NationStates Jolt Archive

I suddenly realised last night that Christianity is clearly not a monotheism, and not because of the Holy Trinity. The three Gods that have the power to influence each other in the Christian school of thought are:

1. Iehovah (all incarnations)
2. Lucifer
3. Man

For mere servants of God, Lucifer and human beings seem to have a lot of power and influence over Iehovah, in fact, power at a personal level (conversations, prayer).

Have other people noticed this? :)

Personally, I think Christianity is tri-theistic because of the trinity. Now don't go bashing me saying "OMG! you know nothing about it!" because I was a Christian for my whole [short] life.

I suddenly realised last night that Christianity is clearly not a monotheism, and not because of the Holy Trinity. The three Gods that have the power to influence each other in the Christian school of thought are:

1. Iehovah (all incarnations)
2. Lucifer
3. Man

For mere servants of God, Lucifer and human beings seem to have a lot of power and influence over Iehovah, in fact, power at a personal level (conversations, prayer).

Have other people noticed this? :)

You're confused about God's (Jehovah's) relationship with His creatures.

Personally, I think Christianity is tri-theistic because of the trinity. Now don't go bashing me saying "OMG! you know nothing about it!" because I was a Christian for my whole [short] life.

Which is why Christianity is flawed. Worship should be to Allah and Allah alone, not to Jesus(pbuh) as well.

Personally, I think Christianity is tri-theistic because of the trinity. Now don't go bashing me saying "OMG! you know nothing about it!" because I was a Christian for my whole [short] life.

You know nothing about it! :p

Actually, the Trinity is one God, therefore it is by definition monotheistic. The Godhead is made of three distinct persons, but it is still one, whole, inseparable God.

Personally, I think Christianity is tri-theistic because of the trinity. Now don't go bashing me saying "OMG! you know nothing about it!" because I was a Christian for my whole [short] life.

But don't you think the idea of Iehovah having a wager with Lucifer over Job, and Abraham's direct conversation with God... there seems to be a disproportionate God-like powers.

When people pray for stuff, tangible or otherwise, they are trying to influence Iehovah, which is exercising power (albeit in the name of humility).

If the Divine Plan is deterministic there is no point in praying.

Hmm... but at the same time, God is clearly the Sovereign in this situation. His decision is the ultimate deciding factor in all of the Universe's affairs.

I was a Christian for my whole [short] life.

Strange choice of tense...

Which is why Christianity is flawed. Worship should be to Allah and Allah alone, not to Jesus(pbuh) as well.

Of course from a secular point of view, it would make sense that people would see Jesus as God. There wasn't a prophet for how many years before Jesus came?

Strange choice of tense...

I was a Christian for my whole [short] life up until a couple of weeks ago. I see where I made the mistake.

Here is a Reformed Christian view on the Trinity:

http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity

Hmm... but at the same time, God is clearly the Sovereign in this situation. His decision is the ultimate deciding factor in all of the Universe's affairs.



Strange choice of tense...

Maybe... maybe not.

If Iehovah is in fact consultative than his initial plan may be modified when conversing with either Lucifer or Man. If he is not amenable to change then billions of Christians have been wasting their time for two millenia by praying.

In fact nobody knows if Iehovah's decision is ultimate or not. It has only been assumed.

You know nothing about it! :p

Actually, the Trinity is one God, therefore it is by definition monotheistic. The Godhead is made of three distinct persons, but it is still one, whole, inseparable God.

If I told you that "My mother, myself, and my brother are one person" but yet I also state "we are 3 different entities that make up this one person", would you believe me? If I told you that "George W. Bush if Ronald Reagan incarnate", even though he was born while Ronald Reagan was alive, would you believe me? They could easily be lying to you.

It makes no sense that 3 entities are 1 person. And don't give me that "apple" story, that is too easy to tear apart.

You're confused about God's (Jehovah's) relationship with His creatures.

You are not impressed at how powerful his "creatures" are?

Why would Iehovah have a wager with Lucifer to mess up Job's life?

He could have said "Sod off, Lucifer!" and Lucifer as a humble servant would necessarily comply.

But he didn't.

You might say "Zeeksla, you are not God and thus should not be arrogant to assume what he could have said."

But what makes you or another Christian an authority on God then?

If I told you that "My mother, myself, and my brother are one person" but yet I also state "we are 3 different entities that make up this one person", would you believe me? If I told you that "George W. Bush if Ronald Reagan incarnate", even though he was born while Ronald Reagan was alive, would you believe me? They could easily be lying to you.

It makes no sense that 3 entities are 1 person. And don't give me that "apple" story, that is too easy to tear apart.

What "apple" story? If it's anything like the "water" story, it's wrong, so I wouldn't give it to you anyway. People are so concerned with making it understandable, that they destroy it.

The problem with your examples is that you are talking about temporal creatures. I'm talking about the eternal Creator. I don't claim to understand how it can be. I do not claim that it is not confusing. But I do know that the Bible teaches it.

Here is a Reformed Christian view on the Trinity:

http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity

1* There is one and only one God.
2* The one God eternally exists in three distinct persons.
3 * The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
4 * The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, etc.

1) I agree that there is one God.

2) However, 3 people cannot be 1 person, even if they are "distinct"

3 and 4) You can't have 3 gods and claim to be monotheistic. God is not like the Chimera (you could've used this as an attack on my argument, but Jesus came down to Earth while the Holy Spirit and the Father didn't)

I am wife, mother, and daughter...three in one. As a human, I cannot separate these parts of my self, but God can.

The problem with your examples is that you are talking about temporal creatures. I'm talking about the eternal Creator.

God isn't out of Logic.

I don't claim to understand how it can be. I do not claim that it is not confusing. But I do know that the Bible teaches it.

Why would God want to confuse His people? Shouldn't He just make it abundantly clear to them? And, please show me where the Bible teaches it.

You are not impressed at how powerful his "creatures" are?

Why would Iehovah have a wager with Lucifer to mess up Job's life?

He could have said "Sod off, Lucifer!" and Lucifer as a humble servant would necessarily comply.

But he didn't.

You might say "Zeeksla, you are not God and thus should not be arrogant to assume what he could have said."

But what makes you or another Christian an authority on God then?

God didn't have to tell Lucifer "yes" but does that mean that He was unable to say "no"?

When you approach me with Bible verses supporting your most blasphemous theory (for you are setting you and everyone else up as gods, and that is blasphemy) I will have something to discuss. Until then, I can only say that you are not keeping with Scripture. Show me your supporting Scripture and one of us can clear up the other's misunderstandings.

I am wife, mother, and daughter...three in one. As a human, I cannot separate these parts of my self, but God can.

The fact that you are those 3 things doesn't mean that you are 3 "distinct persons". That really means that 3 things can describe you.

I am wife, mother, and daughter...three in one. As a human, I cannot separate these parts of my self, but God can.

You assume that there are no people who can separate these roles.

Why are we playing word games? :confused:

1) I agree that there is one God.

Good. I'm glad.

2) However, 3 people cannot be 1 person, even if they are "distinct"

That is not what I said. You're correct, that makes no sense. How can 3 people be one person? They can't. But that's not the Trinity. The Trinity is three Persons in one God.

3 and 4) You can't have 3 gods and claim to be monotheistic. God is not like the Chimera (you could've used this as an attack on my argument, but Jesus came down to Earth while the Holy Spirit and the Father didn't)

I don't claim to have three God's. Did you read the article? I can explain it to you, but it will do a much better job than I will.

The fact that you are those 3 things doesn't mean that you are 3 "distinct persons". That really means that 3 things can describe you.


No, In those three roles I am completely different in how I am. The love I show my husband can never be confused with the love I show my children

No, In those three roles I am completely different in how I am. The love I show my husband can never be confused with the love I show my children

God (in Islam) is also completely different in His different roles. In one role, He is blessing the believers, while in the other He is cursing the non-believers. It shows that you can do 2 things at once, but it doesn't mean that you are "3 distinct persons".

The fact that you are those 3 things doesn't mean that you are 3 "distinct persons". That really means that 3 things can describe you.

You assume that there are no people who can separate these roles.

Why are we playing word games? :confused:

Yes, we can be different in our roles but physically I can not be three people. God does have that ability and still be one God. I don't mean to play word games with you. Honest

God didn't have to tell Lucifer "yes" but does that mean that He was unable to say "no"?

When you approach me with Bible verses supporting your most blasphemous theory (for you are setting you and everyone else up as gods, and that is blasphemy) I will have something to discuss. Until then, I can only say that you are not keeping with Scripture. Show me your supporting Scripture and one of us can clear up the other's misunderstandings.

Actually I'm setting you up as God, my friend ;)

For that's what you do everytime you pray. Deep inside you know it to be true.

Yes, we can be different in our roles but physically I can not be three people. God does have that ability and still be one God. I don't mean to play word games with you. Honest

Since you have had no experience that anyone can be three people, how can you or anyone assume that God can be three people?

That is not what I said. You're correct, that makes no sense. How can 3 people be one person? They can't. But that's not the Trinity. The Trinity is three Persons in one God.

Christianity believes that there is 1 God. In the Bible, it mentions that God is one, all of that stuff. But, if you were to have 3 people in 1, it would be impossible to state such a thing.

3 people in 1 would mean that God is the Chimera, and since He's not, it's impossible.



I don't claim to have three God's. Did you read the article? I can explain it to you, but it will do a much better job than I will.

Didn't need to. I was a Christian up until a couple of weeks ago. Before I converted to Islam, I was a Christian for my whole life.

God isn't out of Logic.

Why would God want to confuse His people? Shouldn't He just make it abundantly clear to them? And, please show me where the Bible teaches it.

No, God is Logic (in a sense).

God doesn't want to confuse us. But there are some things beyond our comprehension. How can the finite understand the infinite? If they could, I should worry, because then one is no longer: the finite must be infinite or the infinite must be finite. God must be Man or Man must be God. And we see the folly in that.

Where does the Bible teach it? Let's start at the beginning:

Genesis 1:26
"Then God [not the Gods] said, "Let us [not me] make man in our [not my] image, after our likeness...."

Majestic plural, you say? Maybe.

Throughout the Old Testament, God is referred to as Elohim in the original Hebrew. El is the singular meaning God, and Elohim is the plural. Why? God is at pains to make it known that He is one. Majestic plural again, you say? Possibly.

Matthew 3:16:
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;..."

The presence of all three Persons at one time in one place. But God is one, or else the Old Testament is false.

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

The Disciples are told to baptize in the name of all three, by Jesus himself. He is putting himself on the same level as God the Father and He is doing the same for the Holy Spirit. Also, to note: He says the name, not names.

2 Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Another istance where they are all put on the same level.

So, now we have the immutable, infallible God with three Persons. But they are one: Jesus said "He who has seen me has looked upon the Father" and in another place the He and "the Father are one."

Yes, we can be different in our roles but physically I can not be three people. God does have that ability and still be one God. I don't mean to play word games with you. Honest

Yes, you cannot be physically 3 people. The argument you brought up was just defining your characteristics, not that your 3 people.

Yes, God can be Loving, Vengeful, and Fair. But that doesn't make Him 3 people, it just means that He has 3 characteristics.

Since you have had no experience that anyone can be three people, how can you or anyone assume that God can be three people?

This is a question of faith, my friend. I believe the Bible. I don't get the impression that you do so it would be impossible to prove this to you. But on a pyhsical nature, consider water in its liquid state, frozen state and gaseous state as steam, One element three states.

No, God is Logic (in a sense).

God doesn't want to confuse us. But there are some things beyond our comprehension. How can the finite understand the infinite? If they could, I should worry, because then one is no longer: the finite must be infinite or the infinite must be finite. God must be Man or Man must be God. And we see the folly in that.

Where does the Bible teach it? Let's start at the beginning:

Genesis 1:26
"Then God [not the Gods] said, "Let us [not me] make man in our [not my] image, after our likeness...."

Majestic plural, you say? Maybe.

Throughout the Old Testament, God is referred to as Elohim in the original Hebrew. El is the singular meaning God, and Elohim is the plural. Why? God is at pains to make it known that He is one. Majestic plural again, you say? Possibly.

Matthew 3:16:
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;..."

The presence of all three Persons at one time in one place. But God is one, or else the Old Testament is false.

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

The Disciples are told to baptize in the name of all three, by Jesus himself. He is putting himself on the same level as God the Father and He is doing the same for the Holy Spirit. Also, to note: He says the name, not names.

2 Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Another istance where they are all put on the same level.

So, now we have the immutable, infallible God with three Persons. But they are one: Jesus said "He who has seen me has looked upon the Father" and in another place the He and "the Father are one."

You can call it one God = three Persons.

You can also call it an "inconsistency"

*makes quotation mark with fingers*

This is a question of faith, my friend. I believe the Bible. I don't get the impression that you do so it would be impossible to prove this to you. But on a pyhsical nature, consider water in its liquid state, frozen state and gaseous state as steam, One element three states.

[/word games]

Actually I'm setting you up as God, my friend ;)

And I want no part of it.

For that's what you do everytime you pray.

I pray and petition because I am commanded to do so, and God is not required to grant any request I make.

Also: Romans 8:26,27
"Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the [Holy] Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches the hearts knows what it is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the siants according to the will of God."

Deep inside you know it to be true.

Search your feelings, Luke.

Nnnnnnnooooooooooooo!

Did "God the son" exist before Jesus desended to earth? I am confused, because if not, the concept of the "holy trinity" makes little to no sense...

And I want no part of it.



I pray and petition because I am commanded to do so, and God is not required to grant any request I make.

Also: Romans 8:26,27
"Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the [Holy] Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches the hearts knows what it is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the siants according to the will of God."



Search your feelings, Luke.

Nnnnnnnooooooooooooo!

*hands out a cookie*

You're not willing to be a god even with a small "g"? How can you ever get laid then? ;)

Christianity believes that there is 1 God. In the Bible, it mentions that God is one, all of that stuff. But, if you were to have 3 people in 1, it would be impossible to state such a thing.

3 people in 1 would mean that God is the Chimera, and since He's not, it's impossible.

God is spirit. He does not have bodies melted into each other. Ther Persons are distinct and have distinct roles. There attributes and Their will are one.



Didn't need to. I was a Christian up until a couple of weeks ago. Before I converted to Islam, I was a Christian for my whole life.

I doubt that. By definition, Christians are trinitarian. You may have been a "Christian" but you probably weren't a Christian. If you were, you'll be back. God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand.

You can call it one God = three Persons.

You can also call it an "inconsistency"

*makes quotation mark with fingers*

You can call it "galadahydromorphagalia" if you want. It's the definition which matters.

I find no way to be consistent without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity or declaring the Bible to be fallible and errant.

No, God is Logic (in a sense).

God doesn't want to confuse us. But there are some things beyond our comprehension. How can the finite understand the infinite? If they could, I should worry, because then one is no longer: the finite must be infinite or the infinite must be finite. God must be Man or Man must be God. And we see the folly in that.

What about Jesus?

Where does the Bible teach it? Let's start at the beginning:

Genesis 1:26
"Then God [not the Gods] said, "Let us [not me] make man in our [not my] image, after our likeness...."

The Royal We.

Throughout the Old Testament, God is referred to as Elohim in the original Hebrew. El is the singular meaning God, and Elohim is the plural. Why? God is at pains to make it known that He is one. Majestic plural again, you say? Possibly.

The Royal We.

Matthew 3:16:
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;..."

The presence of all three Persons at one time in one place. But God is one, or else the Old Testament is false.

How does that show that there are 3 persons that make up the Godhead? Jesus was baptized, he went up from the water, Allah sent His "Spirit" down upon Jesus ("Spirit" as in Allah's Glory OR the words of which Jesus is to say, especially considering how Christians don't take the Bible literally)

the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

The Disciples are told to baptize in the name of all three, by Jesus himself. He is putting himself on the same level as God the Father and He is doing the same for the Holy Spirit. Also, to note: He says the name, not names.

This argument is simply solved by stating the Corruption of the Bible.

2 Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Another istance where they are all put on the same level.

Paul contradicts Jesus in many points, and it is possible that he could've been the one who corrupted the Bible. Of course, this is Paul's Christianity. I wouldn't take a man's words to represent God's unless God has specifically told mankind otherwise.

Jesus said "He who has seen me has looked upon the Father"

He could've easily been stating that if you listen to him, you listen to God (as he is a prophet and therefore God speaks through Him).

and in another place the He and "the Father are one."

Can Jesus preach the truth without God teaching Him it? God works so much with Jesus that it is a perfect metaphor to say that they are one.

I doubt that. By definition, Christians are trinitarian. You may have been a "Christian" but you probably weren't a Christian. If you were, you'll be back. God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand.

Whoopie! Word gaming is the new video gaming fad!

"God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand."

How did you know that, Mr. Spokesperson? Perhaps God has other plans?

Did "God the son" exist before Jesus desended to earth? I am confused, because if not, the concept of the "holy trinity" makes little to no sense...

Yes. God the Son is eternal, just like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He became incarnate at a certain point in history and He will return to the physical world at a point in history, but He is, was, and ever shall be along with the rest of the Godhead.

*hands out a cookie*

Thank you.

You're not willing to be a god even with a small "g"?

No.

How can you ever get laid then? ;)

That's looking more doubtful all the time. :(

[/word games]

No I have tried to answer honestly and sincerely.

I doubt that. By definition, Christians are trinitarian. You may have been a "Christian" but you probably weren't a Christian. If you were, you'll be back. God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand.

What does "trinitarian" mean?
Would you care to explain the parts after that?

You can call it "galadahydromorphagalia" if you want. It's the definition which matters.

I find no way to be consistent without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity or declaring the Bible to be fallible and errant.

Yes by definition "one" cannot be "three". Unless they refer to different characteristics. Or if "one" is also known by the word "three".

Word games oh my

What a wonderful high

Sing a-song, clap a-long

Let the semantics fly :p

God is spirit. He does not have bodies melted into each other. Ther Persons are distinct and have distinct roles. There attributes and Their will are one.

Are you suggesting that 1 member of the Godhead cannot do what the other can? If so, I guess God isn't "All-Powerful" after all.




I doubt that. By definition, Christians are trinitarian. You may have been a "Christian" but you probably weren't a Christian. If you were, you'll be back. God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand.

I was a Trinitarian. And you're again suggesting that God isn't All-Powerful, seeing as how He cannot suffer to have me plucked from His hand.

In the Qur'an, Allah states that those who aren't on the right path will stay on the wrong path because Allah wills it. It seems to me that this says that God is All-Powerful, and not what you said.

No I have tried to answer honestly and sincerely.

*hands out cookie for trying*

No I have tried to answer honestly and sincerely.

Yes, I know. I'm usually not the one to get all religious and say "OMG! I'm praying for you!" but I will make Du'a for you. You seem like one who is seeking the truth, and I'll make an intercession Du'a just for you. :)

What about Jesus?

I was speaking of mere Man. My apologies for the confusion.

The Royal We.

The Royal We.

Possibly, but in light of other verses, I think it is more accurate that they point to the Trinity.

How does that show that there are 3 persons that make up the Godhead? Jesus was baptized, he went up from the water, Allah sent His "Spirit" down upon Jesus ("Spirit" as in Allah's Glory OR the words of which Jesus is to say, especially considering how Christians don't take the Bible literally)

Doubtful. Christians take the Bible quite literally: read it as it was meant to be read. The Gospels were written as history, so read them so. There are those hyper-literalists who are as bad as the modern allegorists.

the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

The Disciples are told to baptize in the name of all three, by Jesus himself. He is putting himself on the same level as God the Father and He is doing the same for the Holy Spirit. Also, to note: He says the name, not names.

This argument is simply solved by stating the Corruption of the Bible.

You asked how the Bible taught Scripture and I told you. Now you want to discredit the source. Fine, but that doesn't change that the source teaches it.

Paul contradicts Jesus in many points, and it is possible that he could've been the one who corrupted the Bible. Of course, this is Paul's Christianity. I wouldn't take a man's words to represent God's unless God has specifically told mankind otherwise.

Where does He contradict Jesus?

He could've easily been stating that if you listen to him, you listen to God (as he is a prophet and therefore God speaks through Him).

No other Prophet (in the Bible) ever said that and it would be blasphemous for Jesus to say so. In fact the crowd tried to stone Him. Did He say "No, no, you misunderstand me. Let me clraify. I meant that...." No He doesn't.

Can Jesus preach the truth without God teaching Him it? God works so much with Jesus that it is a perfect metaphor to say that they are one.

He wouldn't need God to teach Him because He is God.

Whoopie! Word gaming is the new video gaming fad!

"God will not suffer you to be plucked from His hand."

How did you know that, Mr. Spokesperson? Perhaps God has other plans?

God changes His mind? What He tells us through the Prophets and Apostles He doesn't really mean?

Yes, I know. I'm usually not the one to get all religious and say "OMG! I'm praying for you!" but I will make Du'a for you. You seem like one who is seeking the truth, and I'll make an intercession Du'a just for you. :)

you win the thread

*hails cab*

What does "trinitarian" mean?
Would you care to explain the parts after that?

Trinitarian means the belief that God is inseparably three distince Persons.

http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity

As for the parts after, if you are a Christian once, you will be forever. You might stumble and fall away for a time, but God will draw you back. So when someone leaves the Church, s/he was never a Christian to begin with, or s/he will be back.

Icovir: If Allah wills you to stay on the wrong path if you aren't on the right path, then how could anyone convert?

Are you suggesting that 1 member of the Godhead cannot do what the other can? If so, I guess God isn't "All-Powerful" after all.

I was a Trinitarian. And you're again suggesting that God isn't All-Powerful, seeing as how He cannot suffer to have me plucked from His hand.

In the Qur'an, Allah states that those who aren't on the right path will stay on the wrong path because Allah wills it. It seems to me that this says that God is All-Powerful, and not what you said.

No, God is all powerful. God the Father could do what God the Son does, but He chose not to.

If I said "cannot" that was an error of carlessness on my part and I apolgize. I meant will not.

The Bible teaches the same as the Qur'an on this point.

Yes, I know. I'm usually not the one to get all religious and say "OMG! I'm praying for you!" but I will make Du'a for you. You seem like one who is seeking the truth, and I'll make an intercession Du'a just for you. :)

Please don't. Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Light and no man comes to the Father except by me." That is the truth I hold to. Thanks anyway though. We'll meet in heaven someday and then we'll see.....

[QUOTE]Doubtful. Christians take the Bible quite literally: read it as it was meant to be read. The Gospels were written as history, so read them so. There are those hyper-literalists who are as bad as the modern allegorists.

What branch of Christianity are you in? Many churches say: "When God says this, He really means...". That's not taking it literally and/or "picking and choosing".


You asked how the Bible taught Scripture and I told you. Now you want to discredit the source. Fine, but that doesn't change that the source teaches it.

If I asked how the Bible taught the Trinity, and you gave me the old verse: "For there are 3 in Heaven: The Father, The Son, and the Spirit, and they are 1" (or something like that), and I discredit it (stating simply that it was proven incorrect), does that still make it accurate?

You can easily corrupt something to agree with your ideas. The problem with the Bible is that you don't know where man came in to replace God's words.


Where does He contradict Jesus?

Whew. Too many to count. I'll go get some contradictions.


No other Prophet (in the Bible) ever said that and it would be blasphemous for Jesus to say so. In fact the crowd tried to stone Him. Did He say "No, no, you misunderstand me. Let me clraify. I meant that...." No He doesn't.

Really? Prophets don't say the same thing, they just preach the same message. The men didn't want to accept Jesus as a prophet, so they were about to stone him. I think that they knew what he meant.

And also, it wouldn't be blasphemous. He was merely stating that God speaks through him (I.E a "Messenger" of God)

He wouldn't need God to teach Him because He is God.

Easily refutable if the Trinity is proven wrong, eh?

Icovir: If Allah wills you to stay on the wrong path if you aren't on the right path, then how could anyone convert?

Easy, you don't. But then again, who says that Allah wills for all non-believers to stay on the wrong path?

Please don't. Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Light and no man comes to the Father except by me." That is the truth I hold to. Thanks anyway though. We'll meet in heaven someday and then we'll see.....

We will meet in Heaven. In Islam, many will make Intercession (in Heaven) for those with an ounce of good in their heart, and for those who truly wished to follow the truth that are in Hell. The Prophet Muhammad (Sallahu Allahi Wasalaam) will also make Intercession. Then, Allah will take out of Hell those with an ounce of goodness in their hearts and those wishing to follow the truth and He will bring them to Heaven.

What branch of Christianity are you in? Many churches say: "When God says this, He really means...". That's not taking it literally and/or "picking and choosing".

Presbyterian - very Evangelical and very Reformed. I'm also charismatic, but that's of no consequence to this discussion. It depends on what God said. We know from Scripture that God is spirit, but the Bible says that God "stretched forth His hand" Well, spirits don't have bodies, so they don't have hands. It must be speaking metaphorically. That's what is meant by true Presbyterians when we say that we read the Bible literally. The Psalms are written as poetry. There's a lot of symbolism in poetry, so when the psalmist says that "the hills clap their hands for joy," there are no great hands of earth coming up out of the ground.


If I asked how the Bible taught the Trinity, and you gave me the old verse: "For there are 3 in Heaven: The Father, The Son, and the Spirit, and they are 1" (or something like that), and I discredit it (stating simply that it was proven incorrect), does that still make it accurate?

You didn't prove anything. You merely said it was an example of corruption which you assume to be there.

You can easily corrupt something to agree with your ideas.

Yes, you can. And God's truth has been corrupted in the form of many "holy" books. I thank Him that He has preserved one so that we may know the Truth.

The problem with the Bible is that you don't know where man came in to replace God's words.

The same may be said of any book. That does not make it so.

Really? Prophets don't say the same thing, they just preach the same message. The men didn't want to accept Jesus as a prophet, so they were about to stone him. I think that they knew what he meant.

You think? You're a sinful little dust bunny. It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what I think. All that matters in issues of morality or doctrine is the word of God.

Christianity is very much Tri-Theistic, depending on which particular version a person ascribes to.

Catholicism, for instance, seems to imply that the Trinity are indeed one collective entity.

Others believe that they are three separate individuals.

However, Catholicism is very much Thri-Theistic.

Even though they do not hold Mary in exactly the same regard as Jesus, or God, they do, in fact, worship her.

Ergo, they worship God, Jesus, and the "Virgin" Mary.

You didn't prove anything. You merely said it was an example of corruption which you assume to be there.



Yes, you can. And God's truth has been corrupted in the form of many "holy" books. I thank Him that He has preserved one so that we may know the Truth.


The same may be said of any book. That does not make it so.

All of these arguments can be used on the Bible.

You think? You're a sinful little dust bunny. It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what I think. All that matters in issues of morality or doctrine is the word of God.

And that is where Christians lose the battle, unfortunatly. They automatically accept what their churches tell them and don't think for themselves, for if they did they would see how Christianity is incorrect and how the churches are corrupt.

Christianity is very much Tri-Theistic, depending on which particular version a person ascribes to.

Catholicism, for instance, seems to imply that the Trinity are indeed one collective entity.

Others believe that they are three separate individuals.

However, Catholicism is very much Thri-Theistic.

Even though they do not hold Mary in exactly the same regard as Jesus, or God, they do, in fact, worship her.

Ergo, they worship God, Jesus, and the "Virgin" Mary.

I've noticed that, also (about how Catholics worship the Virgin Mary). Heck, they even go as far to say that she was "sinless".

Ivocir:
No man will have an ounce of goodness in their heart as the heart is a wicked and deceitful thing according to scripture. Every religion including Islam depends upon the goodness of man and what he can do. Christianity is the only religion that depends upon the free gift of God for redemption.

And that is where Christians lose the battle, unfortunatly. They automatically accept what their churches tell them and don't think for themselves, for if they did they would see how Christianity is incorrect and how the churches are corrupt.

I never said that the churches (or even the Church) was not corrupt. They are very corrupt. They are full of sinners. In fact, that's all that's in them.

But I have found nothing to convince me that Christianity is incorrect.

And as for blindly following leadership, I have been escorted out of church several times for correcting the minister during the sermon.

Edwardis: You blow me away, my friend. Can I put you on my dossier list for future contact? We have much in common. Gotta go for now.

Thanks to all for the chatter!

Ivocir:
No man will have an ounce of goodness in their heart as the heart is a wicked and deceitful thing according to scripture. Every religion including Islam depends upon the goodness of man and what he can do. Christianity is the only religion that depends upon the free gift of God for redemption.


Islam relies on two things for your salvation: That you accept that there is only one God, and that He is Allah, and that you are good.

The Bible even says this in James. "Faith without works is dead".

[QUOTE]But I have found nothing to convince me that Christianity is incorrect.

You are just too stubborn to look at the facts, my friend.

And as for blindly following leadership, I have been escorted out of church several times for correcting the minister during the sermon.

You can blindly follow someone even if you don't agree on some points.

Islam relies on two things for your salvation: That you accept that there is only one God, and that He is Allah, and that you are good.

The Bible even says this in James. "Faith without works is dead".

So, works are the natural result of faith. If you have no works, you must not have faith. But it is not the saving grace.

Ephesians 2:8,9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

You are just too stubborn to look at the facts, my friend.

Which facts are these?

You can blindly follow someone even if you don't agree on some points.

Can I? Yes I can. Do I? No, not at all. You're speaking as though you know me, which you do not.

So, works are the natural result of faith. If you have no works, you must not have faith. But it is not the saving grace.

Ephesians 2:8,9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Works are both the natural result of faith, and also of one's own doing. God doesn't say "He converted so let me make Him do righteous deeds". No. One with faith seeks to please God through good works, and we all know that pleasing God is good.

Anyways, this is off topic from the main debate.

Which facts are these?

The fact that Paul contradicts Jesus, that the Bible contradicts itself (and please don't give me those Qur'an contradictions, those are too easy to answer), the many facts pointed out by Atheists and members of other religions alike, etc.

Of course, as stated earlier (and in the Qur'an), Allah will keep those who are on the wrong path on the wrong path if He so wills. I just pray (Intercession) that Allah doesn't will this for you.



Can I? Yes I can. Do I? No, not at all. You're speaking as though you know me, which you do not.

I have never stated that I know you, nor will I probably ever (except in heaven, see my earlier post about Islam, Intercession, and Heaven).

The fact that Paul contradicts Jesus, that the Bible contradicts itself (and please don't give me those Qur'an contradictions, those are too easy to answer), the many facts pointed out by Atheists and members of other religions alike, etc.

I welcome those "contradictions" They are probably quite answerable as well.

Of course, as stated earlier, Allah will keep those who are on the wrong path on the wrong path if He so wills. I just pray (Intercession) that Allah doesn't will this for you.

I will not intercede for you (Jesus is the sole Intercessor). But I do pray that I will meet you in heaven and that the Holy Spirit will regenerate you and draw you to the cross.



I have never stated that I know you, nor will I probably ever (except in heaven, see my earlier post about Islam, Intercession, and Heaven).[/QUOTE]

I welcome those "contradictions" They are probably quite answerable

Ok, coming up.



I will not intercede for you (Jesus is the sole Intercessor). But I do pray that I will meet you in heaven and that the Holy Spirit will regenerate you and draw you to the cross.

That arouses 2 questions.

1) Why would Jesus pray to himself? He doesn't need to do that, he can just make it happen. Anything otherwise (I.E him having to ask the father for permission) states that he is not God (since God doesn't need anyone else's permission to do what He wants).

2) Why do I always hear "I'll pray for you" if that is true?

1) Why would Jesus pray to himself? He doesn't need to do that, he can just make it happen. Anything otherwise (I.E him having to ask the father for permission) states that he is not God (since God doesn't need anyone else's permission to do what He wants).

He appeases the wrath of God the Father who is Judge.

2) Why do I always hear "I'll pray for you" if that is true?

That is ambiguous. What are you referring to?

Ok, sorry to not post these right here, but I'll post a link. This is some valuable debate material: http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html

http://www.evilbible.com/contradictions.htm <--- Forgive the name of that site. I wouldn't like to be led to a site called "Evil Qur'an", but it still has some contradictions to list.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm <---- Answering-Christianity is an excellent site for...well...answering Christianity.

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paultheology.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm <---- Basically Bible refutals in general.

He appeases the wrath of God the Father who is Judge.

You mean he makes quiet the wrath of his equal? Why would he need to do that when he can just do whatever he wants (without worry)?

Why isn't Jesus a judge if all members of the Godhead are equal? Why does God the father have the final say in everything, and not his two equals: Jesus and the Holy Spirit?



That is ambiguous. What are you referring to?
Random things; just ignore that question.

You mean he makes quiet the wrath of his equal? Why would he need to do that when he can just do whatever he wants (without worry)?

Why isn't Jesus a judge if all members of the Godhead are equal? Why does God the father have the final say in everything, and not his two equals: Jesus and the Holy Spirit?


Random things; just ignore that question.

I don't have time to read all your "contradictions" Many refer to when John doesn't mention something that the other Gospels do. That is not a contradiction. The differences between Paul and Jesus and other writers don't take context into account.

It's an expression. Intercession must take place because Man is so sinful, He cannot approach God. But Jesus is the Intercessor. He is man, so He is truly approaching God. He is God, so He is perfect and able to approach God (Himself) on behalf of the sinful. When I said He quiets the wrath of the Father, I was speaking of the Judgment and getting my times confused.

But don't you think the idea of Iehovah having a wager with Lucifer over Job, and Abraham's direct conversation with God... there seems to be a disproportionate God-like powers.

When people pray for stuff, tangible or otherwise, they are trying to influence Iehovah, which is exercising power (albeit in the name of humility).

If the Divine Plan is deterministic there is no point in praying.

From the soterological viewpoint of Calvinism, prayer is a form of worship, and acknowledgement of God's power and Lordship, and not an attempt at influence. "Thy will be done". And not a form of attempted influence.

Christianity is very much Tri-Theistic, depending on which particular version a person ascribes to.

Catholicism, for instance, seems to imply that the Trinity are indeed one collective entity.

Others believe that they are three separate individuals.

However, Catholicism is very much Thri-Theistic.

Even though they do not hold Mary in exactly the same regard as Jesus, or God, they do, in fact, worship her.

Ergo, they worship God, Jesus, and the "Virgin" Mary.


http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5200/shitrl7.png (http://imageshack.us)

If I told you that "My mother, myself, and my brother are one person" but yet I also state "we are 3 different entities that make up this one person", would you believe me? If I told you that "George W. Bush if Ronald Reagan incarnate", even though he was born while Ronald Reagan was alive, would you believe me? They could easily be lying to you.

It makes no sense that 3 entities are 1 person. And don't give me that "apple" story, that is too easy to tear apart.

They aren't 1 person, they are three persons, 1 entity....

I don't have time to read all your "contradictions" Many refer to when John doesn't mention something that the other Gospels do. That is not a contradiction. The differences between Paul and Jesus and other writers don't take context into account.

That is what I meant by you are too stubborn to accept the facts. "Most" does not equal "all". I sincerely hope that you aren't one whom Allah wills to stay on the wrong path.

But Jesus is the Intercessor. He is man, so He is truly approaching God.

But Christianity teaches that Jesus' fleshly part died with him on the cross. Also, last time I checked, God is not a man (as Christianity states I.E Jesus was "fully man")

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5200/shitrl7.png (http://imageshack.us)

LOLOLOLOLOL :D

Funny pic :D

From the soterological viewpoint of Calvinism, prayer is a form of worship, and acknowledgement of God's power and Lordship, and not an attempt at influence. "Thy will be done". And not a form of attempted influence.

:eek:

Are you perchance a Reformed Christian?

That is what I meant by you are too stubborn to accept the facts. "Most" does not equal "all". I sincerely hope that you aren't one whom Allah wills to stay on the wrong path.

I do not think that God wills me to stay on the wrong path. In fact I know He doesn't. Or else, I would be on it.

But Christianity teaches that Jesus' fleshly part died with him on the cross. Also, last time I checked, God is not a man (as Christianity states I.E Jesus was "fully man")

Jesus was also resurrected. And Thomas touched His wounds. Jesus is fully man and fully God, the two natures joined, not mixed.

Jesus is fully man and fully God, the two natures joined, not mixed.

This leads back to the debate about the Trinity and logic, but meh.

Also, joined and mixed are basically the same. If you want to get scientific, I guess you mean "homogenus mixture" :D

This leads back to the debate about the Trinity and logic, but meh.

Also, joined and mixed are basically the same. If you want to get scientific, I guess you mean "homogenus mixture" :D

No, not so much. weld two pieces of metal together: they're joined, but I didn't melt them down and stir them together: so they're not mixed.

Christianity is very much Tri-Theistic, depending on which particular version a person ascribes to.

Catholicism, for instance, seems to imply that the Trinity are indeed one collective entity.

Others believe that they are three separate individuals.

However, Catholicism is very much Thri-Theistic.

Even though they do not hold Mary in exactly the same regard as Jesus, or God, they do, in fact, worship her.

Ergo, they worship God, Jesus, and the "Virgin" Mary.

Well this is just awfully confusing. And here I thought I was just saying, "Dude, that Mary was a great lady." But clearly, I was actually saying, "Whoa, Mary, you're like, teh awesome, and I bow down and worship before you." Because, you know, I'm Catholic. And it's been proven that Catholics worship Mary. :rolleyes:

Or not. I'd appreciate you not misrepresenting my faith and the faith of millions of others. There are plenty of good ways to critique Catholicism without resorting to misrepresenting it. The Church has certainly made enough mistakes to allow for that.

Which is why Christianity is flawed. Worship should be to Allah and Allah alone, not to Jesus(pbuh) as well.

And you would seek to impose that on people (such as myself) who do not wish to worship the god ("the god" is the literal translation of "Allah"; it is not a proper name)?

THAT is why we have freedom of religion - so that you cannot FORCE us to worship the god.

I personally believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, and that "the god" is nothing but a product of Mohammed's "visions".

Jesus knew when and how He would die before it happened.
Mohammed? "By the god, though I am the apostle of the god, yet I do not know what the god will do with me!"

Jesus: "Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do."
Mohammed: "Oh god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"

And I suppose you want to kill me for insisting on worshipping Jesus Christ instead of "the god"?

Fine with me; I know of no better reason to die.:D

Jesus was also resurrected. And Thomas touched His wounds. Jesus is fully man and fully God, the two natures joined, not mixed.

I am with you; Jesus IS the God-man!

And you would seek to impose that on people (such as myself) who do not wish to worship the god ("the god" is the literal translation of "Allah"; it is not a proper name)?

THAT is why we have freedom of religion - so that you cannot FORCE us to worship the god.

I personally believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, and that "the god" is nothing but a product of Mohammed's "visions".

Jesus knew when and how He would die before it happened.
Mohammed? "By the god, though I am the apostle of the god, yet I do not know what the god will do with me!"

Jesus: "Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do."
Mohammed: "Oh god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"

And I suppose you want to kill me for insisting on worshipping Jesus Christ instead of "the god"?

Fine with me; I know of no better reason to die.:D

Ummm, actually, Soviestan is a little less radical than those Muslims who are of terrorist caliber.

People too often think that they are supposed to worship Jesus, and occasionally even Mary, the Saints, and the Pope, for you Catholics out there. However, what you're actually supposed to is worship God, and you are only supposed to become like Jesus. Essentially, he is the quintessential man.

Personally, I don't observe there to be any difference between God and the Holy Spirit.

People too often think that they are supposed to worship Jesus, and occasionally even Mary, the Saints, and the Pope, for you Catholics out there. However, what you're actually supposed to is worship God, and you are only supposed to become like Jesus. Essentially, he is the quintessential man.

Personally, I don't observe there to be any difference between God and the Holy Spirit.

Could you explain this to me, then. I have to leave, but I'll read your response tomorrow.

If Roman Catholics are trinitarian, how can you not worship Jesus?

Could you explain this to me, then. I have to leave, but I'll read your response tomorrow.

If Roman Catholics are trinitarian, how can you not worship Jesus?
Roman Catholics can go and worship whoever they please, but I'm not a Roman Catholic.

God isn't out of Logic.



Why not?
What higher power told you this?

This leads back to the debate about the Trinity and logic, but meh.

Also, joined and mixed are basically the same. If you want to get scientific, I guess you mean "homogenus mixture" :D

I know you have most likely heard this before, but it is quite relevant nonetheless.

The problem is that we are finite creatures trying to wrap our minds around an infinite God, a God that transcends our spatio-temporal existence. I think of Edwin Abbot's Flatland, wherein a 3-dimensional sphere tries to reveal the truth of the 3rd dimension to a 2-dimensional square. To the square, the sphere looks like a 2-dimensional circle, but it's really a sphere. Now picture a 3-D human interacting with this square. This one human could appear as ten small circles to the square by dipping its fingers into Flatland: 10 yet one.

When we think of God, it is somewhat like this 2-dimensional square trying to understand a 3rd dimension. It is difficult, nay, impossible to fully comprehend. About anything we say about God can be nothing but metaphor--a non-literal, imperfect likeness that can help us to begin to understand, not something that gives a full and accurate representation. We need to recognize that we cannot fit everything about God into our linear, spatio-temporal way of thinking.

String physics seems to have an inkling of this way of understanding. Brian Greene explains that Quantum Mechanics and Electromagnetism are-- according to linear, 3-dimensional physics-- irreconcilable contradicitions. The only way they can figure that the two can be simultaneously true is by adding dimensions to reality (at least 12 dimensions total).

When Christians say "God is three and yet one", it is because that is the way we believe God has revealed himself to us. It may not make sense, but neither does the co-existence of Electromagnetism and Quantum Mechanics. Therefore, we logically conclude that logic is insufficient to understand a being that transcends logic.

I suddenly realised last night that Christianity is clearly not a monotheism, and not because of the Holy Trinity. The three Gods that have the power to influence each other in the Christian school of thought are:

1. Iehovah (all incarnations)
2. Lucifer
3. Man

For mere servants of God, Lucifer and human beings seem to have a lot of power and influence over Iehovah, in fact, power at a personal level (conversations, prayer).

Have other people noticed this? :)

Man is powerless and ignorant, having only what God gives us.

Satan is not a god because he is is extremely powerful, but he is nothing compared to God.

I you are going to state that Satan is a god then every angel should also be a God.

Although I think this view is preposterous.

If Roman Catholics are trinitarian, how can you not worship Jesus? Let me ask you this: what does it mean to worship, in this sense?

Christianity is very much Tri-Theistic, depending on which particular version a person ascribes to.

Catholicism, for instance, seems to imply that the Trinity are indeed one collective entity.

Others believe that they are three separate individuals.

However, Catholicism is very much Thri-Theistic.

Even though they do not hold Mary in exactly the same regard as Jesus, or God, they do, in fact, worship her.

Ergo, they worship God, Jesus, and the "Virgin" Mary.
I'm a Catholic. We don't worship Mary in any way. We venerate her. She has no special qualities that God did not grace her with.
People everywhere say that Ghandi was a good man with an amazing spirit for peace. There are even statues of him erected in some places. I think he's great. I have an amazing ability to respect someone without worshiping that person.

People too often think that they are supposed to worship Jesus, and occasionally even Mary, the Saints, and the Pope, for you Catholics out there. However, what you're actually supposed to is worship God, and you are only supposed to become like Jesus. Essentially, he is the quintessential man.

Personally, I don't observe there to be any difference between God and the Holy Spirit.
I've never met Catholics, not even dumb ones who think the saints or the pope is supposed to be worshipped. The only people I hear saying that Catholics worship Mary is non-Catholics.

I don't even know where they get this stuff. As for praying to Mary; is asking a friend to pray for you 'worshiping' that person? I don't think so.

Let me ask you this: what does it mean to worship, in this sense?

Catholics worship Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. All are equal, each is wholly God, and all of them are one.

Catholics ONLY worship the one God.

Roman Catholics can go and worship whoever they please, but I'm not a Roman Catholic.

Then why were you speaking for Roman Catholics, if you don't even know their beliefs?

Let me ask you this: what does it mean to worship, in this sense?

To give praise to

I suddenly realised last night that Christianity is clearly not a monotheism, and not because of the Holy Trinity. The three Gods that have the power to influence each other in the Christian school of thought are:

1. Iehovah (all incarnations)
2. Lucifer
3. Man

For mere servants of God, Lucifer and human beings seem to have a lot of power and influence over Iehovah, in fact, power at a personal level (conversations, prayer).

Have other people noticed this? :)

I completely agree that one could be listening to themselves one minute, to God another minute, and to the Devil a different moment. However, "Lucifer" and Man are both created beings and not gods.

Just because a person has the power to influence someone doesn't make them a god.

And you would seek to impose that on people (such as myself) who do not wish to worship the god ("the god" is the literal translation of "Allah"; it is not a proper name)?

THAT is why we have freedom of religion - so that you cannot FORCE us to worship the god.

I'm sorry, but last time I checked, we worship the same God. Also, last time I checked, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.

Also, since when was "God", a word (just like Allah) a name? All it is, just like Allah, is a word with the first letter capitalized.

I personally believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, and that "the god" is nothing but a product of Mohammed's "visions".

Quit making fun of your own God. Anyways, I personally believe that Jesus was a prophet and Muhammad was also one. But, that doesn't make it anymore true than what you said.

"I personally believe the earth is flat" - must mean it's true!

Jesus knew when and how He would die before it happened.
Mohammed? "By the god, though I am the apostle of the god, yet I do not know what the god will do with me!"

Muhammad was a prophet, not God. Allah revealed to him what he wanted to, and it is clear Allah didn't want to reveal Muhammad's death date.

Anyways, this goes back to what I said before. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it's true.

Jesus: "Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do."
Mohammed: "Oh god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"

LOL! Someone hasn't been listening for the past 5 years (after 9/11) when people said that that's not what Islam is about. And, I believe that you didn't supply a qur'an or Hadith quote for that, you just made it up. I'm sorry, you lose.

Why am I being so rude? Maybe it's because you waltz in here and claim that my religion is false while also making fun of it; something I respectfully didn't do with your religion.

Of course, I wouldn't kill you seeing as how Allah commanded in Surah 4 Ayah 29:

"And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely Allah is Most Merciful to you".

snip

Nice post; I'm glad you didn't resort to insults on me or my religion.

Anyways, it still seems to me that God would have no reason to confuse His people by not placing such an earth-shaking belief in His Holy Book. He wants His people to serve Him correctly, so He would obviously make it as clear as day, and not leave it up to the [sinfu and imperfect] humans to interpret.

Nice post; I'm glad you didn't resort to insults on me or my religion.

Anyways, it still seems to me that God would have no reason to confuse His people by not placing such an earth-shaking belief in His Holy Book. He wants His people to serve Him correctly, so He would obviously make it as clear as day, and not leave it up to the [sinfu and imperfect] humans to interpret.

Heh, I've had my foot in my mouth too many times to hurl insults on another's faith. Truth is, we just can't know for certain in this life. We can only go with what seems best.

But as far as God confusing people goes, I don't really see how that is avoidable. How can God avoid confusing us when he tries to reveal Himself in all his infinite greatness? How can we but stand in awe and be confounded at Him who is so far above us, above even our greatest imagination? Certainly there are things that we can grasp about God, but as He reveals more and more of Himself, we should be expected to be confused. Again, it's like a 2-dimensional square trying to understand a 3rd dimension.

What I think is cool about the Trinity is that here we can look at God and see that "God is love." He is "Love" because the Father loves the Son, loves the Spirit, etc. We look at God, and we see Love, and we see how to love one another. We see God submitting Himself to Himself. Who else would God submit to? And again, in this we see a picture of what we are to do ourselves: Islam (i.e. submission to the will of God).

I cherish the Trinity; I think it is beautiful. It does not fit into math and science, but math and science are things that we can be lord over. But if you stop trying to fit the Trinity in to math and science, and you start seeing it through the imagination, it becomes a kind of breathtaking poetry that you have to submit to; it demands your awe and adoration.

I'm sorry, but last time I checked, we worship the same God.

No. The words may be the same, but they are two different concepts. So the Muslim god (commonly called Allah in English to distinguish him from the God of Christianity) is a different deity from the God of Christianity (even though it is the same word when translated to Arabic).

Jews and Christians don't even worship the same God. God reveled Himself more (through Jesus and the Holy Spirit) and the Jews (speaking of religious adherents, not members of a race) reject(ed) that revelation. So they are worshiping a god who is not the God of Christianity.

:eek:

Are you perchance a Reformed Christian?

Yes

However, 3 people cannot be 1 person, even if they are "distinct"


Really. Go read the paper of the Concilium of Nycaea (spelling), end of the Arianist haeresis.

You fail to understand that logics cannot be applied to deities. You, as christian, are supposed to believe IN SPITE of reason.

I, as atheist, don't believe anything that is less than reasonable. But, you see, being an atheist spares me a lot of conflicts between faith and reason.

Actually, the Holy Trinity is supposed to be three parts of the same person, God. We don't worship each part separately, but only God and his son, Jesus.

But, I guess by technicality Christianity isn't really a monotheism.

I suddenly realised last night that Christianity is clearly not a monotheism, and not because of the Holy Trinity. The three Gods that have the power to influence each other in the Christian school of thought are:

1. Iehovah (all incarnations)
2. Lucifer
3. Man

For mere servants of God, Lucifer and human beings seem to have a lot of power and influence over Iehovah, in fact, power at a personal level (conversations, prayer).

Have other people noticed this? :)

1. Christians believe in only ONE God, made up of 3 distinct 'persons' - http://www.geocities.com/pjcroad/3in1

2. Christians do not believe that Lucifer/Satan/any other being (besides the one and only God) is God. Powerful, yes, but nowhere near as powerful as God.

3. Influence is different from control. We can influence God because God listens to us, but it's not the same as controlling Him. Thus, humans are not God either.

No. The words may be the same, but they are two different concepts. So the Muslim god (commonly called Allah in English to distinguish him from the God of Christianity) is a different deity from the God of Christianity (even though it is the same word when translated to Arabic).

Jews and Christians don't even worship the same God. God reveled Himself more (through Jesus and the Holy Spirit) and the Jews (speaking of religious adherents, not members of a race) reject(ed) that revelation. So they are worshiping a god who is not the God of Christianity.

It's clearly all the same God. They just percieve him in a different (I believe not completely correct way). If there are two people and one person thinks a friend is an asshole and the other person thinks he is a great person, they are still talking about the same guy, they just see him in a different way.


Arabic Christians call God "Allah", and they say it's the same Abrahamic God. Jews, Christians, and Moslems just have different ideas about how He works.

It's clearly all the same God. They just percieve him in a different (I believe not completely correct way). If there are two people and one person thinks a friend is an asshole and the other person thinks he is a great person, they are still talking about the same guy, they just see him in a different way.


Arabic Christians call God "Allah", and they say it's the same Abrahamic God. Jews, Christians, and Moslems just have different ideas about how He works.

True. Even if you believe that they don't worship God correctly, they are still the same God.

Abraham was about to sacrifice Ishmael (or Isaac for Christianity and Judaism) when God told him to stop. Abraham then continued devoting his life to serving one God, the first man to do so in a long time.

Fast forwarding a couple of years, Moses came and introduced the 10 commandments.

Fast forward again and you have Lot, and I forgot to mention Noah (before Moses).

Then comes the split. Jesus (PBUH) comes and preaches the same message of all prophets before him. Since he was the first prophet in a long time, people thought he was God Himself.

Jews disagree with this. So they don't accept Jesus.

Christianity grows to become a large religion so (as I and other Muslims believe) Allah sends the last prophet to set His people straight again. This is how all the religions are connected.

Also, Mandaeism and the Baha'i Faith are also Abrahamic Religions. All of them worship the same God, just differently.

True. Even if you believe that they don't worship God correctly, they are still the same God.

Abraham was about to sacrifice Ishmael (or Isaac for Christianity and Judaism) when God told him to stop. Abraham then continued devoting his life to serving one God, the first man to do so in a long time.

Fast forwarding a couple of years, Moses came and introduced the 10 commandments.

Fast forward again and you have Lot, and I forgot to mention Noah (before Moses).

Then comes the split. Jesus (PBUH) comes and preaches the same message of all prophets before him. Since he was the first prophet in a long time, people thought he was God Himself.

Jews disagree with this. So they don't accept Jesus.

Christianity grows to become a large religion so (as I and other Muslims believe) Allah sends the last prophet to set His people straight again. This is how all the religions are connected.

Also, Mandaeism and the Baha'i Faith are also Abrahamic Religions. All of them worship the same God, just differently.


You're entitled to your opinion, but don't state it as fact, or I'm gonna have to do this:

Jesus IS God. Jesus was sent to correct the bad old ways (eye for en eye etc) and to preach peace and love and to perform miracles, as evidenced by the Gospels of Luke and Matthew.

In the Bible, it warns of false religions and false prophets.

there is only one true god, me.

I always rationalized it by picturing God as a being with three distinct personalities that operate separate from one another. One is a strict but caring father figure that is perfectly willing to show you the business end of his boot. One is a caring, buddy/friend figure who is willing to sacrifice his very life for you. The third is a mysterious figure who is always speaking over our shoulders trying to lead us on the right path in life.

Ultimately, God consists of all three figures. At some point before the New Testament, God must have experienced a traumatic event that caused his three personalities to shatter apart. He used to be a really brutal dictator who shot fire and brimstone for the slightest sin. His 'protector' personality, who helps him cope with tough situations must be God the father; while his child-like personality is obviously Jesus.

My religion teacher from high school would probably smack me with a ruler for this diatribe.