NationStates Jolt Archive

More tragedy in the much-battered little country of Lebanon.

Between the Syrians killing politicians and the Israelis targeting and killing civilians and civilian infrastructure, the good little country of Lebanon faces hardship magnitudes worse than any of its neighbors.

Assuming you mean this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6169606.stm

Lebanese Christian leader killed

Pierre Gemayel, a leading anti-Syrian Lebanese minister and Maronite Christian leader, has been killed in the capital, Beirut.
Mr Gemayel, 34, was shot in his car in a Christian suburb and rushed to hospital, where he died.

I heard about that. Who are the suspected perpetrators? Hezzbollah, or Syria?

Seems like a lot of anti-syrian journalists are getting assassinated.....

The place was getting back to relative normality until the last 2 or so years as well.

Indeed, then the ''Flying Deathsheads" of the IAF and IDF artillery forces did their dandiest to wreck the country again.

The only justice is that the Israelis failed so publicly and humiliatingly at hurting Hezbollah.

At any rate though, all my sympathy goes to the most maligned little country in the middle east, and the one with the best people, Lebanon.

Poor wrecked little Lebanon. Everybody picks on them. Syria kills them, Israel kills them, Hezbollah kills them and gets them killed by Israel.

Very sad.

Indeed, then the ''Flying Deathsheads" of the IAF and IDF artillery forces did their dandiest to wreck the country again.

The only justice is that the Israelis failed so publicly and humiliatingly at hurting Hezbollah.

At any rate though, all my sympathy goes to the most maligned little country in the middle east, and the one with the best people, Lebanon.

While I have sympathy for innocent civilians, I have no sympathy for a government that allows terrorists to roam freely without difficulty and then gets smacked around when that terrorist group goes and does something stupid like crosses sovereign boarders and kidnaps members of another nation's military

The fact is Hezbollah instigated the conflict, and the Lebanese government had done nothing about Hezbollah.

The fact is Hezbollah instigated the conflict, and the Lebanese government had done nothing about Hezbollah.

What could they have done? Their president was just assassinated and Israel, being the "good people" they are, started "tergeting terrorists".

What could they have done? Their president was just assassinated and Israel, being the "good people" they are, started "tergeting terrorists".

there's an expression "you reap what you sew". What they could have done is not allow hezbollah to arm up so much in the first place to the point where they could no longer control them.

Hezbollah grew to the point that Lebanon couldn't control them anymore, this is true, however I would suggest that letting it get to that point in the first place, and allowing terrorists to arm themselves on the border of a sovereign, and far superior militarily, nation that the terrorist group has sworn to destroy is a disaster waiting to happen.

there's an expression "you reap what you sew". What they could have done is not allow hezbollah to arm up so much in the first place to the point where they could no longer control them.

how would they go about doing this I might ask or are you just going to throw criticism at the country?

Oddly enough its Lebanon’s independence day…

there's an expression "you reap what you sew". What they could have done is not allow hezbollah to arm up so much in the first place to the point where they could no longer control them.

Hezbollah grew to the point that Lebanon couldn't control them anymore, this is true, however I would suggest that letting it get to that point in the first place, and allowing terrorists to arm themselves on the border of a sovereign, and far superior militarily, nation that the terrorist group has sworn to destroy is a disaster waiting to happen.

And how were they to stop Hizballah? Rome tried it with the Christians, and look what happened. The U.S.A is trying it with the Taliban Insurgency/Saddam Loyalists, and it's failing.

And how were they to stop Hizballah? Rome tried it with the Christians, and look what happened. The U.S.A is trying it with the Taliban Insurgency/Saddam Loyalists, and it's failing.

I dunno, step one would be not to have let them arm up IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's my point, they sat by and watched a terrorist group arm themselves knowing that this terrorist group was sitting within 10 miles of a nation with a military that could, if it wanted to, kill them all. And did NOTHING.

The government either willfully allowed it to happen, or was simply reckless as to the danger. Then, they allowed for members of this terrorist group to take seats IN THE GOVERNMENT. They weren't sitting there helpless with their hands tied. They let HEZBOLLAH INTO THEIR PARLIAMENT. This is like letting Al Qaeda sit in Congress. There are members of Hezbollah, RIGHT NOW, in the Lebanese government.

They had the Lebanese president get on the air and declare them heroes of the lebanese people. They had a terrorist organization sitting within a hair's width of israel, and they let them into their government, and praised them in the streets.

It's not that they tried and failed, it's not that they couldn't try. It's that they didn't do ANYTHING. They sat, and they watched. They voted them into office, and the government declared them heroes.

I mourn the loss of innocents caught in the crossfire, but I will not shed a tear for the damage done to a nation as a whole when the terrorists that they allowed to arm, invited in their government, and praised in public went to far and attacked a sovereign nation and kidnapped their soldiers.

It is tragic that the people of lebanon had to suffer for the mistakes of its government. But the fact is, Lebanon didn't simply fail to stop Hezbollah, it supported it. Lebanon made a deal with the devil, and such agreements always have a price

[QUOTE=Arthais101;11981820]SNIP/QUOTE]

so what your asking is sending Lebanon’s pitifully weak army to the Israeli border to fight an insurgency

well:

1) Israel won't have it
2) what can the Lebanese military do?
3) Lebanon has to actually hold itself together before it can run around taking out popular groups

so what your asking is sending Lebanon’s pitifully weak army to the Israeli border to fight an insurgency

well:

1) Israel won't have it

On the contrary I believe Israel would be quite happy that Lebanon did something about hezbollah, just as long as the conflict doesn't spill into their own borders

2) what can the Lebanese military do?

A whole lot. They can appeal to the UN for peacekeeping aid. They can ask the international community for support. They can request intelligence information from the US. They could even *gasp* ask Israel for help, as they would be very glad to get Beirut's permission to cross the border and weed out some Hezbollah.

They could have done all of that, they didn't.

3) Lebanon has to actually hold itself together before it can run around taking out popular groups

At this point, perhaps. They could have nipped it in the bud before it grew to such a problem. Failing to do so, and failing to see how just this situation was not only likely, but ultimitly inevitable demonstrates a complete reckless disregard of the Lebanese government for its own people.

The government of Lebanon failed the Lebanese population by allowing Hezbollah to grow into such a problem in the first place. it failed the people doubly so when they HELPED the organization grow in popularity by publically praising them and inviting them to take part in governance.

Hezbollah should have been dealt with at the onsent, not allowed to flurish.

If the American government knew the location of a growing terrorist cell in its borders, allowed it to grow, allowed it to get weapons, allowed them to expand, aided them in their expansion, and then watched as those terrorists blew up a few national monuments our leadership would be dragged out into the street and shot for such an outragious betrayal.

On the contrary I believe Israel would be quite happy that Lebanon did something about hezbollah, just as long as the conflict doesn't spill into their own borders
which it will what with it being on the border plus troops build up on the Israeli border sends a few alarms

They can appeal to the UN for peacekeeping aid.

And so kiss economic investment goodbye and also creating a conflict in Lebanon possibly a civil war (same for all cases really)

They could even *gasp* ask Israel for help, as they would be very glad to get Beirut's permission to cross the border and weed out some Hezbollah.

Along with creating a war zone on Lebanon’s border that will, looking at Israeli strategy involve blowing the shit out of everything (also destroying support for the government from the public)

Hezbollah should have been dealt with at the onsent, not allowed to flurish.

A struggling government vs. a strong militia (with the peoples support) do you really think that the Lebanese government could take them on at pretty much any date in Hezbollah’s history?

If the American government knew the location of a growing terrorist cell in its borders, allowed it to grow, allowed it to get weapons, allowed them to expand, aided them in their expansion, and then watched as those terrorists blew up a few national monuments our leadership would be dragged out into the street and shot for such an outragious betrayal.

Look at it this way a foreign power marched into your country and shot the shit out of everything what would you do?

And how were they to stop Hizballah? Rome tried it with the Christians, and look what happened. The U.S.A is trying it with the Taliban Insurgency/Saddam Loyalists, and it's failing.

Same way the turks stopped the armenians?

And rome was pretty sucessful at stopping the christians until that idiot constantine came along.

I dunno, step one would be not to have let them arm up IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's my point, they sat by and watched a terrorist group arm themselves knowing that this terrorist group was sitting within 10 miles of a nation with a military that could, if it wanted to, kill them all. And did NOTHING.

How do you watch a terrorist group arm itself? Do you see it go to a shop and buy a gun? If you do, do you walk up to said terrorist and say put down your weapon? Intriguing policy on stopping terror...

The government either willfully allowed it to happen, or was simply reckless as to the danger. Then, they allowed for members of this terrorist group to take seats IN THE GOVERNMENT. They weren't sitting there helpless with their hands tied. They let HEZBOLLAH INTO THEIR PARLIAMENT. This is like letting Al Qaeda sit in Congress. There are members of Hezbollah, RIGHT NOW, in the Lebanese government.

Of course there are. It's called democracy. The political wing of Hezbollah is akin to Sinn Fein's relationship with the IRA. They are not the terrorists rather they are the voices of the terrorists (dody distinction but I know what I meant). Regardless, if they were to ban Hezbollah they'd get accused of being undemocratic and people would talk about a lack of freedoms and rights...

They had the Lebanese president get on the air and declare them heroes of the lebanese people. They had a terrorist organization sitting within a hair's width of israel, and they let them into their government, and praised them in the streets.

The government - to my knowledge - did not praise Hezbollah on the streets...some of the people of Lebanon did though, are you angry with them? They were getting their houses blown to shit and they sided with Hezbollah, I think I would in that situation too.

I mourn the loss of innocents caught in the crossfire, but I will not shed a tear for the damage done to a nation as a whole when the terrorists that they allowed to arm, invited in their government, and praised in public went to far and attacked a sovereign nation and kidnapped their soldiers.

If you truly believe that was the sole motivation for the conflict then there is little to no point in having this discussion - needless to say Hezbollah and Hamas have kidnapped Israeli soldiers before and that was not the reaction...

It is tragic that the people of lebanon had to suffer for the mistakes of its government. But the fact is, Lebanon didn't simply fail to stop Hezbollah, it supported it. Lebanon made a deal with the devil, and such agreements always have a price

By your logic the people of Haifa also did a deal with the devil when they voted for Olmert and so should live with the consequences...

A lot of people overlook the fact that Hezbollah does not target israeli civilians, and condemned the attack on the WTC as well as other sunni islamic attacks against civilians.

Shia islam does not support the killing of civilians, only military targets.

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization in any reasonable sense, it's attacks are confined to the israeli military.

The collective punishment of the lebanese civilian population by the despicable israeli government and military - an act of dishonorable cowardice - is not mitigated by anything.

A lot of people overlook the fact that Hezbollah does not target israeli civilians, and condemned the attack on the WTC as well as other sunni islamic attacks against civilians. What? So sending rockets randomly into Israeli towns isn't targeting civilians? Hezbollah not only targets Israeli civilians but also Jewish civilians in other countries. Remember the Buenos Aires Jewish community center bombing?


Shia islam does not support the killing of civilians, only military targets. One can make that argument about any religion in general, but not about every religious group. Christian Identity terrorists attack blacks, Jews, and the Oklahoma City federal building. Al Quaeda attacks civilians in Europe and the USA. Hezbollah attacks civilian Jews in Israel and South America.

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization in any reasonable sense, it's attacks are confined to the israeli military. See my response to your first statement. You're wrong.

The collective punishment of the lebanese civilian population by the despicable israeli government and military - an act of dishonorable cowardice - is not mitigated by anything.

When the Hezbollah terrorists raining rockets on Israeli towns hide their men and missiles among the civilian population of Southern Lebanon what should the Israelis do? Should they sit back and take it? They have to fight back or be destroyed.

Fight back does not mean you need to bomb the entire of South Beirut.

While I have sympathy for innocent civilians, I have no sympathy for a government that allows terrorists to roam freely without difficulty and then gets smacked around when that terrorist group goes and does something stupid like crosses sovereign boarders and kidnaps members of another nation's military


O NOEESSSS!!!!!1111!!111 TEH BLOOD-LUST........


They could even *gasp* ask Israel for help, as they would be very glad to get Beirut's permission to cross the border and weed out some Hezbollah.

They could have done all of that, they didn't.

That wouldnt be the same Israel that sponsored the christian militias, sneaked across soverign boarders to assasinate and kidnap another nations civillians, invaded in the 1980s leaving thousands dead, ran a torture camp, killed UN members either directly or throught its surrogate the SLA and generally 'wasn't nice' would it?

The same Israel that hosts a maronite christian station that broadcasts to Lebanon claiming to be a goverment in exile?

I wonder why they didn't go to them. Must be that blood lust again....

Why the fuck can't people just leave Lebanon alone?:(

Why the fuck can't people just leave Lebanon alone?:(
They can't 'cause people are mean smelly poopie heads.

They can't 'cause people are mean smelly poopie heads.

Then why not fling poo instead of bombs?

Fight back does not mean you need to bomb the entire of South Beirut.
It doesn't? You mean we can't make Beirut into a smouldering crater?? :eek:

It doesn't? You mean we can't make Beirut into a smouldering crater?? :eek:

Obviously in order to secure a safe Israel, all of Lebanon needs to be obliterated. The Lebanonese do not deserve the same respect and safety that other nations have.

Obviously in order to secure a safe Israel, all of Lebanon needs to be obliterated. The Lebanonese do not deserve the same respect and safety that other nations have.
Of course not. They are obvious hording oil and hiding WMDs. They are next door to Iran, so they must be 'liberated'. ;)

It doesn't? You mean we can't make Beirut into a smouldering crater?? :eek:

Well, that would depend on which "we" you are. If you are any of the Syrian, Hezbollah, Iranian, pissed off Lebanese, christians, Druze wes, no you can't. Its wrong and they've suffered enough.

If you're the Israeli we's, theres a special on 2000 lbers this week......You have to fight back, etc and so on.

Well, that would depend on which "we" you are. If you are any of the Syrian, Hezbollah, Iranian, pissed off Lebanese, christians, Druze wes, no you can't. Its wrong and they've suffered enough.

If you're the Israeli we's, theres a special on 2000 lbers this week......You have to fight back, etc and so on.
Only 2000 lbs??

Fight back does not mean you need to bomb the entire of South Beirut.

Israel did no such thing. If you actually look at the satellite images of the Beirut bombings a tiny proportion of the city was destroyed, literally only a couple of blocks out of one of the biggest cities in the Middle East, and these couple of blocks are not even next to each other, they are dotted about the city. All impartial evidence pointed to the fact that the IDF were telling the truth when they said they were specifically targetting Hizbollah targets.

At the risk of sounding paranoid, a lot of the Western media portrayed that one city block (notice if you will, that nearly all news broadcasts were made from a single crossroads in Beirut) as equating to all of Southern Beirut. Maybe it was lazy reporting, maybe they didn't bother looking at the rest of the city, or maybe the media deliberately spun this story onto the anti-Israel edge for reasons of sensationalism.

Israel did no such thing. If you actually look at the satellite images of the Beirut bombings a tiny proportion of the city was destroyed, literally only a couple of blocks out of one of the biggest cities in the Middle East, and these couple of blocks are not even next to each other, they are dotted about the city. All impartial evidence pointed to the fact that the IDF were telling the truth when they said they were specifically targetting Hizbollah targets.


Bullshit. Israel was specifically targeting Lebanese infrastructure, 350 schools, 2 hospitals, 73 bridges, 15,000 homes, 25 fuel stations, electrical facilities, 900 commercial structures, and the Beirut international Airport; all destroyed.


1,500 civilians dead and over 135,000 displaced.

Bullshit. Israel was specifically targeting Lebanese infrastructure, 350 schools, 2 hospitals, 73 bridges, 15,000 homes, 25 fuel stations, electrical facilities, 900 commercial structures, and the Beirut international Airport; all destroyed.


1,500 civilians dead and over 135,000 displaced.


Why is your anger not directed at Syria ?

What? So sending rockets randomly into Israeli towns isn't targeting civilians? Hezbollah not only targets Israeli civilians but also Jewish civilians in other countries. Remember the Buenos Aires Jewish community center bombing?
One can make that argument about any religion in general, but not about every religious group. Christian Identity terrorists attack blacks, Jews, and the Oklahoma City federal building. Al Quaeda attacks civilians in Europe and the USA. Hezbollah attacks civilian Jews in Israel and South America. See my response to your first statement. You're wrong.

When the Hezbollah terrorists raining rockets on Israeli towns hide their men and missiles among the civilian population of Southern Lebanon what should the Israelis do? Should they sit back and take it? They have to fight back or be destroyed.


Hezbollah never claimed responsiblity for the bombing in South America, and it is not clear that they were responsible as an institution. After expelling the israeli occupation of lebanon hezbollah did not proceed with any campaign of terrorism or suicide bombing against israeli civilians.

Hezbollah launched rockets near shlomi and into the golan heights as a diversionary tactic for their offensive against the israeli military, where they captured prisoners with the intention of compelling a prisoner-transfer.

When the IDF started attacking lebanon, hezbollah began firing rockets at israeli cities to force the populace into hiding and make the israelis feel the toll for what they were doing.

The fact remains that hezbollah does not mount the same kind of terrorist bombing that hamas and islamic jihad are so well known for. They use their rocket artillery for what the military calls 'strategic bombardment' during war-time.

Hamas , IJ and iraqi insurgency style terrorism - as well as the al qaeda - is a sunni islamic phenomena, not a shiite one. This fact makes it even less likely that hezbollah sanctioned the attack on buenos aires.

Bullshit. Israel was specifically targeting Lebanese infrastructure, 350 schools, 2 hospitals, 73 bridges, 15,000 homes, 25 fuel stations, electrical facilities, 900 commercial structures, and the Beirut international Airport; all destroyed.


1,500 civilians dead and over 135,000 displaced.

Haret Hreik, before and after the conflict. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Haret_Hreik_Before_After_22_July_2006.png) Bear in mind that Haret Hreik is one neighbourhood amongst dozens. Also bear in mind that Haret Hreik had a huge concentration of Hizbollah militants and supporters, to the point where I would not say there was anyone 'innocent' living there. Furthermore, note the precision of the attacks, the surrounding blocks are unscathed, indeed, some buildings within the neighbourhood itself are still standing, further implying that Israel is aiming its attacks strategically and carefully, and not just levelling the Lebanese city.

Haret Hreik was the worst affected place in the entire of Lebanon, and yet it is clearly not excessively affected at all. Conclusion, Israel's actions in the 2006 conflict were proportionate and reasoned.

Hezbollah never claimed responsiblity for the bombing in South America, and it is not clear that they were responsible as an institution. After expelling the israeli occupation of lebanon hezbollah did not proceed with any campaign of terrorism or suicide bombing against israeli civilians.

Hezbollah launched rockets near shlomi and into the golan heights as a diversionary tactic for their offensive against the israeli military, where they captured prisoners with the intention of compelling a prisoner-transfer.

When the IDF started attacking lebanon, hezbollah began firing rockets at israeli cities to force the populace into hiding and make the israelis feel the toll for what they were doing.

The fact remains that hezbollah does not mount the same kind of terrorist bombing that hamas and islamic jihad are so well known for. They use their rocket artillery for what the military calls 'strategic bombardment' during war-time.

Hamas , IJ and iraqi insurgency style terrorism - as well as the al qaeda - is a sunni islamic phenomena, not a shiite one. This fact makes it even less likely that hezbollah sanctioned the attack on buenos aires.

doublethink duckspeak plusgood.

Haret Hreik, before and after the conflict. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Haret_Hreik_Before_After_22_July_2006.png) Bear in mind that Haret Hreik is one neighbourhood amongst dozens. Also bear in mind that Haret Hreik had a huge concentration of Hizbollah militants and supporters, to the point where I would not say there was anyone 'innocent' living there. Furthermore, note the precision of the attacks, the surrounding blocks are unscathed, indeed, some buildings within the neighbourhood itself are still standing, further implying that Israel is aiming its attacks strategically and carefully, and not just levelling the Lebanese city.


The attacks were throughout the country. Why, for instance, was Beiriut airport bombed, and the various roads closed?

Why is your anger not directed at Syria ?

Bashar al assad should be reduced via explosives into a fine red mist, but he didnt invade and batter lebanon this summer, the despicable israeli military did.

Both of lebanon's antagonists deserve severe punishment. It probably won't happen, but that doesnt change the moral facts of the situation.