NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/
One questionable part of this is that it fails to define "Indoctrination" Which leads many of the complaints made on their website to be little more than "Once a professor expressed a personal view that I didn't agree with."

Another is the sixth clause, which goes 6. Knowledge advances when individual scholars are left free to reach their own conclusions about which methods, facts, and theories have been validated by research. Academic institutions and professional societies formed to advance knowledge within an area of research, maintain the integrity of the research process, and organize the professional lives of related researchers serve as indispensable venues within which scholars circulate research findings and debate their interpretation. To perform these functions adequately, academic institutions and professional societies should maintain a posture of organizational neutrality with respect to the substantive disagreements that divide researchers on questions within, or outside, their fields of inquiry.

Meaning that profs would be expected to be "neutral" on important topics.

How do you guys feel about this?

http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/
One questionable part of this is that it fails to define "Indoctrination" Which leads many of the complaints made on their website to be little more than "Once a professor expressed a personal view that I didn't agree with."

Another is the sixth clause, which goes

Meaning that profs would be expected to be "neutral" on important topics.

How do you guys feel about this?

I have a feeling that it is a frigging over reaction to some perceived indoctrination by collages.

I have never once had a class that brought up current politics at ALL except for my first few generals back in the beginning and they did not take sides just discussed it (that was the topic of the class)

I think professors who veer off topic should be in trouble, not for "indoctrination" but for wasting time off the topic of the class. though thats never happened to me after 2 bachelors and 2 masters.

Personally, while so far all my teachers have mentioned current affairs and their own personal political viewpoint, it was more-or-less on topic, and more or less justifiable. I read a couple of cases of real out-and-out discrimination on their website, but many are no more than "OMG they disagree with me this makes me nervous about my grade!"

It's pretty much a chance to bitch when a proffesor doesn't give you a grade that you like.

"What? I got a C?! Obviously it's bias! The professor hates me because I am conservative!"

It's the cries of 'Mod Bias' we get here just in colleges, usually by the same types of people.

I think my favorite prof's have all been ones I disagreed with. If they agree with you, what have you to discuss? What have you to learn from their p.o.v? That, and I like the amount of freedom prof's have in how they teach their classes.

Does anyone else think that this is a load of crap, or is it just me?

I'm not certain how I really feel about this. I took an ethics course a few years ago, and I honestly feel my grade was lowered because I dared to argue my point of view with the professor. He spent a great deal of time badmouthing magnet schools, saying that they took high-performing students from comprehensive schools, were given outrageous amounts of money, and were always full of white students. When I presented my own highschool as an exception to the rule (86% black, 10% white, the remaining 4% "other", the building is virtually condemned, overcrowded, and we were alotted 45% less money than any given comprehensive school in the county -- and we operated on less funding than any private school a quarter of our size! Also, many of our students were dubbed "behaviour problems" because it was not feasible to challenge them in a normal classroom!) he argued that it was impossible, and insisted I was lying just to disrupt class. I brought in data from the board of education, and he dismissed it as "bullshit."

Most of our discussions went on in a similar manner -- he insisted that Walmart(and any such store that allowed us to actually EAT on our limited budgets) was the root of all evil, we shouldn't shop there, and we'd be better off starving because we could (on average) only afford three meals a week from the local grocer.

I completed my papers on time, met or exceeded the requirements, and still received a B in the course. Most of the class received an A, so I found this quite suspicious. After asking around and finding most of his classes got A's, and the few who did "argue" with him received B's, my suspicions were confirmed. The fucker didn't know how to teach or grade, and simply assigned grades based upon students either agreeing with him or silently getting through class and turning in assighments -- he's not teaching ethics anymore.

I'm not certain how I really feel about this. I took an ethics course a few years ago, and I honestly feel my grade was lowered because I dared to argue my point of view with the professor. He spent a great deal of time badmouthing magnet schools, saying that they took high-performing students from comprehensive schools, were given outrageous amounts of money, and were always full of white students. When I presented my own highschool as an exception to the rule (86% black, 10% white, the remaining 4% "other", the building is virtually condemned, overcrowded, and we were alotted 45% less money than any given comprehensive school in the county -- and we operated on less funding than any private school a quarter of our size! Also, many of our students were dubbed "behaviour problems" because it was not feasible to challenge them in a normal classroom!) he argued that it was impossible, and insisted I was lying just to disrupt class. I brought in data from the board of education, and he dismissed it as "bullshit."

Most of our discussions went on in a similar manner -- he insisted that Walmart(and any such store that allowed us to actually EAT on our limited budgets) was the root of all evil, we shouldn't shop there, and we'd be better off starving because we could (on average) only afford three meals a week from the local grocer.

I completed my papers on time, met or exceeded the requirements, and still received a B in the course. Most of the class received an A, so I found this quite suspicious. After asking around and finding most of his classes got A's, and the few who did "argue" with him received B's, my suspicions were confirmed. The fucker didn't know how to teach or grade, and simply assigned grades based upon students either agreeing with him or silently getting through class and turning in assighments -- he's not teaching ethics anymore.This was a collage course? How the hell did most of the class get A's?

This was a collage course? How the hell did most of the class get A's?





Teeeeeeeeennnnnnnnuuuuuurrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee

Teeeeeeeeennnnnnnnuuuuuurrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee

When working with the tenure professors vs the ones that were not in my department they tended to be the biggest dicks not the easy courses. (not all of them by any means we have plenty of awesome professors)

Whiny imbeciles making up silly, stupid nonsense and sullying the bill of rights by association.

People who are upset about those things arent cut out for university education and probably belong somewhere else.

Does anyone else think that this is a load of crap, or is it just me?

Oh, you're not alone. This is beyond crap.

ah, horowitz. a truly monumental jackass.

ah, horowitz. a truly monumental jackass.

In the jackass-the-movie sense, as well.

When this dunce speaks or writes, it is sort of like the guy in the movie wearing a 'fart mask' and throwing up in it.

Tenure professors are assholes who are more interested in their research then their teachings. It's usually, "Read the textbook" and maybe I'll show up for lecture to give a political diatribe.

Tenure professors are assholes who are more interested in their research then their teachings. It's usually, "Read the textbook" and maybe I'll show up for lecture to give a political diatribe.

It says you live in kansas, so I imagine the quality of local faculty lacks somewhat. The midwest is not known as a bastion of academe, &c.

It says you live in kansas, so I imagine the quality of local faculty lacks somewhat. The midwest is not known as a bastion of academe, &c.

I went to school at Michigan State.

Thats nice.

Are there any universities in kansas?

I went to school at Michigan State.

You get out of school what you put in. Maybe it wasn't your professors who were lacking. Based on the quality of your commentary, I'd say that's a distinct possibility.

You guys crack me up. I dissent against the injection of political commentary into lectures and then it's "lets bash Kansas" day. First off, I was born and raised in Minnesota. I go to Michigan State, find college rather unsastifying, not because I'm some sort of mental retard. I moved to Kansas 6 months ago so I could pursue my hobby of storm chasing. I'll someday enroll at Kansas University, a damn fine university, to continue studying meteorology.

If I'm spending a couple hundred dollars a credit, I expect to be lectured on relevant course topics, not the professors' personal political grievances.

You guys crack me up. I dissent against the injection of political commentary into lectures and then it's "lets bash Kansas" day. First off, I was born and raised in Minnesota. I go to Michigan State, find college rather unsastifying, not because I'm some sort of mental retard. I moved to Kansas 6 months ago so I could pursue my hobby of storm chasing. I'll someday enroll at Kansas University, a damn fine university, to continue studying meteorology.

If I'm spending a couple hundred dollars a credit, I expect to be lectured on relevant course topics, not the professors' personal political grievances.

Actually, you called your professors assholes who didn't do anything more than tell you to read the textbook. I work in academia. I say you're full of shit.

Tenure professors are assholes who are more interested in their research then their teachings. It's usually, "Read the textbook" and maybe I'll show up for lecture to give a political diatribe.

I taught with 4 tenured professors as well as took classes from all 4 ... never had that issue

Actually, you called your professors assholes who didn't do anything more than tell you to read the textbook. I work in academia. I say you're full of shit.
I did as well ... and agreed

Actually, you called your professors assholes who didn't do anything more than tell you to read the textbook. I work in academia. I say you're full of shit.

So of course you're going to be offended when I call you all a bunch of pompous pricks. The fact that you label your field as "academia" is funny.

So of course you're going to be offended when I call you all a bunch of pompous pricks. The fact that you label your field as "academia" is funny.
Why is it funny?

So of course you're going to be offended when I call you all a bunch of pompous pricks. The fact that you label your field as "academia" is funny.

Nope. Just pity you in your ignorance.

I think professors who veer off topic should be in trouble, not for "indoctrination" but for wasting time off the topic of the class. though thats never happened to me after 2 bachelors and 2 masters.

Degrees in what fields?

Degrees in what fields?

Computer networking modeling and simulation and Computer information security

Got one BS in each and one masters in each, and a minor in stats (but technicaly network modeling is a "stats" degree so it was like an extra two classes to get a stats minor)

Sure. You *officially* can have your own set of views in college. Just that every paper and assignment you hand in does not aquire a passing grade. Or they go missing (repeatedly when you re-submit it) and the marker smugly says he/she thinks you never sent it in therefore you get zero for it.

In undergraduate-level college, if you want to graduate you gotta just jump through the prescribed hoops and spew out the standard, accepted version.

It's unfair, its hypocritical. Welcome to your introduction to the work place.

Sure. You *officially* can have your own set of views in college. Just that every paper and assignment you hand in does not aquire a passing grade. Or they go missing (repeatedly when you re-submit it) and the marker smugly says he/she thinks you never sent it in therefore you get zero for it.

In undergraduate-level college, if you want to graduate you gotta just jump through the prescribed hoops and spew out the standard, accepted version.

It's unfair, its hypocritical. Welcome to your introduction to the work place.

Never once encountered anything but professionalism as far as homework hand in.

Hell but I never once ran into a teacher discussing things way outside the scope of the class more then the 5 minuets before class begins discussing fly fishing or what we did that weekend with a friendly prof.

Tenure professors are assholes who are more interested in their research then their teachings. It's usually, "Read the textbook" and maybe I'll show up for lecture to give a political diatribe.

That is what we call a stereotype. It exists because there are those who fit it. There are those who care little for teaching, give out colossal lectures for the simple pleasure of hearing themselves talk, and give out the same exam that they did in 1978, meaning you either get an A because last year's class gave you a copy of it or you get an F because you spent the entire quarter getting drunk and forgot to study the bootlegged exam.

There are those who let their TA's do all the work. There are those who are pompous, full-of-themselves intimidators. We've seen them all.

The worst ones are the ones who fail people just because they get their jollies from it. My freshman year, I enrolled in a calculus class that turned out to be taught by this weird person who wouldn't shut up, turned people away for arriving late (thus forcing you to miss the class...and he said that missing twice in the quarter was an automatic F, and I don't think he took medical excuses) and, on the first day of class, he talked glowingly of another class he took where all but three people failed. I dropped the class a week later and found out that he was even worse than I suspected.

Seriously, though. College is full of stereotype professors. Not all of them are anti-teaching assholes. Some of them actually like to make their teaching fun, such as the professor I had who taught an entire class wearing a witch hat and carrying a pitchfork...and showed up a clip from a Monty Python movie to prove a point. But yeah, if your experience was with anti-teaching assholews who made people agree with them, then...well, that sucks.

That is what we call a stereotype. It exists because there are those who fit it. There are those who care little for teaching, give out colossal lectures for the simple pleasure of hearing themselves talk, and give out the same exam that they did in 1978, meaning you either get an A because last year's class gave you a copy of it or you get an F because you spent the entire quarter getting drunk and forgot to study the bootlegged exam.

There are those who let their TA's do all the work. There are those who are pompous, full-of-themselves intimidators. We've seen them all.

The worst ones are the ones who fail people just because they get their jollies from it. My freshman year, I enrolled in a calculus class that turned out to be taught by this weird person who wouldn't shut up, turned people away for arriving late (thus forcing you to miss the class...and he said that missing twice in the quarter was an automatic F, and I don't think he took medical excuses) and, on the first day of class, he talked glowingly of another class he took where all but three people failed. I dropped the class a week later and found out that he was even worse than I suspected.

Seriously, though. College is full of stereotype professors. Not all of them are anti-teaching assholes. Some of them actually like to make their teaching fun, such as the professor I had who taught an entire class wearing a witch hat and carrying a pitchfork...and showed up a clip from a Monty Python movie to prove a point. But yeah, if your experience was with anti-teaching assholews who made people agree with them, then...well, that sucks.
Well said ... of course I have ran across jerk professors (thankfully none that were a jerk in response to political views) but I hardly blame their being a jerk on tenure and the university is hardly full of them.

Well said ... of course I have ran across jerk professors (thankfully none that were a jerk in response to political views) but I hardly blame their being a jerk on tenure and the university is hardly full of them.
That's the key. Those professors are few and far between. There's a much larger percentage of bitchy, self-important, entitled-feeling students than there are professors in that category.

That's the key. Those professors are few and far between. There's a much larger percentage of bitchy, self-important, entitled-feeling students than there are professors in that category.

No shit ... spoiled little kids or stuck up high school A students that figure college should be as much of a breeze as highschool was to them

Guess what it is a different learning style, if you cant adapt you die simple as that

No shit ... spoiled little kids or stuck up high school A students that figure college should be as much of a breeze as highschool was to them

Guess what it is a different learning style, if you cant adapt you die simple as that

My personal favorites are the kids who send me emails on the weekend and then dare to get bitchy when I don't answer it within an hour. You think their papers don't get scrutinized a little more closely?

My personal favorites are the kids who send me emails on the weekend and then dare to get bitchy when I don't answer it within an hour. You think their papers don't get scrutinized a little more closely?

Yeah the highschool A students (if you could not tell by the last post) are my pet peve. Thankfully when I taught a few classes they were all upper level so most of them were weeded out, but every once and a while I was forced to teach an intro course.

You do C grade work you deserve the C grade, ya cant just walk on through the course, I DO expect you to learn something about computers before you leave.

Well said ... of course I have ran across jerk professors (thankfully none that were a jerk in response to political views) but I hardly blame their being a jerk on tenure and the university is hardly full of them.

True, althought their ability to get away with being a jerk is due in part to tenure, as well as the university's general willingness to fight for them tooth-and-nail. After all, they gave the person tenure; are they really expected to go back on it and say, "We fucked up; we were wrong to give that guy tenure."

True, althought their ability to get away with being a jerk is due in part to tenure, as well as the university's general willingness to fight for them tooth-and-nail. After all, they gave the person tenure; are they really expected to go back on it and say, "We fucked up; we were wrong to give that guy tenure."

True but sometimes they have legitimate reasoning, I had an absolutely awesome but absolutely tough graduate level stats professor that got nothing but complains cause he would not let people just walk through the course

IT was a fucking 400 level course (that is the top level under grad level at my univ) their requests on him were un reasonable completely. Yet if he had not had tenure he would not have had the backup to make these kids learn. We see this a lot in the "Hard" courses that students from the USA seem to do so badly at (Math and Stats are the worst, with some science but not as bad)
Its depressing

Rather then wanting a challenging helpful available professor you want an easier course.

While there needs to be protection from unfair marking, I think it is unreasonable say that professor have to be completely neutral. Of course, if you are in a computer science class, you don't need have the professor rambling on about the war or Bush during class (though there are other issues of heated debate other than current events in all fields). But I have both my BA and MA in politics and it is really near impossible, from how I see it, to be completely neutral. I never had a problem with the professors I had marking me down because they disagreed with me. In fact, I think that it was one that was politically the furthest from me that gave me the best mark of my MA other than my dissertation. If you argue your view well enough, most professors will give you the mark you deserve. Though I have overheard a couple of people brag that they mark someone do because they were 'too right-wing,' but those are few and far between and usually have a bad enough reputation that you know to avoid signing up for their classes. Eventually, the university gets the hint and the person never gets to move up or the professor goes elsewhere because of annoyance of being passed over for promotion repeatedly.

This was a collage course? How the hell did most of the class get A's?

Freshman-level course at a liberal arts college, and most of us were honors students, so a 2-page essay is NOTHING to us.

This was a collage course?

Collage, Murals, and Pop Art 101?

I think the majority of my lecturers take the view that it is impossible to be completely bias free. Therefore they may as well lecture on what they enjoy talking about on a subject, admit their bias, and give you some books and articles to read. They do it this way because they think that they would not lecture so well on the bits they're less interested in. So they encourage you to reading outside of the course and bring up any questionswith your subject tutor/friends/people in general/whatever.

I'm cool with this.