coming of Jesus changed that fact, as is reflected in the New Testament.

One simply can't go revisionist over differences between the New Test. and Old Test. Both are written by men, and neither are inerrant.

Jesus actually advocated the death penalty. For example

"Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4
"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mark 7:8-11

He also affirmed capital punishment against murderers in Rev. 13:10, 1 Tim. 1:8-9, and Rom. 13:4. Also, Paul is not against the death penalty.

"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11

Who is this Jesus person you speak of?