NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I assume you already know about the Spanish war (fascist dictator Fransisco Franco, supported by Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy) against the Spanish Republic (aided by the international brigades and CCCP).

I think that the Spanish war is very important, because it changed deeply the european checkboard. If Franco had lost, then, assuming that the Axis would have invaded France in 1940, Britain and the Allies would have had already a foot in Europe, so there would have been no D-Day, at least as we known have.

By allowing Franco to take over Spain, France and Britain showed weakness, and the Nazis exploited that with the Sudeten-Czechoslovakian issue - and I assume that Hitler didn't think that France and Britain would've really declared war when he invaded Poland - he expected that France and Britain would've acted like they did with Spain and Czechoslovakia.

Discussion, anyone?

Well, if Britain and France had had the balls to do something in the Spanish Civil War, possibly World War Two may not have ever:

A. Gone as far as it did.
B. Possibly wouldn't have happened, for as soon as Hitler reoccupied the Reinland, Britain and France may have moved into Germany and ousted Hitler.

Well, if Britain and France had had the balls to do something in the Spanish Civil War
We let our International volunteers go over. Which was alright of us.

Although I agree, we could have and should have done much more.

Ok, I assume you already know about the Spanish war (fascist dictator Fransisco Franco, supported by Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy) against the Spanish Republic (aided by the international brigades and CCCP).

I think that the Spanish war is very important, because it changed deeply the european checkboard. If Franco had lost, then, assuming that the Axis would have invaded France in 1940, Britain and the Allies would have had already a foot in Europe, so there would have been no D-Day, at least as we known have.

By allowing Franco to take over Spain, France and Britain showed weakness, and the Nazis exploited that with the Sudeten-Czechoslovakian issue - and I assume that Hitler didn't think that France and Britain would've really declared war when he invaded Poland - he expected that France and Britain would've acted like they did with Spain and Czechoslovakia.

Discussion, anyone?

I agree, Franco's victory ensured that there would be no allied invasion from the South after Germany conquered France.

The Spanish Civil War was one of those wars where there were no clear-cut "good guys" or "bad guys." Unspeakable acts of brutality were rampant on both sides. True, in all wars every side commits atrocities, but usually the number of soldiers who do so are a relatively small minority. Not so here. Almost without exception, virtually everyone fought with the ferocity and barbarity of a rabid dog.

We let our International volunteers go over. Which was alright of us.

Although I agree, we could have and should have done much more.

Granted, I mean no disrespect to France or Britain. They did what they thought was right, and that was to stay the hell out of other countries affairs. Their people were tired of War, and I'm sure wouldn't have wanted to fight that one.


So I understand why they didn't, just with the benefit of hindsight, wishing they did.

Ok, I assume you already know about the Spanish war (fascist dictator Fransisco Franco, supported by Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy) against the Spanish Republic (aided by the international brigades and CCCP).

I think that the Spanish war is very important, because it changed deeply the european checkboard. If Franco had lost, then, assuming that the Axis would have invaded France in 1940, Britain and the Allies would have had already a foot in Europe, so there would have been no D-Day, at least as we known have.

By allowing Franco to take over Spain, France and Britain showed weakness, and the Nazis exploited that with the Sudeten-Czechoslovakian issue - and I assume that Hitler didn't think that France and Britain would've really declared war when he invaded Poland - he expected that France and Britain would've acted like they did with Spain and Czechoslovakia.

Discussion, anyone?

Well, you seem to have covered it nicely. I'm not sure how easy invading France would have been over the Pyrenees, though I imagine it could have been done. Naval bases in northern Spain would have been very useful to the Allies, assuming the Germans didn't bomb them to pieces after invading France.

I think that by September, 1939, Hitler really didn't care if Britain and France declared war on him when he invaded Poland, and his attitude was borne out by their sitting idle from September '39 until May '40, when the Germans pounced on them. It would have been a whole 'nother ballgame had they invaded Germany promptly, but they didn't.

Almost without exception, virtually everyone fought with the ferocity and barbarity of a rabid dog.

Typical of civil wars.

added: and speaking of barbarity, WW2. It was the first war in modern times to kill more civilians than soldiers.

Typical of civil wars.

Yes. I wish both sides had lost. :p

If Franco had lost, then, assuming that the Axis would have invaded France in 1940, Britain and the Allies would have had already a foot in Europe.

Not necessarily. If the Republicans had won the civil war, nobody knows for sure how that society would have evolved.

From the British and French perspective, it would have been a huge gamble to support the various factions fighting Franco. Upon victory, it might have collapsed into another civil war between the anarchists/marxists/parliamentary republicans - in which case, they would have felt some ideological obligation to help out the liberal-democrat forces, turning the conflict into a long term and incredibly costly prospect which they could ill afford (since the impact of the great depression was still being felt). Perhaps even worse, the pro-USSR factions might have come to prominence, and then there is the problem of a Soviet ally in Western Europe. However, what if one of the myriad anti-Soviet leftist factions came to prominence? Then they're faced with the spread of a new revolutionary fervor across Europe (particularly into an already bitterly divided France) which something the allies certainly didn't want either.

From their perspective, they probably recognised that they lost either way, but thought that they lost less through inaction.

But if the 'republicans' won, it could've turned a lot of ways, there was quite a fierce struggle going on, generally between the Stalinists (aided by Russia) and the anarchists/trotskyites.
So it could have turned into a civil war of the authoritarian versus the anti-authoritarian left.

Looking at the poll, I don't see why America would have intervened. As can be seen from their attitude when France and Britain had declared war on Germany, the Americans attitude was one of letting it be, unless it seriously affected them. Britain and France probably should have done more than they did, but then they weren't to know what it would mean for Europe a few years down the line.

does the republic in the poll also refer to the CNT/FAI?
and yes, why would the US intervene?

To clarify my position in regard to the poll, I would have strongly supported certain factions within the republic, but I can certainly see why the Western democracies chose not to intervene. Certainly, at the most extreme level of response, another war was not in their interest and a repeat of the first world war was still seen as avoidable at this point. So I can't really say that they "should" have intervened in one way, even though the results might have been favourable in terms of my political beliefs.

does the republic in the poll also refer to the CNT/FAI?

I assumed so, since they were fighting together.

I assumed so, since they were fighting together.

but didn't they also fight between eachother? stalinists against CNT for instance and also the fear of the governement that if they would win there could be a second civil war, between the anarchists, stalinists and governement forces.

but didn't they also fight between eachother? stalinists against CNT for instance and also the fear of the governement that if they would win there could be a second civil war, between the anarchists, stalinists and governement forces.

I'm not too sure about any significant direct fighting between the anarchists and pro-soviets, to be honest, although there probably was some. Certainly however there was also enough cooperation to form a relatively coherent fighting force that managed to put up a struggle for a couple of years.

For your latter point, see my earlier post here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11974512&postcount=10

Communists or fascists, what a choice. I'd take neither, and hope that they'd kill each other off.

Communists or fascists, what a choice. I'd take neither, and hope that they'd kill each other off.

There were pro-liberal elements within the Republicans (what was left of the former parliamentary republican government and its supporters).

I'm not too sure about any significant direct fighting between the anarchists and pro-soviets, to be honest, although there probably was some. Certainly however there was also enough cooperation to form a relatively coherent fighting force that managed to put up a struggle for a couple of years.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#Counter-revolution

i'm not entirely sure if it's completly unbiased, but it seems that there was some repression of the anarchists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#Counter-revolution

i'm not entirely sure if it's completly unbiased, but it seems that there was some repression of the anarchists.

Not surprising, really. I wonder if there was any fighting between Trotskyist factions like the POUM against the CNT and other anarchist groups, though, since they were both in opposition to the pro-Soviet communist party. I can vaguely recall reading something a while back.

I should really read up on it all more now that I have the time again.

There were pro-liberal elements within the Republicans (what was left of the former parliamentary republican government and its supporters).

All two of them, and the Stalinists, their own miserable "allies" went out of their way to kill them as well.

Not surprising, really. I wonder if there was any fighting between Trotskyist factions like the POUM against the CNT and other anarchist groups, though, since they were both in opposition to the pro-Soviet communist party. I can vaguely recall reading something a while back.

I should really read up on it all more now that I have the time again.

it's a very interesting conflict due to all the different parties involved. if i ever find the time (time isn't really an issue, its more about effort etc.) i should really read something about it too.

All two of them, and the Stalinists, their own miserable "allies" went out of their way to kill them as well.

Yeah, well, the Stalinists were busy trying to kill anyone and everyone that didn't tow their line - didn't matter if they were liberals or communists.


it's a very interesting conflict due to all the different parties involved. if i ever find the time (time isn't really an issue, its more about effort etc.) i should really read something about it too.

Yeah, definitely. I started reading Orwell's Homage to Catalonia a while ago (an account of his service with the International Brigades), but only got a little way into it since I was too busy with university. But now that that's over, I should pick it up again (Heh, I have a huge stack of books sitting here waiting to be read that i've bought over the course of a year or two but never had time for :p). Although now is when that whole effort thing becomes a problem...

Not surprising, really. I wonder if there was any fighting between Trotskyist factions like the POUM against the CNT and other anarchist groups, though, since they were both in opposition to the pro-Soviet communist party. I can vaguely recall reading something a while back.

I should really read up on it all more now that I have the time again.

I recommend "Spanish Civil War" by Antony Beevor and "Lessons Of The Spanish Revolution" by Vernon Richards.

If the UK and France intervened directly, Germany would probably bomb them, and thus start WWII three years earlier.

The USSR should have helped out more, but not intervene directly. The worst that could happen would be a Soviet Spanish Republic, which would certainly ally with the USSR and thus Britain in WWII.

For the Republic against Basque oppression. Remember Guernica!

If the UK and France intervened directly, Germany would probably bomb them, and thus start WWII three years earlier.

The USSR should have helped out more, but not intervene directly. The worst that could happen would be a Soviet Spanish Republic, which would certainly ally with the USSR and thus Britain in WWII.

Germany wasn't really ready for fighting during the beginning of the war. so id doubt they were ready 3 years earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#Counter-revolution

i'm not entirely sure if it's completly unbiased, but it seems that there was some repression of the anarchists.It's for this reason that I would've liked to have seen less Soviet involvement in the war as opposed to more. I think there would have been more cooperation amongst the anti-Franco forces if this was the case.

I recommend "Spanish Civil War" by Antony Beevor and "Lessons Of The Spanish Revolution" by Vernon Richards.

i recommend "spanish bombs" by the clash

If the Republican forces had won...I'll assume the war ended in 1939 with a Republican government in Spain and Franco tried, convicted of treason, and executed in a matter of...well, a couple of years. Not quick enough.

Hitler left Spain alone because his guy won. If Spain had gone to the other guys, rest assured that the Nazis would have marched into Madrid the same way they marched into Paris, and some of the Spanish would have been on their side, so the already-disgraced Franco would be reinstated as the ruler of Spain. I'll say, for argument's sake, that a Vichy-esque government is set up in, say, Barcelona, and it's one of many governments that is toppled by the Allies during the liberation of Europe. Therefore, Spain becomes a functioning democracy 30 years sooner.

Now granted, the Republican forces needed more help than they were getting. If Roosevelt had a Lend-Lease deal with the Spanish, they could have pulled it off. And the Germans weren't about to mess with the Americans just yet. In addition, with the occupation of Spain, the Nazis might have overextended themselves even further and collapsed sooner, thus leading to a quicker end to the war. The Cold War would have been just as long, but this war would have been over a few weeks sooner. Hopefully with fewer Holocaust victims and one less Picasso painting.

Go Franco.

I apologise, but I'm going to have to pedant all over the OP.

1) In English, the phrase 'Spanish War' more usually refers to the war that took place in 1898 between the United States of American and the Spanish Empire. The term 'Spanish Civil War' is used to denote the civil conflict during the 1930's.

2) More importantly, CCCP is not an appropriate way to reference the Soviet Union when writing in English, or any language that uses the Latin script. That acronym is cyrillic, the 'С' is the cyrillic symbol for the short 's' sound, whereas the 'Р' corresponds with the 'r' sound, standing in full for Soyuz Sovyetska Sotsiyalistya Republika. If you want to show off your knowledge of Russia (although I don't know why you would, the country is nothing but the world's largest turd) then say SSSR, as there is no such thing as the Coyuz Covyetska Cotsiyalistya Pepublika.

Visca POUM! Fascistas maricones!
Couldn't resist it.

It would be cool to see how it would have worked out if anarchist's won.

It would be cool to see how it would have worked out if anarchist's won.

nicely...until it freaked out lots of people in england and france enough that they decided fascists were right about the 'red menace' and put on silly arm bands and black shirts. unless the revolution kept expanding...

nicely...until it freaked out lots of people in england and france enough that they decided fascists were right about the 'red menace' and put on silly arm bands and black shirts. unless the revolution kept expanding...

Wouldn't have happened, someone was going to crush them sooner or later. It just happened that the anti-fascist front opened first. Remember that the there were already professional counter-revolutionaries from Russia rubbing their hands in glee.

I apologise, but I'm going to have to pedant all over the OP.

1) In English, the phrase 'Spanish War' more usually refers to the war that took place in 1898 between the United States of American and the Spanish Empire. The term 'Spanish Civil War' is used to denote the civil conflict during the 1930's.

2) More importantly, CCCP is not an appropriate way to reference the Soviet Union when writing in English, or any language that uses the Latin script. That acronym is cyrillic, the 'С' is the cyrillic symbol for the short 's' sound, whereas the 'Р' corresponds with the 'r' sound, standing in full for Soyuz Sovyetska Sotsiyalistya Republika. If you want to show off your knowledge of Russia (although I don't know why you would, the country is nothing but the world's largest turd) then say SSSR, as there is no such thing as the Coyuz Covyetska Cotsiyalistya Pepublika.
Feel better now?

Actually, it's "Spanish-American War," not "Spanish War." And I already gave Risottia the business about "CCCP". We agreed to allow the little quirk. :p

Feel better now?

Yeah, a bit.

Actually, it's "Spanish-American War," not "Spanish War." And I already gave Risottia the business about "CCCP". We agreed to allow the little quirk. :p

Hmm... I'm not even American and I think of Spanish War as the Spanish-American War. Although I suppose that would be completely different to a French or Italian person. As for allowing 'CCCP', lets just say you are more tolerant than I.

I'm for the republic. I had a great great uncle who fought in the International Brigade. I've discovered that mentioning this to my spanish teachers seems to have a positive impact on my grades.:D