NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06m3h21yXE

Please tell me that this isn't an indication of what is "cool" in england. I know we have a wealth of cultural duds in America...but please england...get rid of this shit for us...

She's an ugly teenage girl version of eminem...

No, what's cool in England is mocking such artists.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=34566143

And bands like them.

No, what's cool in England is mocking such artists.

Ah...good...

I'm somewhat more at ease now...

What's that term? Chavs? Someone add/correct me.

What's that term? Chavs? Someone add/correct me.

She's not a chav, she's grime.



She sucks, but I like the backing track...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06m3h21yXE

Please tell me that this isn't an indication of what is "cool" in england. I know we have a wealth of cultural duds in America...but please england...get rid of this shit for us...

She's an ugly teenage girl version of eminem...

I really wish I hadn't clicked that link :(

She's not a chav, she's grime.

Thanks.

I really wish I hadn't clicked that link :(

Ya...I sound like I'm 80 years old...but I can't believe that passes for music...

I have to be honest, the tune is pretty catchy.

Goddammit... now I can't stop listening to it...

It's wicked hilarious.

And as sucky as most other hip hop.

So that what Halie Mathers will grow up to be like. (Eminem's daughter)

What's that term? Chavs? Someone add/correct me.
A chav is a derogatory term for a poor person who hangs around with their mates wearing tracksuits and Fubu / Burberry hats raised at a 40 or so degree angle.

She's just profiteering grime, yeah.

And as sucky as most other hip hop.

see that's the thing...I can stand if not appreciate a good bit of rap...

but this song just...drives me insane...

see that's the thing...I can stand if not appreciate a good bit of rap...

but this song just...drives me insane...
Yeah, it is a bit piss poor, to be honest.

Rhyming "Fank you" and "Fuck you" is rubbish, really.

A chav is a derogatory term for a poor person who hangs around with their mates wearing tracksuits and Fubu / Burberry hats raised at a 40 or so degree angle.

She's just profiteering grime, yeah.

Thanks, I'm twice enlightened.

Thanks, I'm twice enlightened.
www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk

There you will find info on 'Neds' which is what 'Chavs' are called in Glasgow. Enjoy.

see that's the thing...I can stand if not appreciate a good bit of rap...

"Good" and "rap" are oxymoronic.

"Good" and "rap" are oxymoronic.

Too true. Ufortunately I can see it being a big hit in the USA... :( :headbang:

"Good" and "rap" are oxymoronic.

Your joke doesn't even makes sense. If you look at how I used "good" in the sentence...it would be a synonym of "large" not "high quality."

Your joke doesn't even makes sense. If you look at how I used "good" in the sentence...it would be a synonym of "large" not "high quality."

A large bit of rap? I can't stand even one line...

Your joke doesn't even makes sense.

Alas, it's not a joke. It's simply the truth.

If you look at how I used "good" in the sentence...it would be a synonym of "large" not "high quality."

You should have used a less ambiguous locution, such as "great deal" if you wanted to say "I can stand if not appreciate a lot of the rap that's out there." Not to mention that "large bit of rap" is an awkward construction...

Alas, it's not a joke. It's simply the truth.
Opinion =/= truth.

You should have used a less ambiguous locution, such as "great deal" if you wanted to say "I can stand if not appreciate a lot of the rap that's out there." Not to mention that "large bit of rap" is an awkward construction...
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean no one else does.

A large bit of rap? I can't stand even one line...

...don't make me get the trebuchet.



Rap has always been bad, but some hip hop is pretty decent. Anything out of this decade has pretty much sucked, though...

Rap sucks, anyone can talk fast and have music playing in the background.

I like country, rock, and classical.

anyone can talk fast and have music playing in the background.


It's not talking. Its rhyming. Can you rhyme to a beat yourself?

Rap sucks, anyone can talk fast and have music playing in the background.

I like country, rock, and classical.

Okay, but country sucks, because it's someone talking slow with music in the backround... and 90% of rock sucks... and 90% of classical is truly boring.


Of course, all of these genres have exceptions.
Country has Johnny Cash.
The supergenre of rock has the genres of punk and metal.
Classical has composers like Bach.
And rap has groups like NWA.

Opinion =/= truth.

When it comes to hip hop, the situation is serendipitous enough that my opinion and the truth coincide.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean no one else does.

And just because someone failed to make themselves understood doesn't mean they should not review it.

For a quality treat go to http://www.myspace.com/ladysovereign and check out the cover of Pretty Vacant...

When it comes to hip hop, the situation is serendipitous enough that my opinion and the truth coincide.
In your opinion.


And just because someone failed to make themselves understood doesn't mean they should not review it.
If most people understand something, it doesn't fail to make itself understood.

Those who don't understand it, well, they fail to understand it.

In your opinion.

Sure, honey, if that makes you feel better about the coldness of the truth.

If most people understand something, it doesn't fail to make itself understood.
Those who don't understand it, well, they fail to understand it.

And those who use ambiguous locutions can but not be surprised when they discover they've lost precision and clarity.

i like lady sovereign. i don't know anyone else who does though. but then i have a rather individual and inclusive taste in music.

Sure, honey, if that makes you feel better about the coldness of the truth.
Thanks, babe.


And those who use ambiguous locutions can but not be surprised when they discover they've lost precision and clarity.
He's chatting, not inciting the masses. There is a difference, yanno.

Thanks, babe.

Pas de quoi.

He's chatting, not inciting the masses. There is a difference, yanno.

Only to the lazy.

Alas, it's not a joke. It's simply the truth.

OMG! You figured out his secret identity!http://209.85.48.10/3630/189/emo/Burning.gif

Okay, but country sucks, because it's someone talking slow with music in the backround... and 90% of rock sucks... and 90% of classical is truly boring.


Of course, all of these genres have exceptions.
Country has Johnny Cash.
The supergenre of rock has the genres of punk and metal.
Classical has composers like Bach.
And rap has groups like NWA.

Yea, but the people in other genre usually play their own instruments which takes training and talent to perfect.

Yea, but the people in other genre usually play their own instruments which takes training and talent to perfect.

i'd like to hear the results of you trying to produce a track with dubs, samples and synthesizers. actually, i wouldn't. but you know what i mean.

Pas de quoi.
So, you're going to pester someone about not being understandable, then talk to me in another language? How hypocritical.
OMG! You figured out his secret identity!http://209.85.48.10/3630/189/emo/Burning.gif
When was it was a secret? :confused:
Yea, but the people in other genre usually play their own instruments which takes training and talent to perfect.
...other than drums, most instruments are really easy.
I would know, I played violin for 2 years, and I've played guitar for 3. Bass isn't much harder, and it's often much easier.

I am somewhat of a fan of hers and I have no idea why since usually I would find that type music bad. but for some reason its not that bad.

i'd like to hear the results of you trying to produce a track with dubs, samples and synthesizers. actually, i wouldn't. but you know what i mean.

Umm you lost me at track.

I like her stuff. Especially Sadass Strippa, where she takes the piss out of that moron Jentina.

When was it was a secret? :confused:

Sarcasm.

I like her stuff. Especially Sadass Strippa, where she takes the piss out of that moron Jentina.

wow, you'd have to be the last person i'd consider liking lady sovereign!

Umm you lost me at track.

so, your saying you don't have a clue? sounds about right.

wow, you'd have to be the last person i'd consider liking lady sovereign!
Why?

So, you're going to pester someone about not being understandable, then talk to me in another language? How hypocritical.

There was nothing ambiguous about what I wrote, which was the point earlier. Nice try, though. I do commiserate on your lack of multilingualism.

Why?

dunno really, guess i'm just showing my prejudices. i assumed you were into goth type music which to me would be either cure-esque stuff or maryline manson-esque stuff. both, in my view, diametrically opposite in terms of sound and ethos to lady sovereign. having said that, i like music by the cure, marilyn manson and lady sovereign, but i never really been part of any 'scene' or whatever that might be associated with a particular brand of music. well i was a bit 'indy' for a year or so but only because of a particular pair of jeans and my favourite shoes and my hair 'style' of the time.

Wtf...

dunno really, guess i'm just showing my prejudices. i assumed you were into goth type music which to me would be either cure-esque stuff or maryline manson-esque stuff. both, in my view, diametrically opposite in terms of sound and ethos to lady sovereign. having said that, i like music by the cure, marilyn manson and lady sovereign, but i never really been part of any 'scene' or whatever that might be associated with a particular brand of music. well i was a bit 'indy' for a year or so but only because of a particular pair of jeans and my favourite shoes and my hair 'style' of the time.
Yes, I am devoutly into goth, that is true (but more Tristania or Gothminister than Cure...). However, I keep an open mind -- I like a lot of music, even though it may not be of my preferred genre. Sov is one of the few rappers that can make me laugh -- I am familiar with England and its people, so I understand what she is satirizing. She does it rather well too. :) Her ethos is another thing... Just a mere parody of the chavs.

I think the video is funny and the tune is catchy.

It's not great at anything, but I like it.

There was nothing ambiguous about what I wrote, which was the point earlier. Nice try, though. I do commiserate on your lack of multilingualism.

I was wondering when we were going to get to personal attacks...

Sarcasm
...you lost me.

...you lost me.

Instead of just leaving it as Fassigen when he quoted, he changed it to Fass, in all capital letters, to highlight his discovery. It also is a quite subtle attack at the character of Fass.

Instead of just leaving it as Fassigen when he quoted, he changed it to Fass, in all capital letters, to highlight his discovery. It also is a quite subtle attack at the character of Fass.

I've character? News to me. An attack, though? How, pray tell!

Yes, I am devoutly into goth, that is true (but more Tristania or Gothminister than Cure...). However, I keep an open mind -- I like a lot of music, even though it may not be of my preferred genre. Sov is one of the few rappers that can make me laugh -- I am familiar with England and its people, so I understand what she is satirizing. She does it rather well too. :) Her ethos is another thing... Just a mere parody of the chavs.

cool :) . i always just assume that everyone else only likes one kind of music. but i think that might only be true of a lot of younger people and some die-hards.

yeh, i like lady sovereign for her humour mainly too. i also like her delivery, i think she might be the sort of person who could make me laugh whatever she was saying just because i can imagine she'd be a very forward and opinionated kind of person with something to say (loudly and quickly and in 'patois') about anything. i like those sort of people.

I was wondering when we were going to get to personal attacks...

An apparent truth is not an attack. I do commiserate. It must be awful and frustrating.

Instead of just leaving it as Fassigen when he quoted, he changed it to Fass, in all capital letters, to highlight his discovery. It also is a quite subtle attack at the character of Fass.

...why are you referring to me in the third person?
Anyways, it's like that because I didn't press the quote button, and I typed the tags out by hand. I didn't bother writing out Fassigen, and my pinkie jammed down on the shift key.
I'm sorry that I don't seek perfection in things that aren't all that important. Jeez.

An apparent truth is not an attack. I do commiserate. It must be awful and frustrating.
:rolleyes:

cool :) . i always just assume that everyone else only likes one kind of music. but i think that might only be true of a lot of younger people and some die-hards.
To be honest, people who just listen to one kind of music and denigrate all others (and I especially have in mind most "alternative individuals") irritate me, and momentariously make me lose any interest. Dogmatism of that sort is tiring.

yeh, i like lady sovereign for her humour mainly too. i also like her delivery, i think she might be the sort of person who could make me laugh whatever she was saying just because i can imagine she'd be a very forward and opinionated kind of person with something to say (loudly and quickly and in 'patois') about anything. i like those sort of people.
Her facial expressions are also rather hilarious in her videos. :) If you've heard Sadass Strippa, I love how she twists every word Jentina uses into something nasty. And another thing, she lacks pretense, which endears her to me more than self-important pseudo-artists.

To be honest, people who just listen to one kind of music and denigrate all others (and I especially have in mind most "alternative individuals") irritate me, and momentariously make me lose any interest. Dogmatism of that sort is tiring.
i agree wholeheartedly. i tend to refrain from talking with people about music for this very reason. well until a couple of years ago when i started meeting real people anyway.


Her facial expressions are also rather hilarious in her videos. :) If you've heard Sadass Strippa, I love how she twists every word Jentina uses into something nasty. And another thing, she lacks pretense, which endears her to me more than self-important pseudo-artists.

that's the thing i was trying to think of why i'd like her if i met her. she does totally lack pretense. you can tell she's just having a laugh and she'll just carry on doing her thing whatever the popular reaction.

i've not seen any of her videos apart from that one but i guess i will now that i have cable. haven't heard sadass stripper in a while but i think i remember what you mean.

Actually, I regard Lady Soverign somewhat high, at least compared to other rappers. At least she's somewhat original.

i agree wholeheartedly. i tend to refrain from talking with people about music for this very reason. well until a couple of years ago when i started meeting real people anyway.
My brother is that way -- a self-ordained expert on music, even though his only in his mid-teens. I enjoy music as a means of relaxation (or alternatively, stimulation), not the intellectual masturbation some people seem to get out of it.

that's the thing i was trying to think of why i'd like her if i met her. she does totally lack pretense. you can tell she's just having a laugh and she'll just carry on doing her thing whatever the popular reaction.
Well, truth be told, I haven't got a problem with pretense when it's meritted, but a lack thereof can be refreshing. I'd rather talk to an actual individual for once rather than just their facade.

Actually, I regard Lady Soverign somewhat high, at least compared to other rappers. At least she's somewhat original.
Definitely. And if you're English, the themes are more pertinent than hearing some whigger rap about how horrible his life was in the ghetto, even though he grew up in a mansion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06m3h21yXE

Please tell me that this isn't an indication of what is "cool" in england. I know we have a wealth of cultural duds in America...but please england...get rid of this shit for us...

She's an ugly teenage girl version of eminem...
Holy hell, she's HOT!!! :fluffle:

She single? :D

For rap, this is sort of delightfully playful and self depricating.

i for one do not mind 'lady sovereign' and think she is quite darling and would be happy if she were to become popular

which said, I have a strong weakness for female band fronts

yeah yeah yeahs are probably my favorite band, I also like rainer maria and dont mind controller.controller

Original in that I, for one, have not seen this sort of rap/grime/chav combination done before; it is perhaps somewhat amusing as it pokes fun at chavs and everyone else alike; but elected representative of England's 'cool' culture? I would doubt it, but since 'cool' is in the mind of the beholder I guess it would depend on who you ask. At any rate, it's certainly not worth bearing arms or crosses over, right? :)

...why are you referring to me in the third person?
Anyways, it's like that because I didn't press the quote button, and I typed the tags out by hand. I didn't bother writing out Fassigen, and my pinkie jammed down on the shift key.
I'm sorry that I don't seek perfection in things that aren't all that important. Jeez.

I could remember that you said it, and I accept your apology. Try not to let this happen again.

Ah i know of this Crack whore.
Just Chavtastic.

Missing the point. It's been touched on above but what she's doing is incredible:

A) she's representing a part of London in the States that you lot would never have heard of otherwise and she's not changing herself for anyone.

B) She isn't talking about how great she is and how much bling she wears or how much cock she sucked last night.

I love hip-hop. Not the commercial, trashy 50 cent bollocks, but the Eighties educated stuff like De la Soul/Public Enemy/Krs One OR the new UK stuff that would go right over any American or rural English persons head 'cause it's about growing up on council estates with no money or education, parents with drug problems and genuine people saying it's not good to live in the ghetto, be yourself, work hard and try and get out...listen to her damn lyrics...

If you like/hate/don't get this then try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSlYcDZYbw&mode=related&search=

Big up sov. safe.

B) She isn't talking about how great she is and how much bling she wears or how much cock she sucked last night.
So true. :D

Big up sov. safe.
Excellent post. :)

Original in that I, for one, have not seen this sort of rap/grime/chav combination done before; it is perhaps somewhat amusing as it pokes fun at chavs and everyone else alike; but elected representative of England's 'cool' culture? I would doubt it, but since 'cool' is in the mind of the beholder I guess it would depend on who you ask. At any rate, it's certainly not worth bearing arms or crosses over, right? :)

Cartoon Network has been trying to get her more recognition over here in America. She's a main piece of the "chocolate swim" album they put out.

1- i like the song
2- shes got a hot accent

I can't say I would buy her music, but "9 to 5" is fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeX4Jg8zH7c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06m3h21yXE

Please tell me that this isn't an indication of what is "cool" in england. I know we have a wealth of cultural duds in America...but please england...get rid of this shit for us...

She's an ugly teenage girl version of eminem...

Reast of the World - Meet Chavs

They're sort of like the English verion of Trailer Trash... but less classy and with lower aspirations.

The British government has been running a breeding program for this social strata by making single teenage 'motherhood' the most economically viable career for young girls from poor backgrounds who drop out of school.

dunno really, guess i'm just showing my prejudices. i assumed you were into goth type music which to me would be either cure-esque stuff or maryline manson-esque stuff. both, in my view, diametrically opposite in terms of sound and ethos to lady sovereign. having said that, i like music by the cure, marilyn manson and lady sovereign, but i never really been part of any 'scene' or whatever that might be associated with a particular brand of music. well i was a bit 'indy' for a year or so but only because of a particular pair of jeans and my favourite shoes and my hair 'style' of the time.

The funny thing is - you could be describing me here.

My playlist heavily features both The Cure and Manson... and Bauhaus, Ministry, Sisters of Mercy, Covenant, VNV Nation, Velvet Acid Christ...

Goth and Industrial are pretty heavy faves - from the Trad Goth, through Uber, Darkwave and Cyber to full on Industrial.

But I, also, quite like Sov... and (other Grime artists, like) Dizzie Rascal, Wiley, Ms Dynamite.

If you are willing to look, you can probably find something you like in just about any musical 'genre'.

The name sounds vaguely familiar, but I think this is the first I've heard of this Soveriegn person.

Reast of the World - Meet Chavs

They're sort of like the English verion of Trailer Trash... but less classy and with lower aspirations.

The British government has been running a breeding program for this social strata by making single teenage 'motherhood' the most economically viable career for young girls from poor backgrounds who drop out of school.


And you, my friend, are a Daily Mail or Sun reader who is as blind as can be. One of the most bizarre arguments to ever come up against the welfare state is this one about teenage single mums getting pregnant just so they can get a council flat and better benefits...think about this argument for just a second...are you saying that if we took away single mum benefits then there would be no more 'chavs' or poor people having kids young?

You're a classist, egoistical type of chap/chapette aren't you, wot wot?

And you, my friend, are a Daily Mail or Sun reader who is as blind as can be. One of the most bizarre arguments to ever come up against the welfare state is this one about teenage single mums getting pregnant just so they can get a council flat and better benefits...think about this argument for just a second...are you saying that if we took away single mum benefits then there would be no more 'chavs' or poor people having kids young?

You're a classist, egoistical type of chap/chapette aren't you, wot wot?

Seriously?

If a girls options are (or she thinks they are):

1. A minimum wage job where she loses a chunk to taxes (not much... but alot when you get paid shit to start with) and then loses almost all the rest to food and rent for a shitty bedsit in a shitty part of town, working 40-60 hours a week to living a hand-to-mouth existance from paycheck to paycheck.

2. Have a baby and get given a house, get benefits, still lead a fairly hand-to-mouth existance but you don't work. Have another sprog or two and get a bigger house.

Then she would be almost crazy to go for Option 1.

Growing up in one of the crapper areas of London a fair few of the girls in my year choose this path - and were pretty open about it "Yeah! I get a house, and benefits innit"/"well - i'm at the top of the waiting list for a council flat now (7months pregnant)" (to paraphrase). Compare them to the girls who went into working in shit dead end jobs and you'll see they are economically much better off.

Single motherhood is a very sensible career choice for a girl from a poor background who doesn't (or believes they don't) have good career prospects.

This idea that you cannot critizise the Welfare State because if you do you are automatically a daily rag reading bigot displays a far bigger bigotry than any that could possibly be read into a very basic statement on economics and people being motivated by what benefits them.

*snip*

Do you seriously believe taking away those things would make a notable decrease in pregnancies to single moms? Soon as you pull something like that, you prove the statistics that it is really only like 2% of people abusing the system.

Seriously?

If a girls options are (or she thinks they are):

1. A minimum wage job where she loses a chunk to taxes (not much... but alot when you get paid shit to start with) and then loses almost all the rest to food and rent for a shitty bedsit in a shitty part of town, working 40-60 hours a week to living a hand-to-mouth existance from paycheck to paycheck.

2. Have a baby and get given a house, get benefits, still lead a fairly hand-to-mouth existance but you don't work. Have another sprog or two and get a bigger house.

Then she would be almost crazy to go for Option 1.

Growing up in one of the crapper areas of London a fair few of the girls in my year choose this path - and were pretty open about it "Yeah! I get a house, and benefits innit"/"well - i'm at the top of the waiting list for a council flat now (7months pregnant)" (to paraphrase). Compare them to the girls who went into working in shit dead end jobs and you'll see they are economically much better off.

Single motherhood is a very sensible career choice for a girl from a poor background who doesn't (or believes they don't) have good career prospects.

This idea that you cannot critizise the Welfare State because if you do you are automatically a daily rag reading bigot displays a far bigger bigotry than any that could possibly be read into a very basic statement on economics and people being motivated by what benefits them.

Both the options you give are right: for a girl coming from an unsupportive, working-class, broke as hell family background that is all that is available to them.

I apologise for being rude, however, the reason that you come across as a daily rag bigot (and therefore the reason for my bigoted remark) was, firstly, the disdainful tone with which you referred to chavs.

Secondly, I still think you're being glib. Take away their welfare and they stop having kids? We can all recognise that these girls shouldn't be in the above situation I'm sure. However, where you talk about the government 'breeding' chavs by giving these girls council flats; I talk about the need for better quality of education and a need for equality of opportunity. Anyone and everyone should be able to have some form of tertiary education, regardless of background and the fact that these girls are (which I don't believe is the majority reason for them having the kids) having kids to be economically better off shows me that there is something wrong at a fundamental level:

You may not be a daily rag reader but that kind of rhetoric about welfare doesn't benefit (haha) anyone.

Do you seriously believe taking away those things would make a notable decrease in pregnancies to single moms? Soon as you pull something like that, you prove the statistics that it is really only like 2% of people abusing the system.

Well - there has been a huge increase in the numbers of single mums since the welfare state really took off...

I don't hold it against the girls who do this - really all they are doing is acting well within the law and to their own best interests.

What I do have is a grudge against a system that makes unemployed single motherhood a much better career choice than low-skilled employment.

Well - there has been a huge increase in the numbers of single mums since the welfare state really took off...

I don't hold it against the girls who do this - really all they are doing is acting well within the law and to their own best interests.

What I do have is a grudge against a system that makes unemployed single motherhood a much better career choice than low-skilled employment.

I think your assuming an awful lot when you assert that the welfare state is the reason more young girls are getting pregnant. Correlation =/= Causation.

Not to my taste, but I suppose I can see the point to it.

I haven't got a lot of use for the feigned stupidity and celebration of artistic ignorance that "Urban Culture" has built, but she seems to be making a valueble-ish point.

I don't trust her, of course. She's another pop artist who depends on the money from the labels to support her, so she's a big money mouthpeice, but I suppose that trying to have a point is better than selling out point-blank.

Both the options you give are right: for a girl coming from an unsupportive, working-class, broke as hell family background that is all that is available to them.
And there is no shortage of girls coming from such backgrounds. What portion of council-house single mums are from that background as opposed to more wealthy backgrounds?


I apologise for being rude, however, the reason that you come across as a daily rag bigot (and therefore the reason for my bigoted remark) was, firstly, the disdainful tone with which you referred to chavs.
I don't have ANYTHING at all against working class backgrounds or people on low incomes - hell - my old man cleaned toilets for a living. Try going to a university where 60% of the kids in your class went to the most expensive private schools in the country when you come from that background...
My objection with Chavs is NOT that they are Working class or Poor but that they have an inherent connection wiht crime and a lack of respect for society. Now - where you live Chavs might be polite, respectful, law abiding citizens. If so - then you have a very different sort of Chav to the ones I have in my area.


Secondly, I still think you're being glib. Take away their welfare and they stop having kids? We can all recognise that these girls shouldn't be in the above situation I'm sure. However, where you talk about the government 'breeding' chavs by giving these girls council flats; I talk about the need for better quality of education and a need for equality of opportunity. Anyone and everyone should be able to have some form of tertiary education, regardless of background and the fact that these girls are (which I don't believe is the majority reason for them having the kids) having kids to be economically better off shows me that there is something wrong at a fundamental level:

You may not be a daily rag reader but that kind of rhetoric about welfare doesn't benefit (haha) anyone.
I was being a bit glib - BUT I think the incentive of making Employment more economical than Breeding would probably encourage many more girls to choose a path of gainful employment rather than living off the governemnt.

However your response on education and oppertunity raise another objection I have with Chav culture:

I went to one of the better state schools in my area - sending about 10% of the 6th Form to Oxbridge and about 20% of the 6th form went into Law and Medicine - nopt bad for a free school. I think it would be VERY hard to argue that such a school did not provide it's students with a good education and access to oppertunities. And yet so many girls dropped out during GCSEs to have babies and live in council flats on benefits - they had access to a first class education and turned it down. Chav culture is not about not having access to opportunities, but being of the mindset that you should not make use of them.

I came from the same (or poorer) background as any of the girls who dropped out to have babies on the state, but was raised with an attitude that I should work hard, study hard, and have ambition. They on he other hand displayed behavior that indicates they were raised to work as little as possible, and sponge where possible. Such an attitude is where I have my objections to Chavness.

I think your assuming an awful lot when you assert that the welfare state is the reason more young girls are getting pregnant. Correlation =/= Causation.

I'm seeing a very good reason why young girls might choose having kids rather than going into employment, and seeing that girls are going into living off the state. I agree that connecting two sets of numbers does not imply causation, but in this case there is a very sensible, very sound economical reason why girls might choose such a path.

What reason do you have for the number of girls choosing this path?

I'm seeing a very good reason why young girls might choose having kids rather than going into employment, and seeing that girls are going into living off the state. I agree that connecting two sets of numbers does not imply causation, but in this case there is a very sensible, very sound economical reason why girls might choose such a path.

What reason do you have for the number of girls choosing this path?

Girls have always had sex, just like boys have. Children are often the result. Rather than letting them die in the gutter, a caring society protects them.

Of course, I also knew people that had kids PURELY to work the system. One guy I worked with on a call centre 'retired' after his thirteenth child was born, because he 'made' better money not working.

But, I think that's exceptional - I think SOME people always screw every system... but a lot of people are not habitual criminals. They are just people.