NationStates Jolt Archive

"More than a third of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are built on privately owned Palestinian land, an Israeli campaign group has reported.
Peace Now says nearly 40% of the land the settlements sit on is, according to official data, "effectively stolen" from Palestinian landowners.

This, the group says, is a violation of Israel's own laws. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6168752.stm

Any excuses? I know the usual apologists run like fuckery away from things like this, but I could do with a laugh.

Meh, isn't murdering people against Israel's own laws?

Meh, isn't murdering people against Israel's own laws?

As is bombing on the sabbath.

Methinks the Palestinians ought to take a page from the page of the native protectors at Caledonia (Ontario) and just occupy the lands in a non-violent fashion, so that any move on the part of the Israelis makes the Israelis look like asshats, effectively making everyone's life in that area equally miserable.

Sheesh, and here I thought you'd be discussing aboriginal issues relating to stolen land.


Edit: and Kryozerkia beats me to it! Except non-violent occupation in this case will likely get your ass blown off...not so in Caledonia (hopefully).

Do we really need ANOTHER Israel is Evil thread?

"More than a third of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are built on privately owned Palestinian land, an Israeli campaign group has reported.
Peace Now says nearly 40% of the land the settlements sit on is, according to official data, "effectively stolen" from Palestinian landowners.

This, the group says, is a violation of Israel's own laws. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6168752.stm

Any excuses? I know the usual apologists run like fuckery away from things like this, but I could do with a laugh.

Kind of like how America is built on land and resources stolen from Indian communities?

Do we really need ANOTHER Israel is Evil thread?

Depends how long till they get the message.

Methinks the Palestinians ought to take a page from the page of the native protectors at Caledonia (Ontario) and just occupy the lands in a non-violent fashion, so that any move on the part of the Israelis makes the Israelis look like asshats, effectively making everyone's life in that area equally miserable.

Doing that near a settlement would be even more suicidal than people prepared to make suicide attacks are prepared to get.


Depends how long till they get the message..

..back of the net.....

honestly, this would be the perfect place for nonviolent resistance.
now we just need an islamic version of Ghandi.

Kind of like how America is built on land and resources stolen from Indian communities?

Kind of, except they didn't actually own the land.

In fact, they didn't know you COULD own land. When europeans 'bought' land from them for trinkets and baubles, the natives thought they were stupid. :p

This is what happens when you try that protest stuff over there. And I hesitate to guess what would happen if they tried to get near a settlement.

"Israeli troops have opened fire during a protest by Palestinian demonstrators in the town of Rafah in southern Gaza.
At least 10 people were killed and 60 injured, though some reports put the number of casualties higher.
The army expressed deep sorrow for the loss of innocent life, but said tanks and a helicopter had fired warning shots to stop crowds entering the area. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3728681.stm

honestly, this would be the perfect place for nonviolent resistance.
now we just need an islamic version of Ghandi.

I heard an interview with an American Jew who went for a while to Israel and joined the IDF. He was assigned to be a prison guard at a prison for Palestinian militants. He tried to talk to a few of them about nonviolent Resistance, but they told him no Arab man would ever sit still when a Jew struck or spit on him.

It's an honor culture. An Arab Muslim can't let a Jew, someone who's supposed to be and historically has been subservient and meek, strike him and not fight back. That's why this won't ever end. Neither side is willing to let any offense go unpunished. This war will go on forever or until one side decides to commit genocide.

Kind of, except they didn't actually own the land.

In fact, they didn't know you COULD own land. When europeans 'bought' land from them for trinkets and baubles, the natives thought they were stupid. :p

Totally inaccurate.

We did not divide up land into little parcels but that in no way means we had no concept of ownership. Our ownership is not based on saying, 'I own this soil, these trees, and the animals residing therin' but rather on 'we have the right of exclusivity to this territory'. English common law in both the US and Canada recognise aboriginal title, recognise it as ownership sui generis and have worked from that premise since the beginning. Our land was not 'bought' with baubles and trinkets. We are not infants.

I heard an interview with an American Jew who went for a while to Israel and joined the IDF. He was assigned to be a prison guard at a prison for Palestinian militants. He tried to talk to a few of them about nonviolent Resistance, but they told him no Arab man would ever sit still when a Jew struck or spit on him.

It's an honor culture. An Arab Muslim can't let a Jew, someone who's supposed to be and historically has been subservient and meek, strike him and not fight back. That's why this won't ever end. Neither side is willing to let any offense go unpunished. This war will go on forever or until one side decides to commit genocide.

Hmmmmm. None of which addresses why theres Israeli settlements outside Israels borders. Because as a non-muslim, I can safely say that I wouldnt take that lying down myself, regardless of the race or creed of the people waving the gun in my face.

Depends how long till they get the message.

The United States will close it's ears and eyes to how evil and "technology failurable (?)" Israel is until we either:

A) Get a new president who actually pays attention to Sudan and Israel's mass genocides

B) We get a Muslim to work in the President's Cabinet.

B is 100% impossible unless somebody converts while being a member of the cabinet. A seems 99.9% impossible, as the only President who did this, Bill Clinton, was whined about because he recieved "you-know-what" (even though he completely revived the United States from a previous Bush-failure (but who's going to help us in 2008?)).

Hmmmmm. None of which addresses why theres Israeli settlements outside Israels borders. Because as a non-muslim, I can safely say that I wouldnt take that lying down myself, regardless of the race or creed of the people waving the gun in my face.
Agreed.

I don't think the Palestinians need to use non-violence or be discredited in their struggle for sovereignty. To say so is totally unrealistic. Nor do I believe that violence damns both sides to equal culpability.

Agreed.

I don't think the Palestinians need to use non-violence or be discredited in their struggle for sovereignty. To say so is totally unrealistic. Nor do I believe that violence damns both sides to equal culpability.

Well said.

Totally inaccurate.

We did not divide up land into little parcels but that in no way means we had no concept of ownership. Our ownership is not based on saying, 'I own this soil, these trees, and the animals residing therin' but rather on 'we have the right of exclusivity to this territory'. English common law in both the US and Canada recognise aboriginal title, recognise it as ownership sui generis and have worked from that premise since the beginning. Our land was not 'bought' with baubles and trinkets. We are not infants.

...Um....

*drops a canister of crazy purple knockout gas and bolts*

Hmmmmm. None of which addresses why theres Israeli settlements outside Israels borders. Because as a non-muslim, I can safely say that I wouldnt take that lying down myself, regardless of the race or creed of the people waving the gun in my face.

Cheap land why else? You could own a house relatively chapely in the West Bank instead of paying through the nose to live in an apartment in Tel Aviv. Not that hard a choice. And the settlements built there in the late '70's were done by Palestinians workers if that isn't some horrid irony for you.

...Um....

*drops a canister of crazy purple knockout gas and bolts*

Hahahahaa....

This has been another "NOW YOU KNOW" moment brought by the proud Cree woman formerly known as Sinuhue.

Israel is perfectly right in occupying the territory it currently is; in fact, I wouldn't fault it if it decided to militarily occupy all of Gaza, the West Bank,, etc., and sent the Palestinians on their merry way to Jordan or Egypt. However, Israel is showing admirable restrain in dealing with the terrorist menace. Unfortunately, there are numerous brutal terrorists who operate out of the West Bank, and employ such cowardly and monstrous tactics as lobbing unguided missiles at civilian areas with the express purpose of massacring as many innocents as possible. Israel is powerless to defend itself against these attacks unless it secures the launching sites and imprisons those responsible. If the Palestinians want Israel out of their "country," the solution is simple: disband all terrorist groups and acknowledge Israel. They have no done so because they wish the destruction of the Israeli state.

If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace; if the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel.

by the proud Cree woman formerly known as Sinuhue.

wow, after the way you left, I'm surprised you came back, heh.

Israel needs to face international sanctions until it returns to its legal borders. Israel's lebensraum policy is the same shit we saw seventy years ago and is no less wrong now than it was then.

Israel is perfectly right in occupying the territory it currently is; in fact, I wouldn't fault it if it decided to militarily occupy all of Gaza, the West Bank,, etc., and sent the Palestinians on their merry way to Jordan or Egypt. However, Israel is showing admirable restrain in dealing with the terrorist menace. Unfortunately, there are numerous brutal terrorists who operate out of the West Bank, and employ such cowardly and monstrous tactics as lobbing unguided missiles at civilian areas with the express purpose of massacring as many innocents as possible. Israel is powerless to defend itself against these attacks unless it secures the launching sites and imprisons those responsible. If the Palestinians want Israel out of their "country," the solution is simple: disband all terrorist groups and acknowledge Israel. They have no done so because they wish the destruction of the Israeli state.

If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace; if the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel.

Well, he's set it up. Who's going to fall for it.....?

If the Palestinians want Israel out of their "country," the solution is simple: disband all terrorist groups and acknowledge Israel. They have no done so because they wish the destruction of the Israeli state.

If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace; if the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel.


I can feel the bile rising in my throat as I say these words but...I agree with him.

Israel is perfectly right in occupying the territory it currently is; in fact, I wouldn't fault it if it decided to militarily occupy all of Gaza, the West Bank,, etc., and sent the Palestinians on their merry way to Jordan or Egypt. However, Israel is showing admirable restrain in dealing with the terrorist menace. Unfortunately, there are numerous brutal terrorists who operate out of the West Bank, and employ such cowardly and monstrous tactics as lobbing unguided missiles at civilian areas with the express purpose of massacring as many innocents as possible. Israel is powerless to defend itself against these attacks unless it secures the launching sites and imprisons those responsible. If the Palestinians want Israel out of their "country," the solution is simple: disband all terrorist groups and acknowledge Israel. They have no done so because they wish the destruction of the Israeli state.

If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace; if the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel.

You know that one of the main reasons the Palestinians launched their attacks to begin with is because Israel (illegally) began building settlements in the West Bank. Israel was stealing their land and figured that they would just suck it up and deal with it. Israel was wrong. Then they use oppressive means to keep the Palestinains they herded into camps in line. They expected a different reaction? What they need to do is leave their illegal settlements in the West Bank and then things would be much calmer for Israel.

wow, after the way you left, I'm surprised you came back, heh.
I tried to break my habit, I burned bridges...and it didn't work :(

Hahahahaa....

This has been another "NOW YOU KNOW" moment brought by the proud Cree woman formerly known as Sinuhue.

So, you're at U of A now?

You know that one of the main reasons the Palestinians launched their attacks to begin with is because Israel (illegally) began building settlements in the West Bank. They were stealing their land and figured that they would just suck it up and deal with it. Israel was wrong. What they need to do is leave their illegal settlements in the West Bank and then things would be much calmer for Israel.

As much as I wish this were true, I simply just don't believe it. Every time the hand of peace has been extended it's been slapped away, every time a ceasefire was brokered, it was broken.

I don't believe the line of "if you go away they'll leave you alone" I just don't. I don't think anything can be done to stop the attacks on Israel. I think that this is simply a justification, a smokescreen, a "look at us we've been wronged and we're upset" excuse to cover up the fact that at the end of the day, they simply just like killing jews.

And nothing Israel does, no matter how nice they are, no matter how much they give in, is going to change the fact that they just like killing jews.

So if they want peace, they're going to have to stop first.

I can feel the bile rising in my throat as I say these words but...I agree with him.

Hmmm, Colonisation causes terrorism which STRANGELY E-FUCKING NUFF is used to justify more colonisation. "They can't be trusted"...."not able to govern themselves", "not civilised"......And yes, its all part of the same package. Its been trotted out by every prick holding land by force of arms against a majority population in the last 200 years. And yes, its bollocks.

You ever notice how being killed and failing a lot doesnt seem to dissuade them?

So, you're at U of A now?

No me preguntes cosas tan personales aqui, si quieres saber, mandame un mensaje por favor.

You know that one of the main reasons the Palestinians launched their attacks to begin with is because Israel (illegally) began building settlements in the West Bank.

That is indeed their pretext, but it is not the real reason. It's like a kid saying that he is lacking his homework because his "dog ate it." Well, you just bought that excuse hook, line, and sinker. Ever since the emergence of the proud Israeli state amid the wreck that is the Middle East, the Arabs have done their best to destroy Israel. They just hate Israel, regardless of what it does. If the Palestinians want their land back, they must first behave like human beings and not crazed, rabid animals (although that comparison is somewhat unfair to the animals).

I can feel the bile rising in my throat as I say these words but...I agree with him.

Um why? Not necessarily to do with this, even looking at the broader picture- armed resistance has a higher sucess rate aganist a (correctly or not) perceived occupier, than purely non-violent resistance.

Every one uses India as a prime example, but it's a lot easier to use non-violence when the occupiers only number in the thousand when the occupied number in the hundreds of millions.

Totally inaccurate.

We did not divide up land into little parcels but that in no way means we had no concept of ownership. Our ownership is not based on saying, 'I own this soil, these trees, and the animals residing therin' but rather on 'we have the right of exclusivity to this territory'. English common law in both the US and Canada recognise aboriginal title, recognise it as ownership sui generis and have worked from that premise since the beginning. Our land was not 'bought' with baubles and trinkets. We are not infants.

The concept of owning land is irrelevant. Certain Native American tribes had allied themselves with America's enemies in the French-Indian War, Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. If Americans can evict their European enemies from their homes without all the whining, then why not the allies of their enemies. Also, some tribes that Americans came in contact with, like the Lakota, actually came into another tribe's territory and drove them out, before they were driven out by the Americans. It goes back to the arguement of "Can you really steal from a thief?"

As much as I wish this were true, I simply just don't believe it. Every time the hand of peace has been extended it's been slapped away, every time a ceasefire was brokered, it was broken..

...by Israel as often as not, but you seem to be an apologist for the colonial enterprise I doubt that bothers yoy a whit. It was Israel who ditched the last effort in 2003 too.


I don't believe the line of "if you go away they'll leave you alone" I just don't. I don't think anything can be done to stop the attacks on Israel. I think that this is simply a justification, a smokescreen, a "look at us we've been wronged and we're upset" excuse to cover up the fact that at the end of the day, they simply just like killing jews.

Yes, its ridiculous to suggest that Jews lust for the blood of blonde children to make some form of cake, but do not for a second doubt that Palestinians hunger for the taste of Hebrew flesh - raw or cooked.

Hmmm, Colonisation causes terrorism which STRANGELY E-FUCKING NUFF is used to justify more colonisation. "They can't be trusted"...."not able to govern themselves", "not civilised"......And yes, its all part of the same package. Its been trotted out by every prick holding land by force of arms against a majority population in the last 200 years. And yes, its bollocks.

You ever notice how being killed and failing a lot doesnt seem to dissuade them?

As I said, I just don't believe it. I don't believe the cause is the settlements. I don't believe the cause is Shabba farms, I don't believe the cause is the little children caught in crossfire.

I belive the cause is, that at the end of the day, The palestinians of Hamas and the Lebanese militants of Hezbollah just like killing jews.

And it doesn't matter what Israel does, it doesn't matter what steps they take, they'll just continue to like killing jews.

And until they put down down their weapons and say "enough" they will continue to like killing jews.

And as long as they like killing jews Israel will keep killing them.

Want the settlements to go away? Want a nation of palestine? want Israel to leave you alone?

Stop freaking killing jews.

As much as I wish this were true, I simply just don't believe it. Every time the hand of peace has been extended it's been slapped away, every time a ceasefire was brokered, it was broken.

I don't believe the line of "if you go away they'll leave you alone" I just don't. I don't think anything can be done to stop the attacks on Israel. I think that this is simply a justification, a smokescreen, a "look at us we've been wronged and we're upset" excuse to cover up the fact that at the end of the day, they simply just like killing jews.

And nothing Israel does, no matter how nice they are, no matter how much they give in, is going to change the fact that they just like killing jews.

So if they want peace, they're going to have to stop first.

This is all after the fact. What is going on now is a bloodlust for Israeli blood. I am not excusing what has happened in recent years but the entire reason the violence began is because Israel violated international law and built illegal settlements on Palestinaian land. In the 1970's Israelis and Palestinians largely lived in peace, no real difficulties. There were open borders between the West Bank and Israel, no military checkpoints like there are today. Then that stupid "Greater Israel" took hold and settlements were built in the West Bank (headed by Ariel Sharon). Israel needs to take a hard look at its own actions as the cause of their difficulties. As I said, it doesn't excuse the violence of today, in this way both sides are at fault but it is obvious who started the problem.

That is indeed their pretext, but it is not the real reason. It's like a kid saying that he is lacking his homework because his "dog ate it." Well, you just bought that excuse hook, line, and sinker. Ever since the emergence of the proud Israeli state amid the wreck that is the Middle East, the Arabs have done their best to destroy Israel. They just hate Israel, regardless of what it does. If the Palestinians want their land back, they must first behave like human beings and not crazed, rabid animals (although that comparison is somewhat unfair to the animals).

Same as above. And you don't have to act in any certain way to have the land stolen from you returned. There is no "earning" the right to have back what was yours to begin with. And at every turn when Israel could have calmed things down by using restraint, they send in the military, Palestinians die, and the situation escalates. How are the Palestinians the only party that needs to step up? Unless Israel stops its disgusting imperialist actions and its war crimes against the Palestinians people, there won't be peace. Both sides have to decide that there needs to be a change.

Yes, its ridiculous to suggest that Jews lust for the blood of blonde children to make some form of cake, but do not for a second doubt that Palestinians hunger for the taste of Hebrew flesh - raw or cooked.

The blood libel has no historic evidence.

How many quotes do you want me to pull of Hamas leadership saying "we will destroy Israel?"

It's one thing to believe something without factual proof, quite enough to belief something about someone when they admit it to be true.

All palestinians? No, but the ones in power do, and the ones in power have whipped up the frenzy against Israel since before their was an Israel. They rule with fear, they point out a country say "this is your enemy, THEY are the fault of everything in your life, THEY keep you down, THEY make you miserable" and the people, whose lives aren't that great to begin with, believe it. And when Israel responds, the leadership shrills from the top of their voice "LOOK, LOOK, WE TOLD YOU THEY WANTED US DEAD!" self perpetuating their holding to power by violence, ignoring that te acts are in reprisal for their initial violence.

The leadership of Palestine, the leadership of Hezbollah will continue to goad their people into violence against israel because that is how they retain their power, by stirring their people against the enemy, provoking them, then condemning them when they respond to the provocation.

The leadership of these groups depend on their people's hatred of Israel. It's how they hold on to their power base.

I don't understand how thatWant the settlements to go away?

is a reason for this.


Stop freaking killing jews.

The settlements have nothing to do with preventing Israeli deaths or even security. It's a pretty blatant land grab - no better than the Soviet 'buffer zone' of Eastern Europe post-1945.

Both reprehensible.

I don't understand how that

is a reason for this.



The settlements have nothing to do with preventing Israeli deaths or even security. It's a pretty blatant land grab - no better than the Soviet 'buffer zone' of Eastern Europe post-1945.

Both reprehensible.

Let me clarify one thing. I'm not in favor of the settlements. I am however not nearly as blind as some to suggest that if the settlements went away Hamas and other groups would say "well, that was nice, we can be in peace now" put down their arms and go away.

This is bloodlust, simple bloodlust, no capitulation will change that.

As I said(......)jews.


Yep. Jews own everything, run the world, corrupt western society, conspired with "the blacks" to create Elvis and grab white women - total crap.

Palesitinians - born wanting to kill Jews, live wanting to kill jews, will only die while trying to kill Jews "just because"- utterly believable.

Fuck evidence to the contrary, similar patterns in other conflicts and any idea that there is some equivalence between peoples in similar situations because those A-rabs just want to kill Jews. Its genetic, you know....The "Hebrew homicide" gene. Soon to be proven by science.

Yep. Jews own everything, run the world, corrupt western society, conspired with "the blacks" to create Elvis and grab white women - total crap.

Palesitinians - born wanting to kill Jews, live wanting to kill jews, will only die while trying to kill Jews "just because"- utterly believable.

Fuck evidence to the contrary, similar patterns in other conflicts and any idea that there is some equivalence between peoples in similar situations because those A-rabs just want to kill Jews. Its genetic, you know....The "Hebrew homicide" gene. Soon to be proven by science.


Of course not, it's absolutly cultural. They are raised in a culture that tells them, every day, that Israel, and the jews are their enemy. They are raised in a culture where the people in power have gotten into power, and hold on to their power, by preaching hate. They are raised in a culture dominated by leaders who manipulate their hate to secure their continued power

Is it genetic? of course not. Is it even really their fault? No, not really. It is the fault of their leadership who continues to propogate that hatred, who continue to preach that hatred, for the purposes of securing their own power.

This is bloodlust, simple bloodlust, no capitulation will change that.

So.... the solution to that is.... to make it worse by a land grab....

Well that's sure to work. *dusts hands*

So if they want peace, they're going to have to stop first.

They're not going to stop because, even if you were to think it was the Palestinians' own fault for the violence going on right now, it's too late to stop. The Palestinians know this. If they were to stop fighting, Israel would take advantage of that and silence them once and for all.

So.... the solution to that is.... to make it worse by a land grab....

Well that's sure to work. *dusts hands*

I never said it's a solution. I merely stated that not doing it isn't going to make anything better.

It wont, it will never make it better. Capitulation won't solve anything. And if Israel is damned if they do, damned if they don't, if nothing they do will stop the bloodlust, if nothing they can do will change it, then let them secure their own safety.

The blood libel has no historic evidence..

Doesnt matter. As its not referring to Arab blood lust its clearly untrue.


How many quotes do you want me to pull of Hamas leadership saying "we will destroy Israel?".

How many do you want referring to oppressed people (a) wanting to destroy oppressing people (b)? O..sorry. That might contradict the Science of Jew-Hating Arabs.


The leadership of Palestine, the leadership of Hezbollah will continue to goad their people into violence against israel because that is how they retain their power, by stirring their people against the enemy, provoking them, then condemning them when they respond to the provocation.
The leadership of these groups depend on their people's hatred of Israel. It's how they hold on to their power base.


I'm not a muslim, either now or formerly. If somebody was building colonies in my country under an armed occupation, I would require no stirring, prodding, or even salt to hate them and commit acts of violence. Its not an "Arab thing".

Depends how long till they get the message.

Ah, yes. because we all know just how much any government pays attention to the rantings on this forum.:rolleyes:

The truth is that this conflict long ago passed the mexican stand-off stage and has degraded into a fuckball of vengeance and dehumanisation.

In my head, one of the few ways to get out of this is by building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc., within the Palestinian areas so that the Palestinian themselves have all their physical needs met and they no longer face the daily desperation of living the third world lifestyle (does wonders for the waistline). When people are well fed and in no danger, they are less likely to seek danger.

Then provide them with an increasing role in the political system that rules them. This would take away the idea that they are oppressed. At this point, they would have no need to revolt or kill.

Mind you, the huge problem of corruption is a strong obstacle to my plan. But it beats genocide.

And you don't have to act in any certain way to have the land stolen from you returned.

Of course you do. If the Palestinians get the land back, they'll immediately put it to use as a launching pad for attacks against Israel. The only real solution to the problem in the Middle East is to send to Palestinians packing to Jordan or Egpyt if they continue to employ heinous strategies. They have forfeited their right to the land by slaughtering Israeli civilians indiscriminately.

...then let them secure their own safety.

...which leads me back to -???-

What have the settlements got to do with securing their safety?

Answer: Nothing. It's a land grab and does nothing to secure any safety, but in fact further fuels the fire of action against them. Continung that policy is simply stupid because it merely gives an excuse to groups like Hamas to point their finger and say "See! Told you all they care about is taking our land!"

Hmmmmm. None of which addresses why theres Israeli settlements outside Israels borders. Because as a non-muslim, I can safely say that I wouldnt take that lying down myself, regardless of the race or creed of the people waving the gun in my face.

Yeah, you're right, but even if Israel gave back all the settlements, those on private land and those that aren't, I don't think it would bring an end to this.

...which leads me back to -???-

What have the settlements got to do with securing their safety?

Answer: Nothing. It's a land grab and does nothing to secure any safety, but in fact further fuels the fire of action against them. Continung that policy is simply stupid because it merely gives an excuse to groups like Hamas to point their finger and say "See! Told you all they care about is taking our land!"

Incorrect, it provided a security area if nothing else. And you can't add fuel to a fire that would rage one way or the other.

If it wasn't "they're taking our land" it would be "they're taking the land of our brothers in lebanon", if it wasn't that it would be "they took our land in 67" and if it wasn't that it would be "they EXIST!"

The leadership of palestine has built their powerbase on creating hatred towards israel, and nothing will change in palestine until they give that up.

Of course not, it's absolutly cultural. They are raised in a culture that tells them, every day, that Israel, and the jews are their enemy. They are raised in a culture where the people in power have gotten into power, and hold on to their power, by preaching hate. They are raised in a culture dominated by leaders who manipulate their hate to secure their continued power.

Nothing to do with the armed men in their midst, fanatic settlers, historic greivances going back to the foundation of the Israeli state - they are "teh evbbil". Makes perfect sense.



Is it genetic? of course not. Is it even really their fault? No, not really. It is the fault of their leadership who continues to propogate that hatred, who continue to preach that hatred, for the purposes of securing their own power.

Yes, like simple children, who are riled up to acts of hate by low cunning types...Why not string a few up, like "Sanders of the River"? That'll show them. Anb then the decent natives can get back to being 3rd class servile non-entities in their own land....

Can't work though...its all about "blood lust".....

:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

During Jewish settlement in the region, the land was legally bought by Zionist organizations, but the Muslims couldn't handle their very existence. They started the Arab-Israeli War of 1948. They attacked first without provocation, so they deserve to lose their land. Besides, this issue is not about land, but about Islam. Why else would all those other Arab nations join the war? What is a Palestinian anyway? They are no distinct ethnic group. Palestinians are simply Syrians going by a different name. In fact, after the war, Egypt and Syria occupied the Gaza strip and West bank and refused to return it to the so-called "Palestinians" Anyone who denies that Islam is totally to blame for this conflict needs to read the Koran and what it has to say about Jews. Why else would Hezbollah and Iranian leaders launch an attack against a Jewish community center in Aregentina, which has no connection with Israel? Islam is the problem.:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Of course you do. If the Palestinians get the land back, they'll immediately put it to use as a launching pad for attacks against Israel. The only real solution to the problem in the Middle East is to send to Palestinians packing to Jordan or Egpyt if they continue to employ heinous strategies. They have forfeited their right to the land by slaughtering Israeli civilians indiscriminately.

This is the kind of alarmist thinking we need to back away from. If their land in the West Bank is returned, the Palestinian reasons for attacking Israel will largely disappear. It is the thorn in their side and with no Israelis on their land there will be much less of a problem then there was been since Israel turned expansionist.

Yeah, you're right, but even if Israel gave back all the settlements, those on private land and those that aren't, I don't think it would bring an end to this.

You're right. But what it would do is remove an excuse that extremist groups use as a rallying cry.

That's not a bad thing.

As I said, I just don't believe it. I don't believe the cause is the settlements. I don't believe the cause is Shabba farms, I don't believe the cause is the little children caught in crossfire.
So, I assume therefore that if, say Canada annexed a good proportion of the United States of America, and kids got killed in the ensuing conflict, that a continuation of that conflict would be nothing to do with annexion or the death of innocents?

I belive the cause is, that at the end of the day, The palestinians of Hamas and the Lebanese militants of Hezbollah just like killing jews.
And you don't believe that there is a cause of this, and that they want to kill Israelis because they want to kill Israelis?

And it doesn't matter what Israel does, it doesn't matter what steps they take, they'll just continue to like killing jews.
For some, yes. But on the whole, if there were a Palestinian State, most of the support for these extremists would be cut very quickly, since most (a good 89.1%) believe in a two state or a binational state solution), and hence would be less likely to be radicalised.

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Polls/JMCC_Opinion_Poll_Dec0505.pdf

And until they put down down their weapons and say "enough" they will continue to like killing jews.
So, do you therefore see that these people need to be persuaded in some way to lay down their arms?

And as long as they like killing jews Israel will keep killing them.
Who will, in turn, kill Israelis.

Want the settlements to go away? Want a nation of palestine? want Israel to leave you alone?

Stop freaking killing jews.
Want the suicide bombings to go away? Want to rockets to stop?

Stop freaking killing Palestinians.

See? It works two ways.

Incorrect, it provided a security area if nothing else...
Seeing as the security wall was built, that doesnt really make sense.



And you can't add fuel to a fire that would rage one way or the other..

Yeah, the "blood-lust"...Maybe it starts with their mothers feeding them Jewish Blood instead of milk....

Incorrect, it provided a security area if nothing else.
Hasn't worked has it? Whats the definition of insanity? Trying something repeatedly and expecting a different result?

And you can't add fuel to a fire that would rage one way or the other.
People were saying the same thing about the French and Germans in the 50's and 60's. The same thing in Northern Ireland etc etc.


If it wasn't "they're taking our land" it would be "they're taking the land of our brothers in lebanon", if it wasn't that it would be "they took our land in 67" and if it wasn't that it would be "they EXIST!"
Well, they'd have a point on '67, but that's another discussion.


The leadership of palestine has built their powerbase on creating hatred towards israel, and nothing will change in palestine until they give that up.
This leadership, yes. Palestinians in general, no.

This is the kind of alarmist thinking we need to back away from. If their land in the West Bank is returned, the Palestinian reasons for attacking Israel will largely disappear.

The Nazis didn't need a reason to massacre the Jews, and neither do the Arabs. There have been many attacks against Israel without any provocation whatsoever except bigotry. If Israel was in charge of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the quality of life in those regions would balloon rapidly -- they should have the land.

Nothing to do with the armed men in their midst, fanatic settlers, historic greivances going back to the foundation of the Israeli state - they are "teh evbbil". Makes perfect sense.




Yes, like simple children, who are riled up to acts of hate by low cunning types...Why not string a few up, like "Sanders of the River"? That'll show them. Anb then the decent natives can get back to being 3rd class servile non-entities in their own land....

Can't work though...its all about "blood lust".....

It is you who does them the disservice, not me. I recognize that it's a tough situation, I recognize that the average palestinian is a victim of propoganda deliberatly pushed on them by leadership that cares more about stiring rivalries than providing for its own people. A leadership that WILLINGLY keeps them destitute because it keeps them easier to control.

I am willing to say that the violence is not the fault of the regular people, they're being manipulate, they're being abused. I am willing to say that the people who make the attacks aren't really the bad guys, I'm even wiling to cut some of the "on the ground" terrorists some slack here.

But you see that as taking away their adulthood, of treating them like children. OK, have it your way. They are responsibile. And every one who attacks israel, any one who gives aid and comfort to those who attack israel, any one of them, have comitted treason. And treason gets you shot.

Happier that way?

:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

During Jewish settlement in the region, the land was legally bought by Zionist organizations, but the Muslims couldn't handle their very existence. They started the Arab-Israeli War of 1948. They attacked first without provocation, so they deserve to lose their land. Besides, this issue is not about land, but about Islam. Why else would all those other Arab nations join the war? What is a Palestinian anyway? They are no distinct ethnic group. Palestinians are simply Syrians going by a different name. In fact, after the war, Egypt and Syria occupied the Gaza strip and West bank and refused to return it to the so-called "Palestinians" Anyone who denies that Islam is totally to blame for this conflict needs to read the Koran and what it has to say about Jews. Why else would Hezbollah and Iranian leaders launch an attack against a Jewish community center in Aregentina, which has no connection with Israel? Islam is the problem.:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

*Sigh*

Perhaps without the finger and the headbanging you might be taken seriously...

:
During Jewish settlement in the region, the land was legally bought by Zionist organizations,:


Roughly 7% of what was then Palestine. Your point and its relevance to the colonies outside the state of israels borders?

The Nazis didn't need a reason to massacre the Jews, and neither do the Arabs. There have been many attacks against Israel without any provocation whatsoever except bigotry. If Israel was in charge of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the quality of life in those regions would balloon rapidly -- they should have the land.

Israel is in charge of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The Nazis didn't need a reason to massacre the Jews, and neither do the Arabs. There have been many attacks against Israel without any provocation whatsoever except bigotry. If Israel was in charge of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the quality of life in those regions would balloon rapidly -- they should have the land.

Arabs =/= Nazi's

You fail.

People were saying the same thing about the French and Germans in the 50's and 60's. The same thing in Northern Ireland etc etc.


Who was the aggressor in the 20s and 40s between france and germany? Germany.

Who moved towards peace first, who said they regretted their acts first? Who made the first moves to make peace through the political system? Germany.

Who disbanded their terrorist organizations? Who disavowed terrorist activities, who started to work within the political system? Ireland.

It worked because the aggressors stopped their aggression. It will work here, if the aggressors stop their aggression. The aggressors are the palestinian leadership.

They have to stop FIRST.


This leadership, yes. Palestinians in general, no.

yes, the LEADERSHIP is at fault, not the people. The people are being manipulated by their leadership. And unlike others I'm not going to pull the "it's the muslim's fault". It's the leadership's fault for using hate and fear to stir up aggrevation. It has nothing to do with Muslims. Hitler did it well, Stalin did it well, hell even Dubya (or at least Rove) did it well. It has nothing to do with "muslim" and all to do with leaders desperate to hold on to power.

ISRAEL IS EVIL!!!!!:mp5:
and by the way that was sarcasm:eek:

The Nazis didn't need a reason to massacre the Jews, and neither do the Arabs. There have been many attacks against Israel without any provocation whatsoever except bigotry. If Israel was in charge of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the quality of life in those regions would balloon rapidly -- they should have the land.

They do have control over the West Bank. But you fail to understand that the Palestinians want Israel OUT. There will be no increase in the quality of life when they continue to resist Israel's illegal occupation. And you don't see any Israeli help to them anyway, they live in the same overcrowded, dirty camps they always have lived in while Jewish squatters live well on land they have stolen. Simply more violence is going to come from Israel's policies. If Israel's government had any sense of morality they would pull out and stop the oppression of the people there. If they expect the violence to end while they have their bootheel on the necks of the refugees there then they are quite stupid. The UN should take action against their violation of international law that the world has simply ignored for the past few decades.

They do have military control over the West Bank. But you fail to understand that the Palestinians want Israel OUT. There will be no increase in the quality of life when they continue to resist Israel's illegal occupation. Simply more violence. If Israel's government had any sense of morality they would pull out and stop the oppression of the people there. If they expect the violence to end while they have their bootheel on the necks of the refugees there then they are quite stupid. The UN should take action against their violation of international law that the world has simply ignored for the past few decades.

One very simple question. Do you think the violence against Israel would stop, or even slow down, if they did withdraw?

Let's make one thing clear - the Israelis are just as much at fault as the Palestinians and the only innocent people are those who are unjustly caught in the crossfire.

The Israeli who fires on a Palestinian is just as guilty as the suicide bomber.

No one has clean hands in this matter.

No matter how much one claims that land was stolen, or how it rightfully belongs to one group, it won't change anything.

Both sides are obstinate and will never trust the other side as long as Israel has America as her lapdog and the Palestinian terrorist groups are propped up by Syrian and Iranian interests.

If peace is to happen and the land dispute is to end, both sides have to make the decision to try and trust the other and lay down arms. But, only in an ideal utopian world. Realistically, the chances of that happening are nil to none.

Sure there are plenty of asshole Israelis just as there are Palestinians asshats. That doesn't change that fact that innocent people are caught in the cross fire, and calling their deaths 'collateral damage' only proves that no one is interested in solving the conflict until it is acknowledged that the life of one Israeli is equal to that of a Palestinian.

Who was the aggressor in the 20s and 40s between france and germany? Germany.

Who moved towards peace first, who said they regretted their acts first? Who made the first moves to make peace through the political system? Germany.
Wow, never have I seen a more simplistic (and skewed) version of 20th century history. Nevermind.

Who disbanded their terrorist organizations? Who disavowed terrorist activities, who started to work within the political system? Ireland.

Emmm.... yeah. Again with the simplistic answer. Not particularly showering your answer with accuracy there.

It worked because the aggressors stopped their aggression.

No, it 'worked' because people reached a compromise

yes, the LEADERSHIP is at fault, not the people. The people are being manipulated by their leadership.
Which is why I dislike the policies of both the PA/Hamas and also the Israeli government - not the people of either.

It is you who does them the disservice, not me. I recognize that it's a tough situation, I recognize that the average palestinian is a victim of propoganda deliberatly pushed on them by leadership that cares more about stiring rivalries than providing for its own people. A leadership that WILLINGLY keeps them destitute because it keeps them easier to control.?

The ordinary pleb, pushed to hate the colonist, not because they have the brains to, but because the local chief riles them up. "Sanders of the river" part deux. String up the trouble makers and its back to "yes sahib" "no sahib" in time for tea.


I am willing to say that the violence is not the fault of the regular people, they're being manipulate, they're being abused. I am willing to say that the people who make the attacks aren't really the bad guys, I'm even wiling to cut some of the "on the ground" terrorists some slack here..?

Of course. How could a simple group of uncivillised yahoos possibly have a genuine objection to being colonised...really....madness...



But you see that as taking away their adulthood, of treating them like children. OK, have it your way. They are responsibile. And every one who attacks israel, any one who gives aid and comfort to those who attack israel, any one of them, have comitted treason. And treason gets you shot.


They are not Israeli citizens, by Israeli law, or anyone elses, for that matter. How can they therefore commit treason? You do realise what the term "occupied territory" refers to? I would have thought the "outside Israels borders" bit was a bit of a giveaway too.

They do have military control over the West Bank.

However, that is the extent of their control. They do not have any social or economic control over the region.

There will be no increase in the quality of life when they continue to resist Israel's illegal occupation.

Resistance against Israel would be futile. There are simply not enough people capable of successfully carrying out a guerrilla war against Israel, not to mention that they would be told to leave. If the Palestinians choose not to evacuate in two weeks, they would be shot and the entirely of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be utterly destroyed.

One very simple question. Do you think the violence against Israel would stop, or even slow down, if they did withdraw?

Yes.

However, that is the extent of their control. They do not have any social or economic control over the region.

Resistance against Israel would be futile. There are simply not enough people capable of successfully carrying out a guerrilla war against Israel, not to mention that they would be told to leave. If the Palestinians choose not to evacuate in two weeks, they would be shot and the entirely of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be utterly destroyed.

And Israel will never have any further control over the region. And since when has a low chance of success ever stopped anyone from acting in their best interests? Any kind of revolution or guerrilla war is unlikely to succeed on the face of it but then you can look at all the successes of the past. No, if the Palestinians were really smart they would restrict their attacks on Israeli government and military targets. This would allow them to strike without giving them the easy label of terrorists which they certainly deserve at this moment.

The ordinary pleb, pushed to hate the colonist, not because they have the brains to, but because the local chief riles them up. "Sanders of the river" part deux. String up the trouble makers and its back to "yes sahib" "no sahib" in time for tea.



Of course. How could a simple group of uncivillised yahoos possibly have a genuine objection to being colonised...really....madness...


Oh get off your god damned righteous high horse for a moment. I'm not insulting their intelligence, I'm not insulting their passion.

I am noting that if government entities have the ability to stir the AMERICAN people, who by every reasonable measure are better educated, better informed on world affairs, better able to access multitudes of media and viewpoints can still be manipulated into supporting a war in a nation just because they shared the same religion as some folks who knocked a few towers down, it is not a fucking insult to suggest that people who largely live with NO education, no access to information other than state sponsered, many of whom don't have electricity even, not because they're stupid but because it is simply the conditions they live in, can be manipulated by their government

Seriously, drop the righteous indignation, it just makes you look blockheaded without a willingness to look at reality.

Yes.



Well, I disagree, I think you are being grossly overoptimistic.

Well, I disagree, I think you are being grossly overoptimistic.

Well I think you're being really, really pessimistic, even for this region.
*shrug*

I've said everything I needed to.

Well, I disagree, I think you are being grossly overoptimistic.

While I don't think the attacks on Israel will miraculously stop, I do feel that they will be a noticebale reduction in the violence against Israel. The Palestinians being occupied no longer being an issue could only help the situation. Besides, as I've states already, their presense in the West Bank is illegal to begin with, they have no business being there and forcing the people to live in those awful camps should be considered a crime the whole world needs to condemn. Giving the Palestinians back the West Bank is at the very least simply the right thing to do.

Giving the Palestinians back the West Bank is at the very least simply the right thing to do.

I agree with you that it's the morally correct thing to do, and may be the long term smart thing to do as it takes some ammunition away from hamas, but I won't be so optimistic as to suggest that as far as Iraeli safety goes it will make one bit of difference.

Oh get off your god damned righteous high horse for a moment. I'm not insulting their intelligence, I'm not insulting their passion..

I beg to differ on the former and latter. Its hard to think of what you aren't insulting, in fact. However -

This was you, wasn't it? Page 2 of this thread...?

"I think that this is simply a justification, a smokescreen, a "look at us we've been wronged and we're upset" excuse to cover up the fact that at the end of the day, they simply just like killing jews.

And nothing Israel does, no matter how nice they are, no matter how much they give in, is going to change the fact that they just like killing jews."

And referring to the Palestinians again later on in the thread ...?
"Is it genetic? of course not. Is it even really their fault? No, not really. It is the fault of their leadership who continues to propogate that hatred, who continue to preach that hatred, for the purposes of securing their own power."


I am noting that if government entities have the ability to stir the AMERICAN people, who by every reasonable measure are better educated, better informed on world affairs, better able to access multitudes of media and viewpoints can still be manipulated into supporting a war in a nation just because they shared the same religion as some folks who knocked a few towers down, it is not a fucking insult to suggest that people who largely live with NO education, no access to information other than state sponsered, many of whom don't have electricity even, not because they're stupid but because it is simply the conditions they live in, can be manipulated by their government

Aha. And would you say that the American people were being manipulated if Iraq was where Canada is and a colony of fanatical people from there was across the street in what used to be their families olive grove armed to the teeth and guarded by a professional foriegn army?

Or would it take some "propoganda" to spell it out for them.......being uneducated, and lacking the indepedent information required to make an informed decision?


Seriously, drop the righteous indignation, it just makes you look blockheaded without a willingness to look at reality.


mmmhmmmm......
"I think that this is simply a justification, a smokescreen, a "look at us we've been wronged and we're upset" excuse to cover up the fact that at the end of the day, they simply just like killing jews."

While I don't think the attacks on Israel will miraculously stop, I do feel that they will be a noticebale reduction in the violence against Israel. The Palestinians being occupied no longer being an issue could only help the situation. Besides, as I've states already, their presense in the West Bank is illegal to begin with, they have no business being there and forcing the people to live in those awful camps should be considered a crime the whole world needs to condemn. Giving the Palestinians back the West Bank is at the very least simply the right thing to do.
Consider this as a possible scenerio if the right social conditions existed...

Even if they don't leave, they should take the tanks out and show a gesture of good will by offering money to the people and helping them build up the area. It seems odd, but, if people have a roof over their hand, decent living conditions and their outlook doesn't appear so bleak, they will stop listening to the terrorists and even join in condemning the action. Israel could help by making jobs for the people.

Of course, this idea will get chewed up and thrown out, but, if you consider it if this was a North America city you were talking of, and that part of the city was really sleazy, kind of really slummy, known for its high crime rates, you'd see how this might work. When people have good living conditions, good prospects, knowing they can count on their next meal to come, they will not feel compelled to commit crimes, just as a terrorist has no cause when his family is fed, housed and he has a real job.

Consider this as a possible scenerio if the right social conditions existed...

Even if they don't leave, they should take the tanks out and show a gesture of good will by offering money to the people and helping them build up the area. It seems odd, but, if people have a roof over their hand, decent living conditions and their outlook doesn't appear so bleak, they will stop listening to the terrorists and even join in condemning the action. Israel could help by making jobs for the people.

Of course, this idea will get chewed up and thrown out, but, if you consider it if this was a North America city you were talking of, and that part of the city was really sleazy, kind of really slummy, known for its high crime rates, you'd see how this might work. When people have good living conditions, good prospects, knowing they can count on their next meal to come, they will not feel compelled to commit crimes, just as a terrorist has no cause when his family is fed, housed and he has a real job.

I would also love it if Israel would take care of the people there, in previous threads about Iraq that has been one of my major beliefs, that people who actually have a life, shelter, food, clothing, things like that, then it will make it less likely that they will engage in fighting. No one wants to spend money on infanstructure though when military expendetures seem so much easier... :(

I would also love it if Israel would take care of the people there, in previous threads about Iraq that has been one of my major beliefs, that people who actually have a life, shelter, food, clothing, things like that, then it will make it less likely that they will engage in fighting. No one wants to spend money on infanstructure though when military expendetures seem so much easier... :(
The military expenditures seem easier, but those, like increase sentences for any crime, as well as curfews and anything to curb terrorism doesn't work as long as people feel that they have nothing to lose. When there is a lot at stake, people think twice.

Does anyone here think that a Palestinian will decide to become a suicide bomber if he has a roof over his family's head, his family is fed, his has a job, his family has an income, and they're dependant on him?

.

Does anyone here think that a Palestinian will decide to become a suicide bomber if he has a roof over his family's head, his family is fed, his has a job, his family has an income, and they're dependant on him?

A suicide bomber? Possibly not, but somebody committed to getting a palestinian state is almost inevitable. Its the kind of notion thats hard to stop when it catches on. And you seem to forget that Israel doesnt want them as citizens, because it would create an Arab majority.

People listen to extremists and are more willing to fight when they have nothing to lose. As long as life is shit, people will continue to listen to hatemongers, because they want someone to blame for their condition and it's so much easier when you feel there's a tangible enemy.

The fact that Israel actually has stolen land from them doesn't make things any better.

Do I think that withdrawing from the West Bank would end the violence? No, I don't.

I do think it would make some Palestinians less willing to listen to the extremists though.

There aren't really any good guys in this conflict and sometimes I feel that maybe we should just ignore them and let them kill each other until they grow sick of it (which will take a long long long time).

Both sides need to compromise, everybody has blood on their hands.

A suicide bomber? Possibly not, but somebody committed to getting a palestinian state is almost inevitable. Its the kind of notion thats hard to stop when it catches on. And you seem to forget that Israel doesnt want them as citizens, because it would create an Arab majority.
If they don't want them, then this would be the fastest way to get rid of them. Building a security fence doesn't make for good neighbours. If they want to be rid of them, helping the people build up will reduce the influence terrorist groups have. Yes, it won't wipe out terrorism, but, it'll make a lot of people think twice.

Once that area can stand on its own two feet, they will condemn terrorists that pop up in their backyard because they will see them as destabilising factors.

I'm only saying this, permitting that the conditions for this were right.

You guys seem to like talking about the Palestinians as if they are all one group of people, and all have the same thoughts and reactions. Really, there are two major groups to consider: the hate groups, like Hamas and Hezbolla, who would probably continue hating and advocating violence against Israel no matter what, and the normal people, who just want to go about their lives. The big problem is that Hez and other groups have been very sucessful in convincing the people that Israel wants to kill and enslave them. Israel has provided just enough examples to make this seem very plausible. If Israel did a complete about face overnight, abandoned the settlements, watched their own borders, enforced military discipline, and were incredibly careful to keep from committing atrocities, well, at first no one would trust them. but after a while, the common people would have enough, and would go back to living their lives. The hate groups can never be convinced, but the people can.

People listen to extremists and are more willing to fight when they have nothing to lose. As long as life is shit, people will continue to listen to hatemongers, because they want someone to blame for their condition and it's so much easier when you feel there's a tangible enemy.
Exactly! To get them to no longer listen, they need to have something worth living for and avoiding violence for.

This land was STOLEN FROM US centuries before. Also, Palestinians are not from that area.

This land was STOLEN FROM US centuries before. Also, Palestinians are not from that area.
But, that land was stolen from the animals who roamed freely, without having to worry about the scourge that is humanity.

http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/clam-quahog.jpg

Best thing to do would be let the Palestinians build casinos on what remains of their land.

Best thing to do would be let the Palestinians build casinos on what remains of their land.

lol, it worked for 'dem "injuns"!

Best thing to do would be let the Palestinians build casinos on what remains of their land.
And it would be perfectly legal. They keep the profits and the Jews gamble. Ah, the gentle cycle that is life.

And it would be perfectly legal. They keep the profits and the Jews gamble. Ah, the gentle cycle that is life.

Perhaps that is the answer. The violence will stop once gambling is widespread. Jews and Muslims alike will lose their shirts side by side. :)

To say the settlements are the cause of the conflict is to deny the history of the conflict. Fedayeen gangs from the Gaza Strip and West Bank attacked Jewish villages since the end of the 48 war (which the Arabs or course started).

If you want to go back to attacks on Jews, that has been ongoing since the Mufti took power (you know, the leader of the Palestinians who was a high ranking SS officer).

This land was STOLEN FROM US centuries before. Also, Palestinians are not from that area.

Genetics seems to say differently. "stolen" by who from who, by the way? There were Jews there at the time the settlement began.


But, that land was stolen from the animals who roamed freely, without having to worry about the scourge that is humanity..

Damn right. Two legged hairless bastards, filled with blood-lust.


To say the settlements are the cause of the conflict is to deny the history of the conflict..

Land was at the heart of the original dispute. This is currently the main source of contention, along with who gets Arab East Jerusalem. It is located in an area outside Israels recognised borders. While the origins of the conflict cannot be revisited and settled now, this quite possibly can.

Are you going to address the OP? Or is that too "real" for you?

To say the settlements are the cause of the conflict is to deny the history of the conflict. Fedayeen gangs from the Gaza Strip and West Bank attacked Jewish villages since the end of the 48 war (which the Arabs or course started).

If you want to go back to attacks on Jews, that has been ongoing since the Mufti took power (you know, the leader of the Palestinians who was a high ranking SS officer).

Arabs didnt start the 48 war. They were invaded by jews and fought back against this invasion of their land and threat to their people.

As I said, I just don't believe it. I don't believe the cause is the settlements. I don't believe the cause is Shabba farms, I don't believe the cause is the little children caught in crossfire.

I belive the cause is, that at the end of the day, The palestinians of Hamas and the Lebanese militants of Hezbollah just like killing jews.

And it doesn't matter what Israel does, it doesn't matter what steps they take, they'll just continue to like killing jews.

And until they put down down their weapons and say "enough" they will continue to like killing jews.

And as long as they like killing jews Israel will keep killing them.

Want the settlements to go away? Want a nation of palestine? want Israel to leave you alone?

Stop freaking killing jews.
no, just stop. This wrong on so many levels.

no, just stop. This wrong on so many levels.

You have Hitler and the Koran in your sig and have referred to "the Jew". You therefore cannot really say anything and be taken seriously (but particularily on this topic...'Nein' as they say).

"More than a third of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are built on privately owned Palestinian land, an Israeli campaign group has reported.
Peace Now says nearly 40% of the land the settlements sit on is, according to official data, "effectively stolen" from Palestinian landowners.

This, the group says, is a violation of Israel's own laws. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6168752.stm

Any excuses? I know the usual apologists run like fuckery away from things like this, but I could do with a laugh.
Israel is an apartheid state, so I am not surprised.

Trilby63;11980794']As is bombing on the sabbath.
I doubt that's against Israeli law. It's not a Jewish theocracy, in fairness.

Fedayeen gangs from the Gaza Strip and West Bank attacked Jewish villages since the end of the 48 war (which the Arabs or course started).
And of course the Israelis have been totally innocent of attacks on civilains...

Some events arounf the time of the '48 war

Some of the language is a bit harsher than I would choose, (which considering the topic...) and is quoted from (Link removed due to graphic images of dead people - if you want to find it use your google skills and the direct quotes below) which while I admit is not exactly an unbaised source I challenge anyone to find a neutral source on this issue...

The King David Massacre, 1946: 92 dead
This attack was carried out by the Irgun terrorist organization and with the knowledge of David Ben Gurion, the highest-ranking Zionist official of the period. A total of 92 people, consisting of Britons, Palestinians, and Jews, were killed, and 45 were seriously injured.

Baldat Al-Shaikh Massacre, 1947: 60 dead
Sixty Palestinians sleeping in their beds, among them women, children, and the elderly, lost their lives as a result of this attack, which was carried out by 150-200 Zionist terrorists. The attack began at 2:00 a.m. and lasted for 4 hours.

Yehida Massacre, 1947: 13 dead
At Yehida, one of the first Zionist settlements, Zionist assailants dressed as British soldiers opened fire on Muslims.

Khisas Massacre, 1947: 10 dead
Two cars full of Haganah members entered the village of Khisas on the Lebanese border and opened fire on everyone who crossed their paths.

Qazaza Massacre, 1947: 5 children dead
Five children lost their lives in this episode, in which Zionist terrorists attacked a random house.

The Semiramis Hotel Massacre, 1948: 19 dead
In an operation aimed at making the Palestinians uneasy and forcing them out of Jerusalem, a group of Zionist terrorists directed by Israel's first president, David Ben Gurion, blew up the Semiramis Hotel. Nineteen people were killed.

Naser al-Din Massacre, 1948
A group of Zionist terrorists dressed as Arab soldiers opened fire on those townspeople who left their homes to greet them. Only 40 people escaped the carnage, and the village was wiped off the map.

The Tantura Massacre, 1948: 200 dead
Tantura, now home to about 1,500 Jewish settlers, was the site of a large massacre of Muslims in 1948. Israeli historian Teddy Katz described the attack as follows: "From the numbers, this is definitely one of the biggest massacres."

The Dahmash Mosque Massacre, 1948: 100 dead
Israeli 89th Commando Battalion lead by the future Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan, announced to the villagers that they would be safe only if they assembled at the mosque. However, the 100 Muslims who sought refuge there were slaughtered. The terrified residents of Lydda and Ramle abandoned their lands. Approximately 60,000 Palestinians emigrated, and 350 more died en route due to poor medical conditions.

Dawayma Massacre, 1948: 100 dead
This attack was one of the largest Israeli massacres. A majority of those killed were assembled at the mosque for Friday prayers. Palestinian women were raped during the attack, and homes were dynamited with people inside them.

Houla Massacre, 1948: 85 dead
Israeli soldiers forced 85 people into a house and then set it on fire. Afterwards, most of the terrified residents fled to Beirut. Of the 12,000 original residents of Houla, only 1,200 remained.

Salha Massacre, 1948: 105 dead
After residents of the village were forced into the mosque, the people were fired upon until not a single person remained alive.

Deir Yassin Massacre, 1948: 254 dead
The fact that the world agenda is controlled by the Western media, most of which is pro-Israeli, sometimes prevents events occurring within Israel from coming to light. But some incidents of such violence and cruelty have been documented in detail by international organizations. This is one of those incidents, and was carried out by the Irgun and Stern terrorist organizations.
On the night of April 9, 1948, the people of Deir Yassin awoke to the order "evacuate the village" coming from loudspeakers. Before they understood what was happening, they had been slaughtered. Subsequent Red Cross and United Nations investigations conducted at the scene showed that houses were first set on fire and that all people trying to escape the flames were shot dead. During the attack, pregnant women were bayoneted in their abdomens while still alive. The victims' organs were mutilated, and even children were beaten and raped. Throughout the Deir Yassin massacre, 52 children were maimed under the eyes of their own mothers, and then they were slain and their heads cut off. More than 60 women were killed and their bodies mutilated.35 One woman who escaped alive related the following atrocity that she had witnessed:
I saw a soldier grabbing my sister, Saliha al-Halabi, who was nine months pregnant. He pointed a machine gun at her neck, then emptied its contents into her body. Then he turned into a butcher, and grabbed a knife and ripped open her stomach to take out the slaughtered childe with his iniquitious Nazi knife.36
Not satisfied with just the massacre, the terrorists then rounded up all the women and girls who remained alive, removed all their clothes, put them in open cars, driving them naked through the streets of the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Jacques Reynier, the Red Cross representative of Palestine at the time, who saw the mutilated bodies during his visit to Deir Yassin the day after the attack, could only say: "The situation was horrible."37
During the course of the attack, 280 Muslims, among them women and children, were first paraded through the streets and then shot execution-style. Most of the girls had been raped before their execution, and the boys' genitals had been cut off.38
It should be pointed out that the terrorists who carried out this atrocity were not members of radical organizations acting outside the law or beyond the government's control; rather, they were controlled directly by the Israeli government. The Deir Yassin massacre was carried by the Irgun and Stern gangs, under the direct leadership of Menachem Begin, the future prime minister of Israel.
Begin described this inhuman operation, merely one example of the official policy of Israeli brutality, in these words: "The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state of Israel without the 'victory' at Deir Yassin."39 Zionists used such attacks to terrorize the Palestinians and drive them from their land so that the immigrating Jews would have a place to settle. Israel Eldad, a famous Zionist leader, expressed this truth openly when he said: "Had it not been for Deir Yassin - half a million Arabs would be living in the state of Israel [in 1948]. The State of Israel would not have existed."40
The Zionists considered this type of ethnic cleansing as vital to establishing the state of Israel. Indeed these operations, which continued after the Deir Yassin attack, caused many Palestinians either to abandon their land and flee, or to suffer the same fate as the residents of Deir Yassin.

You have Hitler and the Koran in your sig and have referred to "the Jew". You therefore cannot really say anything and be taken seriously (but particularily on this topic...'Nein' as they say).

You are just ignoring what he said. Really, this is the sign of a very poor debater; when he/she has to find a reason to ignore what someone else said and looks for any excuse to do so.

Arabs didnt start the 48 war. They were invaded by jews and fought back against this invasion of their land and threat to their people.
... buh?
at 8 o'clock in the morning, in what came to be seen as the opening shots of the 1948 War,[51] three Arabs attacked a bus from Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five Jewish passengers.
Over the months following the partition, larger organized forces became increasingly engaged. The Arab Legion, still officially a unit of the British Army, attacked a Jewish civilian bus convoy at Beit Nabala on 14 December. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by a pro-German Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.
Icovir, Soviestan has stated several times that the Jews in Israel should be exterminated... Frankly, he has no credibility on this subject.

You are just ignoring what he said. Really, this is the sign of a very poor debater; when he/she has to find a reason to ignore what someone else said and looks for any excuse to do so.

He has nothing to add, and detracts from any serious debate on the topic. As for my posts, they are as they are.

And of course the Israelis have been totally innocent of attacks on civilains...
May we have a source please? (I'm asking because it'll help lend credibility to your argument).

May we have a source please? (I'm asking because it'll help lend credibility to your argument).

You skimmed a little too fast - the link is in the first couple of lines where I say:

and is quoted from (Link self removed - use google if you want the source), which while I admit is not exactly an unbaised source I challenge anyone to find a neutral source on this issue...

I am aware there was plenty from each side throughout the ME - but I find it to be an effort to re-write history to pretend that the Jewish immigrants (at the time most were arriving from overseas via illegal immigration) were not openly hostile to non-Jews and did not engage in terrorist activities, while also pretending that the arab hostility to the incomng Jews was totally unprovoked.

You skimmed a little too fast - the link is in the first couple of lines where I say:
Ok, so, I skipped RIGHT to the details and read the part that wasn't you blathering. ;) Ok, you're free to go.

You skimmed a little too fast - the link is in the first couple of lines where I say:



I am aware there was plenty from each side throughout the ME - but I find it to be an effort to re-write history to pretend that the Jewish immigrants (at the time most were arriving from overseas via illegal immigration) were not openly hostile to non-Jews and did not engage in terrorist activities, while also pretending that the arab hostility to the incomng Jews was totally unprovoked.

You might want to pull that link. Quite a few of the shots break the TOS.

May we have a source please? (I'm asking because it'll help lend credibility to your argument).

10-YEAR OLD CHILD KILLED IN
UNRWA SCHOOL IN GAZA
http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/releases/pr-2005/hqg01-05.pdf

"More than 60 Palestinian women have given birth at Israeli checkpoints since 2000 and 36 of their babies have died as a result, says a UN report.
Prepared by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, it examines the impact of the checkpoints on pregnant women.

The report says the delays force women to give birth unaided and some women and their children die as a result."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274400.stm

"8 Aug. 2006: Almost half the fatalities in the Gaza Strip in July were civilians not taking part in the hostilities

In July, the Israeli military killed 163 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, 78 of whom (48 percent) were not taking part in the hostilities when they were killed. Thirty-six of the fatalities were minors, and 20 were women. In the West Bank , 15 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in July. The number of Palestinian fatalities in July was the highest in any month since April 2002. "
http://www.btselem.org/english/firearms/20060808_Civilians_killed_in_Gaza.asp

Ok, so, I skipped RIGHT to the details and read the part that wasn't you blathering. ;) Ok, you're free to go.

There was a whole 5 lines! All relevent without waffle!!

You might want to pull that link. Quite a few of the shots break the TOS.
Ahh - good point. I've removed it - sorry mods.

There was a whole 5 lines! All relevent without waffle!
Wah! Five lines? That's five more than I wanted to read! ;)

Do we really need ANOTHER Israel is Evil thread?

was that established already?

That is indeed their pretext, but it is not the real reason. It's like a kid saying that he is lacking his homework because his "dog ate it." Well, you just bought that excuse hook, line, and sinker. Ever since the emergence of the proud Israeli state amid the wreck that is the Middle East, the Arabs have done their best to destroy Israel. They just hate Israel, regardless of what it does. If the Palestinians want their land back, they must first behave like human beings and not crazed, rabid animals (although that comparison is somewhat unfair to the animals).

lets start a minority state in your country! u knoe what lets get ur dog to annex your living room and master bedroom! and you sleep in the toilet.. is that alrite with you? and on a daily basis... when u try to crawl out of the toilet... the dog bites you. i think that would be cool for u. i think you would enjoy such a living environment, absolutely fitting =)

This land was STOLEN FROM US centuries before. Also, Palestinians are not from that area.


this argument means that.. china gives back Mancuria to the manchu, tibet to well the tibet ppl.... the Russia wold be greatly reduced as tehy have to give it all back to teh ethenic minorities.. i also think all of the USA shoudl be given back to the natives, the white man wasnt from that area.... we shud revert back to borders to before the time of Christ ppl!

this argument means that.. china gives back Mancuria to the manchu, tibet to well the tibet ppl.... the Russia wold be greatly reduced as tehy have to give it all back to teh ethenic minorities.. i also think all of the USA shoudl be given back to the natives, the white man wasnt from that area.... we shud revert back to borders to before the time of Christ ppl!

It also implies that any non pure-blood jews should not be allowed back, as if they are less than half genetically decended from the region then they are invading the land of the jews...

Land was at the heart of the original dispute. This is currently the main source of contention, along with who gets Arab East Jerusalem. It is located in an area outside Israels recognised borders. While the origins of the conflict cannot be revisited and settled now, this quite possibly can.

Are you going to address the OP? Or is that too "real" for you?

The original dispute was not about land. The Jews were only on land they owned when the Mufti's militias began attacking the Kibbutzim and Moshavim in the 20s. It was about getting infidels out of the Islamic world.

As for East Jerusalem, Israel recognized it as an international city under a UN flag under the partition. The Jordanians then siezed it during the 48 war along with the West Bank. It is important to note they took UN land in taking Jerusalem. They didn't take Israeli land there.

Israel never wanted to take it in 67. The pre-emptive strikes were made against Egypt and Syria, who were plotting attacks against Israel.

Jordan was asked to not aid them because Israel didn't want to fight Jordan and wouldn't do so unless attacked. Jordan decided to aid Egypt and Syria. They invaded Israel and Israel gained East Jerusalem and the West Bank in the counter-attack.

----------------------------------------------

As for the settlements, Israel would've pulled out of them had it not been for the war. Kadima ran on a platform of pullouts and was overwhelmingly elected despite the Hamas victory. The war over the Summer and the capture of Gilad Shalit destroyed any chance of an Israeli pullout in the near future. The existance of those settlements past the year 2008 will be fully the fault of the Palestinians and their terrorist government.

It also implies that any non pure-blood jews should not be allowed back, as if they are less than half genetically decended from the region then they are invading the land of the jews...

as soon as you used the words "allowed" and "invading" you kinda look stupid.

The land may be "given back" to a certain group, but once they have posession of it, and it's their own sovereing nation, they can do sorta whatever the hell they want with it.

Gotta love being sovereign after all.

However, that is the extent of their control. They do not have any social or economic control over the region


Resistance against Israel would be futile. There are simply not enough people capable of successfully carrying out a guerrilla war against Israel, not to mention that they would be told to leave. If the Palestinians choose not to evacuate in two weeks, they would be shot and the entirely of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be utterly destroyed.

yet the PLO, Hamas, PFPLO etc have been engaging in a resistance war for 50 years.

israel doesnt excert social and economic control over the palestine? :confused:

trust you to have an oversimplified, macho, right wing view on the whole thing

The original dispute was not about land. The Jews were only on land they owned when the Mufti's militias began attacking the Kibbutzim and Moshavim in the 20s. It was about getting infidels out of the Islamic world..

"militias"? You mean the riots over unemployment, the fear that the settlers were going to take over (what a mad idea) and the fact that the Brits has promised them independence and then shafted them? The mufti was not considered a major figure in instigating those by the invesigations at the time.


As for East Jerusalem, Israel recognized it as an international city under a UN flag under the partition. The Jordanians then siezed it during the 48 war along with the West Bank. ..

"stopped Israeli forces grabbing.." you mean?


It is important to note they took UN land in taking Jerusalem. They didn't take Israeli land there.



As for the settlements, Israel would've pulled out of them had it not been for the war. Kadima ran on a platform of pullouts and was overwhelmingly elected despite the Hamas victory.
..

Total withdrawal? Are you POSITIVE?



The war over the Summer and the capture of Gilad Shalit destroyed any chance of an Israeli pullout in the near future. The existance of those settlements past the year 2008 will be fully the fault of the Palestinians and their terrorist government.

And nothing at all to do with the state thats been building them there against all law and reason for 30 years, turning a blind eye when it hasnt been directly involved and providing military protection for the fanatics who dwell in them. Yes. Makes sense.

Note to self - always finish blaming victim. Eg Boy killed by tank = tank attacked, defends self, regrets loss of life but thats how the cookie crumbles when having to occupy badly armed peasants who won't lie down and die.

By the way, was it the fault of the Palestinians that settlers stole land to build their little colonies on...?

Hahahahaa....

This has been another "NOW YOU KNOW" moment brought by the proud Cree woman formerly known as Sinuhue.


omg

you've been back since August and you never told me? :eek: :(

*feels so unloved now*

well welcome back and I missed you greatly!

so much to talk about... my wife has Hodgkins Lymphoma and is currently going thru chemo

She seems to be handling it pretty well so far. she hasnt puked yet although she has had mild nausea and her hair should be falling out around this coming Saturday.

You know what? The Pale's should be gratful to have the Israelis on their land. Have you seen what Israel has been able to do with their lot of the desert? Turned into a paradise. What have the Pale's done? Nothing. They can't even provide basic necessities for their people half the time. Me thinks it would be smart of them to let the Israelis build settlements, advance their region, and just assimilate in to the society.

By the way, was it the fault of the Palestinians that settlers stole land to build their little colonies on...?


Yes. IIRC, they have had so many chances to have their own state, which means these colonies would never have been built there, if they had just given up the hopes of killing t3h j00s.

You have Hitler and the Koran in your sig and have referred to "the Jew". You therefore cannot really say anything and be taken seriously (but particularily on this topic...'Nein' as they say).

What I have in my sig has nothing to do with my knowledge of the subject.

You know what? The Pale's should be gratful to have the Israelis on their land. Have you seen what Israel has been able to do with their lot of the desert? Turned into a paradise. What have the Pale's done? Nothing. They can't even provide basic necessities for their people half the time. Me thinks it would be smart of them to let the Israelis build settlements, advance their region, and just assimilate in to the society.

The Israelis turn the desert that they live on into paradise, look at Gaza or the West bank, its a total shit-hole. If the Israelis were to colonize Gaza or the WB they would kick all of the Palestinians out, and force them into some other ghetto.

... buh?

The jews started the war without firing a shot. Their illegal invasion of Palestine was an act of war.


Frankly, he has no credibility on this subject.

Bullshit, my credibility on the subject greater than yours I'm sure.

The Israelis turn the desert that they live on into paradise, look at Gaza or the West bank, its a total shit-hole. If the Israelis were to colonize Gaza or the WB they would kick all of the Palestinians out, and force them into some other ghetto.

Forcing the Palestianians into a ghetto. The Kahanists fail to see the irony in that.

If anyone is tired of finger pointing and rehatching old pointless arguments, then come over to this thread: Clicky! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11984828)

Otherwise, stay here. It's amusing to watch you people beat each other over the heads with nerf bats.

Roughly 7% of what was then Palestine. Your point and its relevance to the colonies outside the state of israels borders?

The colonies? simple. Those who attack Israel deserve to lose their land. The Muslims (not just "palestinians" but the whole Middle East) were fighting a war to exterminate the Israelis. The Israelis were gracious enough not to retaliate in an equal manner.

The colonies? simple. Those who attack Israel deserve to lose their land. The Muslims (not just "palestinians" but the whole Middle East) were fighting a war to exterminate the Israelis. The Israelis were gracious enough not to retaliate in an equal manner.

no, they were fighting a war to exterminate the israeli state, a profound difference to exterminating 'israelis'

so when israel goes on the offensive, does it deserve to lose land or are you yet another zionist hypocrite?

You know what? The Pale's(racist nonsense)in to the society.

Hmmm. Very christian of you to enter this mass of untruth.

Answer me this, o purveyor of cliched colonist nonsense, if Palestine was exporting agricultural produce in 1946, and Arabs owned about 80% of the agricultural land, who do you think were the ones who cultivated that land? Have a think.


The colonies? simple. Those who attack Israel deserve to lose their land..

But theres still a Germany, a Japan. Why is there a seperate rule for Israel?

as soon as you used the words "allowed" and "invading" you kinda look stupid.

The land may be "given back" to a certain group, but once they have posession of it, and it's their own sovereing nation, they can do sorta whatever the hell they want with it.

Gotta love being sovereign after all.

It was a glib point - if the basis for ownership is that they are descended from people who used to live there then people who are descended mostly from people who did not come from there kinda get shot down in their "by my ancestors" used to live there - as most of their ancestors did not. They might have a 1/16 heritage for the land - or even less - 1/32 or 1/64.

As to land being "Given back" - I think "Taken back" reflects the situation outside the Green Line a bit better.

You know what? The Pale's should be gratful to have the Israelis on their land. They can't even provide basic necessities for their people half the time. Me thinks it would be smart of them to let the Israelis build settlements, advance their region, and just assimilate in to the society.

Amazing that they have difficulty in providing for their people when their borders are controled by Israel, and any investment is under constant risk of being airstruck/bulldozed.

Kinda like how the Jews in the Gettos found it a bit hard to provide for their people then.

Any excuses? I know the usual apologists run like fuckery away from things like this, but I could do with a laugh.

You haven't seen the idiot response of the settlers to this, I take it.

i met the palistinian ambassabor(spelling?) to ireland yesterday. very nice man. funny too. he told me he wanted end the conflict with talks that result in a two state agreement, but he said the problem is that israel wont recognise them.

i met the palistinian ambassabor(spelling?) to ireland yesterday. very nice man. funny too. he told me he wanted end the conflict with talks that result in a two state agreement, but he said the problem is that israel wont recognise them.

Yep, because they're "terorrists". Or some excuse. They wouldnt deal with Arafat until he recognised Israel. He did, and then they got a new reason....

someone said last night, in suport of israel, that the wall has most deffinately reduced the ammount of attacks on israel, it just would be nicer if they allowed a bit of plumbing to go through.

Amazing that they have difficulty in providing for their people when their borders are controled by Israel, and any investment is under constant risk of being airstruck/bulldozed.

Kinda like how the Jews in the Gettos found it a bit hard to provide for their people then.

Abused Child Syndrome. The Israelis realized just how much fun oppressing and systematically eradicating a "lesser species" can be.

"Never Again" doesn't apply to brown people.