NationStates Jolt Archive

Australia and New Zealand have sent soldiers and police officers to Tonga to maintain order, at the request of the Tongan government, after violent pro-democracy riots which killed 8 people. (It appears at least 6 of those, possibly all 8, were rioters who accidentally burned themselves alive while setting fire to a building.)

Your thoughts? Would this have happened if King Tupou IV hadn't died? Was his death the spark for change? I hadn't expected riots; I'd always assumed there would be a slow, calm transition to democracy, following the beginning of democratisation a few months ago.

For those who have no idea what I'm talking about:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5412008.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6153238.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6158720.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6156878.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6160552.stm (most recent)

BUMP, in case anyone is even remotely interested.

Not surprising that people would want the changes to occur NOW and not slowly over time. If this new king truly wanted reforms he'd hurry up and hold elections and not wait.

Other then that I can only go with the articles with the situation, not exactly familiar with Tongan politics. :p

Not surprising that people would want the changes to occur NOW and not slowly over time. If this new king truly wanted reforms he'd hurry up and hold elections and not wait.

Other then that I can only go with the articles with the situation, not exactly familiar with Tongan politics. :p

I'm no expert myself, although I try to keep up with what's going on there.

Apparently they're going to get democracy; the riots have jolted the government into action:


Tapueluelu reported that the rioting and burning continued after the Government held an urgent Cabinet meeting and agreed to the people's demands that 21 MPs be elected democratically by 2008.

At present just nine of the 32 MPs are elected by popular vote. The rest are appointed by the King.

It appeared many of the rioters were not aware the Government had apparently acceded to their demands - because their leaders were not able to communicate with them as the kingdom's AM radio station was off the air.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10411218

Wow. And Tonga itself has only 100,000 people, the city I live in has 120,000. So having 8 deaths is tragic.

However, if democracy comes quicker to Tonga because of this action good for them.

I'm no expert myself, although I try to keep up with what's going on there.

Apparently they're going to get democracy; the riots have jolted the government into action:

I feel that the government would be better off having the new elections earlier then '08. People want changes now and waiting is not going to help themselves keep the people calm. Especially if they choose to use their basically autocratic powers in any way that could be seen as oppressive in the meantime.

Wow. And Tonga itself has only 100,000 people, the city I live in has 120,000. So having 8 deaths is tragic.

However, if democracy comes quicker to Tonga because of this action good for them.

It does appear to have prodded the government into action. But the question is whether democratisation would have happened anyway. With Tupou IV dead, with the country's first ever commoner Prime Minister (since a few months ago), and with growing pro-democracy pressure from the people, change would probably have been inevitable in the long run. Tonga is the only non-democratic sovereign country in the South Pacific (leaving aside Fiji's sometimes shaky record); it couldn't remain that way indefinitely.

Incidentally, New Zealand has condemned the riots as being, amongst other things, damaging to the cause of democracy in Tonga. Basically because the pro-democracy movement is now seen as associated with a bunch of thugs who went around smashing things (including targeting the country's Chinese community).


I feel that the government would be better off having the new elections earlier then '08. People want changes now and waiting is not going to help themselves keep the people calm. Especially if they choose to use their basically autocratic powers in any way that could be seen as oppressive in the meantime.

A government promise for speedy elections would probably calm things down, yes. But I wonder whether they'll be willing to bow down to violent riots. There's also the question of whether or not the idea of democracy has large support among the people. From what I understand it does, but Tongans in general also appeared to be fond of their autocratic old King Tupou IV.

Latest news: "Tongan PM speaks of riot 'shame'" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6163544.stm)

The schedule for democratic elections in 2008, hastily decided on after the riots, is maintained. Prime Minister Sevele - the first ever commoner PM - will not be resigning.

Wow. And Tonga itself has only 100,000 people, the city I live in has 120,000. So having 8 deaths is tragic.

However, if democracy comes quicker to Tonga because of this action good for them.
There might be more Tongans living in NZ than in Tonga, i now it is true of Niue and other pacific island nations.

Whilst the former King was in power there were riots, his living wouldn't have stopped them, these protest were meant to be in the name of democracy but it is and was more anarchistic thuggery.

There are 'fears' that China will become involved to protect the 'chinese' living in Tonga, they aren't actually Chinese citizens anymore but they are 'chinese'.

With the Penguin Invasion, Afghanistan, Solomons and New Guinea, the NZDF is streched to breaking point...

There might be more Tongans living in NZ than in Tonga, i now it is true of Niue and other pacific island nations.


It's true of Tokelauans, Cook Islanders (I think) and especially Niueans, because those three are former colonies of New Zealand (Tokelau still is), and their people has unrestricted access to New Zealand. In fact they have New Zealand citizenship at birth. There are also a lot of Samoans in NZ, in great part there too due to Samoa having been an NZ colony.

But there are still more Tongans in Tonga than in NZ, although there's a massive Tongan diaspora (mainly in NZ, Australia and the US).


these protest were meant to be in the name of democracy but it is and was more anarchistic thuggery.

Alas, yes. They're damaging the cause they claim to be fighting for.


There are 'fears' that China will become involved to protect the 'chinese' living in Tonga, they aren't actually Chinese citizens anymore but they are 'chinese'.


Well, given that Chinese-Tongan shops were targetted in the riots, and given what happened to Chinese-Solomon Islanders a few months ago... If I were a Chinese Pacific Islander, I might be getting jittery.


With the Penguin Invasion, Afghanistan, Solomons and New Guinea, the NZDF is streched to breaking point...

The downside of wanting to be a regional power... New Zealand's relation with the South Pacific is quite an interesting one. Since you live there, what's the general feeling in NZ (if any) about NZ's active role in the region?

There are 'fears' that China will become involved to protect the 'chinese' living in Tonga, they aren't actually Chinese citizens anymore but they are 'chinese'.
Well, they are being attacked because they're of Chinese ethnicity.

In these island nations Chinese people often form a sort of economic upper class because they bring money and an entrepreneurial spirit with them. So they always end up being the first ones targeted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4930994.stm) if people feel like destroying stuff.

And considering that China considers the pacific region its backyard anyways and tries to get involved in everything on these islands, I think it would be quite understandable if they wanted to make sure 'Chinese' interests are protected.

So this what, the fifth irrelevant pacific hellhole Australian troops have been sent to in order to protect corrupt governments from their own people. These Tongans better be ready for some massive political and economic interference just like the Solomon Islands if they expect to be viable.

And considering that China considers the pacific region its backyard anyways and tries to get involved in everything on these islands, I think it would be quite understandable if they wanted to make sure 'Chinese' interests are protected.

Many nations consider the Pacific to be their "backyard". ;) Australia and New Zealand are the regional powers, Japan is investing more and more in Pacific economies and providing aid, France is still present through its overseas territories, Britain still provides aid to its former colonies (though less and less so), the US has a large sphere of interest and several colonies in the Micronesian area (plus American Samoa in Polynesian)... China is a relative (but increasingly active) newcomer.

And then of course countries like PNG, Vanuatu and Fiji have also at times felt they have an important regional role to play.

So this what, the fifth irrelevant pacific hellhole Australian troops have been sent to in order to protect corrupt governments from their own people. These Tongans better be ready for some massive political and economic interference just like the Solomon Islands if they expect to be viable.

:rolleyes:

Your ignorance of the Pacific, and of Tonga in particular, is painful to behold.

Latest: "Tonga's King vows more democracy" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6177522.stm)

The government has repeated its promises for democratic elections in 2008, things seem to be calming down, but many Chinese-Tongans are leaving the country.

It's true of Tokelauans, Cook Islanders (I think) and especially Niueans, because those three are former colonies of New Zealand (Tokelau still is), and their people has unrestricted access to New Zealand. In fact they have New Zealand citizenship at birth. There are also a lot of Samoans in NZ, in great part there too due to Samoa having been an NZ colony.

But there are still more Tongans in Tonga than in NZ, although there's a massive Tongan diaspora (mainly in NZ, Australia and the US).



Alas, yes. They're damaging the cause they claim to be fighting for.



Well, given that Chinese-Tongan shops were targetted in the riots, and given what happened to Chinese-Solomon Islanders a few months ago... If I were a Chinese Pacific Islander, I might be getting jittery.



The downside of wanting to be a regional power... New Zealand's relation with the South Pacific is quite an interesting one. Since you live there, what's the general feeling in NZ (if any) about NZ's active role in the region?
I wouldn't say people don't care but it isn't like people are making a fuss about it, yes New Zealand just sent a Platoon to Tonga but we have a greater commitment to Afghanistan.
It isn't as if we have a wealth of Military personel, most units would be lucky to be at 80% establishment!!!

PNG is looking shaky and Fiji could have another Coup, the head of the Fijian Military is currently in New Zealand though.


As for Japans involvment in the Pacific their main interest is earning votes through monetary payouts to the improvished South Pacific, these votes are of course for a reintroduction of unregulated whaling.

Both China and Taiwan also hand out money trying to win favours from the pacific nations.


Someone i know might be going up for the Officers Selection Board in the NZ Army, they aren't in the Army yet, but they might be, they'll pay most if not ll of the University fees and they'll own him for 5 years.