NationStates Jolt Archive

a democrat rep. is trying to bring it back.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/19/rangel.draft.ap/index.html

i believe this is political suicide and if it goes through with the house majority being democrats this is not only suicide for the individuals but also for the party.

Lets see here:

public questions morality of war.
President largely disliked due to war.
Huge amounts of money being spent on the war.
Someone set themselves on fire in protest of war.
and now a draft will be put in to support the war.

Sounds like Vietnam to me.

Oh I would just die laughing if this actually passes. Mainly because the irony it poses.

No "We already have a draft, I don't care about your country" option?

Representative Rangel has lost my respect completely. The draft is a travesty against human rights, and any Democrat who would implement it is a useless populist who needs to find a new party.

I wholeheartedly support Rep. Rangel's well-thought and meaning decision. All those who are able to serve at age 18 should serve at least 2 years.

No "We already have a draft, I don't care about your country" option?

Considering a draft to increase troop levels would make it easier for the U.S. to have an aggressive foreign policy I think you and everyone else in the world should care.

a democrat rep. is trying to bring it back.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/19/rangel.draft.ap/index.html

i believe this is political suicide and if it goes through with the house majority being democrats this is not only suicide for the individuals but also for the party.

He doesn't really want to bring back the draft, its a protest to the Iraq war. Look up the stuff he's said in the past about this bill.

This is the third time he's tried to get a draft passed. It failed the first two times as well, mostly because he doesn't even have support from his own party on this.

Considering a draft to increase troop levels would make it easier for the U.S. to have an aggressive foreign policy I think you and everyone else in the world should care.

And you see I don't care because: a.) fuck the world, and b.) our other allies have nukes, and c.) we can get nukes easily ourselves should the need arise.

You guys are missing something though: If there were to be a draft, then the U.S. Military wouldn't have let so many soldiers leave Iraq (and keep them out).

I absolutely support Rep. Rangel's well-thought and meaning decision. All those who are able to serve at age 18 should serve at least 2 years.

what if they are pacifists?

and military service might be a good idea but I think Germanys idea of having a community service option would have to be used (with that said the main support for such an idea is that troop numbers in Britain are ludicrously under what it should be) then again forcing people to work isn’t the greatest idea in history

I absolutely support Rep. Rangel's well-thought and meaning decision. All those who are able to serve at age 18 should serve at least 2 years.

No.

Sorry man, but I owe you nothing. I won't go die for an old man's war, and I won't go die to make you richer. I'll judge for myself which war I am willing to support or fight in. I will not fight without a choice. I would be perfectly willing to begin new draft riots if such a thing were to happen.

If you want your wars fought, you can go fight them yourself.

Considering a draft to increase troop levels would make it easier for the U.S. to have an aggressive foreign policy I think you and everyone else in the world should care.

Aggressive against other people.

And you see I don't care because: a.) fuck the world, and b.) our other allies have nukes, and c.) we can get nukes easily ourselves should the need arise.

Dude, your Sweden. Go away, nobody cares about Sweden.Disclaimer: Hope you can take a joke...

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?

He doesn't really want to bring back the draft, its a protest to the Iraq war. Look up the stuff he's said in the past about this bill.

Wow. That's a great legislative tactic.

Sigh, this is exactly the kind of thing we miss out on in a country with an impotent legislature.

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?

I don't need your discipline. See, its conservative old men who say things like that make me unwilling to even think of involving myself in the armed forces.

They don't seem to understand: We owe you nothing. You have no control over what we are willing to stand for or against.

Dude, your Sweden. Go away, nobody cares about Sweden.
Disclaimer: Hope you can take a joke...

And that's exactly how we'd like it to remain.

Attempt to insult Sweden all you want. I really don't care as I loathe nationalism, and can think of thousands of funner things to do than to stick up for a nation before someone on teh intarwebs.

what if they are pacifists?

and military service might be a good idea but I think Germanys idea of having a community service option would have to be used (with that said the main support for such an idea is that troop numbers in Britain are ludicrously under what it should be) then again forcing people to work isn’t the greatest idea in history

Amish and such are exempt.

No.

Sorry man, but I owe you nothing. I won't go die for an old man's war, and I won't go die to make you richer. I'll judge for myself which war I am willing to support or fight in. I will not fight without a choice. I would be perfectly willing to begin new draft riots if such a thing were to happen.

If you want your wars fought, you can go fight them yourself.

I don't mean ship you off to Iraq or anything, just train you.


Damn...no on thought I was trolling. Not that I was, I just thought maybe someone would...*waits for MTAE*

look at meeeeee! MEEEE I SAY!

no.

Dude, your Sweden. Go away, nobody cares about Sweden.Disclaimer: Hope you can take a joke...

Nobody cares about the US, you guys can keep getting killed on your little adventures in Iraq or Vietnam or whatever and no one is going to feel sorry for you.

I don't mean ship you off to Iraq or anything, just train you.


But you see, I don't even owe you that much. I have rights too, and if I can't vote until I'm 18, then I don't really have a say about the direction of the policy that sends me to war, or even just puts me on call for going to war.

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?
I kindof agree with MTAE :headbang:
*tries to avoid rotten tomatoes*

except for the great part, and the Iraq part, and the acceptable state part. but I'm all for molding youth, I think they should be molded more regularly, and preferably with a stick. I'm sick of these kids that get away with the most obscene activities because it's politically incorrect to mold them. these kids these days, they're not disciplined enough.

plus, i imagine MTAE isn't 18 yet, which means he'll be drafted.

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?

YES! I agree completely! Finally, he says something smart! *thumbs up*


But you see, I don't even owe you that much. I have rights too, and if I can't vote until I'm 18, then I don't really have a say about the direction of the policy that sends me to war, or even just puts me on call for going to war.
Fine, vote and then you can do your time.

We owe you nothing.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

Amish and such are exempt.

well then you had better start investing in Amish industries because the country is going to be swarming with them :p (I’m Amish myself you’ know its just that I’m a particularly sinful one)

a democrat rep. is trying to bring it back.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/19/rangel.draft.ap/index.html

i believe this is political suicide and if it goes through with the house majority being democrats this is not only suicide for the individuals but also for the party.

i'll have a draft beer with them..does that count?

Nobody cares about the US, you guys can keep getting killed on your little adventures in Iraq or Vietnam or whatever and no one is going to feel sorry for you.

Read the disclaimer. Nobody has to feel sorry for the U.S. for it to continue doing what it's doing.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

So does that mean oppression is?

It's both unwise and immoral. No, thanks.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

No. We don't. We didn't ask to be born into a society where we are expected to give our life so that old men can get richer and fatter. We owe you nothing until you have given us something to owe you for, and if you ask us to give up our lives before we get any of those rights, we owe you nothing.

There is no social debt. I am my own person. I may choose, or not choose, whether to support your wars, but I will not support them just because you demand that I do. I will choose what is or is not worth dying for, and you will not dictate to me what is.

I live here too, and I will not leave. You don't own me. I'm not your slave just because I'm young.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

I still can't believe I agree with you...:D

well then you had better start investing in Amish industries because the country is going to be swarming with them :p (I’m Amish myself you’ know its just that I’m a particularly sinful one)

Legitimate Amish

And you see I don't care because: a.) fuck the world, and b.) our other allies have nukes, and c.) we can get nukes easily ourselves should the need arise.

Having nukes won't help you in the end when you have no army worth talking about. America could sneeze and Sweden would fall.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.
well i don't agree with the fighting bit, but i certainly do on the living and owing. I like the above suggestion to make civil service an option.
Another reason it might not be a terrible idea, is that many people go to college simply because it is the next phase of life. Forced service would give people more chance to reflect on what they like about their country, and how they can contribute to it. I particularly dislike doctors who become doctors for the money, so more of those kids should be sent to places that really need doctors for something more than botox injections.

Fine, vote and then you can do your time.

So you're willing to grant me the vote at age 8, or not ship people off until 28? Because wars don't happen overnight. You choose the path you will go on.

So you're willing to grant me the vote at age 8, or not ship people off until 28? Because wars don't happen overnight. You choose the path you will go on.

Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_military_service)

I'm sick of these kids that get away with the most obscene activities
plus, i imagine MTAE isn't 18 yet, which means he'll be drafted.

1)what obscene activities?
2) I'm 17 and chugging along to the military happily and I say fuck drafts


If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

your thinking of some backwards nationalist state in the modern times freedom is free (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_an_army)

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?

God you are an idoit. You have honest to god never ever even heard of the country of Vietnam, let alone the war. Honestly, go back under your rock and stay there.

No. We don't. We didn't ask to be born into a society where we are expected to give our life so that old men can get richer and fatter. We owe you nothing until you have given us something to owe you for, and if you ask us to give up our lives before we get any of those rights, we owe you nothing.

There is no social debt. I am my own person. I may choose, or not choose, whether to support your wars, but I will not support them just because you demand that I do. I will choose what is or is not worth dying for, and you will not dictate to me what is.

I live here too, and I will not leave. You don't own me. I'm not your slave just because I'm young.
you're right. that's why drafts are issued are at 18, as an adult. Children do not owe anything to the state, except a lot of obnoxious drivel. if you don't like it, then leave the country, though admittedly that makes you a deserter. laws are not suggestions, they are laws, and whatever else I may think about human rights, that's the way of it.

Having nukes won't help you in the end when you have no army worth talking about.

You see, the whole point of MAD is that armies are irrelevant.

America could sneeze and Sweden would fall.

Sweden alone without nukes, yes. Sweden with the rest of the EU? Or Sweden with Russia? Highly unlikely.

I hope not. Last thing we need is an more of you guys jumping the border.

There would never be another draft in the US.
First, it would be political suicide for whichever party instated it, and secondly it would cause great political unrest throughout the rest of the country. Remeber Vietnam.

Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_military_service)

And I'm saying that it is mostly 18-28s who end up fighting and dying in petty wars, when they haven't had time to set the policy that sent them.

Most of that link was redundant. What was I supposed to see?

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.
Didn't our founding fathers pretty much say it should be free, and that's why they created this country?

BTW, I accidentally clicked "good idea." I thought it said "bad idea." So the results are screwy now.

Legitimate Amish

what would make a legitimate Amish after all Amish teens can be quite rebellious like all teens? (drinking ,smoking and such)

you could also just take illegal drugs and too be honest who (excluding professions with drug tests) isn’t on pot these days?

1)what obscene activities?
2) I'm 17 and chugging along to the military happily and I say fuck drafts
well, obscene was a bit much. the way i look at it, when i was in grade 3, i would never have dreamed of mouthing off to someone in grade 7. now, i see kids in the streets, who don't move for cars to get by. when the driver honks, they start swearing their heads off, and screaming and this kindof thing. likewise in school, bullying does serve a purpose, which is to force kids to respect their elders. not that all elders deserve respect, but once learned, the practice of respect hopefully extends elsewhere. i know i got bullied, and while not always the most respectful person, i at least don't fly into a tantrum when i'm caught doing something stupid.

No. We don't. We didn't ask to be born into a society where we are expected to give our life so that old men can get richer and fatter. We owe you nothing until you have given us something to owe you for, and if you ask us to give up our lives before we get any of those rights, we owe you nothing.

There is no social debt. I am my own person. I may choose, or not choose, whether to support your wars, but I will not support them just because you demand that I do. I will choose what is or is not worth dying for, and you will not dictate to me what is.

I live here too, and I will not leave. You don't own me. I'm not your slave just because I'm young.


Damn right dude. Older conservative people just have thier heads up thier asses. Honestly this country would do so much better with yonger people in control. The older aren't more experianced. They're simply more stubborn, arrogant, hard headed, and corrupt. The youth can expand horizons, work effiecently, and do good, not slug it out in retarded wastelands for so called "ideals". The truth is, freedom is not free, however that doesnt mean that we have to go galavanting around the planet looking for wars that don't make sense, against opponents that are simply defending their nation. It'll all come back to bite us in the ass one day, and you know whos gonna have to take it and pay for it? the youth of now, becuase thier grandparents are idoits that think they rule the world. Well this wont be so when the Chinese flag flies over the white house, and the people of this nation are dictated what to do by the barrell of an AK. Becuase their parents generation destroyed what their nation stood for, and corrupted it to the point of fracture.

you're right. that's why drafts are issued are at 18, as an adult. Children do not owe anything to the state, except a lot of obnoxious drivel. if you don't like it, then leave the country, though admittedly that makes you a deserter. laws are not suggestions, they are laws, and whatever else I may think about human rights, that's the way of it.

I refuse to simply let you declare dominance over me. The draft is slavery (moronic SCOTUS descisions, also made by greedy old men, aside), and it is a perpetration of the wars of the old by the helpless young.

Like I said, I don't owe you anything, and you can't change it around so that I do. You've never given me a thing and so I refuse to give you my life.

This would be a disaster. Not only is there widespread dissaproval of the whole war in general, but this time politicians might have to deal with the femenist issue. The last time america was in a very large wartime (eg. veitnam) it was not commonplace for women to join the army. Nowadays it is, and somebody will have to decide whether the draft will apply to young women as well. It's not a likely problem but it would certainly come up.

Someone set themselves on fire in protest of war.

Sounds like Vietnam to me.

The war, however, is a different one than you think.

Vietnamese Buddhist monk sets himself on fire to protest Communism, which the US was fighting in Vietnam.

German Christian vicar sets himself on fire to protest militant Islam, which the US is (and Western Civilization should be) fighting across the world.

The only people that set themselves on fire to protest US foreign policy take hundreds of civilians with them to hell.

I refuse to simply let you declare dominance over me. The draft is slavery (moronic SCOTUS descisions, also made by greedy old men, aside), and it is a perpetration of the wars of the old by the helpless young.

Like I said, I don't owe you anything, and you can't change it around so that I do. You've never given me a thing and so I refuse to give you my life.
the draft is not slavery. slavery means you don't get paid, among other things. my point is that it doesn't really matter what you refuse to do, your principles have very little regard in the matter. if a draft is declared, you will go to war, or you will go to civil service. anything else is desertion.

the way i look at it, when i was in grade 3, i would never have dreamed of mouthing off to someone in grade 7.

And that's a good thing?

now, i see kids in the streets, who don't move for cars to get by. when the driver honks, they start swearing their heads off, and screaming and this kindof thing.

That's stupid and rude, but I don't think beating people with sticks will make much difference.

likewise in school, bullying does serve a purpose, which is to force kids to respect their elders.

Why should they? And servility and respect are two different things.

not that all elders deserve respect,

Bullies least of all.

but once learned, the practice of respect hopefully extends elsewhere.

Not respect, servility.

I don't want children to be indoctrinated into subservience, sorry. You authoritarians make me sick.

well, obscene was a bit much. the way i look at it, when i was in grade 3, i would never have dreamed of mouthing off to someone in grade 7.

never had an older brother :confused:

now, i see kids in the streets, who don't move for cars to get by. when the driver honks, they start swearing their heads off, and screaming and this kindof thing.

never in my life have I ever seen this mostly because there a some cars with drivers who you don't want to see pissed off especially if there in a motorized vehicle :D

likewise in school, bullying does serve a purpose, which is to force kids to respect their elders. not that all elders deserve respect, but once learned, the practice of respect hopefully extends elsewhere.

bullies do it for kicks not some divine mission to spread respect for elders

i know i got bullied, and while not always the most respectful person, i at least don't fly into a tantrum when i'm caught doing something stupid.

welcome to maturity please sit and wish you was immature again

No. We don't. We didn't ask to be born into a society where we are expected to give our life so that old men can get richer and fatter. We owe you nothing until you have given us something to owe you for, and if you ask us to give up our lives before we get any of those rights, we owe you nothing.

There is no social debt. I am my own person. I may choose, or not choose, whether to support your wars, but I will not support them just because you demand that I do. I will choose what is or is not worth dying for, and you will not dictate to me what is.

Ever used a road?

</Devil's advocate>

And I'm saying that it is mostly 18-28s who end up fighting and dying in petty wars, when they haven't had time to set the policy that sent them.

Most of that link was redundant. What was I supposed to see?

Conscription, not a full draft. Like in Israel, Germany, etc. You serve and are trained, but you likely won't be sent to war.

what would make a legitimate Amish after all Amish teens can be quite rebellious like all teens? (drinking ,smoking and such)

you could also just take illegal drugs and too be honest who (excluding professions with drug tests) isn’t on pot these days?

As in they didn't sign up after the legislation was enacted. amish don;t really accept newcomers anyway.

Damn right dude. Older conservative people just have thier heads up thier asses. Honestly this country would do so much better with yonger people in control.
i used to think think this too. and then i discovered how many of my friends are young conservatives or young republicans, or the equivalent. unfortunately, it is not the older generation who are purely conservative (there wouldn't be two parties in that case), it's just selfish people. and they come in all ages.

the draft is not slavery. slavery means you don't get paid, among other things. my point is that it doesn't really matter what you refuse to do, your principles have very little regard in the matter. if a draft is declared, you will go to war, or you will go to civil service. anything else is desertion.

Slavery is forcing me to give my life for your petty little money. Slavery is forcing me into the army for two years of my life. Slavery is saying that I have no say about what I'm willing to fight and die for.

If a draft is declared, I will go, so long as every draftee has a person who voted for the politicians in power strapped to their back, so that they can pay the price for their war as well.

You don't own me. You can call it desertion, I call it freedom.

Ever used a road?

</Devil's advocate>

Yes, and I'll pay taxes for it when I actually have an income.

the draft is not slavery. slavery means you don't get paid, among other things. my point is that it doesn't really matter what you refuse to do, your principles have very little regard in the matter. if a draft is declared, you will go to war, or you will go to civil service. anything else is desertion.

The defining quality of slavery is that the choice to not work, (or quit), is not available. Payment is optional, and indeed, many systems did involve slaves being paid a steady wage.

anything else is desertion.

And desertion from an imperialist war (or from any stupid war the state decides to waste lives in) is a very noble and commendable act.

Yes, and I'll pay taxes for it when I actually have an income.

So, you have no problem with simply giving your money to the Rich Old White Men who run your country, but serving in an army to indirectly line their pockets is out of the question?

Is this idealism, cowardice, or a just wishing to avoid the inconvenience of a two-year draft?

Is this idealism, cowardice, or a just wishing to avoid the inconvenience of a two-year draft?

Yes.

I'm not gonna deny that I'm terrified of going to war. I won't deny that a draft would be an inconvenience for me, and that I dislike that.

But I will say that I ideologically oppose the draft on the grounds that it is a slavery of the young to help the old.

I don't get anything for the draft. I get payed shit wages by a shit military, where I get a shit job which I get killed in.

I get roads, educational aid, and a number of other services for paying taxes.

And desertion from an imperialist war (or from any stupid war the state decides to waste lives in) is a very noble and commendable act.

Desertion is not deserting the State. It is deserting your comrades, the people who, having trained with you, bunked with you, and fought with you, rely on you to watch their back when they are in danger.

The state doesn't care if you desert, you are expendable and replaceable, it is your friends and comrades who you are putting in danger.

I was a bit unhappy, but I have to say: his reasoning is a little indirect:

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft, and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Slavery is forcing me to give my life for your petty little money. Slavery is forcing me into the army for two years of my life. Slavery is saying that I have no say about what I'm willing to fight and die for.

If a draft is declared, I will go, so long as every draftee has a person who voted for the politicians in power strapped to their back, so that they can pay the price for their war as well.

You don't own me. You can call it desertion, I call it freedom.
you're getting awfully testy, throwing around that 'you'. i'm telling you the way it is, i'm not forcing you into 'slavery'; i wouldn't want to own a spitting furball like you anyways. i prefer nice quiet slaves.. and besides, i said drafts should have the option of opt-out to civil service. there shouldn't be a reason to require people to die, except in extenuating circumstances. like a world war, and in those cases, all reason has gone from the situation

Yes.

I'm not gonna deny that I'm terrified of going to war. I won't deny that a draft would be an inconvenience for me, and that I dislike that.

But I will say that I ideologically oppose the draft on the grounds that it is a slavery of the young to help the old.

I don't get anything for the draft. I get payed shit wages by a shit military, where I get a shit job which I get killed in.

I get roads, educational aid, and a number of other services for paying taxes.

Fair enough, then we are in agreement that our basic argument against being drafted is that 'we would rather not be'.

And last time I checked that was good enough in a free society.

And desertion from an imperialist war (or from any stupid war the state decides to waste lives in) is a very noble and commendable act.
no it isn't, it's desertion. if you mean draft-dodging, then every individual should have the choice to desert, but they should not be allowed to live in a country they do not wish to serve. i have no sympathy for the soldiers who deserted the US military because they didn't believe the war in Iraq was ethical. soldiers do their job, and that's the end of it.
like it or not, that's how democracies work: tyranny by majority. they're the worst form of government, except all the other ones that have been tried.

As in they didn't sign up after the legislation was enacted. amish don;t really accept newcomers anyway.

so you now stop the spread of the Amish! I think the U.N wants to have a word with you on this

And I’d like to see the Amish army navigating at night using candles :p

so you now stop the spread of the Amish! I think the U.N wants to have a word with you on this

And I’d like to see the Amish army navigating at night using candles :p

They don't. They're like Jews and strongly discourage you from joining.

no it isn't, it's desertion. if you mean draft-dodging, then every individual should have the choice to desert, but they should not be allowed to live in a country they do not wish to serve.

Actually why don’t those who will “serve there country” just move hopefully to the Moon so we can have at least world peace (you can’t fight a war without armies :p)

like it or not, that's how democracies work: tyranny by majority.

no that’s not how democracy works otherwise New York would have huge control over the U.S compared to some sparely populated state

They don't. They're like Jews and strongly discourage you from joining.

you’ know you can just "say" your Amish right (alas back in the old days all you needed to do was wear women’s under wear to the physical :()

And the Amish are not like Jews maybe Jews from the 1700’s but not Jews

you’ know you can just "say" your Amish right (alas back in the old days all you needed to do was wear women’s under wear to the physical :()

And the Amish are not like Jews maybe Jews from the 1700’s but not Jews

A rabbi will give you a long lecture on why not to convert to Judaism...

Actually why don’t those who will “serve there country” just move hopefully to the Moon so we can have at least world peace (you can’t fight a war without armies :p)
i agree that i dislike war, but as others have pointed out, there is something to be said for service. not particularly for dying in mandatory service, but service nonetheless.

no that’s not how democracy works otherwise New York would have huge control over the U.S compared to some sparely populated state
of course it is. that's why 50.1% of 300 million dictated the policy of one of the most powerful countries in the world. it depends on how representation is allocated. i don't understand the electoral college, but i doubt it reflects popular vote very well. and in Canada, Ontario is essentially the key to the federal government. the distribution of control may not be localised, but it's still tyranny by majority. incidentally, that's a term i got from NS.

Regardless of the fact tht this is Representative Rangels third attempt to get this law passed, and like all the previous times, it will fail once again, I think it is a terrible idea.

Our army doesn't want conscripts who are there against their will, it wants to stick with the fully professional force that it currently has, and it is having no problems with recruitment, in fact, it's beating it's yearly goals.

Beyond that, a draft continues the road down towards the militarization of a society, something I wholeheartedly oppose. A free people, who universally are of a military background tend towards the military increasingly. They identify with the military, and the visibility that the military has had in their lives. They more readily support the actions of the military without question, and, yeah, we've got a whole can of worms that has been opened. This is not to knock the soldiers in our military, because they go of their own free will, and that's a major act of independence. It's forcing the people who aren't going to act of their own free will in that's dangerous.

Hell no I won't go! Hell no I won't go! Hell no, I won't go!

it's just selfish people. and they come in all ages.
So I'm selfish for not liking the choices A) die or B) rot in a prison cell?

Hell no I won't go! Hell no I won't go! Hell no, I won't go!

Hell, yes, you will go!

*traps Andaluciae in crate, ships him to Iraq* :D

you're getting awfully testy, throwing around that 'you'. i'm telling you the way it is, i'm not forcing you into 'slavery'; i wouldn't want to own a spitting furball like you anyways. i prefer nice quiet slaves.. and besides, i said drafts should have the option of opt-out to civil service. there shouldn't be a reason to require people to die, except in extenuating circumstances. like a world war, and in those cases, all reason has gone from the situation

But the thing is that all required service is slavery. I plan on going into the Peace Corps when I finish college. I plan on doing my little part to help humanity, but I don't owe it to you, or anyone else. I make that choice. It is blatant unfairness that the old ask the young to die in wars that the young never supported anyway. It is just as unfair that you ask them to give up 2 years of their lives when you have not done so. When you want conscription, you must give me your 2 years first. Go join the civil service. Every person over the age of the draft should do their time first, before they ask us to.

Fair enough, then we are in agreement that our basic argument against being drafted is that 'we would rather not be'.

And last time I checked that was good enough in a free society.

Well, I'd argue that it's more than "I'd rather not be." It's a matter of fairness, liberty, and justice. None of them are served by a draft.

i agree that i dislike war, but as others have pointed out, there is something to be said for service. not particularly for dying in mandatory service, but service nonetheless.

why not just be a nice reasonable guy who works hard and pays taxes (or be a fireman or something) instead of wasting 2 years on Government money doing jack shit except the odd exercise in some shit hole country side

the distribution of control may not be localised, but it's still tyranny by majority. incidentally, that's a term i got from NS.

so if lets say 70% of Americans wanted to bring back slavery or lets say seseed from the union this would happen

Hell, yes, you will go!

*traps Andaluciae in crate, ships him to Iraq* :D

Grrrrrr...If I were the awesome Kung Fu guy from Kill Bill...I'd be out of this damn crate in an instant...

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

I didn't choose to be born here.

Secondly, just about every military man I've ever heard talk about the draft thinks it's a terrible idea. The reason why America is good is because volunteers fight for her. You'd have desertion, people shooting themselves in the feet, draft dodging, and all the horrors involved in sending young men to die in a foreign country without their consent.

I'll move when I have the money thank you.

I wholeheartedly support Rep. Rangel's well-thought and meaning decision. All those who are able to serve at age 18 should serve at least 2 years.

No since half of those who joined would simply go AWOL or leave the country. And the idea of forcing people to get shot for causes they do not believe in is just atrocious. How could anyone live with themselves knowing they enstated a system that forces people to die?

I didn't choose to be born here.

Secondly, just about every military man I've ever heard talk about the draft thinks it's a terrible idea. The reason why America is good is because volunteers fight for her. You'd have desertion, people shooting themselves in the feet, draft dodging, and all the horrors involved in sending young men to die in a foreign country without their consent.

I'll move when I have the money thank you.

If the draft gets enstated, then i have one thing to say to that: AMEN

I am in favor of a draft, to be honest.

It accomplishes two things:

1) Makes real consideration of war necessary, since suffering for the war is distributed much more equally and fairly than it is now.

2) Brings a diversity of opinion and mindset into the military.

Years ago, when I was in HS and the wtc was attacked, I was quite distraught over the possibility of a draft, but now I don't think it is such a bad idea.

Assuming it were run like previous drafts, I would probably get a deferment until I finished law school, then enter as an officer.

I am in favor of a draft, to be honest.

So you want me to die?

Didn't know you hated me and my friends so much.

Before you go around toting your high-minded ideals, remember who you're enslaving and killing.

Not to mention the millions of young men and women who'd be taken out of the economy entirely.

More than that, how would they administer the draft to someone like me. I'm in the middle of my third year of college. Would they swoop in and grab me up right where I am? Would I get a deferral until after I finish my undergrad degree? Would I get a deferral until after I finish my graduate degree? What? How would it work? Would I get an outright deferral because shortly I shall be over 20? What?

I am in favor of a draft, to be honest.

It accomplishes two things:

1) Makes real consideration of war necessary, since suffering for the war is distributed much more equally and fairly than it is now.

BS. If we need conscription to make people "really consider" war, maybe we need to improve our education system so that people aren't a bunch of fucking idiots instead.

2) Brings a diversity of opinion and mindset into the military.

And destroys its professionalism, removes that bit of liberty involved in one's own pursuit of life and happiness, etc.

Just what kinds of diverse opinions do we want in the military, again? "I don't want to be here. I am a prisoner of an unjust, Soviet-esque style military?" I'm sure that'll be useful.

The state doesn't care if you desert, you are expendable and replaceable,

Let them try. How many can they replace?

it is your friends and comrades who you are putting in danger.

But I thought they were replaceable!

:rolleyes:

no it isn't, it's desertion. if you mean draft-dodging, then every individual should have the choice to desert, but they should not be allowed to live in a country they do not wish to serve.

They are not serving their country. They are serving a bunch of overprivileged white men who think that slaughtering thousands of people for control of the Middle East is a good thing.

i have no sympathy for the soldiers who deserted the US military because they didn't believe the war in Iraq was ethical. soldiers do their job, and that's the end of it.

Why should they?

like it or not, that's how democracies work: tyranny by majority.

And we have no obligation to obey tyrannies.

BS. If we need conscription to make people "really consider" war, maybe we need to improve our education system so that people aren't a bunch of fucking idiots instead.



And destroys its professionalism, removes that bit of liberty involved in one's own pursuit of life and happiness, etc.

Just what kinds of diverse opinions do we want in the military, again? "I don't want to be here. I am a prisoner of an unjust, Soviet-esque style military?" I'm sure that'll be useful.

Like it or not, most people, regardless of education, have no personal stake in the iraq war. A draft gives a lot more people a lot larger stake.

An all-volunteer army is pretty monolithic in terms of mindset, everyone there volunteered, and most people in it are quite similar in terms of socioeconomic status and education.

Drafting people, both into the enlisted and officer corps is a good way to break the insularity of the military. Also, it gives a much wider slice of the population an idea of what the military is like.

It is no coincidence that so many vietnam draftees are and have long been opposed to war and mistrustful of the government. This was a big factor in keeping america out of wars between vietnam and the iraq invasion.

Like it or not, most people, regardless of education, have no personal stake in the iraq war. A draft gives a lot more people a lot larger stake.

And why should I have a stake in the Iraq War? If a majority has no stake in it, clearly the war isn't one we should be fighting.

I'll only accept a draft if it's a total draft of every man and woman aged 18-70, regardless of class or position. Then if I'm going to die, the fucker from the government who got drafted can die with me.

Oh I would just die laughing if this actually passes. Mainly because the irony it poses.

And I will probably die in some country fighting in some war I may not wish to.

Not funny.

And why should I have a stake in the Iraq War? If a majority has no stake in it, clearly the war isn't one we should be fighting.

WOW you sure missed the point there.

It isnt a question of 'should,' we obviously shouldnt be fighting it, something obvious from the outset.

We ARE fighting it because people DONT have a stake.

Draft doesn't sound that great, in my opinion.

Well, I'd fix the draft by sealing the windows with plastic during the winter months.

Like it or not, most people, regardless of education, have no personal stake in the iraq war. A draft gives a lot more people a lot larger stake.

Also, realizing people in Iraq are human beings might do that.

I don't need to be fucking conscripted in order to think twice or thrice about the Iraq war.

Neither do politicians. They need to be held accountable by people like us. What you are doing with supporting a draft would just be giving them more cannon fodder.

An all-volunteer army is pretty monolithic in terms of mindset, everyone there volunteered, and most people in it are quite similar in terms of socioeconomic status and education.

Well, an all-volunteer fire department is pretty monolothic too. Maybe we should conscript people into the fire dept. Same with any institution. Like colleges. Instead of having people volunteer to be professors, we could make it mandatory and random. Wouldn't that be swell?

It is no coincidence that so many vietnam draftees are and have long been opposed to war and mistrustful of the government. This was a big factor in keeping america out of wars between vietnam and the iraq invasion.

And just how many draftees from vietnam will you find supporting this draft, eh? None that I know, but maybe you know different ones.

WOW you sure missed the point there.

It isnt a question of 'should,' we obviously shouldnt be fighting it, something obvious from the outset.

We ARE fighting it because people DONT have a stake.

So the obvious conclusion is that we must make it so that we have a stake in the war by putting innocent lives at stake for a war that was never worth it, but that we are stuck in now as long as the Dems in congress only have the balls to kill more people by drafting them?

Representative Rangel is tempting me to become a Libertarian right about now.

Oh, come on do people remember anything. The last time the draft was trying to be brought back a year or two ago two dem. senators brought it to the floor and the vote was 99-1 against the draft. Drafts are horrible and don't work anyway.

So the obvious conclusion is that we must make it so that we have a stake in the war by putting innocent lives at stake for a war that was never worth it, but that we are stuck in now as long as the Dems in congress only have the balls to kill more people by drafting them?


Heh. Yes. Apparently, the innocent lives ALREADY at stake aren't enough for New Granada and anyone else who supports a draft. I guess that's because they're only brown foreigners. Not that I'm implying there is racism involved in any way shape or form!


Representative Rangel is tempting me to become a Libertarian right about now.

Join us. We're a lot more sensible and we need more people independent of the ... well, monolithic... two-party roadblock.

Though I have to say I'm impressed with Obama anyway. He could potentially restore a lot of faith in the Democrats. Not that they need it, since they'll get about half the nation anyway, just like the Reps.

Heh. Yes. Apparently, the innocent lives ALREADY at stake aren't enough for New Granada and anyone else who supports a draft. I guess that's because they're only brown foreigners. Not that I'm implying there is racism involved in any way shape or form!

To be fair, the same is true of the racial balance in the US army. That is, in some ways, a problem.

Join us. We're a lot more sensible and we need more people independent of the ... well, monolithic... two-party roadblock.

Though I have to say I'm impressed with Obama anyway. He could potentially restore a lot of faith in the Democrats. Not that they need it, since they'll get about half the nation anyway, just like the Reps.

If you lot became more moderate on economic issues, I wouldn't think twice on jumping ship. I'm just not lasseize faire enough for it to be an easy choice yet.

It is a great idea. It will allow us to transform Iraq into a successful, free, and stable society and to mold our youth into a more acceptable state. It will instill discipline among our children and save a country from ruin. Why not?
Once again, I find you contradicting yourself. :p

If the draft was instituted, then that means they could draft your ass and send you to Iraq. You stated in an earlier thread that you would not risk your life for your country, and that it was somewhat insane to join the military. Changed your mind now?

To be fair, the same is true of the racial balance in the US army. That is, in some ways, a problem.


How so? People who join, join, those who don't, don't. I don't see why balance is an issue unless there is racial discrimination, and from what I know they don't do that insofar as who gets in. Any warm body, ya know.


If you lot became more moderate on economic issues, I wouldn't think twice on jumping ship. I'm just not lasseize faire enough for it to be an easy choice yet.

I actually realize this is the first time I considered myself a libertarian enough to say something cheesy like "join us."

I'm still a registered democrat, oddly.

But I'm nowhere near enough 'liberal' on a lot of issues to easily fit in there. No party is perfect. I guess I'm just thinking it's better to have a multi-party system, or at least functional checks and balances rather than a single monopoly. Question is, are democrats sufficiently different from republicans to consider them really two parties as far as that balance goes?

I don't really think so anymore...

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

Why move to a different country ... apparently my country the USA cares enough about or freedoms to not have a standing draft ... I would like to keep it this way

So sense YOU are the one wanting a change then maybe it is YOU that should move

Of course, handmade draft excluders work well set along the floor, just inside any door leading outside - and they can be decorative and fun, too!

http://www.initialideas.co.uk/pimages/l_4845.jpg

Not to mention all the money you'll save over the winter months in heating bills.

Damn right dude. Older conservative people just have thier heads up thier asses. Honestly this country would do so much better with yonger people in control. The older aren't more experianced. They're simply more stubborn, arrogant, hard headed, and corrupt. The youth can expand horizons, work effiecently, and do good, not slug it out in retarded wastelands for so called "ideals". The truth is, freedom is not free, however that doesnt mean that we have to go galavanting around the planet looking for wars that don't make sense, against opponents that are simply defending their nation. It'll all come back to bite us in the ass one day, and you know whos gonna have to take it and pay for it? the youth of now, becuase thier grandparents are idoits that think they rule the world. Well this wont be so when the Chinese flag flies over the white house, and the people of this nation are dictated what to do by the barrell of an AK. Becuase their parents generation destroyed what their nation stood for, and corrupted it to the point of fracture.

only if you actually choose the right youth (or left)

Personally, I've always liked one of the ideas Heinland came up with. Namely instead of allowing congress to declare war they declare a vote for it. Then everyone eligible for a draft, and only those eligible for a draft, get to vote on it. If you vote yes, congrates you joined the army for the duration, if you abstain you'll only be called up if they run out of people who voted yes, and if you vote no you're only up if we run out of the first two. Seems pretty fair to me.

"No state has an inherent right to survive through conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has."

- Robert A. Heinlein

I'm a dual citizen, I can't vote!! *cries* If there is a draft, I will move my ass to Japan. Strickly non-violence for me. If some other people want to go fight in some war, I'm not really in a position to stop them, but no one is going to get me to contribute to the death of anyone. Sorry.

Heh. Yes. Apparently, the innocent lives ALREADY at stake aren't enough for New Granada and anyone else who supports a draft. I guess that's because they're only brown foreigners. Not that I'm implying there is racism involved in any way shape or form!



Join us. We're a lot more sensible and we need more people independent of the ... well, monolithic... two-party roadblock.

Though I have to say I'm impressed with Obama anyway. He could potentially restore a lot of faith in the Democrats. Not that they need it, since they'll get about half the nation anyway, just like the Reps.


More stellar point-missing there, ace.

The sad fact is that most people america don't care about innocent lives unless they are american lives, and even then don't care that much unless they are the lives of people they know.

I dont see how you misunderstood this before, so I'll be very careful in spelling it out this time.

1) It would be nice if people appreciated the dignity of all human beings, that war is terrible, etc etc, but they dont.

2) As a consequence of this, the best way to get people to think critically about the cost of war in human suffering is probably to force them and people they know to take part in any war they let be waged.

The only time I would accept a draft would be if we were being invaded. Otherwise I would see it as one of the worst transgressions the government could make.

If you feel that way, move to a different country. By choosing to live in the US, you owe something to the country. Freedom isn't free -- you need to fight for it in order to perpetuate it.

What's the point of dying for a cause? You can't enjoy the cause if you're dead, you know. If other people are irrational enough to give up their lives for a cause, so be it. I'm not going to (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11754697&postcount=536)-- I'm not completely bonkers.
Speaking of completely bonkers...... :p

Well, I'd fix the draft by sealing the windows with plastic during the winter months.

ROFLMAO

a democrat rep. is trying to bring it back.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/19/rangel.draft.ap/index.html

i believe this is political suicide and if it goes through with the house majority being democrats this is not only suicide for the individuals but also for the party.

Oh its much worse then that. DOD has been quietly trying to get the Selective Service and other elements of the Draft that we have in this country eliminated.

Because they are inefficent to do their job.

As for putting a draft into place now we'd have to address some issues.

#1) The Draft is and has almost always been to sore up the US army

the Army has a very hard time getting recruits.

#2) We are in every branch but the Army easily getting recruits. And the Army has been getting recruits...

So We'd have to be putting a lot more people into uniform to make the draft economically worth it

#3) We barely can train who we have now

People who make it out of basic (which is less then 50% of the people who go into basic) often have to wait for a long time to get their duty assignment training because we don't have enough room for them.

So.... We don't have enough space to train people, this would mean we would have to build new training vacilities and we would have to hire new people to train them

the cost on that is in the 10s if not 100s of billions of dollars

#4) Rangel's reason is just wrong.

Most black and poor people aren't in combat duty assignments. Most groups in the US (except the very top and very bottom) join at equal to or greater then their percentage in the regular populations.

To costly
we'd need a massive increase in the size of the military
and it doesn't address any real social need

and this doesn't get into the issues we found with draft soldiers in Nam and Korea (WWII was a tad different)

Drafted soldiers are not as efficent, and are more likely to be the folks who get into drugs and abuse of soldiers then career people.

So its just a Bad idea almost every way you can imagine

I feel that it is inevitable that eventually the draft will someday be reinstated.

The War on Terror (Not the Iraq War) is and will be a very long fought war for many years to come.

It was just the matter of time before the draft came back.

Not only is the Democrat Charlie Rangel pursuing the draft he is also proposing to raise the age from 18-42 yrs old instead of the past 18-26 yrs old.

#1) The Draft is and has almost always been to sore up the US army
I imagine the troops get a little "sore" going into Iraq? Mission Accomplished. :p

More stellar point-missing there, ace.

The sad fact is that most people america don't care about innocent lives unless they are american lives, and even then don't care that much unless they are the lives of people they know.

I dont see how you misunderstood this before, so I'll be very careful in spelling it out this time.

Oh, I understood this. I also understood that getting people to care about innocent non-Americans would be an easier, and more morally righteous, act than simply killing Americans so "only Americans count" bigotry would be overridden.

That's also why I mentioned education.

Point missing? Not on my part... maybe someone else here.


1) It would be nice if people appreciated the dignity of all human beings, that war is terrible, etc etc, but they dont.

That's funny. I appreciate it and believe that.

I must be an impossibility. Other humans must be entirely incapable on a genetic level of achieving my enlightened state. Therefore the only solution is to kill Americans! Yes! And force them to join the military!

This is starting to look like, by "people" you mean YOU.

2) As a consequence of this, the best way to get people to think critically about the cost of war in human suffering is probably to force them and people they know to take part in any war they let be waged.

This is sort of like saying as a consquence of this, the best way to get people to think critically about the cost of rape in human suffering is to forcibly fuck them and people they know in the asshole.

I wholeheartedly support Rep. Rangel's well-thought and meaning decision. All those who are able to serve at age 18 should serve at least 2 years.

I believe that men should have to do 18 Months in the military after Highschool. My reasoning for this is that it would take away the attitude that most young people display.


And by the way, if it were to pass right now, I, a 16 year old, would not complain.

I believe that men should have to do 18 Months in the military after Highschool. My reasoning for this is that it would take away the attitude that most young people display.


And by the way, if it were to pass right now, I, a 16 year old, would not complain.

And what attitude might this be?

I believe that men should have to do 18 Months in the military after Highschool. My reasoning for this is that it would take away the attitude that most young people display.


And by the way, if it were to pass right now, I, a 16 year old, would not complain.

Where as I am glad such a thing was NOT forced on me ... allowed me to move ahead and finish two masters degrees by the time I was 23. Actually contributing to my fullest extent. My brain is much more of an asset then my presence would have been.

Secondly, just about every military man I've ever heard talk about the draft thinks it's a terrible idea.

This military man doesn't think it's terrible -- but that's only because I don't give a shit either way.

YES! I agree completely! Finally, he says something smart! *thumbs up*
.

Well, accept for the Iraq part. A draft would probably be the most detrimental thing we could do. Send a bunch of low-trained, new recruits, with delusions of grandeur and glory and honor into a country of people whom they are being forcefed the idea that they are fighting a bunch of desert rats? Oh hell yeah. Great idea.

However, as far as discipline and such, yep.

At the very least I feel that ROTC should be a manditory class in high school.
I support a draft but not sending green kids into combat but those green kids could certainly help out in situations like New Orleans after Katrina.

It's cute that people would think so. but the man requesting the draft is going to get lynched for even thinking about it. yay dems :D

its not for iraq persay though, it is also for the impending duel with NK and Iran.

It's cute that people would think so. but the man requesting the draft is going to get lynched for even thinking about it. yay dems :D

It is actually meant as a deterent for going to war. Rather novel approach, methinks.

OK, let me starrt by saying I oppose the return of the draft. It's unnecessary and will turn a lot of people against the government. No one wants a draft. Sure, a bunch of people who wouldn't be asked to serve themselves might think, "Ah, hell, it'll be good for the kids to learn 'em a little discipline and those I-rackees will get a little of what's coming to 'em," but frankly, those people are a little like those other fuckers who say, "Them gay folks wantin' to get married are all immoral. They're taking away from the sanctity of MY marriage. Ought to take all the gay folks and have 'em all shot. That'll learn 'em."

If we want to require a little bit of service, requiring service on some level (Peace Corps, some fancy community service program, whatever) is not a half-bad idea. The military can be one option. And hell, they can redo the whole education system so kids learn a lot more and finish by the time they're 16. Then they can spend the next two years in a service program. Have them intern at a hospital or build houses for the homeless; I don't care. Something structured that will teach them a little respect for humanity without all the losing limbs and having shit blow up in your face. And while we're at it, we ought to require it for every person who's an American citizen. Except maybe the severely mentally retarded or the ones who need 24-hour care. But everyone ought to be able to do something.

There is only one instance in which I would go to war, especially under the current administration. The only way I would go to war is to keep a loved one from having to go, particularly if they tried to draft my brother. I'd rather have a grenade blow up in my face and kill me than have it done to him and know that I could have prevented it. However, I am 24 years old and have terrible eyesight that might keep me out of the military anyway, so that might not work.

Citizen of the us and its not a good idea

I imagine the troops get a little "sore" going into Iraq? Mission Accomplished. :p

LOL

I forgot my H

Shore up.

The army has serious recruiting deficencies which is why most folks in the draft go to the army.

Fix the army and the need for a draft goes even further away

At the very least I feel that ROTC should be a manditory class in high school.
I support a draft but not sending green kids into combat but those green kids could certainly help out in situations like New Orleans after Katrina.

Ehhh I am glad I did not waste my time with that ... would have put me behind schedule or potentially changed the course of my whole life. Who knows if I would have found the career I love nearly as quickly without having the time to devote to both my studies and spending some time in college.

My brain is worth way more this way then the way I might have become wasting my time

Ehhh I am glad I did not waste my time with that ... would have put me behind schedule or potentially changed the course of my whole life. Who knows if I would have found the career I love nearly as quickly without having the time to devote to both my studies and spending some time in college.

My brain is worth way more this way then the way I might have become wasting my time


Which is another reason the draft is so contrary to American values

you can be a good actor and try to do whats best for yourself.... unless you value service to your country

The current doctrine tactics and equipment of the US military are not suited to a Draft.
The people clamoring for it are complete assholes with a political message.

A draftee in this current generation would be cannon fodder. The cost to train and equip each draftee would cause the US defense budget to double if not triple. This is one of the worse thought out proposals ever put forth by one of the hugest shit for brain idiots in congress.

You going to Draft someone for 6 years ? Because if they can even be trained and Motivated ...they are still going to be in for a while so you can get your moneys worth before they die .

Its the modern day equalivant to pulling a guy off the street and sending him to fight the Germans without a rifle on the Eastern front .

Let the Democrats keep at it.

2008 campaign slogan ALREADY .

" VOTE DEMOCTATIC AND BRING BACK THE DRAFT "

If you know what occams razor is ...they are using it to cut their own throats .

Which is another reason the draft is so contrary to American values

you can be a good actor and try to do whats best for yourself.... unless you value service to your country

I do ... as an independent information security consultant(to the government), none of knowledge of which would have been covered in a basic service. And doubtful I would have found the right combination to fall in this career otherwise.

Like I said more valuable to my society as I am now then I would have been

I feel that the draft is a good idea (Not the age range of 18-42 that Dem. Rangel is proposing/I think it should be between 18-30 or 35 maybe).

I feel that the Democrats were pretty sneaky in that. If Rangel and the other democrats who support him feel that strongly about it, why did they deceive the People? I don't recall the draft being part of anybody's election campaign. The Draft is a very controversial and of utmost importance in regards to the Opinion of the American People. Is this a sign of how the Democrats can be expected to Lead Congress? Only time will tell.

I do ... as an independent information security consultant(to the government), none of knowledge of which would have been covered in a basic service. And doubtful I would have found the right combination to fall in this career otherwise.

Like I said more valuable to my society as I am now then I would have been

Exactlly. Even though you value your country and serving it, you get to choose how you do so. Thats yet another reason to go against the draft

(their really isn't a good reason for it... but if you listen to Rangel he is actually talking about the draft as part of a National Service system)