NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1945263,00.html

I'm not sure about this. For any Americans or other non-British Aliens, he (Nick Griffin) is the head of what amounts to the British Nazi Party.

Should he be allowed to preach the shite that he does? Should he be arrested for it? How far do you let freedom of speech go?

Personally I don't like the way we are going (in the UK) with the whole Religious Hatred Bill: how can you claim religion, unlike other sectors of society, is exempt from all criticism? As such you have to allow the racist bastards to say what they have to say...

What do people think?

No, they shouldn't be in jail.

They have the right to say their hateful shit, that way everyone else has the right to say what they want to as well. That's the way freedom of speech works. Its for speech you don't like, not for speech you like.

Freedom of Speech. If you don't like it, there are plenty of countries without it that you can move to.

Personally I don't like the way we are going (in the UK) with the whole Religious Hatred Bill: how can you claim religion, unlike other sectors of society, is exempt from all criticism?

The only people who are claiming that is those who fundamentally misunderstand the law. If it was the case that they were exempt from criticism, then it would be the Religious Criticism Bill. As it stands, it is illegal to incite violence against members of religious organisations because you dislike those organisations.

Freedom of speech applies to everyone, even fascist, racist dickheads like Griffin.

Freedom of Speech. If you don't like it, there are plenty of countries without it that you can move to.

See that's not the point for me. So these guys are saying 'muslims are evil', 'islam is a religion of hate': Does that mean that a muslim should just sit back and take it? They openly call black British people niggers and say on their websites that the world is being run by a 'Jewish/Zionist conspirocy' (sic).

Should Muslims, Jews and blacks just leave the country or should they speak out against it? Obviously they should speak out - but sometimes words only do so much....

Should Muslims, Jews and blacks just leave the country or should they speak out against it? Obviously they should speak out - but sometimes words only do so much....

They can and should speak out against it, but taking action to silence it is censorship, which is a denial of their right to freedom of speech.

The only people who are claiming that is those who fundamentally misunderstand the law. If it was the case that they were exempt from criticism, then it would be the Religious Criticism Bill. As it stands, it is illegal to incite violence against members of religious organisations because you dislike those organisations.

No that's not true. The Bill extends part 3of the Public Order Act 1986 to create a new offence of incitement to religious hatred. If it goes through anyone who publishes or says anything "likely to be heard or seen by any person in whom it is likely to stir up racial or religious hatred" will be committing a criminal offence liable to seven years in prison. Language used only has to be considered as "insulting" to be actionable.

This is a quote from Lord Lester the Lib Dem peer who has spent his entire life campaigning in terms of human rights:

"The new speech crimes are sweepingly broad. They apply to threatening abusive or insulting words, behaviour, written material, recordings or programmes intended or likely to stir up religious hatred. Unlike most other serious offences they require no criminal intent. They apply not only to words spoken in pubic but in private. They cover the electronic media, plays, films, works of fiction, political argument, preaching by priests and clerics, comedians and politicians".

They can and should speak out against it, but taking action to silence it is censorship, which is a denial of their right to freedom of speech.

That's the point. It's the 'leave the country' bit that gets bandied around I hate so much.

See that's not the point for me. So these guys are saying 'muslims are evil', 'islam is a religion of hate': Does that mean that a muslim should just sit back and take it? They openly call black British people niggers and say on their websites that the world is being run by a 'Jewish/Zionist conspirocy' (sic).

Should Muslims, Jews and blacks just leave the country or should they speak out against it? Obviously they should speak out - but sometimes words only do so much....

Stop being silly and grow a thicker skin. Of course they can speak out against it. They have free speech too. If muslims were to commit violent acts against those who accuse them of following a "religion of hate," they'd only be proving the statement correct.

But if someone can be jailed for saying something offensive, you don't have free speech. It's something you either have or don't.

You have a right to free speech, but so does everyone else. Nobody said that it was all going to be peachy and nice. If you can't handle someone saying something offensive, move to a country where they can't. The response to offensive speech is counter-speech, not censorship and violence.

That's the point. It's the 'leave the country' bit that gets bandied around I hate so much.

I hate it too, I pray that the BNP never, ever gets a majority or even a significant minority in your parliament.

I just realized that I don't know whether they do or not, how many seats does the BNP have, if any?

Stop being silly and grow a thicker skin. Of course they can speak out against it. They have free speech too. If muslims were to commit violent acts against those who accuse them of following a "religion of hate," they'd only be proving the statement correct.

But if someone can be jailed for saying something offensive, you don't have free speech. It's something you either have or don't.

You have a right to free speech, but so does everyone else. Nobody said that it was all going to be peachy and nice. If you can't handle someone saying something offensive, move to a country where they can't.

I don't think I am being 'silly'. The problem at the moment is in terms of lines the in the sand. We are talking about people, both within the BNP community and Muslim community who are talking about killing people in semi-public meetings.

I believe in the right to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, right to nudity (lol) etc. But there are public meetings taking place in the Uk where people are talking about killing each other. I disagree with the Bill on the fundamental principle that it would take away freedom of speech. However, I worry about a 17 year old white kid, with no qualifications, who can't get a job, goes along to a public BNP meeting with his mates and starts to think about violently going after Muslims on the basis of the things said.....


Now I'm not sure why I should leave the country because of this but you seem quite set on it....

actually wouldn’t this come under threatening behaviour hence why you can get arrested for ethnic slur (well you had better hope you get arrested before you get your ass kicked)

though to be honest so long as its not threatening anyone in public (lets say you rent out a pub or something) I see no problem with it other than PC culture running around going "you can't say that"

Stop being silly and grow a thicker skin. Of course they can speak out against it. They have free speech too. If muslims were to commit violent acts against those who accuse them of following a "religion of hate," they'd only be proving the statement correct.

But if someone can be jailed for saying something offensive, you don't have free speech. It's something you either have or don't.

You have a right to free speech, but so does everyone else. Nobody said that it was all going to be peachy and nice. If you can't handle someone saying something offensive, move to a country where they can't. The response to offensive speech is counter-speech, not censorship and violence.

That is how Nazism got started in Germany. Free speech.

Glad we have Hate Laws in Canada. These guys most likely be in prison now.

I hate it too, I pray that the BNP never, ever gets a majority or even a significant minority in your parliament.

I just realized that I don't know whether they do or not, how many seats does the BNP have, if any?

The BNP has no seats in national government, thankfully.

They do have 44 seats on a local governmental level: mostly in East London (where the people who may/may not have been about to blow up the planes with gatorade or whatever came from) and in the Midlands where the London bombers came from...says it all really....

Canada has Hate Laws, huh? I wonder what these laws say. I hate that we have Hate Laws. How's that. MUAHAHA. Seriously, though, if someone across from me says that they hate Jews, the idea is spread. You could take that guy/girl and shoot them in a back alley or public courtyard, it matters not. The result is still the same, an idea is spread. You STILL have to counter that idea, if you believe it must be countered. If you shoot people (or jail them) for saying that they hate Jews, then you are hypocritical. You also spread hate yourself, and are no better than any racist. People prosecuted great scientists, believing they were saying horrible things. I'm not saying that the example of Jews fits here, but say an idea came up on day and HATE LAWS went against the idea, but it was a valid one? I mean we could end up with a government that controls speech, then we get the population siding with the damn nazis because they don't want their speech blocked and controled. I mean if you shoot someone who says Jews suck, and look to the child standing beside you and think you're teaching him a valuable lesson, then I guess you should side with the HATE LAWS. However, if you're one of the people who would put the gun down, and argue your point against hate in general to the person who said "Jews suck" then the child just might walk away a better person. Anyone might. HATE LAWS are not the answer, sometimes there is no government answer. (actually, most times the government is not needed, but it sticks its head into places its not wanted) The answer is for the people of the world to stand up against these people of hate. If we're not willing to do THAT simple thing, then the world deserves to be a breeding ground for nazis. It's your world, and there are obviously CHILDREN being taught that hate is good. So speak up, argue out against those people publicly. I'd even suggest facing them one on one. ARGUE against someone who says a black joke in public. Have you ever done that? Or are you the person who MAKES those jokes? You might be for HATE LAWS, but look at yourself first, and you might find that you're the one who's spreading the hate.

Canada has Hate Laws, huh? I wonder what these laws say. I hate that we have Hate Laws. How's that. MUAHAHA. Seriously, though, if someone across from me says that they hate Jews, the idea is spread. You could take that guy/girl and shoot them in a back alley or public courtyard, it matters not. The result is still the same, an idea is spread. You STILL have to counter that idea, if you believe it must be countered. If you shoot people (or jail them) for saying that they hate Jews, then you are hypocritical. You also spread hate yourself, and are no better than any racist. People prosecuted great scientists, believing they were saying horrible things. I'm not saying that the example of Jews fits here, but say an idea came up on day and HATE LAWS went against the idea, but it was a valid one? I mean we could end up with a government that controls speech, then we get the population siding with the damn nazis because they don't want their speech blocked and controled. I mean if you shoot someone who says Jews suck, and look to the child standing beside you and think you're teaching him a valuable lesson, then I guess you should side with the HATE LAWS. However, if you're one of the people who would put the gun down, and argue your point against hate in general to the person who said "Jews suck" then the child just might walk away a better person. Anyone might. HATE LAWS are not the answer, sometimes there is no government answer. (actually, most times the government is not needed, but it sticks its head into places its not wanted) The answer is for the people of the world to stand up against these people of hate. If we're not willing to do THAT simple thing, then the world deserves to be a breeding ground for nazis. It's your world, and there are obviously CHILDREN being taught that hate is good. So speak up, argue out against those people publicly. I'd even suggest facing them one on one. ARGUE against someone who says a black joke in public. Have you ever done that? Or are you the person who MAKES those jokes? You might be for HATE LAWS, but look at yourself first, and you might find that you're the one who's spreading the hate.

Exactly. Freedom of speech is what protects us from these idiots. While they have to defend their positions, in open, rational debate we can counter them (and point and laugh at the cave men).

If you force them underground you give them sort of 'rebel chic'. @This is what they don't want you to know' etc. Then they will start to gain seats in parliment and there won't be a damn thing anyone can do because, what with 'hate speech' laws and ASBOs, you've already given them all the tools with which to silence the critics.

That is how Nazism got started in Germany. Free speech.

Yes. We don't need that bloody free speech. Just let's choose a few best speakers - like the president - and let them issue speechwriting for us. They know better, after all.