NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html

Just when I thought I saw it all, I see this. I guess you're never too old to be a criminal eh?

Shooting at police=>Mistake
Shooting at police while being a 92 year old woman=>Bigger mistake

She shot three of the cops before they killed her, impressive strike rate. :eek:

Crime never gets old.

Crime never gets old.

=win

Shooting at police=>Mistake

Unless you got an AK-108, a knapsack full of clips and no desire to see the end of the week.

Eh.


No-knock warrant again?

How many people have to die before people get it that no-knock warrants are a bad, bad, bad idea?

Eh.


No-knock warrant again?

How many people have to die before people get it that no-knock warrants are a bad, bad, bad idea?

I imagine thet it's not as big a deal in countries where the whole population aren't armed to the teeth. If I was a cop in the US though I'd be fairly cautious about serving one.

She shot three of the cops before they killed her, impressive strike rate.

Indeed, indeed.

No-knock warrant again?

That seems to be in question at the moment.

Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door. He said they were justified in shooting once they were fired upon.

As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m. Monday, a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them, said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.

One was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said.

Sarah Dozier, identified as a niece of the woman, told WAGA-TV that there were never any drugs at the house.

"My aunt was in good health. I'm sure she panicked when they kicked that door down," Dozier said. "There was no reason they had to go in there and shoot her down like a dog."

If the police did kick the door down unannounced, more power to granny, and I hope her surviving family sues the hell out of the city of Atlanta and the officers involved go down on criminal charges. If they did knock, thems the breaks. If you initiate the violence, you gotta bear the responsibility, whether you be cops or citizen.

(And that's not even to get into the issue of the evil "war on drugs" that resulted in the whole affair.)

I hope that when I'm 92 I have the gumption to shoot at cops. And the sense not to.

I hope that when I'm 92 I have the gumption to shoot at cops. And the sense not to.

How do we know she knew they were cops.

People bust your door open in the middle of the night, no knock, no thing, wearing black outfits and carrying guns.

I know I would shoot.

"Of the police brutality cases we've had, this is the most egregious because of the woman's age," Hutchins said.

What the hell? How is it more egregious to shoot dead a woman of that age (who, lets face it, was at death's door anyway), than to shoot a fifteen year old kid!?

If the old fossil did put three bullets into the police officers, then they were completely justified in stopping her before she killed someone.

How do we know she knew they were cops.

People bust your door open in the middle of the night, no knock, no thing, wearing black outfits and carrying guns.

I know I would shoot.

Maybe she got a hint from
the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door.

"Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door."

That seems to be a key bit you omitted.

Something is fishy here.

Did they even find drugs?

"the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door."

In a whispering tone?
Yes, they knocked lightly and whispered that they were the police :rolleyes:

Something is fishy here.

Did they even find drugs?

It doesn't say, though her niece claims there were never drugs in the house.

"Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door."

That seems to be a key bit you omitted.
What's key about that?

Yes, they knocked lightly and whispered that they were the police

Hey, there have been cases where this has been done, and people have sued the police over it, and won.

Also, I edited slightly after reading the article proper.

What's key about that?

It's not necessarily true (CNN doesn't commit to it, apparently). They're only comitting to the fact that this guy said it.

Hey, there have been cases where this has been done, and people have sued the police over it, and won.

Also, I edited slightly after reading the article proper.

I know, I quoted you again.

It's not necessarily true (CNN doesn't commit to it, apparently). They're only comitting to the fact that this guy said it.

There's no evidence to the contrary that I've seen.

There's no evidence to the contrary that I've seen.

And there is also no evidence to confirm.

Why do you think the neighbors are so distressed?

The Neighbors are distressed for the same friggin reason I am or anyone with one ounce of compassion is.....a 92 year old lady was shot.

BUT ...even the neighbors know she was SHOT because she SHOT 3 cops she chose a gun fight.
At WHAT FUCKIN POINT do you think the badges and the uniforms and the flashing lights sunk into the 92 year old head and through the eyes good enough to shoot three cops ?

She didn't have to Shoot the cops she CHOSE to . And you go ahead and jump to the conclusion that they stormed the place...if you had a clue..and they did indeed storm the place

Thats where the compassion subsides a bit and the acceptance comes in.


You know the part of the brain the has REASON and LOGIC in it ?


" I fought the law and the LAW won " ...sing it for me ...:rolleyes:

" I fought the law and the LAW won " ...sing it for me ...:rolleyes:

Not everybody who shoots cops deserves to get shot.

Cory Maye, anybody?

Not everybody who shoots cops deserves to get shot.

Cory Maye, anybody?

Pardon my ignorance, but who?

The Neighbors are distressed for the same friggin reason I am or anyone with one ounce of compassion is.....a 92 year old lady was shot.

BUT ...even the neighbors know she was SHOT because she SHOT 3 cops she chose a gun fight.
At WHAT FUCKIN POINT do you think the badges and the uniforms and the flashing lights sunk into the 92 year old head and through the eyes good enough to shoot three cops ?

She didn't have to Shoot the cops she CHOSE to . And you go ahead and jump to the conclusion that they stormed the place...if you had a clue..and they did indeed storm the place

Thats where the compassion subsides a bit and the acceptance comes in.


You know the part of the brain the has REASON and LOGIC in it ?


" I fought the law and the LAW won " ...sing it for me ...:rolleyes:

Well it's still open to question what exactly happened. If indeed it played out in the manner you describe, yes, it's a stupid tragedy. If it turns out it went down like other people say, as I said above, sue the hell out of the city of Atlanta, and take down the cops on criminal charges.

http://wsbradio.com/news/112106officersshot.html
"Dreher says their agents, who were in plain clothes, have been on the force for some time, and were justified in the shooting."

""It looks like everything was done by the book. They had a search warrant. It was for the proper address. They knocked and announced and they forced the door when there was no response at the door," said Dreher."

Hmm, very plausable that a 92 year old woman would not hear them knock or 'announce.' Bust down the door, and ya get what you deserve it seems like. Too bad for the old lady, she sounded like a tough cookie.

And yes, I'm presuming she's innocent of any drug charges because this is America.

Here's a good quote from the article:
"I'm sure she panicked. Just two weeks ago, it was on the news, somebody kicked the door in and yelled 'Arrest: Fulton County Sheriffs.' It was a break-in, a robbery, and I'm sure all of this went through her mind," said Dozier."

Certinaly helps to make her actions seem reasonable.

http://www.cbs46.com/ link to the vid on their main page.

See the cops wearing stocking cap masks. When cops wear masks... well, nuff said.

There is BIG fallout on this...........

My thoughts are that this little old lady was allowing some crack head grandson or nephew to live there, and the cops saw drug activity. The cops were scoping the place out and watching the activity.

That's a NASTY, NASTY part of town and I feel bad for the old woman who died, but I also feel sorry for the police. They were just doing their job.

Three guys not in uniform claiming to be cops kick down my door, I'll shoot the fuckers too. They were wearing ski masks? That's horseshit.

Good for her on scoring 5 hits on the bastards.

snip

The thing is, she obviously did hear them knock. That is the only scenario that would have allowed a frail 92-year old woman to go and get her gun in time. Unless of course she keeps it on her person at all times, which seems unlikely to me.

The thing is, she obviously did hear them knock. That is the only scenario that would have allowed a frail 92-year old woman to go and get her gun in time. Unless of course she keeps it on her person at all times, which seems unlikely to me.

If you lived in a neighborhood where you had iron bars on the windows at age 92 and lived alone you'd keep a gun handy too.

Three guys not in uniform claiming to be cops kick down my door, I'll shoot the fuckers too. They were wearing ski masks? That's horseshit.

Good for her on scoring 5 hits on the bastards.

Plain-clothes officers in ski masks? Oh yeah, that's not fucking suspicious.

The thing is, she obviously did hear them knock. That is the only scenario that would have allowed a frail 92-year old woman to go and get her gun in time. Unless of course she keeps it on her person at all times, which seems unlikely to me.

My grandma was 94 living by herself in a 3 story farm house ... she could move faster then me

Couldn't hear worth shit but she could move. If she kept it bed side (specially after there had been robberys in the area that the people had announced themselfs as cops)

Plain-clothes officers in ski masks? Oh yeah, that's not fucking suspicious.

i'd use a 12 ga on them, and hopefully some head shots or ar 15 if i could get it


masked guys in plain clothes are BURGLERS BENT ON HOME INVASION - matters not what they said unless on video tape

rant over

granny may be really guilty, but you break in my house and i've not done anything - those sobs are gonna pay and maybe wife wins wrongful death suit too
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

I can't find a source for them wearing ski masks. Anyone?

I can't find a source for them wearing ski masks. Anyone?

Me either, but I don't particularly find un-uniformed cops breaking the door down in a bad neighborhood like that in a local that had break in's where the perpetrators claimed to be cops to be a very smart move on the cops part. Specially with a very likely hearing impaired grandma.

I cant really fault her from what I know

I can't find a source for them wearing ski masks. Anyone?

Oh sorry from the posted link

http://www.cbs46.com/global/story.asp?s=5718313

The video I think they were talking about the masks/caps that the cops were wearing in the video

Why were they in plain clothes? I was actually on the fence till I heard this part. So plain clothes cops kick down the door of a 92 yo in a bad neighborhood? Can you really be positive she heard the knocking, or did she just see three guys bust through her door, brandishing guns?

Oh sorry from the posted link

http://www.cbs46.com/global/story.asp?s=5718313

The video I think they were talking about the masks/caps that the cops were wearing in the video

Over 130 bullet holes and casings? Even if added together, thats 65 rounds fired. Seems she was a better shot than the police.

Oh sorry from the posted link

http://www.cbs46.com/global/story.asp?s=5718313

The video I think they were talking about the masks/caps that the cops were wearing in the video

I didn't see any cops in that video, just the neighbors reacting to the death.

Why were they in plain clothes? I was actually on the fence till I heard this part. So plain clothes cops kick down the door of a 92 yo in a bad neighborhood? Can you really be positive she heard the knocking, or did she just see three guys bust through her door, brandishing guns?

http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/statistics/hearing.asp#1

Hearing loss affects approximately 17 in 1,000 children under age 18. Incidence increases with age: Approximately 314 in 1,000 people over age 65 have hearing loss and 40 to 50 percent of people 75 and older have a hearing loss.

They had a about a 5/50 chance of her not having hearing impairment, thats even if she had the chance to hear when she was asleap

I didn't see any cops in that video, just the neighbors reacting to the death.

You kidding? they were wandering all around the scene, re watch it, most of them are in the parts with the red and blue flashing.

They cut between interviews and on scene footage at night (for example at 1:14 )

I hope the family sues their asses. They invaded a home, and they got shot. That's the way it should work.

So now we have the cops wearing ski masks...something only undercover cops do that are hardly ever part of a bust like that . Because ..THEY ARE UNDERCOVER...being in on a bust screws that up...BUT you may need an undercover on the site to be sure you identify and arrest the right person ...not to mention hit the right house..so I'll give all the conclusion jumpers a pass and figure maybe one gut with a mask may have been around.

But all thats bullshit moreshit piled high and deep .

The SECOND that GRANNY decided to get into an armed confrontation with anyone ..police ..criminals ...whomever ...SHE made the decision to put her life on the line .

Fuck this blame the cops shit . You want to be run by criminal gangs go move to fucking Russia. The Cops did the job...from every piece of info thats out on the subject ..BY THE BOOK . granny went off and SHOT them . Granny went down .

ITS GRANNYS FAULT. Her house had a back door ..she could have gone in the bathroom with her gun got into the tub and dared anyone to come get her....but NO she decide to do a Butch Cassidy.

Again ...you PICK UP A GUN ...YOU USE A GUN ...YOU DIE ..or THEY DIE ..in that situation....so BULLSHIT...on its not Grannys fault.

It was her fault and HER RESPONSIBILITY the second she decided on armed confrontation.
Thats whats real .

So now we have the cops wearing ski masks...something only undercover cops do that are hardly ever part of a bust like that . Because ..THEY ARE UNDERCOVER...being in on a bust screws that up...BUT you may need an undercover on the site to be sure you identify and arrest the right person ...not to mention hit the right house..so I'll give all the conclusion jumpers a pass and figure maybe one gut with a mask may have been around.

But all thats bullshit moreshit piled high and deep .

The SECOND that GRANNY decided to get into an armed confrontation with anyone ..police ..criminals ...whomever ...SHE made the decision to put her life on the line .

Fuck this blame the cops shit . You want to be run by criminal gangs go move to fucking Russia. The Cops did the job...from every piece of info thats out on the subject ..BY THE BOOK . granny went off and SHOT them . Granny went down .

ITS GRANNYS FAULT. Her house had a back door ..she could have gone in the bathroom with her gun got into the tub and dared anyone to come get her....but NO she decide to do a Butch Cassidy.

Again ...you PICK UP A GUN ...YOU USE A GUN ...YOU DIE ..or THEY DIE ..in that situation....so BULLSHIT...on its not Grannys fault.

It was her fault and HER RESPONSIBILITY the second she decided on armed confrontation.
Thats whats real .



Someone having a bad day?

The police were plainclothes in an area that had seen criminals claiming to be police using the same methods. The initial claims by police are that they "knocked and announced". Initial reports tend to be not always accurate.
I'll wait for final judgement until after the inquiry (I'm sure there will be one) but the onus always has to be on the police.

The SECOND that GRANNY decided to get into an armed confrontation with anyone ..police ..criminals ...whomever ...SHE made the decision to put her life on the line .


Heh that's true, so I guess anyone ever killed defending themselves is to blame for it?


Fuck this blame the cops shit . You want to be run by criminal gangs go move to fucking Russia.

Well that's funny, because in Russia many of the police (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=45649dd1310b153e&ei=7JtkRcWRIs7oHKCVmP0G&url=http%3A//www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do%3Fid%3DENGEUR460562006&cid=1111408240) ARE the criminals (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/1-0&fp=45649dd1310b153e&ei=7JtkRcWRIs7oHKCVmP0G&url=http%3A//www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/21/europe/EU_FIN_Russia_Corruption.php&cid=1111385024).

Luckily, the police in the USA are, 100%, every last one of them, angelic and virtuous and completely lawful and justified in every thing they do! God bless America, we can do no wrong, ever! ;)

Her house had a back door ..she could have gone in the bathroom with her gun got into the tub and dared anyone to come get her

Oh yeah, that's real smart. I guess you aren't exactly a teacher of home defense, that's all I can say.

It was her fault and HER RESPONSIBILITY the second she decided on armed confrontation.
Thats whats real .

Responsibility is not the same as fault.

That's what's real.

Oh yeah, that's real smart. I guess you aren't exactly a teacher of home defense, that's all I can say.


No I am not . I am an instructor in PPC. And if you had a clue you would know, the best way to survive a home invasion is to pick a defensible spot at let the criminals come to you , so you can shoot them with minimal risk to yourself and your family and will know you are not shooting other members of the family by accident ..and the tub stops bullets , because you can be shot through a wall or a door .

Get back to me when you know at least a little tiny bit about what your talking about .


Someone having a bad day?
:D

You couldn't imagine how bad...you can tell ?


Over 130 bullet holes and casings? Even if added together, thats 65 rounds fired. Seems she was a better shot than the police.


NOW ain't that the truth...It seems to always be that way...like the time they fired 190 shots at a guy in a truck in california and not only missed the TRUCK but only managed to hit they guy like four times....from 7 to 15 yards away and If you look at the video maybe closer....the worse thing they ever did was give some of these guys 15 to 18 rounds to waste ..instead of six .:rolleyes:

How do we know she knew they were cops.

People bust your door open in the middle of the night, no knock, no thing, wearing black outfits and carrying guns.

I know I would shoot.

Me too. Especially if I had no reason to expect police.


A really awful circumstance.

No I am not . I am an instructor in PPC. And if you had a clue you would know, the best way to survive a home invasion is to pick a defensible spot at let the criminals come to you , so you can shoot them with minimal risk to yourself and your family and will know you are not shooting other members of the family by accident ..and the tub stops bullets , because you can be shot through a wall or a door .

And a 92 year old woman is supposed to, when armed gunmen kick down her door, immediately pole-vault into the bathtub? After getting her gun of course.

Interesting.

Get back to me when you know at least a little tiny bit about what your talking about .

What a lovely attempt at an ad hominem. Try again, suzy. Maybe when you're having a better day.

Well, you'd think when you attempt to shoot a cop that you're gunna get pwned. I guess this granny didn't want to give up.

The SECOND that GRANNY decided to get into an armed confrontation with anyone ..police ..criminals ...whomever ...SHE made the decision to put her life on the line .

wtf? intruders burst into a 92yo woman's house, doubtless guns drawn, and the woman is probably hard of hearing anyway. On top of everything else, they weren't in uniform - and you're blaming the victim?

There's just one good thing I see coming out of this - the old lady probably wasn't going to live too much longer anyway, and at least this way she died with her boots on, AND had a chance to cause some pain to the bastards that are ruining this country with their damned Drug War. That's pretty damn impressive shooting for anyone, much less a 92yo woman - got THREE of the bastards! Someone ought to give this woman a medal - posthumously, unfortunately.

Fuck this blame the cops shit . You want to be run by criminal gangs go move to fucking Russia.

America IS run by criminal gangs - they wear blue uniforms and go around calling themselves the Police. You want to end the violence? Stop the idiotic War on Drugs. Stop all the other moralistic laws that take minor vices and make them into excuses for widespread violence.

And incidentally, you can take that bit about criminal gangs literally - in many cities, the drug trade is controlled by the police. I'm not making that up. That's what the Drug War gets you.

ITS GRANNYS FAULT. Her house had a back door

It's granny's fault 'cause she didn't cut and run at the first sign of a confrontation? Because she preferred meeting home invaders head on rather than high tailing it or pleading for her life like a good little slave?

Let's put the blame where it really belongs: On police who use tactics that make them look and act like burglars, on the idiots who keep pushing the Drug War, and on people like YOU who support this fascistic nonsense.



Baldur

and the tub stops bullets

Maybe an old cast iron tub - but I haven't seen one of those in years.

Fiberglass tubs? Wouldn't stop a BB from a high-powered air rifle.

Get back to me when you know at least a little tiny bit about what you're talking about.



Baldur

Well, you'd think when you attempt to shoot a cop that you're gunna get pwned. I guess this granny didn't want to give up.

It was far from apparent they were cops.

Guys in plain clothes kick in my door, they get shot, period. I don't care if they scream that they're Mother Theresa. You show up in Uniform or you will get shot.

It was far from apparent they were cops.

Guys in plain clothes kick in my door, they get shot, period. I don't care if they scream that they're Mother Theresa. You show up in Uniform or you will get shot.

And? The fact you'd do it means what, exactly?

And? The fact you'd do it means what, exactly?

Apparently you didn't read what I was replying to.

Apparently you didn't read what I was replying to.

Well, you'd think when you attempt to shoot a cop that you're gunna get pwned. I guess this granny didn't want to give up.

How did telling him you'd shoot at people who come into your home answer this at all?

Actually-the cops DIDNT win. They killed an old lady under terrible circumstances. Whatever criminal they were after wasnt caught or killed.
Regardless of wether they are cleared of wrongdoing or charged and convicted of a crime in connection to this, they have to live with the fact they blew an old lady away for the rest of their lives.

None of them set out that day intending to shoot an old lady.

How did telling him you'd shoot at people who come into your home answer this at all?

So did you get all 10,000 posts by asking pedantic and obvious questions?

America IS run by criminal gangs - they wear blue uniforms and go around calling themselves the Police.




This is among the stupidest things I have ever read in here. Whatever you're dependant on has erroded a major portion of whatever scrap brain cells you were issued.

So did you get all 10,000 posts by asking pedantic and obvious questions?

Nah, mostly spam. And, I reiterate:

How did telling him you'd shoot at people who come into your home answer this at all?

NOW ain't that the truth...It seems to always be that way...like the time they fired 190 shots at a guy in a truck in california and not only missed the TRUCK but only managed to hit they guy like four times....from 7 to 15 yards away and If you look at the video maybe closer....the worse thing they ever did was give some of these guys 15 to 18 rounds to waste ..instead of six .:rolleyes:

Hey, I remember something like that. In San Diego there was an attempted jewelry store robbery and the cops used the concept of spray and pray, I think there were something like over 800 rounds expended. I really remember it only because I only lived four blocks away.
It seems like the cops teach the concept of point in the general direction and pull the trigger until you are out of ammo, reload, repeat. You would think marksmanship would count for something.

maybe the problem is the NRA and the right to bear amrs

What the hell? How is it more egregious to shoot dead a woman of that age (who, lets face it, was at death's door anyway), than to shoot a fifteen year old kid!?

If the old fossil did put three bullets into the police officers, then they were completely justified in stopping her before she killed someone.

Yes. I know that when armed gunmen burst down my door and start barking orders around my first impulse is always to offer them tea and cookies and ask them about their respective days.

The police thought a 92-year old woman is a drug dealer? Why did they have to use a forced-entry technique rather than a formal request - don't tell me they EXPECTED a 92 year old woman to respond with deadly force (unless she has a history of crime)?

maybe the problem is the NRA and the right to bear amrs

http://www.jpfo.org/brasco5.jpg

http://www.jpfo.org/brasco5.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/Dragonkirby/Non-Kirby/Aurumbears.png

The police thought a 92-year old woman is a drug dealer? Why did they have to use a forced-entry technique rather than a formal request - don't tell me they EXPECTED a 92 year old woman to respond with deadly force (unless she has a history of crime)?

Thank goodness the PATRIOT Act gave law enforcement the same tools to use against terrorists that they already have to fight drug dealers.

If the police did kick the door down unannounced, more power to granny, and I hope her surviving family sues the hell out of the city of Atlanta and the officers involved go down on criminal charges. If they did knock, thems the breaks. If you initiate the violence, you gotta bear the responsibility, whether you be cops or citizen.

And how can anyone hope to honestly prove whether they did or didn't knock first? Woman was home alone, and now she's dead. Lucky break for the stupid cops who got the wrong house, eh wot? No witnesses. Very nice.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=619735

update

cops bought drugs, then got warrent

not sure if seller was granny or other

if other then cops were in the wrong and granny defending herself

if she was dealing - cops were right

ymmv

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=619735

update

cops bought drugs, then got warrent

not sure if seller was granny or other

if other then cops were in the wrong and granny defending herself

if she was dealing - cops were right

ymmv

How is posting a link to a gun thread from another website an 'update'? They're quoting the same article as appears here in the OP.

And a 92 year old woman is supposed to, when armed gunmen kick down her door, immediately pole-vault into the bathtub? After getting her gun of course.

Interesting.



What a lovely attempt at an ad hominem. Try again, suzy. Maybe when you're having a better day.


The same 92 year old woman who had the ability to shoot and hit three police officers ? What she was using her gat to do house cleaning ? she carries it with her when she does the dishes ? So your ASSUMING she was somehow SURPRISED when a bunch of cops burst in while she was watching the soaps and pulled her trusty pistol from her pocket or holster and just blasted three cops .

Um mm OK right.

Your assuming she had a fiberglass tub ...instead of the more common steel or cast iron version .

Your assuming the cops did not KNOCK and announce...


Just make it up as you go along why dont you .


I can find NOTHING on the web to dispute this article.


As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m., a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them, said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.


YET you have nitwits implying the police were shot INVADING THE HOUSE and KNOCKING DOWN DOORS.

ALSO from the same article that NO one has put ANYTHING up to dispute.

The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.

So what was it ?

They were shot on approach or after thery knocked on the door and said they had a warrant ?

THEN GOT SHOT AT ?


Even watching the video with the pissed off niece ...AFTER the three cops got shot they returned fire at " Granny ".


There IS nothing here to suggest the cops did anything wrong EXCEPT let a 92 year old woman shoot them .

NOW ain't that the truth...It seems to always be that way...like the time they fired 190 shots at a guy in a truck in california and not only missed the TRUCK but only managed to hit they guy like four times....from 7 to 15 yards away and If you look at the video maybe closer....the worse thing they ever did was give some of these guys 15 to 18 rounds to waste ..instead of six .
Hey, I remember something like that. In San Diego there was an attempted jewelry store robbery and the cops used the concept of spray and pray, I think there were something like over 800 rounds expended. I really remember it only because I only lived four blocks away.
It seems like the cops teach the concept of point in the general direction and pull the trigger until you are out of ammo, reload, repeat. You would think marksmanship would count for something.

Considering how much time most cops spend on the range, and the amount of time and money involved in being reasonably profficient (as an instructor US, you'll know), it's not surprising at all. Regretable maybe, but not surprising.

Being a good shot requires constant practice. Most officers don't get that for various reasons.

The big question there is who's more responsible for this state of affairs - the citizenry for not being willing to pay for decently proficient police, the pols for squandering money, the PD for mismanagement, or the individual officers themselves for not keeping up with job skills.

maybe the problem is the NRA and the right to bear amrs

I know all abou the right to bear arms. What's this right to bear amrs? What are amrs and where can I get some? ;)

(And that silliness is all that a silly assertion like yours deserves.)

Thank goodness the PATRIOT Act gave law enforcement the same tools to use against terrorists that they already have to fight drug dealers.

Indeed.

And how can anyone hope to honestly prove whether they did or didn't knock first? Woman was home alone, and now she's dead. Lucky break for the stupid cops who got the wrong house, eh wot? No witnesses. Very nice.

At this point, I don't think there's enough info out to determine what happened. If they do manage to show that the man known as Sam was dealing from her house, we'll be in a better position to determine what's what.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=619735

update

cops bought drugs, then got warrent

not sure if seller was granny or other

if other then cops were in the wrong and granny defending herself

if she was dealing - cops were right

ymmv

The article posted there says they bought from a man, and the warrent was a John Doe warrent for a man named Sam, so the seller wasn't Granny. But it's still unclear if they had the right house.

How is posting a link to a gun thread from another website an 'update'? They're quoting the same article as appears here in the OP.

Yes, indeed. He should have posted the correct article, and not the thread. The OP posted this one (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html) and the Glock Talk article quoted that Jwp-serbu was refering to was this one (http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=88020). The latter was filed eight hours after the CNN report, and contains additional info.

Three police officers who killed a 92-year-old woman after she shot and wounded them were serving a warrant at the correct address, Assistant Atlanta Police Chief Alan James Dreher said at a news conference Wednesday.

Chief Dreher said the officers bought illegal drugs earlier in the day from a man at Kathryn Johnston's house on Neal Street in Atlanta. The man who sold the drugs has not yet been identified or arrested.

"As a result of that narcotics purchase, members of the narcotics team obtained a search warrant for that same address. As they were executing the search warrant, they announced themselves before they forced open the door. Once the door was forced, the female inside began shooting at the police officers. The officers returned fire," said Chief Dreher.

CNN has also reported (on air at least, no linkage) that the

And just found this one. Drugs have been found in the house.

The officers had gone to the old woman's house with a search warrant after buying drugs there from a man known only as Sam, police said. Police issued a "John Doe" warrant on Wednesday for the arrest of Sam, believed to be in his early to mid 30s, who allegedly sold the drugs to the undercover agent. Dreher would not say how the dealer knew Johnston.

Investigators also said they found drugs in the home after Johnston was killed. Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman, said the type of drug involved would not be disclosed until it was verified by the crime lab.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4355288.html

Also, more details regarding what the police were doing:
Police Call Shooting 'Tragedy'
Reported By: Jaye Watson
Web Editor: Michael King
Last Modified: 11/22/2006 7:38:25 PM

Atlanta Police officials say their officers were at the correct address when they attempted to serve a search warrant at a northwest Atlanta home on Tuesday night, because it was their second visit to the same house in a matter of hours.

In a noontime press conference, Assistant Police Chief Alan Dreher told reporters an undercover narcotics officer bought drugs from a man inside Kathryn Johnston's house on Tuesday afternoon.

The officers got into a shootout with the 92-year-old Johnston, killing her. Three APD narcotics detectives were wounded in the melee.

Dreher says after the drug buy, police obtained a search warrant and returned to the house to execute it.

Dreher says the police had a "no knock" warrant, meaning just that -- they did not have to knock before entering. But Dreher added his officers did announce themselves before pushing in Johnston's front door.

Police also said on Wednesday that they did not know a 92-year-old woman was inside the house and that it's virtually impossible in search warrant situations to know who will confront officers upon entry.

Dreher says his officers were in raid uniforms, that a marked patrol car was parked out front, and a uniformed police officer was in the front yard when the officers approached the house. He says that when they forced the door open, Johnston open fire hitting all three officers. None received life threatening injuries. The officers returned fire, killing Johnston.

Police say they did find drugs in the house which are being tested at a lab on Wednesday evening. They say they are searching for the man who sold them the drugs. They do not know if he lived with Johnston or was a relative.

Members of the NAACP attended the press conference and said police gave evasive answers to several questions. Dr. R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter, says he's not accusing police of wrongdoing, but he does want to know they did things right.

Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard was at the press conference and said a complete and thorough investigation is underway.

All three officers are on paid administrative leave.
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=88037

Your assuming she had a fiberglass tub ...instead of the more common steel or cast iron version.

Hmmm... I don't know about that... Fiberglass seems to be more common inb my experience.

So what was it ?

They were shot on approach or after thery knocked on the door and said they had a warrant ?

Excellent call! I missed that.

As much as I tend towards believing claims of excesive force, it seems to me the cops were in the right. Even at 92, you aren't neccesarily a helpless victim.

As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m., a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them, said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.


Dreher says his officers were in raid uniforms, that a marked patrol car was parked out front,

Contradiction, anyone?

And what is a raid uniform? One of those black unmarked things?

Dreher says the police had a "no knock" warrant, meaning just that -- they did not have to knock before entering. But Dreher added his officers did announce themselves before pushing in Johnston's front door

So they had a right not to knock, legally, but they claim they did. There are no surviving witnesses, either.

Anybody say fishy?

http://www.jpfo.org/brasco5.jpg

Yay Szanth and Brasco Bear!

Activists: Stop No Knock Warrants


Community activists said 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston was probably scared and thought criminals were breaking into her home Tuesday night when she opened fire on three Atlanta police officers.

Earlier that day, an undercover police bought drugs from a man inside the house.

That night three returned to execute a no knock warrant, which means they don't have to announce themselves before entering the house.

Atlanta police say they did announce themselves when they were opening Johnston's door but say she fired upon them immediately striking all three.

None of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by the officers.

Friday, community activists called on the police chief to halt the use of no knock warrants until the investigation is complete.

Police have said they didn't know a 92-year-old woman was inside the house, which is why activists say it should not have been used.

Chief Pennington has not spoken publicly about the incident yet. He is reportedly out of town for the holiday week.

From here (http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=88091)

Eh.


No-knock warrant again?

How many people have to die before people get it that no-knock warrants are a bad, bad, bad idea?

Actually, the article said that the officers identified themselves before forcing the door open.

It doesn't say, though her niece claims there were never drugs in the house.

Actually, the article says drugs were found, and that they will not be disclosed until the lab results come in on exactly what kind they are.

Sheesh, you'd think people would read the entire article.

Actually, the article said that the officers identified themselves before forcing the door open.

No, it says that the cops said so, while the lawyer for hte family denies this and wants an investigation.

No, it says that the cops said so, while the lawyer for hte family denies this and wants an investigation.

Alright, contrary to popular belief, police officers aren't law-breaking Mavericks who do what they wish. It does happen, but it is hardly the rule. Really, they HAD a warrant, they went by the books. They did exactly what they were told to do, and only had to go on what they were briefed on. They were told they were entering a drughouse, they were shot at, they reacted how any cop would. Really, I wouldn't blame the cops for what happened as much as those whom briefed the cops, and who gave them the information.

Alright, contrary to popular belief, police officers aren't law-breaking Mavericks who do what they wish. It does happen, but it is hardly the rule. Really, they HAD a warrant, they went by the books. They did exactly what they were told to do, and only had to go on what they were briefed on. They were told they were entering a drughouse, they were shot at, they reacted how any cop would. Really, I wouldn't blame the cops for what happened as much as those whom briefed the cops, and who gave them the information.

I'm not blaming the cops.

But one does not need to make the grandma as some 'evil-criminal-who-deserves-to-die'.

It's still legitimate to shoot people who break into your home.

Even if they are cops.

I'm not blaming the cops.

But one does not need to make the grandma as some 'evil-criminal-who-deserves-to-die'.

It's still legitimate to shoot people who break into your home.

Even if they are cops.

I'm not trying to paint the lady that way.

I'm just trying to make sure the cops are not painted as "The evil freedom hating gestapo" that some people like to make them out to be. They were doing their job, they got shot at, and they reacted exactly how they were supposed to. It is unfortunate, but they are "teh evil". They are doing a job most would not do, and when shot at, there is no time to try and think of any alterior explanations, they are forced to shoot back.

I'm not blaming the cops.

But one does not need to make the grandma as some 'evil-criminal-who-deserves-to-die'.

It's still legitimate to shoot people who break into your home.

Even if they are cops.

people have sued because they tripped over power cords while breaking into someones home and won.

what makes it okay to shoot someone that comes into your house? okay, in any other state than texas...

people have sued because they tripped over power cords while breaking into someones home and won.

what makes it okay to shoot someone that comes into your house? okay, in any other state than texas...

Well, you have a right to defend yourself, yes. However, when one claims to be an officer, and claim to have a warrant, one does not have the right to open fire. Of course, this situation is different, of course, and circumstance must be taken into consideration. If someone were to break into my house, they better hope I can't find em. Especially if they are brandishing a weapon, I ain't asking questions, I'm going to shoot. Not all people whom break into houses are just trying to steal stuff, and if they pose a danger to me and my family, I will throw caution to the wind, and forgoe asking questions.

what makes it okay to shoot someone that comes into your house? okay, in any other state than texas...

If a person breaks into your house, and is armed, it's pretty clear to me you have reasonable cause to believe your life is in danger. Shoot 'em.

If a person breaks into your house, and is armed, it's pretty clear to me you have reasonable cause to believe your life is in danger. Shoot 'em.

True enough. And, on the off chance they're police, they have reasonable cause to shoot back. All that happened here, I suppose.

True enough. And, on the off chance they're police, they have reasonable cause to shoot back. All that happened here, I suppose.

Note that there are plenty of cases that people have shot at police and then been ruled not guilty and went on with their lives.

What happened here is tragic, IMHO.

True enough. And, on the off chance they're police, they have reasonable cause to shoot back. All that happened here, I suppose.

Pretty much. It was a horrible mistake, and I'm very sure the officers involved feel horrendous about it. The police were not in the wrong, as many seem to believe(They were going on what they were told), and due to circumstance beyond control, the woman may have believed the officers were not actually officers. It was a horrible mistake, yes, and I'm sure that the force in the area may reconsider how accurate their intelligence gathering is, and how to make it so as to lower the chances of such happening again.

Here's a guess:

Ban no-knock warrants.

Make it illegal to enter without knocking unless either:

a. A life is actively threatened by a delay (say, a criminal has a hostage),

or

b. The arrival of the police has been announced loudly and clearly (through a bullhorn, for instance).

Have all warrant services be accompanied by one or two civilians (like a neighbor) to serve as witnesses, or, failing that, do what Britain is doing and fix video cameras to the officers' hats of helmets. This will also serve to assure that no evidence is planted on the suspect or his belongings.

Oh yeah, maybe some drug dealers will have time to wash the dope down the toilet.

Boo freaking hoo.

Note that there are plenty of cases that people have shot at police and then been ruled not guilty and went on with their lives.

What happened here is tragic, IMHO.

Yep. Circumstances must be considered. However, the cops thought they were enterring a very dangerous situation, were fired upon, and did the only thing they thought right.

Here's a guess:

Ban no-knock warrants.

Make it illegal to enter without knocking unless either:

a. A life is actively threatened by a delay (say, a criminal has a hostage),

or

b. The arrival of the police has been announced loudly and clearly (through a bullhorn, for instance).

Have all warrant services be accompanied by one or two civilians (like a neighbor) to serve as witnesses, or, failing that, do what Britain is doing and fix video cameras to the officers' hats of helmets. This will also serve to assure that no evidence is planted on the suspect or his belongings.

Oh yeah, maybe some drug dealers will have time to wash the dope down the toilet.

Boo freaking hoo.


1. It is unclear as to whether this was a no-knock.
2. The civilian thing is a horrid idea. In some situations it would put them at great risk, and being untrained, they would not know how to act in a situation.
3. Camera helmets are a good idea, methinks. Would clear up a great deal.

. It is unclear as to whether this was a no-knock.

They certainly received a warrant for one. Besides, no-knocks are a general problem, not just in this particular case. Whether or not this particular one is, no-knocks are a problem.

2. The civilian thing is a horrid idea.


It's done IRL in many countries.

Actually, the article said that the officers identified themselves before forcing the door open.

What I am about to say is not directed at Seangoli, rather to anyone under the impression that "officers identified themselves before forcing the door open" means that the officers banged on the door and yelled "this is the police, we have a search warrant"
The usual method is more ""policesearchwarrant" at the same time the door is being hit (the "knock")with a battering ram. Not making a judgement I wasn't there but it does need to be investigated.

What I am about to say is not directed at Seangoli, rather to anyone under the impression that "officers identified themselves before forcing the door open" means that the officers banged on the door and yelled "this is the police, we have a search warrant"

My thinking is she was 92 .... maybe she was hard of hearing.

Does identifying yourself as a police officer count if the person you're identifying yourself to doesn't understand you?

people have sued because they tripped over power cords while breaking into someones home and won.

what makes it okay to shoot someone that comes into your house? okay, in any other state than texas...

Self defense is the basis for shooting someone who comes into your house. It has a very long history in European law, partricularly in English common law (which most US legal codes are based on).

Texas is not the only state with a Justified Homicide statute. In fact, Texas statute currently requires a "duty to retreat"*, while several other states (14-15 as far as I know) have "castle doctrine"** statutes, which give much wider latitude in self defence of the home (no "duty to retreat"). Texas is planning to re-introduce a "castle doctrine" statute in 2007.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-castle_13wes.ART0.North.Edition1.3e193c8.html
http://www.texasinsider.org/scoop/Scoop_JeffWentworth-10-30-06-SupportsCastleDoctrineBill.htm

* "Duty to Retreat" is the legal term for the doctrine requires one to attempt to retyreat or escape before initiating the use of deadly force.
** The "Castle Doctrine" says that you have a legal right to use deadly force to defend your home without requiring you to attempt to escape first.

My thinking is she was 92 .... maybe she was hard of hearing.

Been brought up already, but it's still a good issue.

Does identifying yourself as a police officer count if the person you're identifying yourself to doesn't understand you?

A very good question, and one that also affects foreign language speakers as well as the hearing impaired. Both groups are increasing in the US.

So, as I see it, this boils down to the following:
1) Did the police actually have the correct address? (Mistakes have been made with that.)
2) If they did, did they go to the correct address? (Mistakes have been made with that as well.)
4) Did the police know Mrs. Johnston was the home owner and was home?
5) Was anyone else there at the time of the shooting, who managed to escape?
6) Was Mrs. Johnston hearing impaired?
7) If the police knew she was there, did they know she was hearing impaired?
8) If she was hearing impaired, and they knew, what duty did they have in regards to that?
9) Is the police version of events accurate or a cover up?

We'll just have to wait for the investiogation results... (And even then, I'm sure many people on either side, both here and IRL, have already made up their minds and believe they have predetermined the facts of the case.)

Well apparently the door was secured, so i think she wouldnt have heard the police "announce themselves" and possibly knock, she would have heard them breaking into her house however

It also sounds like the police did more-a-less what they were suppose to... so i cant really hand out blame, not that i dont suspect a police cover-up

So i'll just blame these no-knock warrents and the laws that let police break into peoples houses without warning, not in uniform, in the middle of the night

Self defense is the basis for shooting someone who comes into your house. It has a very long history in European law, partricularly in English common law (which most US legal codes are based on).

Texas is not the only state with a Justified Homicide statute. In fact, Texas statute currently requires a "duty to retreat"*, while several other states (14-15 as far as I know) have "castle doctrine"** statutes, which give much wider latitude in self defence of the home (no "duty to retreat"). Texas is planning to re-introduce a "castle doctrine" statute in 2007.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-castle_13wes.ART0.North.Edition1.3e193c8.html
http://www.texasinsider.org/scoop/Scoop_JeffWentworth-10-30-06-SupportsCastleDoctrineBill.htm

* "Duty to Retreat" is the legal term for the doctrine requires one to attempt to retyreat or escape before initiating the use of deadly force.
** The "Castle Doctrine" says that you have a legal right to use deadly force to defend your home without requiring you to attempt to escape first.

Florida was the first (I think) to pass this. And it also is applied to your car and your person. In simple terms threaten my life anywhere, anytime and I do not have to try to avoid or escape you, and I can use any means I deem fit to protect myself. (gun, knife, baseball bat(or cricket bat), cannon,ect)

Florida was the first (I think) to pass this. And it also is applied to your car and your person. In simple terms threaten my life anywhere, anytime and I do not have to try to avoid or escape you, and I can use any means I deem fit to protect myself. (gun, knife, baseball bat(or cricket bat), cannon,ect)


Not quite. Texas had it as statute until 1974. Note also that English common law recognised the castle Doctrine as far back as 1330, and other European traditions (Athenian law for example) also recognised some form of it.

Castle doctrine means the duty to retreat does not apply to your home.

But hthe Florida law goes further then this.

It eliminates duty to retreat anywhere you have the legal right to be.

Which is win.

Castle doctrine means the duty to retreat does not apply to your home.

But hthe Florida law goes further then this.

It eliminates duty to retreat anywhere you have the legal right to be.

Which is win.

The old woman had every right to defend herself. But the police had every right to defend themselves, as well. Here's the problem. The police either lied about information or depended on an unreliable informant. No matter the source of the tainted information was, they didn't need to be where they were that night.

What's the answer?

Get rid of this puritanical attitude toward drug use. We do not need to punish each and every person that has ever used an illegal drug. We certainly don't need to violate the rights to life and property of those that get in the way. Let's treat drug abuse and quite criminalizing it.

I've been saying wait until we fond out more. And the truth slowly starts to come out...

Atlanta police probe shooting of 88-year-old lady

Associated Press
Tuesday, November 28, 2006

ATLANTA — The police chief has placed all eight members of a narcotics investigation team on leave after a confidential informant said they had asked him to lie during the investigation of the death of an 88-year-old woman, shot and killed by police officers during a drug raid last week.

Chief Richard Pennington said that the FBI would investigate the death of the woman, Kathryn Johnston, who was killed after she fired at three officers who breached the door of her small house, with its green shutters and a wheelchair ramp. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is also examining the case.

The informant's claim fueled more outrage over Johnston's death, which had already prompted Pennington to announce a review of the Atlanta Police Department's policies on the use of no-knock warrants and confidential informants. Since the shooting, civil rights activists and community groups have demanded a federal investigation, saying excessive force was used.

In a news conference Monday, Pennington said that the officers involved and the informant had given contradictory accounts.

"There are many unanswered questions," he said. "But we must all exercise patience as we examine and re-examine every aspect of these tragic events."

The events leading to the death of Johnston, whose photograph in news reports showed her with a cane and a birthday crown, began with a warrant stating that an unnamed informant had bought two bags of crack cocaine from a man at the house, near Vine City. The warrant was known as a no-knock, giving the police the authority to burst through the door without warning in order to prevent the destruction of drugs.

But in an interview broadcast Monday by the local Fox affiliate, the informant, whose identity was concealed, said he had never been to the house in question and had not bought drugs there. Johnston's family has said that she lived alone.

"They were going to pay me just to cover it up," he said in the interview, arranged after he placed a call to one of the station's reporters on Thursday. "They called me immediately after the shooting to ask me, I mean to tell me, `This is what you need to do.' " He added that the officers told him explicitly that he was needed to protect their story.

The reporter, Nicole Allhouse, said in her report that the informant had told her that Johnston's death had prodded him to come forward.

Pennington said it was not clear if the drug dealer, referred to in the warrant only as Sam, existed. He said the officers claimed they had found a small amount of marijuana, but no cocaine, in the house.

In asking a judge for the no-knock warrant before the raid, the narcotics investigator named in the warrant, Jason Smith, said it was needed because a drug dealer inside had several surveillance cameras and monitored them closely.

But Pennington said it was not clear if that was true, either.

He confirmed that the informant's account in the TV interview was the same as what he had told the internal affairs division of the Police Department.

Department procedures call for investigators to observe drug buys conducted by informants, and to watch them enter and exit if a deal takes place indoors. But again, Pennington said it was not clear if that had occurred. He said the informant was considered reliable and had been involved in previous cases.
http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2006/nov/28/atlanta-police-probe-shooting-88-year-old-lady/

The question now is whose CYA story is true?

Note also the clarification of certain details from this story:
The family of Ms. Johnston, whose funeral was held Tuesday in neighboring East Point, Ga., has said she lived alone. But the three officers were executing a search warrant that said an informant had purchased crack from a man at her address. The police had obtained a no-knock warrant, allowing them to enter without first announcing themselves, so as to prevent the disposal of evidence. They cut the burglar bars, forced open the door and then identified themselves as officers.

But Ms. Johnston, 88, was already at the door with a revolver, which neighbors later said she had kept for protection. She shot all three officers before she fell in a hail of gunfire.

On Monday, the informant said in an interview with Fox News that he had never been to the house and had been asked after the shooting to lie about having bought crack there. The police, on the other hand, say they have two bags of crack bought by the informant before the warrant was served, and three bags of marijuana recovered at the house after the shooting. The president of the police union said Tuesday that the informant had lied in the Fox interview to avoid entanglement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/29/us/29atlanta.html?ref=us

Get rid of this puritanical attitude toward drug use. We do not need to punish each and every person that has ever used an illegal drug. We certainly don't need to violate the rights to life and property of those that get in the way. Let's treat drug abuse and quite criminalizing it.

Amen!

I've been saying wait until we fond out more. And the truth slowly starts to come out...


http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2006/nov/28/atlanta-police-probe-shooting-88-year-old-lady/

The question now is whose CYA story is true?

Note also the clarification of certain details from this story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/29/us/29atlanta.html?ref=us



Amen!
And apparently the details turn up to be like many of us thought ...
(Thanks for the info buddy btw)

Why did the cops just run into her house? Why was it a no knock warrant? I mean, the house had a chair ramp for crying out loud! Do you think she was going to jump out a window? Why were the cops in plainclothes? Would it be too much trouble for them to at least show a badge before they break down the door and open fire? And now we learn that someone tried to start a cover-up.

"Looks like a crippled old lady lives here, Sarge."
"Better break down the door and blow her brains out, you can never be too careful with the elderly. She might be in a gang or something."

Doesn't it all just really inspire confidence and trust in police?

And apparently the details turn up to be like many of us thought ...
(Thanks for the info buddy btw)

What it looks like to me is that both the informant and the cops screwed. I suspect what happened is the informant didn't go to the house, but told the cops, and gave them the coke. Then the cops took his story hook line and sinker. It was a terrible, stupid, stupid mistake, but not, as some seem to have suggested, an intentional killing.

Why did the cops just run into her house? Why was it a no knock warrant? I mean, the house had a chair ramp for crying out loud! Do you think she was going to jump out a window? Why were the cops in plainclothes? Would it be too much trouble for them to at least show a badge before they break down the door and open fire? And now we learn that someone tried to start a cover-up.

"Looks like a crippled old lady lives here, Sarge."
"Better break down the door and blow her brains out, you can never be too careful with the elderly. She might be in a gang or something."

Doesn't it all just really inspire confidence and trust in police?

It was a no knock because the cops told the judge it was a dangerous drug house, probably on bad info.

What it looks like to me is that both the informant and the cops screwed. I suspect what happened is the informant didn't go to the house, but told the cops, and gave them the coke. Then the cops took his story hook line and sinker. It was a terrible, stupid, stupid mistake, but not, as some seem to have suggested, an intentional killing.



It was a no knock because the cops told the judge it was a dangerous drug house, probably on bad info.

The scary part, for me anyway, is that this is exactly what would happen if I heard someone breaking down the door to my house. I spend more time at the pistol range than the old woman and I also have a shotgun handy, so maybe the outcome wouldn't have been so favorable for the police department.

No, these mistakes are all part of a larger and more dangerous mistake called "The War on Drugs".

The scary part, for me anyway, is that this is exactly what would happen if I heard someone breaking down the door to my house. I spend more time at the pistol range than the old woman and I also have a shotgun handy, so maybe the outcome wouldn't have been so favorable for the police department.

I'll bet.

No, these mistakes are all part of a larger and more dangerous mistake called "The War on Drugs".

Well, yes, that's the indirect direct cause. No evil "war" on drugs (about as stupid a concept as the war on terrorism), no breaking down the doors of drug houses. We figured out how badly the idea worked once, in 1933....

Would that we could do so again...

(The same goes for the equally idiotic war on firearms, with the exception that that's more clearly treading on on rights...)

I'll bet.



Well, yes, that's the indirect direct cause. No evil "war" on drugs (about as stupid a concept as the war on terrorism), no breaking down the doors of drug houses. We figured out how badly the idea worked once, in 1933....

Would that we could do so again...

(The same goes for the equally idiotic war on firearms, with the exception that that's more clearly treading on on rights...)

No, the abuses that occur as part of the "war" on drugs is the root cause of this shooting. Everyone involved had the right to shoot the other. But the only reason that the police were at that door was because they, for some reason, believed that they were going to arrest someone involved in the drug trade. Look at this (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/)link. I think this makes it a little more clear why I'm not willing to blame the individuals involved on either side. It's the government, dammit, and our stupid obsession with punishing abuse.

So, in being killed, Johnston like, de-aged four years?

No, the abuses that occur as part of the "war" on drugs is the root cause of this shooting. Everyone involved had the right to shoot the other. But the only reason that the police were at that door was because they, for some reason, believed that they were going to arrest someone involved in the drug trade. Look at this (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/)link. I think this makes it a little more clear why I'm not willing to blame the individuals involved on either side. It's the government, dammit, and our stupid obsession with punishing abuse.

Like I said, if there were no war on drugs, the cops wouldn't have been making this raid at all. The war on booze was a stupid idea. The war on drugs is an equally stupid idea. Worse, the war on drugs is rooted in ethnic prejudice, wich is generally a Very Bad Thing.

So, in being killed, Johnston like, de-aged four years?

heh. Just anothe bit of confusion tossed about in this story.

A week later, mourners still seemed in disbelief that the woman — identified as being 88 years old by authorities but as 92 by family and friends — could be shot to death by the officers.
http://www.ajc.com/search/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2006/11/28/1129metjohnston.html