NationStates Jolt Archive

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. The fuck??? How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him, you fucking assholes?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost fucking 6 am and I really should go to bed and really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. The fuck??? How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him, you fucking assholes?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost fucking 6 and I really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.
I'd have stepped in immediately and kicked the bloody FUCK out of all of those campus police officers. Fuck 'em all if they're going to pull that kind of ridiculous shit.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. The fuck??? How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him, you fucking assholes?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost fucking 6 and I really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.
Damn Jolt for taking so long...I was literally just posting this.

I could possibly...maybe...accept the first tasering as being legit, if the story is as the police tell it. But I doubt that it is exactly that.

All of the ones past that? Fuck. No. Way too far. Without a single doubt in my mind. By the end, the kid looked unconscious...he was crying so hard I doubt he could breathe well, not to mention probably couldn't control his legs very well at that point (between the taser and hitting the ground as hard as he did a few times, I wouldn't doubt it).

Honestly, I don't know when I would have stood up. I would have definatly have been up in the front demanding they stop...but I don't know how I would actually get involved...most actions you can take are only going to make the situation worse. I would definatly do something, and I'd like to think it would be fast, but I don't know what it would be. They're police officers...they have the power in the situation, and clearly wern't resisiting using it. But I, like you, would have stepped up.

The place I know I would have made my stand would be at the end, where the officer tells the boy to move or get tasered, rather than giving his information (as he is required to). Personally, I would have demanded his badge number. If it took him tasing me, so be it. All the more fuel against the fucker.

ETA: for anyone curious, here is the full youtube link to the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE&eurl=), and an LATimes article about it (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cellcamera16nov16,0,4794591.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines)

Holy shit.

He should have handed over the ID tag. :(

I'm saddened that this happened in my country. It shouldn't happen anywhere.

The link to the "Bruins Nation" webpage yielded this excerpt:

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

"It's a shock that something like this can happen at UCLA," she said. "It was unnecessary what they did."

Yeah, those security guys were paid thugs with an overweening sense of entitlement coupled with other debilitating social flaws. I guess they didn't get the memo about the Police State Mentality falling out of fashion.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to stand up, he should have stood up. Those officers had every right to kick his ass. You shouldn't resist the police.

He should have handed over the ID tag. :(

I know I don't always have mine with me. He was using the library, for fucks sake. The LATimes article says all non-students have to be out of the library by 11 PM for "safety" reasons. That is total bullshit. It is a library.

The rule is stupid, but then, universities are good with stupid rules.

The problem is, it is unclear what exactly happened...did he refuse to show it for no reason? Did he not have it? It seems, according to WYTYG's article, that he was planning on leaving, and was just finishing something up. By the time the cops got there, it seems that he was actually leaving. In which case, it is total bullshit, instead of just being 99% bullshit.

That was a huge excess of force, but that video has far from convinced me that I've heard the entire story. The things he was yelling at first are starting to make me think this was exactly the reaction that he was hoping for. I would like to know exactly what he was doing in that library that would end up in such a scene. Im sure the officers dont just make rounds to check for ID's.

The link to the "Bruins Nation" webpage yielded this excerpt:

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

"It's a shock that something like this can happen at UCLA," she said. "It was unnecessary what they did."

Yeah, those security guys were paid thugs with an overweening sense of entitlement coupled with other debilitating social flaws. I guess they didn't get the memo about the Police State Mentality falling out of fashion.
I seriously doubt they'll be brought to justice, though. The media will praise them for being brave police officers and everyone will love them in the end and villify the student because they're all fucking police worshippers. Normally, I'm on the side of the police in matters, but not this time, shitheads.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to stand up, he should have stood up. Those officers had every right to kick his ass. You shouldn't resist the police.
No, they didn't because we don't live in a Reich, holy or otherwise, of any number.

That was a huge excess of force, but that video has far from convinced me that I've heard the entire story. The things he was yelling at first are starting to make me think this was exactly the reaction that he was hoping for. I would like to know exactly what he was doing in that library that would end up in such a scene. Im sure the officers dont just make rounds to check for ID's.

Read the top article in the op

If the police wish to retain their tools, in order to use them when it is neccessary, then they must begin showing more discretion, and use them only when neccessary. This is not the first abuse of the Taser, and sadly, will not be the last.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to leave, he should have left. Those officers had every right to kick his ass.
The video shows NOTHING of what happened before he was yelling. According to the police, he was being a dick. According to numerous student reports, he was leaving with his backpack, and the cops stopped him then.

If the cops are telling the truth, then maybe...MAYBE...the first taser was justified.

If the students are telling the truth (which I tend to believe...they have no vested interest in lying), then the cops had no right at all.

I know I don't always have mine with me. He was using the library, for fucks sake. The LATimes article says all non-students have to be out of the library by 11 PM for "safety" reasons. That is total bullshit. It is a library.

School library. Private property.

No, they didn't because we don't live in a Reich, holy or otherwise, of any number.

He was intruding upon private property, resisting arrest, and obstructing justice. That deserves a good ass kicking.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. The fuck??? How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him, you fucking assholes?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost fucking 6 am and I really should go to bed and really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.

I have stepped in for a friend ... it is the hardest think you will ever do ... and it sent me and two of the attackers to the hospital but it was worth every second knowing he is still alive

Thoes assholes deserve to rot.

That was a huge excess of force, but that video has far from convinced me that I've heard the entire story. The things he was yelling at first are starting to make me think this was exactly the reaction that he was hoping for. I would like to know exactly what he was doing in that library that would end up in such a scene. Im sure the officers dont just make rounds to check for ID's.

According to a campus police report, the incident began when community service officers, who serve as guards at the library, began their nightly routine of checking to make sure everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there.

No evidence that he was doing anything wrong, that I have seen at this point.

Mind you, these are not part of the LAPD or state police force. These are university campus police, aka rent-a-cops.

Read the top article in the op Read it, the only actual witness accounts are at the very end, and there seems to be no other footage yet. For the time being, that story seems like its probably based upon the opinion of the tasered student alone. Im not saying that amount of force should ever be used, but I want to know conclusively why it was.

Read it, the only actual witness accounts are at the very end, and there seems to be no other footage yet. For the time being, that story seems like its probably based upon the opinion of the tasered student alone. Im not saying that amount of force should ever be used, but I want to know conclusively why it was.

He refused to move. They had every right to tase him repeatedly. He should have gotten the hint after the first tasing.

School library. Private property.

Not necessarily our collage library is a public state repository as well, because it receives funding it has to be accessible to the general public as well through a "Community patron" free access card

Do you know if they have a similar program there? or are you just assuming?

He was intruding upon private property, resisting arrest, and obstructing justice. That deserves a good ass kicking.Nope:
UCLA is owned by the people of California. All 38 million.
Don't believe me? (http://www.ucla.edu/)

If it was in this country, al the police would be suspended and going under serious investigation.

The person did not attack or threaten anyone according to all news that I was able to find.
The person was a student there, giving him right to be there.
The police tazered him multiple times after he informed them he had a medical condition.
The police refused to give anyone their names or badge numbers.


I would have gone at one with a chair to be honest.

Nope:

Don't believe me? (http://www.ucla.edu/)

Ok, he may or may not have been intruding upon private property. He was still resisting arrest and obstructing justice.

And if he had a medical condition, he should have gotten onto his feet and fucking moved, and stopped resisting arrest.

He refused to move. They had every right to tase him repeatedly. He should have gotten the hint after the first tasing.

Its kind of hard to leave after you've been tasered. :rolleyes:

He was intruding upon private property, resisting arrest, and obstructing justice. That deserves a good ass kicking.

Resisting arrest? these were not law enforcement agents?

School library. Private property.

He was intruding upon private property, resisting arrest, and obstructing justice. That deserves a good ass kicking.
Public university, of which he is a student. Public property. Campus police, with no legal power beyond the jurisdiction of the university (read: glorified security guard)
And there is still such a thing as excessive force. Even if the first one or two tasers were okay, it was not okay to threaten other students, or continue to taser the boy.

Read it, the only actual witness accounts are at the very end, and there seems to be no other footage yet. For the time being, that story seems like its probably based upon the opinion of the tasered student alone. Im not saying that amount of force should ever be used, but I want to know conclusively why it was.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cellcamera16nov16,0,4794591.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines

I saw this on Olberman's show on MSNBC, and according to his report, the student was already in the act of exiting the library when he was attacked by the guards. Possibly, they put their hands on him to push him along, and he reacted angrily, so they got medieval on his ass. They should be arrested for aggravated assault, the vicious bastards. If I had a child attending that college, I would think about pulling him or her out and suing UCLA for the tuition, because they are creating an unsafe environment by hiring violent thugs and arming them.

If I had been a student there on the scene, a chair would definitely have gotten thrown at those bastards' heads.

Ok, he may or may not have been intruding upon private property. He was still resisting arrest and obstructing justice.

And if he had a medical condition, he should have gotten onto his feet and fucking moved, and stopped resisting arrest.Have you ever been tasered or are you assuming?

Ok, he may or may not have been intruding upon private property. He was still resisting arrest and obstructing justice.

And if he had a medical condition, he should have gotten onto his feet and fucking moved, and stopped resisting arrest.

By who the campus police? they are not qualified law enforcement in any way shape or form.

How the fuck do you move after being tased?

Its kind of hard to leave after you've been tasered. :rolleyes:

That is NO excuse!

If the police wish to retain their tools, in order to use them when it is neccessary, then they must begin showing more discretion, and use them only when neccessary. This is not the first abuse of the Taser, and sadly, will not be the last.

These were not police using those weapons. They were just campus rent-a-cops.

Have you ever been tasered or are you assuming?

I've never put myself in a position in which to get tasered.

He refused to move. They had every right to tase him repeatedly. He should have gotten the hint after the first tasing.
You've clearly never been tasered. Your legs collapse, and it is quite difficult to stand, even after one. Being tasered twice was enough to make it so I couldn't stand for 10 minutes.

Ok, he may or may not have been intruding upon private property. He was still resisting arrest and obstructing justice.

And if he had a medical condition, he should have gotten onto his feet and fucking moved, and stopped resisting arrest.These were not police officers. They were campus police. Even on a campus such as mine, where the campo are deputized into BPD, they are not "real" officers, and have no arresting power.

These were not police officers. They were campus police. Even on a campus such as mine, where the campo are deputized into BPD, they are not "real" officers, and have no arresting power.

Would it have been any more acceptable to you had they been "real" cops?

I've never put myself in a position in which to get tasered.Then let's wait for someone with experience in being tasered to deliver a proper opinion on how easy it is to get up afterwards and then extrapolate how easy it is if you have a medical condition. Until then, we will err on the side of caution, if need be.

He refused to move. They had every right to tase him repeatedly. He should have gotten the hint after the first tasing.

Once you've been tasered, you don't move. Are you really that ignorant to not be aware of that? It'd be like if someone sliced your arms off with a chainsaw, told you to put your hands up, and beat the shit out of you when you failed to do so.

I see posts saying he should have left if he didn't want to be tasered. What the hell? He was doing studies or something simlar.
You say h e should have started moving after the first tazer shot. Have you tried that? Having recently been in an area where people were tazered, trust me, a fricking Marine wouldn't be able to crawl after being tazered

I think one tazer is exxcesive force when they can do their job safely without it.

They had no right to do that, and I hope they get suitable reprimanded.

Have you ever been tasered or are you assuming?

It is very fucking rare to move after them

Though some do shrug it off, they are in the minority though by far.

Would it have been any more acceptable to you had they been "real" cops?I'm sure they don't call real cops to evict a person without ID who is already leaving the library.

That is NO excuse!Not being able to move is a pretty fucking good reason for not moving. It is pretty similar to asking a paralysed man to move. It just doesn't work.

Would it have been any more acceptable to you had they been "real" cops?If they were real cops, they would have the training to know not to pull bullshit like this.

Had they been real cops, I would be much more trusting about their stories and the first taser or two. However, threatening other students and continuing to taser the boy would still be too far.

It's ok people, take a look at the kid's name:
Mostafa Tabatabainejad
It was just a brown person. For all we know he was probably a terrorist.

The video shows NOTHING of what happened before he was yelling. According to the police, he was being a dick. According to numerous student reports, he was leaving with his backpack, and the cops stopped him then.

If the cops are telling the truth, then maybe...MAYBE...the first taser was justified.

If the students are telling the truth (which I tend to believe...they have no vested interest in lying), then the cops had no right at all.
I watched the video several times on tv. I distinctly heard the student yelling to the men who were attacking him that he was leaving, that he was trying to leave. I heard him screaming in pain and begging them to stop. Then I saw him go limp. Then I saw him get tasered again. Also, according to the MSNBC report, eyewitnesses reported that the student was in the act of walking out of the library when he was attacked. He had been told to leave the library. He was doing so. He was NOT resisting. There's a good argument to be made that the only reason this young man was attacked was because he didn't kiss their asses while complying with their orders. The attack was not justified.

Would it have been any more acceptable to you had they been "real" cops?

No but at least "Resisting arrest" would have meant something ... right now they were doing no such thing

You cant be charged for resisting a citizens arrest (at least as a separate crime) and that is the maximum these campus police could have done.

I know I don't always have mine with me. He was using the library, for fucks sake. The LATimes article says all non-students have to be out of the library by 11 PM for "safety" reasons. That is total bullshit. It is a library.

In defense of such a rule: The UCLA is a target for just about every extremist out there. Seriously, with the exception of Bhuddism, I dont think there is a religion that considers this a swell place.

There's no justification whatsoever for repeatedly tasering someone in a library for failing to show a piece of plastic when asked at random.

it's very tough in this situation for both the police officer and the student. First, I understand when police officers feel threatened or anything like that, they use their instinct to react the quickest way and that was tasering the student. However, if he was in the act of getting up and going, the police actions were unnecessary. It's very hard to analyze this situation because you understand when anyone feels threatened they take action, but then again they have to realize when they're taking the limits too far. However, I disagree with the police officers actions.

Then let's wait for someone with experience in being tasered to deliver a proper opinion on how easy it is to get up afterwards and then extrapolate how easy it is if you have a medical condition. Until then, we will err on the side of caution, if need be.

I have been tasered by friends, with both the civilian version and police grade version.

Even one taser with the civilian version will knock you on your ass. Two of those, as I mentioned before, made it quite difficult to move for a decent amount of time. Standing was out of the question for atleast 5 minutes, and extremely difficult for a good chunk of time.

I have been tasered by friends, with both the civilian version and police grade version.

Even one taser with the civilian version will knock you on your ass. Two of those, as I mentioned before, made it quite difficult to move for a decent amount of time. Standing was out of the question for atleast 5 minutes, and extremely difficult for a good chunk of time.

Yeah I got to watch alex techs police training cause a friend was going through the program. At the end of the year they had the option of either a one on one taze or a group (all linked hands taze) my friend chose the one on one

It hit him so hard he fell backwards and jamed the probes into his back ... had to have them pulled out with a pliers by the EMT's

In defense of such a rule: The UCLA is a target for just about every extremist out there. Seriously, with the exception of Bhuddism, I dont think there is a religion that considers this a swell place.

Every university is, really. you want to keep students safe, protect their dorms.

The only place on my campus that you need a card to get into is the fitrec center (gym area) and dorms. My university is notorious for being one of the most security-minded and having insane policies. Even we don't have something like UCLA.

it's very tough in this situation for both the police officer and the student. First, I understand when police officers feel threatened or anything like that, they use their instinct to react the quickest way and that was tasering the student. However, if he was in the act of getting up and going, the police actions were unnecessary. It's very hard to analyze this situation because you understand when anyone feels threatened they take action, but then again they have to realize when they're taking the limits too far. However, I disagree with the police officers actions.
People, can we please try to get this straight? THESE WERE NOT -- REPEAT, NOT -- POLICE OFFICERS WHO TASERED THIS KID.

I have been tasered by friends, with both the civilian version and police grade version.

Even one taser with the civilian version will knock you on your ass. Two of those, as I mentioned before, made it quite difficult to move for a decent amount of time. Standing was out of the question for atleast 5 minutes, and extremely difficult for a good chunk of time.One by one, 4thHR's arguments crumble.

You've clearly never been tasered. Your legs collapse, and it is quite difficult to stand, even after one. Being tasered twice was enough to make it so I couldn't stand for 10 minutes.

These were not police officers. They were campus police. Even on a campus such as mine, where the campo are deputized into BPD, they are not "real" officers, and have no arresting power.

Out of curiosity, what did you do to get tasered?


The footage showed the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad
Ahah! And there's the reason he was tasered. Racism and ...religious...ism...is now added to the list of crimes those rent-a-cops commited.

Yeah I got to watch alex techs police training cause a friend was going through the program. At the end of the year they had the option of either a one on one taze or a group (all linked hands taze) my friend chose the one on one

It hit him so hard he fell backwards and jamed the probes into his back ... had to have them pulled out with a pliers by the EMT's

that makes me cringe just imagining it. Mine got ripped out as I fell (they got me in the chest, I fell backwards) pulling a decent piece of skin with each.

It was all in good fun, but it is one of those things I never want to have done to me again (atleast, not without good reason)

People, can we please try to get this straight? THESE WERE NOT -- REPEAT, NOT -- POLICE OFFICERS WHO TASERED THIS KID.See the kind of thing that happens when you arm a civilian security guard? This is why I feel the only people who should have weapons are those that absolutely need them, know how to use them effectively, and know when to use them.

Out of curiosity, what did you do to get tasered?


Friends, and my friends father (who is a cop). We were talking about police brutality and self defence and the like, and I said that anyone who ever considers using one should have to experience it. So I let them tase me, with both versions (different days).

I promise you, that if I have a taser in my hand, I will know exactly when you need to use it and when it is inappropriate, because I know exactly how it will feel to the person on the other end.

that makes me cringe just imagining it. Mine got ripped out as I fell (they got me in the chest, I fell backwards) pulling a decent piece of skin with each.

It was all in good fun, but it is one of those things I never want to have done to me again (atleast, not without good reason)

Yeah they were required to take one hit (group or single) to show them what force they would be employing in the field

Friends, and my friends father (who is a cop). We were talking about police brutality and self defence and the like, and I said that anyone who ever considers using one should have to experience it. So I let them tase me, with both versions (different days).

I promise you, that if I have a taser in my hand, I will know exactly when you need to use it and when it is inappropriate, because I know exactly how it will feel to the person on the other end.

Exactly the reason law enforcement (at least at the local places) require the students get tazed

Exactly the reason law enforcement (at least at the local places) require the students get tazed

yeah, same in this area. In order to carry pepper spray and the like, you have to be sprayed in the face too.

Go figure, out of the entire group, I was the only one who doesn't want to be a cop (I only trusted the trained officer to actually do it to me, so he doesn't count). The other guys were all too scared to do it.

Which is why I'm dead set against our police having acquired the damm things. Especially since a couple of weeks before the trial was due to start, one of the trial areas had police caught on film macing a handcuffed man lying face up on the ground, out in full public view without the least concern in the world that there was a tv camera man filming them...

Our police are frankly scummy at the institutional level. In one week two different people came forward to complain that police had used swear words in writing tickets (putting down in occupation 'arsehole' for one person and 'whore' for another). A police spokesperson came on tv smirking his arshole face off while claiming this was a perfectly acceptable way for public servants to fill in official documentation. :mad:

Friends, and my friends father (who is a cop). We were talking about police brutality and self defence and the like, and I said that anyone who ever considers using one should have to experience it. So I let them tase me, with both versions (different days).

I promise you, that if I have a taser in my hand, I will know exactly when you need to use it and when it is inappropriate, because I know exactly how it will feel to the person on the other end.
I emphatically agree. A key component of understanding a weapon is understanding how it feels. Another reason I feel police officers should not be allowed to use guns to subdue citizens, if they are not happy to be shot themselves.

Campus security "police" are dicks. At my uni, they completely fail to prevent or deter any crimes, even ones being committed during the day or ones committed in the same area they are in. They just drive around ticketing people because that is how they obviously get their way too high pay checks. Their cars are better and more pimped out than the city police which they use to sit around in their cars playing solitaire on the built-in laptops when not ticketing people for using visitor parking while having a school parking permit when all the parking lot spaces are full and no mass amount of visitors are expected.

See the kind of thing that happens when you arm a civilian security guard? This is why I feel the only people who should have weapons are those that absolutely need them, know how to use them effectively, and know when to use them.
Agreed. I'd like very much to know who employs these pseudo-cops, and what kind of training and background checks they go through. Knowing the standards of most private security companies, I would not have high hopes.

yeah, same in this area. In order to carry pepper spray and the like, you have to be sprayed in the face too.

Go figure, out of the entire group, I was the only one who doesn't want to be a cop (I only trusted the trained officer to actually do it to me, so he doesn't count). The other guys were all too scared to do it.
...remind me to never enter into police officer training...

As for whether or not trained officials should have these items...let's remember that before they had these, all they had were billy clubs and guns. As irritating and damaging to a person's health these items can be, billy clubs and guns oftentimes prove far more deadly.

Agreed. I'd like very much to know who employs these pseudo-cops, and what kind of training and background checks they go through. Knowing the standards of most private security companies, I would not have high hopes.

Jack shit for on campus

I used to work a night security job at a local nursing home ... they gave us a van and a cell phone and a flashlight ... they told us to call the damn police if we saw anything suspicious

I worked there for 7 years ... probably called the cops 10 times never once cause I was in danger just people prowling the lots to break in

From the article:

"It was the most disgusting and vile act I had ever seen in my life," said David Remesnitsky, a 2006 UCLA alumnus who witnessed the incident.

It sounds to me like he's been somewhat sheltered.

That said, based on the facts, I'd say the conduct of the CSO's was outrageous. I am thankful to have much better CSO's at my university. They know how to handle situations with appropriate force rather than overwhelming force.

Exactly the reason law enforcement (at least at the local places) require the students get tazed
As far as I am concerned it is both common practice, and common sense. Not only for ethical reasons, but practical too. My father is a Physical Training Instructor in the Australian Army. In his core training in Infantry corps he was required to experience the sensation of mustard, and tear gas. Now he runs these tests. It is important that professionals know exactly what to expect from the people they use their equipment upon, as well as what to expect if it is used on them.

Campus security "police" are dicks. At my uni, they completely fail to prevent or deter any crimes, even ones being committed during the day or ones committed in the same area they are in. They just drive around ticketing people because that is how they obviously get their way too high pay checks. Their cars are better and more pimped out than the city police which they use to sit around in their cars playing solitaire when not ticketing people for using visitor parking while having a school parking permit when all the parking lot spaces are full and no mass amount of visitors are expected.I haven't had any problems with the campus police here at UVA, but then again, I'm usually not too drunk to walk and I'm not underage (nor do I engage in any other, more hazardous illegal activities =P ).

See the kind of thing that happens when you arm a civilian security guard? This is why I feel the only people who should have weapons are those that absolutely need them, know how to use them effectively, and know when to use them.

And who the hell is that? The police? I guarentee you they are guilty of far more power abuse than rental cops. The military? Ditto, and perhaps even more so. Government agents? Ditto again. Nothing in politics bothers me quite so much as using an isolated incident as an excuse for sweeping policy change. :headbang:

Agreed. I'd like very much to know who employs these pseudo-cops, and what kind of training and background checks they go through. Knowing the standards of most private security companies, I would not have high hopes.

From what I know of BU and NEU (which could be representative or not), the campus police are hired directly by the schools. They are deputised into the Boston PD, but are still not official officers (in other words, they can write tickets, but can't do any real arrests. Their training is done out-of-house...I think at the same type of training company that does those security guards, only slightly higher level

Agreed. I'd like very much to know who employs these pseudo-cops, and what kind of training and background checks they go through. Knowing the standards of most private security companies, I would not have high hopes.
Well most of the security guards I know are bikies, dishonourably discharged ex-military/ex-cops. Off to a good start...

From the article:



It sounds to me like he's been somewhat sheltered.

To be fair, I think seeing something like that in person would be a bit unsettling, to say the least.

Some cops better get their asses fired and sued over this.

And who the hell is that? The police? I guarentee you they are guilty of far more power abuse than rental cops. The military? Ditto, and perhaps even more so. Government agents? Ditto again. Nothing in politics bothers me quite so much as using an isolated incident as an excuse for sweeping policy change. :headbang: Nice to know, but this is the opinion I have alwas maintained. Search back to the gun control threads of old if you want. I used to get a berating by DK and Eut. I was not saying weapons should only be given to those who will not abuse them. I said weapons should only be given to professionals who need them in their career. Just like a miner is allowed to have c4, and I am not. The abuse of such power is seperate entirely to the provision of it.

Some cops better get their asses fired and sued over this.
Ah Nazz, thank you. I was waiting for you. Anyhow, now I can leave in peace.

To be fair, I think seeing something like that in person would be a bit unsettling, to say the least.

Certainly. But the fact that it's the worst he's seen makes me wonder if he's not rather sheltered. I've seen worse things than that on television, not to mention things I've seen in the streets of various cities. They unsettle me, sure. But something like that is hardly the worst thing I've seen.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just jaded.

There has been some new video posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emEK7t2m35Q) on youtube, this a news report. It looks like it might be a different bit of footage, but I can't really tell

Certainly. But the fact that it's the worst he's seen makes me wonder if he's not rather sheltered. I've seen worse things than that on television, not to mention things I've seen in the streets of various cities.They unsettle me, sure. But something like that is hardly the worst thing I've seen.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just jaded.
No question I've seen much worse on TV...but seeing something in person is different from seeing it on TV. I, personally, was a bit shaken by it because I know exactly what that charge feels like. I'm sure hearing that kinda screaming in person gives a decent idea of what kinda feeling he's recieving from it.

But ofcourse, I'm just playing devils advocate.

Nice to know, but this is the opinion I have alwas maintained. Search back to the gun control threads of old if you want. I used to get a berating by DK and Eut. I was not saying weapons should only be given to those who will not abuse them. I said weapons should only be given to professionals who need them in their career. Just like a miner is allowed to have c4, and I am not. The abuse of such power is seperate entirely to the provision of it.

A decent secondary point that this is likely not the thread for such a discussion. So in direct relation to the rent-a-cops abuse of their weapons I ask you: How are they supposed to deal with any real immediate threat on the campus, thats what they are there for- the police cannot get there quickly or often enough to deal with minor security threats. A taser is far more civilized than the billy-clubs of only a few years ago. How "disarmed" should these guards be?

What saddens me is that, whilst the people around them yelled at the rent-a-cops, they didn't take action. If I got threatened with a tazer for witnessing aggravated assault towards a member of the public, I would do something. And before you all say I wouldn't, I do attend protests, and I have made physical stands against injustice.

No question I've seen much worse on TV...but seeing something in person is different from seeing it on TV. I, personally, was a bit shaken by it because I know exactly what that charge feels like.

Right. I just have a lot of friends who either are or have been police officers, and from their descriptions, can guess that the CSO's were using a very inappropriate level of force.

As to watching in person as opposed to on TV...yes. I assure you, watching in person as a woman got the ever-living shit beat out of her by another woman wielding stiletto heels was far more impactful than seeing a starving child on television.

But ofcourse, I'm just playing devils advocate.

Fair enough. I was too. ;)

Time for me to dispel some myths about campus police.

I don't know about California, but here in South Carolina, campus police are, as they call themselves, "state constables." They are sworn by the Governor and granted statewide arrest powers. Here they carry GUNS.

In practice, they don't actually exercise their arrest powers off campus, but I myself have been arrested once by them on campus. (I was meeting girls at the campus pool and someone's male friend [not BF!] objected and started a row.) I have the record to show for it. Maybe the laws are different in other states, but I'm working with the information I have available to me.

That said, I feel that they went too far on him, and it was probably racially motivated. (i7@/\/1@/\/ /\/\|_|51i/\/\ Z0/\/\9 +37707|5+!!!!!111!!!one!!!11!!!) I was thrown out of a bar, drunk, once without being tasered, just maced in the face once. Probably because I'm white, and so were the cops.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to stand up, he should have stood up. Those officers had every right to kick his ass. You shouldn't resist the police.

I counter this numb-skullery with: everyone around should of beaten the rent-a-cops with chairs until they laid on the ground spasming or dead.

I just watched the piece. I've no problem with the first shot; the guy was already loud and obstreporous. But a Taser is designed as an incapacitation device, NOT a come-along. Once they shot him, they should have cuffed him and carried him out, as they eventually did.

And the fat white cop at the end went WAY overboard threatening a bystander at the end. There's no excuse for this level of incompetence.

I counter this numb-skullery with: everyone around should of beaten the rent-a-cops with chairs until they laid on the ground spasming or dead.We've already torn his arguments apart:
"Private property!"
Nope
"Resisting arrest!"
Nope
"Should have gotten up after being tasered!"
Nope

A nearby neighbour's teenaged son was wrongly implicated in a romantic liaison with the daughter of a local member of our city's police, by the very same daughter of a local member of our city's police - and saw one dawn this last spring his mother's front door bashed in, and with him pinned down naked to his own bed with police boots and truncheons, all the while a semi-vicious police dog held inches from his face - was told by these black-masked home invaders that he was "resisting" them, and applied tasers directly to his scrotum, to his penis shaft and head, as well as to his neck and just over his hairline on his head.

His mother was in the house at the time, and was also threatened, to not interfere - with pepper spray and a taser. There was no actual charge laid that morning; the police left without removing their balaclavas to reveal their faces, without showing anyone their badges or identifying themselves in any way other than to simply say 'police'. Apparently this was some kind of little police star chamber dealing with a supposed 'bad boyfriend' - i.e. someone who got his little angel knocked up - but was, in reality just his daughters' scapegoat.

His mother rushed him afterwards to the hospital where he was seen, his wounds documented, and his shock and trauma were treated. She insisted I look at the photos (and no, I don't have links to them so don't ask) and read the medical report and her son's statement, and it was grim fare, I'll tell you.

He and his mother are taking this to court, and they're pretty confident they've got a solid case against the local police division - and so does their lawyer. It's not just campus cops who abuse their power or authority. Non-lethal weapons just seem make the abuse easier to perpetrate somehow.

That said, I feel that they went too far on him, and it was probably racially motivated. (i7@/\/1@/\/ /\/\|_|51i/\/\ Z0/\/\9 +37707|5+!!!!!111!!!one!!!11!!!) I was thrown out of a bar, drunk, once without being tasered, just maced in the face once. Probably because I'm white, and so were the cops.

Yeah, I caught the name in the second video, as soon as I heard the newsman say it, I just sighed.

We've already torn his arguments apart:
"Private property!"
Nope
"Resisting arrest!"
Nope
"Should have gotten up after being tasered!"
Nope

To be fair, there's nothing stopping you getting up after a Taser shot. I took one in training - I didn't actually fall down (I was leaning against a wall). I was incap for maybe 15-20 seconds, then I gradually regained full mobility - I could have stood up pretty much immediately.

See the kind of thing that happens when you arm a civilian security guard? This is why I feel the only people who should have weapons are those that absolutely need them, know how to use them effectively, and know when to use them.

It is also why most police officers get tasered and pepper maced before they are allowed on the force. When you know the effects of the weapons given, you know how to utilize them correctly, and the effect they have. I highly doubt these security guards had such training, which is evident after they tell him to get up after he has been tasered several times.

He was leaving. If he mouths off to the guards, so what? It's not "resisting arrest" or "trespassing"(which he wasn't, he was a student. May have forgotten his ID at his place, which I have done on a few occasions, and forced to leave the library), but he was still leaving.

Fire the assholes, I say. They have no training, quite obviously, with the weapons they were using, and used them excessively(A tazer can be deadly, especially if used excessively). They took their "power" to the extreme, which they used to highten their own personal image of power.

Man, am I glad that our campus guards are quite a bit more relaxed, and are friendly with students.

To be fair, there's nothing stopping you getting up after a Taser shot. I took one in training - I didn't actually fall down (I was leaning against a wall). I was incap for maybe 15-20 seconds, then I gradually regained full mobility - I could have stood up pretty much immediately.

Ah, but he was tazered repeatedly. And the reaction is different for different people. What the guards should have done, after tazering him(which may or may not have been justified) is just carry him out, not continuously tazer the kid, leaving him all but incapacited and unable to leave.

To be fair, there's nothing stopping you getting up after a Taser shot. I took one in training - I didn't actually fall down (I was leaning against a wall). I was incap for maybe 15-20 seconds, then I gradually regained full mobility - I could have stood up pretty much immediately.According to two other people that have experience with tasers, that's not the case. ;)

Time for me to dispel some myths about campus police.

I don't know about California, but here in South Carolina, campus police are, as they call themselves, "state constables." They are sworn by the Governor and granted statewide arrest powers. Here they carry GUNS.

In practice, they don't actually exercise their arrest powers off campus, but I myself have been arrested once by them on campus. (I was meeting girls at the campus pool and someone's male friend [not BF!] objected and started a row.) I have the record to show for it. Maybe the laws are different in other states, but I'm working with the information I have available to me.

That said, I feel that they went too far on him, and it was probably racially motivated. (i7@/\/1@/\/ /\/\|_|51i/\/\ Z0/\/\9 +37707|5+!!!!!111!!!one!!!11!!!) I was thrown out of a bar, drunk, once without being tasered, just maced in the face once. Probably because I'm white, and so were the cops.
Up here, they aren't real cops, but depudised, so I assume it has to do with location

And I'm not quite ready to throw the race card, but I am willing to admit it is in my hand.

To be fair, there's nothing stopping you getting up after a Taser shot. I took one in training - I didn't actually fall down (I was leaning against a wall). I was incap for maybe 15-20 seconds, then I gradually regained full mobility - I could have stood up pretty much immediately.
my experience with it was quite different from yours. the police grade one had me down for a good ammount of time (set to the common setting)
I also took a total of three shocks, but even after the first one, wasn't about to stand up and go for a walk.

What saddens me is that, whilst the people around them yelled at the rent-a-cops, they didn't take action. If I got threatened with a tazer for witnessing aggravated assault towards a member of the public, I would do something. And before you all say I wouldn't, I do attend protests, and I have made physical stands against injustice.

Heh, a mob of even 5 people could have stopped it. Wouldn't take long before the other got involved, really. However, the fear of being repremanded for assaulting a guard probably would deter most. I would say beat the crap out of them, but call the police, definately, as this was most definately an assault. The video is rather clear. Subduing them probably wouldn't be to bad of an idea. But not beatin gthe shit out of em.

It's ok people, take a look at the kid's name:
Mostafa Tabatabainejad
It was just a brown person. For all we know he was probably a terrorist.

That was the first thing that jumped out at me when I read the article as well...

...would not surprise me at all if that was at least part of the reason for the actions of these Campus officers.

If I had a child attending that college, I would think about pulling him or her out and suing UCLA for the tuition, because they are creating an unsafe environment by hiring violent thugs and arming them.

Bingo.

I hope that UCLA takes a long, HARD look at their hiring and training practices for these security personnel.

School library. Private property.

Don't be a moron, the University of California, Los Angeles, is a Public institution. It belongs to me, my neighbor, and every other citizen of this state.

Plus, he was in the process of leaving.


Edit: I guess some people beat me to it.

I hope that kid can afford a lawyer to sue these people into poverty.

We've already torn his arguments apart:
"Private property!"
Nope
"Resisting arrest!"
Nope
"Should have gotten up after being tasered!"
Nope

I know. ^.^

PS: I hope these pigs wind up sharing a cell with the guy from that Sublime song, you know the one I mean. Date Rape, obviously.

I hope that kid can afford a lawyer to sue these people into poverty.

Might not have to. I'm sure there are many lawyers and other institutions(ACLU, that's the one, right? Or was it another one, I get my acronyms mixed up) whom may represent him on grounds if this were racially motivated, or otherwise. It wouldn't be a difficult case to win, with the video, and several student testimonies, I would think

Jack shit for on campus

I used to work a night security job at a local nursing home ... they gave us a van and a cell phone and a flashlight ... they told us to call the damn police if we saw anything suspicious

I worked there for 7 years ... probably called the cops 10 times never once cause I was in danger just people prowling the lots to break in
That's the usual level of training. Campus security are supposed to be a bit better because they have to deal with more active residents, but they are still not real police and have no authority to arrest, no authority to use deadly force, etc. They are little more than glorified nightwatchmen.

From what I know of BU and NEU (which could be representative or not), the campus police are hired directly by the schools. They are deputised into the Boston PD, but are still not official officers (in other words, they can write tickets, but can't do any real arrests. Their training is done out-of-house...I think at the same type of training company that does those security guards, only slightly higher level
I'm in Boston, too, and the campus cops at Harvard are a notorious joke. They go cruising around in patrol cars but have so little authorization to do anything, most of the time, they're not even allowed to get out of the cars. I've never even seen a campus cop anywhere around MIT. (I walk through Harvard campus all the time to get around Cambridge, and one of my brothers and a couple of friends attend MIT.)

As for the hiring of these jokers -- do you mean the campus security are on the schools' payroll? And what security qualifications do the schools' personnel departments have, we wonder? How trained are they to conduct background checks and to supervise security performance?

Or are the campus cops employees of a security company that contracts with the schools and the local PD? At least some of those companies know how to do a background check and how to train employees for using force. Of course, those tend to be the more expensive companies. The cheaper ones use guys like what GPN describes below.

Well most of the security guards I know are bikies, dishonourably discharged ex-military/ex-cops. Off to a good start...
And the even cheaper companies have been known to hire ex-cons with violent crime records, though those guys aren't supposed to handle weapons.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass.
And so?

He should have left when told to leave.
It certainly would have been ideal. We dont live in an ideal law. But Americans do live in a country of laws, and a country of freedom where law enforcement officers ought to show respect to the people they are the servants of, even when said people are being 'asses'.

When asked to stand up, he should have stood up.
Right, and I should pay my electricity bill on time. When I dont the electricity company will ideally deal with me in an appropriate manner that includes the greatest extent of leniancy they can employ whilst still remaining effective in fufilling their role (ie getting the money owed). The police being public servants owe a greater level of leniancy in getting their job done. Their job was to get the person off the premises. If they could do so peacefully simply by carrying the guy's limp body, then they ought to have done so. Instead they broke the law, assaulted a person, broke further laws by threatening to assault others, and traumatised a large number of innocent library users who were present while worrying the heck out of library users who heard of the event as a result of publicity. If this happened at my school, I'd be frightened to use my own library. These scum illegally threatened the safety and well-being of innocent law abiding citizens, and knowing that would cause me to fear for my safety.

Those officers had every right to kick his ass.
No, the thing about the law is no one has the right to break it, even if someone is being an ass.

You shouldn't resist the police.
Of course you should not. But one person doing what they should not do, does not make breaking the law any less illegal, nor assaulting one person and threatening to assault others (traumatising a large number of innocent by-standers, and making others not present fear for their saftey) any less dispicable and immoral.

I'm in Boston, too, and the campus cops at Harvard are a notorious joke. They go cruising around in patrol cars but have so little authorization to do anything, most of the time, they're not even allowed to get out of the cars. I've never even seen a campus cop anywhere around MIT. (I walk through Harvard campus all the time to get around Cambridge, and one of my brothers and a couple of friends attend MIT.)I've seen tons of MIT cops out at BU because we house most of the MIT frats. They are the biggest joke ever because, as a BU student on BU property, they can't do anything. They really can't even do anything to the frats.

As for the hiring of these jokers -- do you mean the campus security are on the schools' payroll? BU partially has BPD funding, but mostly, yeah. It's on the schools dollar.
And what security qualifications do the schools' personnel departments have, we wonder? How trained are they to conduct background checks and to supervise security performance?'tis a mystery to us.

Or are the campus cops employees of a security company that contracts with the schools and the local PD? At least some of those companies know how to do a background check and how to train employees for using force. Of course, those tend to be the more expensive companies. The cheaper ones use guys like what GPN describes below.Harvard might...I'm really not sure. I think MIT uses a similar system to BU and NEU (paying the cops directly, and having them be a technical extension of BPD)


And the even cheaper companies have been known to hire ex-cons with violent crime records, though those guys aren't supposed to handle weapons.Nothing like a former criminal defending my property.

This reminds me why I'm so glad I moved off campus.

He was intruding upon private property, resisting arrest, and obstructing justice. That deserves a good ass kicking.
I've read both articles, there is no indication in either that he was trespassing, do you have some information that indicates he was?
According to both articles he was not resisting arrest, in which case how was he obstructing justice?

Unless you are privy to info not in the articles, you either have no understanding of the relevent legal aspects or are simply making things up as you go along.

I've seen tons of MIT cops out at BU because we house most of the MIT frats. They are the biggest joke ever because, as a BU student on BU property, they can't do anything. They really can't even do anything to the frats.
Well, there's a workable system. Takes all the brains at BU and MIT and maybe a couple from Harvard to come up with something like that. Jeez-frigging-gawd.

BU partially has BPD funding, but mostly, yeah. It's on the schools dollar.
'tis a mystery to us.

Harvard might...I'm really not sure. I think MIT uses a similar system to BU and NEU (paying the cops directly, and having them be a technical extension of BPD)
And more excellent planning. Btw, that "technical extension" of BPD is why the Harvard cops are so hamstrung. The Harvard campus bleeds into the public streets so extensively that most of it is under direct police jurisdiction -- Cambridge Police Department, in this case. That's why I said the Harvard cops can't even exit their cars much of the time. Maybe that's also why I don't know of any multiple taserings of Boston area students. Maybe the real cops know better than to put weapons in the hands of pretend cops.

Nothing like a former criminal defending my property.

This reminds me why I'm so glad I moved off campus.
:D

If it was in this country, al the police would be suspended and going under serious investigation.

The person did not attack or threaten anyone according to all news that I was able to find.
The person was a student there, giving him right to be there.
The police tazered him multiple times after he informed them he had a medical condition.
The police refused to give anyone their names or badge numbers.


I would have gone at one with a chair to be honest.
Sorry, I dont think that is necessarily so. The police who were caught on video camera macing a handcuffed person lying prone face up (ie his handcuffed hands beneath his body) outside Waitakere Stadium only a couple of weeks before the tazor trials started in New Zealand, have not so far as I know faced any displinary measures whatsoever. Evidently Waitake is one of the tazor trial areas.

You are absolutely correct that the acts at issue are dispicable, but I believe over-complacent if you think the same thing couldnt happen in New Zealand.

Let's not forget New Zealand police happily send smirking spokespersons on tv to explain that it's entirely appropriate for police (as public servants) to fill out important legal documents (summary conviction traffic tickets) with cuss words. Any police force with such a blatant disrespect for the public and the justice system they represent are hardly to be trusted to deal appropriately with misconduct.

Well, there's a workable system. Takes all the brains at BU and MIT and maybe a couple from Harvard to come up with something like that. Jeez-frigging-gawd. Oh yeah...it is a great system. I was at the Pi Lam jello party, walked out, and watched a kid puke on an MIT police car with the cop in it. The cop did nothing but look angry. It was pathetic.


And more excellent planning. Btw, that "technical extension" of BPD is why the Harvard cops are so hamstrung. The Harvard campus bleeds into the public streets so extensively that most of it is under direct police jurisdiction -- Cambridge Police Department, in this case. That's why I said the Harvard cops can't even exit their cars much of the time. Maybe that's also why I don't know of any multiple taserings of Boston area students. Maybe the real cops know better than to put weapons in the hands of pretend cops.
See, that is exactly why I don't get why BU has a PD...We're on comm ave, and integrated with the city. There is no part of our campus that isn't next door to a normal business or residence...we have BPD everywhere...why do we need BUPD? They don't DO anything but harass me as I stumble down the street (I wasn't even drunk...it was icy and I was staking:( )

:D
Mind you, I live in Lower Allston...16th worst place to live in the US...and yet, I trust them more than I trust BUPD to protect me

it's very tough in this situation for both the police officer and the student. First, I understand when police officers feel threatened or anything like that, they use their instinct to react the quickest way and that was tasering the student. However, if he was in the act of getting up and going, the police actions were unnecessary. It's very hard to analyze this situation because you understand when anyone feels threatened they take action, but then again they have to realize when they're taking the limits too far. However, I disagree with the police officers actions.

I have to disagree with your statement about the possibility that the 'officers' felt threatened. I see no way in which someone complying (however truculently or belatedly) with one's requests results in one feeling threatened. Since this was the case when the scum commenced assaulting the student concerned, I do not for a moment believe they felt threatened unless you are referring to their egos being 'threatened' by someone failing to brown tongue them.

If these scum are threatened by someone complying with them, then they ought not be let out in public unescorted. They ought to be safely ensconced in an appropriate care-facility. My elderly grandmother doesnt feel threatened as a result of people complying with her, why ought these people have?

Oh yeah...it is a great system. I was at the Pi Lam jello party, walked out, and watched a kid puke on an MIT police car with the cop in it. The cop did nothing but look angry. It was pathetic.
Lovely.

See, that is exactly why I don't get why BU has a PD...We're on comm ave, and integrated with the city. There is no part of our campus that isn't next door to a normal business or residence...we have BPD everywhere...why do we need BUPD? They don't DO anything but harass me as I stumble down the street (I wasn't even drunk...it was icy and I was staking:( )
Well, obviously, because it's pronounced BUP'D. You gotta have fake cops if you've already got a stupid name for them.

Mind you, I live in Lower Allston...16th worst place to live in the US...and yet, I trust them more than I trust BUPD to protect me
Ah, yes, when you'd rather be surrounded by competent criminals than incompetent coplets. I feel your pain.

Agreed. I'd like very much to know who employs these pseudo-cops, and what kind of training and background checks they go through. Knowing the standards of most private security companies, I would not have high hopes.
Our police took to hiring private security guards to guard prisoners being held in police cells. Turns out that in the case of one guard put in charge of female prisoners, he was a convicted rapist. Nice one. All of the 'guards' deployed by the private firm were in fact unlicensed students in training.

The police (who are in charge of security clearances requested by the public) claimed that they just trusted the security firm to get security clearances (made no independent checks). One wonders if this lax attitude was related to the fact that the owner of the private security firm was an X-copper. Nepotism, dont ya' just love it.

disgusting.

but as many has said, no one taped the beginning so we only have the eyewitness accounts...

so let's try to piece the night together with what we have.

When Tabatabainejad, 23, refused to provide his ID to the community service officer, the officer told him he would have to show it or leave the library, the report said.

Witnesses disputed that account, saying that when campus police arrived, Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack. no contradiction to the CSO's claim to being refused to being shown his ID. Now unless this is a very new student, the library rules would've been posted as well as announced to the students.

"He continued to refuse," the statement said. "As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."that would explain the shouts of "DON'T TOUCH ME" and "GET UP!" that were heard over the recordings.

Posit. Tabatabainejad [victim] was told by CSO to produce an ID or leave. the Victim refused both requests. so Officers were called. CSO would remain with the Victim to resolve the matter as well as prevent him from going anyplace else but OUT.

Victim attempted to leave when Officers arrived. (assuming that the area the video started is where the library exit was) now we can assume that CSO would still be there trying to either get the ID shown or this person who cannot prove he is a student to leave. when officers arrived, he then tried to leave. (too late.)

When an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, the witnesses said, Tabatabainejad told the officer to let go, yelling "Get off me" several times.now we can also assume that the yelling of "Get off me" would be accompanied with an attempt of the vitcim to remove his arm from the officer's grasp. since the officer(s) have to ensure the person either a) produces a student I.D. or b) leaves, they would escort him out where any outburst would not distrub the students. hence on the Victims part, the comment about the officers stopping him from leaving, and the officer's claim of refusing cooperation.

Posit. When officers stepped into the room, the Victim decided to leave. reason unknown. but the fact points to him trying to leave. however, at this time, the Officers are on the scene so they will still have to question him. they grabbed his arm and he shouted let go and attempted to pull away from the officers.

for some reason, the Victim ended up on the ground. either he tripped, or sat down, but one thing is clear. he wasn't tasered at this point. (the videos starts at this point.) in the video, you can hear him telling police to "Don't Touch Me!" and the police telling him to "Get Up" indicating that he was on the ground and officers were attempting to stand him up.

"He continued to refuse," the statement said. "As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."

there is no other account so far to indicate how the student ended up on the floor.

Then you hear the taser going off. it's unclear why but you can hear the officer telling him to "GET UP" repeadedly before you hear the victim scream. there is a point of murmuring so one can assume that the officers are telling him he will be tasered if he doesn't move (an assumption.)

the first taser shot lasted for 5 seconds. after which the officers are still asking him to stand up. at this point he's screaming about the patriot act and abuse of power.

the officer does tell the victim "don't fight us" and the victim is replying "I was leaving" however, it still does not explain why he took so long in leaving or why he refused to stand up.

At this point there is a crowd of people being hostile to the officers. Demanding their badge numbers and id (tho it's not clear if the Victim is asking this or the crowd.) At this point the Victim is tellling the officers that he was leaving [So why was he on the ground refusing to stand up?] that he was taised for no reason. [so why was he refusing to get up and move? why did he refuse to leave when CSO asked him to or why didn't he produce his ID?] and that the officers stopped him. [of course, by the time officers arrive, it's too late to 'leave'] now the crowd is getting bigger... while in and of itself not a threatening event, it does distract the officers and makes a tense situation into one that could explode into violence.

while preaching, the officers tell him to stand up. so he had some time to recover, (while he was ranting) and his reply was a hearty "Fuck off!"

one student can be heard telling him to just stand up and for the officer to back off and give him a moment, and the officer can be heard saying to stand up or he'll be tased again.

at this point two officers stand up and from this posistion, victim is not attempting to stand but remains limp. (I will note at this point, it does seem to be that the victim is handcuffed. when exactly it happened is not known but it has been done.) so the officer gives another 5 second burst with the taser.

now the officers are trying to get victim to stand again, and this time, weither it be by choice or not, the victim doesn't make any attempt to stand, it can be seen that the victim is on his knees, but not attempting to stand. the crowd is now getting ugly.

the officers wait two minutes while getting him to stand up again before warning him a second (possibly third) time that the taser would be used. then a 2 second burst his heard and victim screams.

now the camera moves down to the foyer where there is another group of students as well as more officers to keep the crowd back.

Here we see a student in a black and red shirt/sweater angrily pointing his finger at a uniformed person, infact several students are confronting the officers. creating a Hostile envrionment to the officers.

During the din, the taser is presumed to be used again. and the officers tell him to stand up. but his reply however, isn't quite clear because of the din the other students are making. the taser is used again 5th time (tho possibly it might have been only the 4th time and at this point, all you hear is his screams.) it's not clear if the taser was indeed used twice in the foyer.

at this point the victim is sitting by the foyer as the officers are being confronted by other students. (one of the officers does speak into his radio, presuming to be requesting backup or at least to put other units on alert.)

More officers arrive and the Victim does shuffle off (you can see him attempting to walk with the officers supporting him.)

now the crowd is in the remaining officer's faces. the officers turn to crowd control. the crowd is angry and confronting the officers. hence the officer telling one student in a white shirt, "Back off, stand over there or you'll be tased too." The student in White complies and guess what... he's not tased.

Nowhere could the victim's cries of "I have a medical condition" be heard, that is not to say it wasn't said.



Now with the lack of all other evidence, I will say the officers did NOT use excessive force but did control themselves in a very hostile environment. they may have used more force than necessary, but the Victim wasn't helping his cause any.

Of course this is only my non legal opinion and with the lack of the remaing evidence as well as access to eye witnesses.

The Campus can set up rules as to who can be on campus when. especially when there have been cases of students being attacked late at night as well as homeless people using the library as a shelter. (news reports) so restricting late hours is a right the College can make.

Our police took to hiring private security guards to guard prisoners being held in police cells. Turns out that in the case of one guard put in charge of female prisoners, he was a convicted rapist. Nice one. All of the 'guards' deployed by the private firm were in fact unlicensed students in training.

The police (who are in charge of security clearances requested by the public) claimed that they just trusted the security firm to get security clearances (made no independent checks). One wonders if this lax attitude was related to the fact that the owner of the private security firm was an X-copper. Nepotism, dont ya' just love it.
Works every time. Universities are noted for it, too.

I've read both articles, there is no indication in either that he was trespassing, do you have some information that indicates he was?CSO asked for a Student ID, when none was provided, he was asked to leave. by refusing it makes it tresspassing since campus rules state that no NON-Student remains in the library after a certain time.
According to both articles he was not resisting arrest, in which case how was he obstructing justice?say what? he was not following officers orders to stand up. he was refusing to leave before officers arrived. and he was happy to remain sitting while having the strength to speak in a loud clear voice. that's resisting arrest.

Unless you are privy to info not in the articles, you either have no understanding of the relevent legal aspects or are simply making things up as you go along.well, there is the info in the video also.

I just watched the piece. I've no problem with the first shot; the guy was already loud and obstreporous.
So? How exactly does that dispend laws against assualt?

People seem to be confused about the law here. The law doesnt state 'you cannot assault people unless they are arse-hats' nor 'you cannot assault people unless they are uncooperative or loud or obstreporous'.
The law states you cannot assault people, period.

If it was possible to remove him without the tazor (and it appears that it was) then using the tazor was assault, plain and simple. In fact grabbing hold of him in the manner described may have been assault (depending on the exact law in the particular jurisdiction concerned).

And the fat white cop at the end went WAY overboard threatening a bystander at the end. There's no excuse for this level of incompetence.
We can certainly agree on this!

By who the campus police? they are not qualified law enforcement in any way shape or form.


Wrong...

Campus police, with no legal power beyond the jurisdiction of the university


...incorrect...


These were not police using those weapons. They were just campus rent-a-cops.


...false...


(read: glorified security guard)


...and quite mistaken.


Police officers of the UCLA Police Department are duly sworn peace officers under section 830.2(b) of the California Penal Code. The officers of the department are armed and possess the same authority under the law as municipal police officers. UCLA Police Officers patrol the campus 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They enforce the law, arrest violators, investigate and suppress crime, investigate traffic and bicycle accidents, and provide a full range of services to the community. The Police Department enforces all applicable local, state and federal laws.

( http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/about_mission.html )

Here in California, when we say "police," we tend to mean "police."

And here be a statement from the UCLA Police Department concerning the incident in question (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser%2011-15-06.pdf). Best to be well informed, so as to know what one is talking about.

Wrong...



...and wrong.


( http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/about_mission.html )

And here be a statement from the UCLA Police Department concerning the incident in question (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser%2011-15-06.pdf). Best to be well informed, so as to know what one is talking about.
OK, I'll say it -- duly sworn peace officers in the same city where cops were recently video taped punching the shit out of a suspect they already had subdued (one cop cuffing him without difficulty WHILE his partner, who was kneeling on the guy's neck, punched him repeatedly in the face). Ah, the LAPD, that model for municipal police forces everywhere. Somehow, I'm not appeased. Somehow, this just does not make me think those taser-weilding assholes knew what they were doing with those weapons or that they were justified in their use of force. Somehow, I'm left thinking that what we saw on that video was exactly what it looked like.

CSO asked for a Student ID, when none was provided, he was asked to leave. by refusing it makes it tresspassing since campus rules state that no NON-Student remains in the library after a certain time.
No, it might be trespassing but nothing in the article indicates that it necessarily was. The rule as cited in the article is that non-students may not remain after 11.00pm, the article actually doesnt state what the case is with students who happen to not have id.

say what? he was not following officers orders to stand up. he was refusing to leave before officers arrived. and he was happy to remain sitting while having the strength to speak in a loud clear voice. that's resisting arrest.
No it isnt. He was not fleeing, the artical does not state that anyone told him he was under arrest. Therefore he was not attempting to avoid being arrested, nor was he offering resistence after having been placed under arrest.

Refusing to comply with someone's orders is not necessarily resisting arrest or obstructing justice. It is not obstructing justice to refuse to comply with an order to leave a place where you have a legal right to be. Nor is it obstructing justice to then choose to comply with the order to leave. Nor is it resisting arrest.

well, there is the info in the video also.
Which has been well-described in this thread without a single mention of anything that necessarily constitutes resisting arrest or obstructing justice.

Tazors are not intended for use as a punitive device. If there was no intention to arrest then the officers should have accompanied the person to the exit (without touching him) since he was leaving. If he was under arrest, or the officers were attempting to arrest him, then he ought to have been asked (before anyone laid a hand on him) to halt and informed he was under arrest. Before he was touched (since he was walking not running or otherwise fleeing) he should have been informed that he was under arrest (and so required to halt). That having apparently not happened, he was not resisting arrest, and in reasonably resisting assault he was obstructing justice either.

Ah, the LAPD, that model for municipal police forces everywhere.


The relevant agency is the UC Police Department (at Los Angeles), not LAPD (you'll please note the UCPD at LA's authority is derived from the state, not the City of Los Angeles...). It's obvious, of course, that the LAPD has problems. But to crucify an entire state for one department is kind of silly, isn't it?

(And yes, I have been an innocent person on the business end of the local sherriff's service pistol, so I have at least some experience in these sorts of things. Interestingly enough, I found that by walking and sitting where I was told, I could be cleared, have the situation explained to me, be thanked for my cooperation, and be on my way again all in roughly 15 minutes. Hmmm.)


Somehow, I'm not appeased.


Not the point of my post, really. I just felt it necessary to clarify exactly how law enforcement operates in my state. Efforts to crucify the police would probably be more successful from a position of knowledge, not ignorance. But then, I'd rather wait for the justice system to do its job myself.

disgusting.

but as many has said, no one taped the beginning so we only have the eyewitness accounts...

so let's try to piece the night together with what we have.sounds fun



no contradiction to the CSO's claim to being refused to being shown his ID. Now unless this is a very new student, the library rules would've been posted as well as announced to the students.The issue is what was actually said. A refusal would be "Fuck no, get away from me". A refusal would also be "I don't have it with me". There are no reports from either the boy or the CSO who approached him first.



Posit. Tabatabainejad [victim] was told by CSO to produce an ID or leave. the Victim refused both requests. so Officers were called. CSO would remain with the Victim to resolve the matter as well as prevent him from going anyplace else but OUT. His refusal to leave could have, again, been anything from "No" to "Just let me finish this"

Victim attempted to leave when Officers arrived. (assuming that the area the video started is where the library exit was) now we can assume that CSO would still be there trying to either get the ID shown or this person who cannot prove he is a student to leave. when officers arrived, he then tried to leave. (too late.) Judging from how the library is set up, he would have to be up and moving before he could see the officers.

now we can also assume that the yelling of "Get off me" would be accompanied with an attempt of the vitcim to remove his arm from the officer's grasp.Yes, someone grabs you without giving a decent reason, rather than treating you decently, you tend to get poor responses. This would be their first mistake. You do not _ever_ just grab someone when they do not expect it. It would typically start with "sir, please come with me".
since the officer(s) have to ensure the person either a) produces a student I.D. or b) leaves, they would escort him out where any outburst would not distrub the students. hence on the Victims part, the comment about the officers stopping him from leaving, and the officer's claim of refusing cooperation. Escourting out at no time requires a finger to be laid on a person unless they are not cooperating. Either the boy was already violent (which, judging by the video start time and the confused looks in the very beginning, is not the case) or the cops made the wrong first move.

Posit. When officers stepped into the room, the Victim decided to leave. reason unknown. but the fact points to him trying to leave. however, at this time, the Officers are on the scene so they will still have to question him. they grabbed his arm and he shouted let go and attempted to pull away from the officers.We don't know the cops were in the room. That is an assumption that is too great to make, as it would place too much responsibility one way or the other.

for some reason, the Victim ended up on the ground. either he tripped, or sat down, but one thing is clear. he wasn't tasered at this point. (the videos starts at this point.) in the video, you can hear him telling police to "Don't Touch Me!" and the police telling him to "Get Up" indicating that he was on the ground and officers were attempting to stand him up.
k


there is no other account so far to indicate how the student ended up on the floor. I wouldn't expect one for a while

Then you hear the taser going off. it's unclear why but you can hear the officer telling him to "GET UP" repeadedly before you hear the victim scream. there is a point of murmuring so one can assume that the officers are telling him he will be tasered if he doesn't move (an assumption.) k

the first taser shot lasted for 5 seconds. after which the officers are still asking him to stand up. at this point he's screaming about the patriot act and abuse of power.yep

the officer does tell the victim "don't fight us" and the victim is replying "I was leaving" however, it still does not explain why he took so long in leaving or why he refused to stand up.Standing up, okay. Why should he explain why he was delayed in leaving? The entire issue was trying to get him to leave. He is leaving. Problem solved.

At this point there is a crowd of people being hostile to the officers. Demanding their badge numbers and id (tho it's not clear if the Victim is asking this or the crowd.)They have every right to demand this information, and the officers SHOULD be giving it. They are employees of the university, and are employed to protect the student population. They are required to give badge numbers when requested.
At this point the Victim is tellling the officers that he was leaving [So why was he on the ground refusing to stand up?]We don't know the actual situation of this moment. Was he refusing to stand up, or was something preventing this?
that he was taised for no reason. [so why was he refusing to get up and move? why did he refuse to leave when CSO asked him to or why didn't he produce his ID?]see above. I know that if I'm in the middle of research or writing a paper, I would want to save it or print it before I leave.
and that the officers stopped him. [of course, by the time officers arrive, it's too late to 'leave'] Why is it too late to leave? They are campus officers...all they can do is tell him to leave before calling in the real cops. They don't question, and can't arrest.

now the crowd is getting bigger... while in and of itself not a threatening event, it does distract the officers and makes a tense situation into one that could explode into violence.*sings*"We're a big unruly mob"[/rocko's modern life]

while preaching, the officers tell him to stand up. so he had some time to recover, (while he was ranting) and his reply was a hearty "Fuck off!"yep

one student can be heard telling him to just stand up and for the officer to back off and give him a moment, and the officer can be heard saying to stand up or he'll be tased again.honestly, at this moment, the other student is right. Give the kid a second.

at this point two officers stand up and from this posistion, victim is not attempting to stand but remains limp. (I will note at this point, it does seem to be that the victim is handcuffed. when exactly it happened is not known but it has been done.) so the officer gives another 5 second burst with the taser.I didn't see the handcuffs...I'll look in a few minutes.

This covers the two taser blasts that I maybe could justify. At this point, in my opinion, the officers go past their rights.

now the officers are trying to get victim to stand again, and this time, weither it be by choice or not, the victim doesn't make any attempt to stand, it can be seen that the victim is on his knees, but not attempting to stand. the crowd is now getting ugly.rightfully so.

the officers wait two minutes while getting him to stand up again before warning him a second (possibly third) time that the taser would be used. then a 2 second burst his heard and victim screams.This would be third...first was the one before he started his rant, second put him on the ground again.

now the camera moves down to the foyer where there is another group of students as well as more officers to keep the crowd back.yep

Here we see a student in a black and red shirt/sweater angrily pointing his finger at a uniformed person, infact several students are confronting the officers. creating a Hostile envrionment to the officers. And they are demanding that they give their badge numbers (something they should have done long ago) as well as demanding that they stop shocking the kid (not an outrageous demand)

During the din, the taser is presumed to be used again. and the officers tell him to stand up. but his reply however, isn't quite clear because of the din the other students are making. the taser is used again 5th time (tho possibly it might have been only the 4th time and at this point, all you hear is his screams.) it's not clear if the taser was indeed used twice in the foyer.From what noises he made earlier, I'd say it is pretty safe to assume twice.

at this point the victim is sitting by the foyer as the officers are being confronted by other students. (one of the officers does speak into his radio, presuming to be requesting backup or at least to put other units on alert.)Backup should have been called LONG ago. As well as REAL cops. Both big mistakes.

More officers arrive and the Victim does shuffle off (you can see him attempting to walk with the officers supporting him.)Before this, you hear them telling the boy to stand up again. They clearly have little idea of what tasering a person 3 or 4 times does. Additionally note, the person who blocks the camera is an officer. the boy is not attempting to walk, as his legs don't have strength. The officers are essentially pulling him out. He can't resist or help.

now the crowd is in the remaining officer's faces.the officers have yet to provide their badge numbers. Now would be the time they should.
the officers turn to crowd control. the crowd is angry and confronting the officers. hence the officer telling one student in a white shirt, "Back off, stand over there or you'll be tased too." The student in White complies and guess what... he's not tased.He shouldn't have complied. But that is neither here nor there. That is absolutly horrible crowd control technique. If "I'll taser you" is the only trick you have, you are fucked. You can't pull your taser as fast as 60 students can jump into attack mode. Their best move would be to comply and leave. They are the reason for the mob, and will be able to do nothing to control it. Additionally, if they want crowd control, they should be calling the police.

Nowhere could the victim's cries of "I have a medical condition" be heard, that is not to say it wasn't said.that comes from witness reports.



Now with the lack of all other evidence, I will say the officers did NOT use excessive force but did control themselves in a very hostile environment. they may have used more force than necessary, but the Victim wasn't helping his cause any.In the beginning, no. At the point of the third taser, it became clear that he was no longer resisting. He was quite a loud screamer...you would hear him. Expecting a person who was tasered 3x to stand is, quite honestly, stupid.

Of course this is only my non legal opinion and with the lack of the remaing evidence as well as access to eye witnesses.ditto

The Campus can set up rules as to who can be on campus when. especially when there have been cases of students being attacked late at night as well as homeless people using the library as a shelter. (news reports) so restricting late hours is a right the College can make.
They can make the rules. They are shitty rules, but they can make them. A better idea would be to bring in a security guard or two to keep an eye on things.

But wait...that makes sense.


Edit: DC gave some new info about UCLA police. Disregard anything that contradicts that. It is almost 3 AM and I really don't care to go back through this and fix it.

Bunch of savages. I'm not surprised though, given this was in USA....

Nowhere could the victim's cries of "I have a medical condition" be heard, that is not to say it wasn't said.

No, you could hear it in the video. Immediatly after the first taze he yells "I have a medical condition!" I caught it the third time I watched the video, you might have to listen carefully, but once you hear it it becomes abundantly clear.

According to two other people that have experience with tasers, that's not the case. ;)

Thinking about it, when I took that taze, I'd just completed basic. So, I was in as good shape as I'd ever been in my life. Someone less fit certainly could have been incapacitated for longer.

Bunch of savages. I'm not surprised though, given this was in USA....
We are all going to politely assume that whatever you mean by that, you don't mean Americans are all savages. That would be absurd and make you look rather silly, so you must mean something else.

Yes and what are you going to do?
Nothing.
Then shut up and let the police bullying people freely.

Police job is hard enough. Think to let them have some fun time to time.
Do you want any police (security, same shit) union to strike if any action is given against one of their member?

Ach! Alles is gut. Polizei is a beautiful job.
And when things go wrong you can call for the army, they will never refuse to shoot against civilians, they never refused.

You voted for your gw bush, you had it, now please you have to pay for it. Contrition is too easy. That student was certainly Arab, beatnik, lazy, dirty, abusive.
Security is clean at Ali time. They do not vote, gw bush was too much of a leftist for them.

Hail the UCLA Polizei for the good job, another point for Schwartzy the Beast. Long life to the Californian Cthulu.



The Editor is very sorry to compare Cthulu to a nasty second zone politician like the stupid Schwartsenhelldigger.

Yes and what are you going to do?
Nothing.
Then shut up and let the police bullying people freely.

Police job is hard enough. Think to let them have some fun time to time.
Do you want any police (security, same shit) union to strike if any action is given against one of their member?

Ach! Alles is gut. Polizei is a beautiful job.
And when things go wrong you can call for the army, they will never refuse to shoot against civilians, they never refused.

You voted for your gw bush, you had it, now please you have to pay for it. Contrition is too easy. That student was certainly Arab, beatnik, lazy, dirty, abusive.
Security is clean at Ali time. They do not vote, gw bush was too much of a leftist for them.

Hail the UCLA Polizei for the good job, another point for Schwartzy the Beast. Long life to the Californian Cthulu.



The Editor is very sorry to compare Cthulu to a nasty second zone politician like the stupid Schwartsenhelldigger.


Um...what? are you a professional troll or just a gifted amateur?

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to stand up, he should have stood up. Those officers had every right to kick his ass. You shouldn't resist the police.
You're excusing excessive force? Not obeying the police gives them the right to do anything to you?

I would have shouted for them to stop as he wasn't resisting, then one of these things: 1. shouted something like "come on, they can't taser us all" to the rest of the students and charged at the c*nts, 2. arranged i would charge forwards and get tasered to provide a "dummy" for the "officers" whilst the other students charged at them, or 3., got close enough without being tasered and wasted both of the mofas. i wouldn't have stood around like a frigging idiot.

I am watching it now. That student was being an ass. He should have left when told to leave. When asked to stand up, he should have stood up. Those officers had every right to kick his ass. You shouldn't resist the police.

I wonder what you will think when the Gestapo (that you love so much), kick in YOUR door, pepper-spray your sleeping lover and fire 30,000-volt taser leads into you while you're prone on the ground. Then they drag you away to some secret prison, where they continue to torture you for years demanding information you don't know.

Oh yeah. You're never released because they don't need a reason thanks to the security laws you failed to resist.

We were talking about police brutality and self defence and the like, and I said that anyone who ever considers using one should have to experience it.

When I tried to gain a bail enforcement agent license (more commonly known as Bounty Hunters) I was pepper-sprayed repeatedly for that purpose. It taught me how to judiciously use such defensive measures, even if I never active worked as a bail enforcement agent (one botched assist job changed my mind).

Yes and what are you going to do?
Nothing.
Then shut up and let the police bullying people freely.

Police job is hard enough. Think to let them have some fun time to time.
Do you want any police (security, same shit) union to strike if any action is given against one of their member?

Ach! Alles is gut. Polizei is a beautiful job.
And when things go wrong you can call for the army, they will never refuse to shoot against civilians, they never refused.

You voted for your gw bush, you had it, now please you have to pay for it. Contrition is too easy. That student was certainly Arab, beatnik, lazy, dirty, abusive.
Security is clean at Ali time. They do not vote, gw bush was too much of a leftist for them.

Hail the UCLA Polizei for the good job, another point for Schwartzy the Beast. Long life to the Californian Cthulu.



The Editor is very sorry to compare Cthulu to a nasty second zone politician like the stupid Schwartsenhelldigger.

The faux-German used tells me this person is not really a German as much as a foreign pretender-Naz^ claiming "Aryan heritage". English education in Germany IMHO is excellent, to the point that a typical German high school graduate speaks better formal English than their US counterparts.

The faux-German used tells me this person is not really a German as much as a foreign pretender-Naz^ claiming Aryan heritage.

And being racist - "certainly Arab", as if the student's race made the brutality OK

officers = assholes

student = martyr complex

it definately sucks that they were treating him that way - if there's any justice they'll all lose their jobs and go to jail, (but they obviously won't, of course, as there is no justice) - but I strongly suspect the student will positively revel in having been persecuted for the rest of his life. he could've gotten up, (from what I've heard about tasers), but prefered to wallow in his sublime misery...the police officers knew he was exagerating, and were pigs to begin with...they got mad and tasered him more. they were definately in the wrong, but he *wanted* to be a martyr (...I mean, come on, listen to what he's yelling about the patriot act - even if he's 100% right, he wanted to make a scene). rather than try to minimise the damage after the idiot police tasered him for nothing, he drew it out as much as possible to make himself a martyr. he came into the library with certain assumptions, and the fact he's obviously dealing in politics even while the police are abusing him shows he very well understood this was an oppurtunity to make a scene.

Um...what? are you a professional troll or just a gifted amateur?

lol, beat me to it! :D

when officers arrived, he then tried to leave. (too late.)
by "too late," do you mean he's past the point where it's 'okay' for police to taser him?

At this point the Victim is tellling the officers that he was leaving [So why was he on the ground refusing to stand up?] that he was taised for no reason. [so why was he refusing to get up and move? why did he refuse to leave when CSO asked him to or why didn't he produce his ID?] and that the officers stopped him. [of course, by the time officers arrive, it's too late to 'leave']
just a theory, but a few reasons he'd be on the ground not wanting to get up (assuming he actually collapsed before the first tasing) would be if his "medical condition" was if he has certian forms of Autism, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, of Schizophrenia. in all of those psychological disorders, there are certian cases where physical contact from a vast majority or even all humans causes severe emotional stress... enough to the point of falling to the ground in mental anguish.

Nowhere could the victim's cries of "I have a medical condition" be heard, that is not to say it wasn't said.
i heard it the first time through, soon after the first time he was tased.

Now with the lack of all other evidence, I will say the officers did NOT use excessive force but did control themselves in a very hostile environment. they may have used more force than necessary, but the Victim wasn't helping his cause any.
funny, dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/excessive) labels excessive as "going beyond the usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree." is there a zone between "more that needed" and "more than needed"??

Of course this is only my non legal opinion and with the lack of the remaing evidence as well as access to eye witnesses.
well this is my opinion (plus some nice facts) as a student in my last year of a double major in psychology and criminal justice. true, the student was being less than optimally compliant in regards to leaving. yes, he cussed the police out(and, contrary to popular belief, campus cops are government-sworn peace officers, as has been said once or twice before), and the crowed was getting hostile. yes, the police were probably feeling more and more threatened as the incident went on. if the cops had handled the situation properly, i.e. not grabbing the kid as he was leaving, not tasering him when he initially crumpled, and not tasering him four or five times and yelling "get up!"... then none of this would have happened.
i swear, that's one of the things that pisses me off the most: when people in positions of power entrusted with our safety - and our very lives- blatantly abuse it, allowing other people in power to shift things to their own ends.

oh, and another thing: i have been tasered before. a friend of mine let me use her taser on my waist: it made my leg shoot completely outstretched, like a cartoon getting it's knee hit by a hammer. then we used it on the back of my neck. i dropped like a f***ing stone; i literally could not feel my body for a good three seconds, and could only groggily move my limbs for a while afterwards. and that was little more than a one or two second burst. from a civillian taser.

so those cops that put 15+ seconds of restricted-grade electrocution into a guy after he'd already been tasered a good five seconds... yeah, that IS a bit much :mad:

oh yeah, and another thing: even if it's proven the student was being completely uncooperative, the cops could have bodily carried him out of the library after cuffing him. tasering him repeatedly after the first time was clearly excessive.

Yeah, and i'll bet the officers will get off scot free and the student fined. It won't the first time arseholes have abused power for their own sadistic urges and gotten away with it.

Yeah, and i'll bet the officers will get off scot free and the student fined. It won't the first time arseholes have abused power for their own sadistic urges and gotten away with it.

I completely agree - but again...the fact the student likely did too, and would probably consider being abused by the police a badge of honor doesn't help his case much. he's obviously the wronged party here...but he *wanted* to be the wronged party.

I completely agree - but again...the fact the student likely did too, and would probably consider being abused by the police a badge of honor doesn't help his case much. he's obviously the wronged party here...but he *wanted* to be the wronged party.

If someone asks me to punch them in the face, I still have the option of not punching them in the face. The officers were not forced into continually tasering this man.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. The fuck??? How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him, you fucking assholes?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost fucking 6 am and I really should go to bed and really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.
People have been programmed by the state to not interfer in other peoples matters, just like that little Austrian girl that went missing the neighbours figured him for a bit of a weirdo at times perhaps they heard yelling, did they do anything?
Nope.

Besides you'd only end up getting tazered yourself.
That isn't me justifying not helping it's me saying, that would hurt.

yeah, same in this area. In order to carry pepper spray and the like, you have to be sprayed in the face too.


What do they do to you if you want to be able to carry a gun?:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Just Kidding...

Maybe they know Rodney King!

That isn't me justifying not helping it's me saying, that would hurt.

heh, there's the biggest reason why no one stepped in :p

heh, there's the biggest reason why no one stepped in :p
http://209.85.48.10/html/emoticons/sleep.gif
I've read newspaper articles were people get discouraged by the police for stepping into incidents, except when it is the police themselves...

About 2 months ago some guy started pushing another guy around(A guy that obviously didn't want to fight), they were both about 17, guy A threw a massive swinging arm at the other guy who was trying to back away, did i step in?
Nope because it ain't my bussiness.
Of course this is different because the OP is about the Security already controling the situation but going into excess.

I know I don't always have mine with me. He was using the library, for fucks sake. The LATimes article says all non-students have to be out of the library by 11 PM for "safety" reasons. That is total bullshit. It is a library.

The rule is stupid, but then, universities are good with stupid rules.

The problem is, it is unclear what exactly happened...did he refuse to show it for no reason? Did he not have it? It seems, according to WYTYG's article, that he was planning on leaving, and was just finishing something up. By the time the cops got there, it seems that he was actually leaving. In which case, it is total bullshit, instead of just being 99% bullshit.

Strange, maybe it is a European thing, but you can't get into most university libraries here without a card. The card has a little chip in it and you have pass it over a reader and then you can pass through the stalls. If you want to use a different university's library, you have to show your card of your home university and they'll make you a card for that university for a small fee. I think the general public can get cards as well but they have to pay more. University libraries have to be more careful than community libraries because they have rarer books, many out-of-print with only a small number ever put into circulation. If some books are lost or stolen, they can't replaced without coughing up lots of money.

That being said, it seems excessive to taser that student that much, if at all, especially if he was going towards the door to leave.

If it was in this country, al the police would be suspended and going under serious investigation.

In this country, the police would be too scared of getting sued into oblivion to do that.

Wow...

The big debate at my campus is the prospect of the campus police being armed for the first time. Thanks to this, the president of my college, who is very for arming the campus cops got a nice little e-mail this morning, as did my local news.

This whole event is disgusting. It literally makes me sick.

In this country, the police would be too scared of getting sued into oblivion to do that.
Unless it was Queensland (or Redfern) and they were Abos.
*Flees*

he's obviously the wronged party here...but he *wanted* to be the wronged party.

What makes you think someone wanted to be tasered repeatedly?

That was a huge excess of force, but that video has far from convinced me that I've heard the entire story. The things he was yelling at first are starting to make me think this was exactly the reaction that he was hoping for. I would like to know exactly what he was doing in that library that would end up in such a scene. Im sure the officers dont just make rounds to check for ID's.

Three lads who know their business do not need tasers to remove somebody from a library 99.999% of the time. Or anywhere else, for that matter. He'd be out of there in seconds. This is why I think non-lethal weapons are open to more abuse than lethal, and should not be allowed in the hands of cops on the beat.

Strange, maybe it is a European thing, but you can't get into most university libraries here without a card. The card has a little chip in it and you have pass it over a reader and then you can pass through the stalls. If you want to use a different university's library, you have to show your card of your home university and they'll make you a card for that university for a small fee. I think the general public can get cards as well but they have to pay more. University libraries have to be more careful than community libraries because they have rarer books, many out-of-print with only a small number ever put into circulation. If some books are lost or stolen, they can't replaced without coughing up lots of money.

That being said, it seems excessive to taser that student that much, if at all, especially if he was going towards the door to leave.

It's similar here. In the library on the main campus you need to "scan" your student card over a sensor to get past the turnstiles entering or leaving the library. But in the Earlsfort Terrace library(not on the main campus) you can just walk in. That might be because the building is older and they're selling it soon, so there's no point in installing the turnstiles.

[obligatory police used excessive force stuff]

http://209.85.48.10/html/emoticons/sleep.gif
I've read newspaper articles were people get discouraged by the police for stepping into incidents, except when it is the police themselves...

About 2 months ago some guy started pushing another guy around(A guy that obviously didn't want to fight), they were both about 17, guy A threw a massive swinging arm at the other guy who was trying to back away, did i step in?
Nope because it ain't my bussiness.
Of course this is different because the OP is about the Security already controling the situation but going into excess.

If the guy was pushed to the ground by the other guy and kicked again and again. Would you step in or just say it ain't your business and move on?

That makes me sick, you can't really say with certainly what you would do in such a situation, but cruelty just makes me so immensely angry that you would have to intervene.

That makes me sick, you can't really say with certainly what you would do in such a situation, but cruelty just makes me so immensely angry that you would have to intervene.

Indeed. I like to think I would have tried to rush the cops, though I more than likely would have ended up on the ground being tased, then trampled by people rushing after me.

Indeed. I like to think I would have tried to rush the cops, though I more than likely would have ended up on the ground being tased, then trampled by people rushing after me.

But seriously, how could such a bunch of macho psychopaths get armed with badges, people who deal with mouthy people via half torturing them to death in a public space, hopefully they themselves end up in a cell. Sickening.

I think people are being overly dramatic. The officers request for ID is legitimate. Detaining someone for questioning is legitimate. ie placing a hand on someone who isnt fully stopping to allow an interrigation. Asking a person at least 70x to stand up is a legitimate police request. Not standing up and followingf the polices legitimate order is not legitimate. The officers asked REPEATEDLY. Was tased, then asked to get up at least 20 or 30 times more after that. The suspects voice was clear and cohesive after he was tasered the first time and STILL failed to obey the cops requests at least 20 more times to stand up. This didnt appear to be a case of cops yelling at a corpse to stand up. If the guy refused to give ID and refuse to obey a single police order what exactly should the cops have done? Given up and left?

We are all going to politely assume that whatever you mean by that, you don't mean Americans are all savages. That would be absurd and make you look rather silly, so you must mean something else.

Considering all those school shootings, free guns, much higher per capita crime rates, whole macho culture (land of free and *brave*), widespread poverty (compared to Europe), I'm not surprised such events are happening in USA.

I think people are being overly dramatic. The officers request for ID is legitimate. Detaining someone for questioning is legitimate. ie placing a hand on someone who isnt fully stopping to allow an interrigation. Asking a person at least 70x to stand up is a legitimate police request. Not standing up and followingf the polices legitimate order is not legitimate. The officers asked REPEATEDLY. Was tased, then asked to get up at least 20 or 30 times more after that. The suspects voice was clear and cohesive after he was tasered the first time and STILL failed to obey the cops requests at least 20 more times to stand up. This didnt appear to be a case of cops yelling at a corpse to stand up. If the guy refused to give ID and refuse to obey a single police order what exactly should the cops have done? Given up and left?

They should have verified if he was allowed there first, then kicked his butt.

I think people are being overly dramatic. The officers request for ID is legitimate. Detaining someone for questioning is legitimate. ie placing a hand on someone who isnt fully stopping to allow an interrigation. Asking a person at least 70x to stand up is a legitimate police request. Not standing up and followingf the polices legitimate order is not legitimate. The officers asked REPEATEDLY. Was tased, then asked to get up at least 20 or 30 times more after that. The suspects voice was clear and cohesive after he was tasered the first time and STILL failed to obey the cops requests at least 20 more times to stand up. This didnt appear to be a case of cops yelling at a corpse to stand up. If the guy refused to give ID and refuse to obey a single police order what exactly should the cops have done? Given up and left?

Since he was leaving when the police arrived they probably should have escorted him out and questioned him on the way. There was no need to stop him there, nor was there any need to tase him repeatedly and demand he stand up(which now makes me think of "stop hitting yourself").

I think people are being overly dramatic. The officers request for ID is legitimate. Detaining someone for questioning is legitimate. ie placing a hand on someone who isnt fully stopping to allow an interrigation. Asking a person at least 70x to stand up is a legitimate police request. Not standing up and followingf the polices legitimate order is not legitimate. The officers asked REPEATEDLY. Was tased, then asked to get up at least 20 or 30 times more after that. The suspects voice was clear and cohesive after he was tasered the first time and STILL failed to obey the cops requests at least 20 more times to stand up. This didnt appear to be a case of cops yelling at a corpse to stand up. If the guy refused to give ID and refuse to obey a single police order what exactly should the cops have done? Given up and left?

I don't know about the U.S. where you're so free. Here in the UK, you do not have to give I.D. when requested by Police.

I think people are being overly dramatic. The officers request for ID is legitimate. Detaining someone for questioning is legitimate. ie placing a hand on someone who isnt fully stopping to allow an interrigation. Asking a person at least 70x to stand up is a legitimate police request. Not standing up and followingf the polices legitimate order is not legitimate. The officers asked REPEATEDLY. Was tased, then asked to get up at least 20 or 30 times more after that. The suspects voice was clear and cohesive after he was tasered the first time and STILL failed to obey the cops requests at least 20 more times to stand up. This didnt appear to be a case of cops yelling at a corpse to stand up. If the guy refused to give ID and refuse to obey a single police order what exactly should the cops have done? Given up and left?

Have you read the last few pages of the debate, your arguments have already been addressed. Also depending on where he got tasered in his body will affect what he can do. If he has been tasered in the lower body then it is likely he won't be able to stand or walk (unless he is one of the very few who can shrug off taser shots quickly) but will still be able to talk reasonable clearly if with gritted teeth due to pain as that part of his body has not been affected.

Also, if someone shouts they have a medical condition you don't continue tasering them. The police have to play on the side of caution as tasering someone with certain medical conditions can be fatal. If he started be violent and trying to hurt the officers then they might be able claim self defense but it is very unlikely. In this case he was never violent just rude and uncoperative.

They should have verified if he was allowed there first, then kicked his butt.

Why? The reasonable thing to do would have been to escort him out, or handcuff him and carry him out(there appeared to be 3-5 officers there on the video), and maybe tase him once.

I don't know about the U.S. where you're so free. Here in the UK, you do not have to give I.D. when requested by Police.

He was in the library, where only students are permitted after 11pm and must have ID.

He was in the library, where only students are permitted after 11pm and must have ID.

He may of had I.D.

Just because he didn't show it doesn't mean he doesn't have it or has a legitimate reason for being there.

Why? The reasonable thing to do would have been to escort him out, or handcuff him and carry him out(there appeared to be 3-5 officers there on the video), and maybe tase him once.

Precisely. 3 lads could have had him out of there in seconds. And they won't have had to beat the shit out of him to do it.

And to whoever was calling them "officers" - they're glorified bouncers. Theres nothing wrong with that, but don't start giving them airs they aren't entitled to. If 3 men can't handle a dickhead in a library, I can safely say we know why they didnt make it as real cops.

Why? The reasonable thing to do would have been to escort him out, or handcuff him and carry him out(there appeared to be 3-5 officers there on the video), and maybe tase him once.

Sorry, that was tongue in cheek.

They shouldn't have violated him at all. Behaviour like that is a bit like Iraqi or Chinese police.

He may of had I.D.

Just because he didn't show it doesn't mean he doesn't have it or has a legitimate reason for being there.

I dare say he did have a good reason to be there, considering that he's a student and all, but if he had it why didn't he show it when he was asked to? My guess is he was trying to make a point(ID cards are teh ebul perhaps). It went pretty badly for him, I must say.

This is a clear case of why our freedom is being eroded away.

The student body observing this incident were powerless to prevent it. Why? Because we've elevated police in this society to a status of complete trust and faith, and they clearly don't deserve it. If the students had made a physical attempt to stop this, the consequences would have been extreme for them as well, including a criminal record. Any judge in any court will automatically buy into the officers' version of the story, as the assumption is that their personal integrity is unassailable and they'd NEVER abuse their power.

Which we know to be false.

Cops often do abuse their power. It's easy. Think of the factors:

-They're the armed ones. Whether it's a gun, taser or pepper spray.
-They're backed by the Government who will always support them over you.
-They will watch each other's back. If one cop is out of line, his co-workers will protect him.
-They know it.

As I watched this video I kept hoping this crowd of students would rush the cops. What was disturbing was at the end, when one student was arguing with one of the cops, they threatened to use the taser on him too. He wasn't even being violent and he was not in an unauthorized area.

And they threatened him. Maybe it's because he wasn't flinching from them.

That part disturbed me almost more than the rest.

He was in the library, where only students are permitted after 11pm and must have ID.

Still not having ID is not enough to justify using the taser, in the UK the police can only subdue someone if they are being violent (not being cooperative is not enough)

Precisely. 3 lads could have had him out of there in seconds. And they won't have had to beat the shit out of him to do it.

And to whoever was calling them "officers" - they're glorified bouncers. Theres nothing wrong with that, but don't start giving them airs they aren't entitled to. If 3 men can't handle a dickhead in a library, I can safely say we know why they didnt make it as real cops.

As it happens campus police are real police, at least in this case. The post about it is back a wee bit.

EDIT:Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11959119&postcount=114) it is.

Precisely. 3 lads could have had him out of there in seconds. And they won't have had to beat the shit out of him to do it.

And to whoever was calling them "officers" - they're glorified bouncers. Theres nothing wrong with that, but don't start giving them airs they aren't entitled to. If 3 men can't handle a dickhead in a library, I can safely say we know why they didnt make it as real cops.

They probably were cops, that's why they're not anymore.

Or maybe as cops they're so stupid they'd shoot themselves with their own guns while loading them.

Still not having ID is not enough to justify using the taser, in the UK the police can only subdue someone if they are being violent (not being cooperative is not enough)

No, it's not. They should have just carried the guy out of there if he resisted. As I said, I don't think they need to tase him more than once, and even that may have been pushing it.

In the UK we have more civil rights and a bit more respect for each other in situations like that.

In the UK we have more civil rights and a bit more respect for each other in situations like that.

There was a time when I would have scoffed at that.

Anyone saying he should have got the point after the first tasering and moved out of the library seems to be missing the point of the taser as a police tool.

There was a time when I would have scoffed at that.

Was it around the time British police shot a Brazilian for looking foriegn, running and having a backpack?

Was it around the time British police shot a Brazilian for looking foriegn, running and having a backpack?

And shooting an Asian while he was in bed.

Was it around the time British police shot a Brazilian for looking foriegn, running and having a backpack?

I just meant that I used to believe that civil protections were sacrosanct, and I used to buy into the illusion of police integrity. I think I've seen too many incidents like this one.

This isnt an example of a guy who CANT get up, this is about a guy who REFUSES to get up. Big difference. At no time in his protestations did he ever say he was unable to get up, he just simply willingly refuses to do so. So i dont buy this lower taser paralysis BS at all.

People being shot by Police in the UK is vary rare and in unusual circumstance. In the U.S. it is quite a normal part of life.

Hell, I'd have a shed loads of guns if I could just walk into Walmart and buy them.

This isnt an example of a guy who CANT get up, this is about a guy who REFUSES to get up. Big difference. At no time in his protestations did he ever say he was unable to get up, he just simply willingly refuses to do so. So i dont buy this lower taser paralysis BS at all.

What does it matter if he wouldn't get up anyway? They could have carried him out you know, or dragged him.

This isnt an example of a guy who CANT get up, this is about a guy who REFUSES to get up. Big difference. At no time in his protestations did he ever say he was unable to get up, he just simply willingly refuses to do so. So i dont buy this lower taser paralysis BS at all.

You don't get much. It's wrong to be offencive like that just because he refuses to give I.D. He was leaving anyway so what was the point? To show everbody how damn tough they are.

You don't get much. It's wrong to be offencive like that just because he refuses to give I.D. He was leaving anyway so what was the point? To show everbody how damn tough they are.

Maybe parents should start using tasers on their children when they don't do as they ask?

This isnt an example of a guy who CANT get up, this is about a guy who REFUSES to get up. Big difference. At no time in his protestations did he ever say he was unable to get up, he just simply willingly refuses to do so. So i dont buy this lower taser paralysis BS at all.

Even if you're right, it doesn't MATTER. Use of that level of force was NOT justified. The student was not reacting violently. He was not resisting the thugs beyond refusing to get up, at worst that was an act of civil disobedience and the use of tasers was not justified.

When Ghandi was teaching the value of civil disobedience, can you imagine the world's reaction if tasers existed back then and were used on him and his people?

This isnt an example of a guy who CANT get up, this is about a guy who REFUSES to get up. Big difference. At no time in his protestations did he ever say he was unable to get up, he just simply willingly refuses to do so. So i dont buy this lower taser paralysis BS at all.



Heheh I can't understand that people don't realise what an electric shock does to your muscles. If this bloke was tazered that means that he would not have been able to get up, not right away anyway.

When Ghandi was teaching the value of civil disobedience, can you imagine the world's reaction if tasers existed back then and were used on him and his people?


Umm much the same when we found out that bloody big sticks and guns where used?

You don't get much. It's wrong to be offencive like that just because he refuses to give I.D. He was leaving anyway so what was the point? To show everbody how damn tough they are.

I hate to tell you this, but when the police are called to investigate an incident, a police officer has the right and in fact the obligation to stop you and question you and ask for ANY form of ID regardless if you were leaving, left, not leaving, plan to leave in 20 min or planning to leave tomorrow. Failure to obey a lawful order from a police officer is against the law.

I hate to tell you this, but a police officer has the right to stop you and question you and ask for ANY form of ID regardless if you were leaving, left, not leaving, plan to leave in 20 min or planning to leave tomorrow. Failure to obey a lawful order from a police officer is against the law.

Umm that might by true, and i hate to tyell you this, but not all police are upstanding memebers of the commuintiy, ohhh no not by a long way. Why do you think we get to call them things like, pigs, the filth, ****-stubble?

In NJ, police can only use tasers in situations in which they would have been permitted to use a firearm.

Anyone know what the rules are in California? The police certainly (I hope) aren't allowed to use tasres on a strict judgement call; there must be some regulation

Umm that might by true, and i hate to tyell you this, but not all police are upstanding memebers of the commuintiy, ohhh no not by a long way. Why do you think we get to call them things like, pigs, the filth, ****-stubble?

I dont understand how this is relevant to the point.

Umm that might by true, and i hate to tyell you this, but not all police are upstanding memebers of the commuintiy, ohhh no not by a long way. Why do you think we get to call them things like, pigs, the filth, ****-stubble?

The filth, gotta love that one.

I dont understand how this is relevant to the point.

Kinda like it's not relevant whether the student could have walked out or not when the police could have carried him out?:p

Even if you're right, it doesn't MATTER. Use of that level of force was NOT justified. The student was not reacting violently. He was not resisting the thugs beyond refusing to get up, at worst that was an act of civil disobedience and the use of tasers was not justified.



So what were the polices options at this point? To take 5 officers them and hog tie him and drag him out by bodily force? And you think this will somehow hurt the suspect LESS than a taser? Or should the police have thrown up thier hands and said this is too hard for us and just left?

So what were the polices options at this point? To take 5 officers them and hog tie him and drag him out by bodily force? And you think this will somehow hurt the suspect LESS than a taser? Or should the police have thrown up thier hands and said this is too hard for us and just left?

They could have easily carried him out if there were five of them. Hell, if he just went limp two officers could have carried him out, maybe just one.

They could have easily carried him out if there were five of them. Hell, if he just went limp two officers could have carried him out, maybe just one.


Yea right. Sorry no one or even two officers are going to carry 150-200 lbs of dead weight ANYWHERE let alone up or down several floors of a library. And the police would CERTIANLY would use many more in case the suspect decided that he didnt like being dragged a few blocks. So no, a fairly long distance carry/drag will unquestionably be very painful for the suspect.

Yea right. Sorry no one or even two officers are going to carry 150-200 lbs of dead weight ANYWHERE let alone up or down escalaters or elevaters.
How fortunate there was 5.
And the police would CERTIANLY would use many more in case the suspect decided that he didnt like being dragged a few blocks. So no, a fairly long distance carry/drag will unquestionably be very painful for the suspect.

A few blocks? They only had to carry(not drag) him out of the building and put him into a squad car. Now I don't know how big the UCLA library is, nor am I all that sure just how far one block is, but I don't think getting him out of there would take all that long.

I hate to tell you this, but when the police are called to investigate an incident, a police officer has the right and in fact the obligation to stop you and question you and ask for ANY form of ID regardless if you were leaving, left, not leaving, plan to leave in 20 min or planning to leave tomorrow. Failure to obey a lawful order from a police officer is against the law.Course, we're not talking about police officers that were called to investigate here, so that point is moot.

Course, we're not talking about police officers that were called to investigate here, so that point is moot.

For the 20th time now THEY WERE FULL POLICEMEN with every power that any other policeman in the State of California has. And yes they were called. No, the point is in no way moot.

But why would the police officers interfere at all if he was leaving? Problem solved! Or is it a crime not to carry ID in USA? :confused:

I hate to tell you this, but when the police are called to investigate an incident, a police officer has the right and in fact the obligation to stop you and question you and ask for ANY form of ID regardless if you were leaving, left, not leaving, plan to leave in 20 min or planning to leave tomorrow. Failure to obey a lawful order from a police officer is against the law.

Well that's just great. I don't think they were called were they?

I'm glad my civil rights have some power here. I don't have to give I.D. if I don't want to, that's called freedom :upyours:

Sorry for posting the OP and abandoning the thread, but it was 6am and I was really pretty damn upset.
Thanks esp. to Sarkhaan for jumping in so quickly.

From the article:



It sounds to me like he's been somewhat sheltered.

That said, based on the facts, I'd say the conduct of the CSO's was outrageous. I am thankful to have much better CSO's at my university. They know how to handle situations with appropriate force rather than overwhelming force.
Certainly. But the fact that it's the worst he's seen makes me wonder if he's not rather sheltered. I've seen worse things than that on television, not to mention things I've seen in the streets of various cities. They unsettle me, sure. But something like that is hardly the worst thing I've seen.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just jaded.
Well, had I witnessed that in person, it certainly would have been the worst thing I've ever seen - in person, not on TV or whatever.

If that makes me sheltered, so be it.

There has been some new video posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emEK7t2m35Q) on youtube, this a news report. It looks like it might be a different bit of footage, but I can't really tell
Did anyone watch that?
I don't really want to, to be honest.

1) disgusting.

- snip -

2) now the crowd is getting bigger... while in and of itself not a threatening event, it does distract the officers and makes a tense situation into one that could explode into violence.

3) while preaching, the officers tell him to stand up. so he had some time to recover, (while he was ranting) and his reply was a hearty "Fuck off!"

- snip -

4) Now with the lack of all other evidence, I will say the officers did NOT use excessive force but did control themselves in a very hostile environment. they may have used more force than necessary, but the Victim wasn't helping his cause any.

1) Why do you start your post with the word "disgusting" when you come to the conclusion that they were not using excessive force? What's disgusting, then?

2) That was not at all what I saw. The crowd didn't even factor in until wayyyyyyy late in the game because all they were were bystanders.
The only thing the crowd did during most of this was gape, except for one girl who was begging relatively soon to stop tasering him.
This was not a situation where there was any tension caused by a hostile crowd. The crowd was a passive entity all throughout until the end when the cops had already dragged him outside the doorway and kept tasering him. Only then, suddenly, a larger group of people rushed forward. They didn't really keep up the momentum, but at least they had gotten moving and didn't completley back down again.

3) Oh my God. Are you serious? After all that happened you expect him to say, what, "Yes sir, of course, thank you officer"?
If I had been so much as a bystander, you bet every second word out of my mouth would have been "fuck".
If a cop can't take someone swearing at him, he has the wrong job.
And if anyone treats anyone like they did and you try and justify their actions with him saying "fuck off" after they repeatedly tasered him for no fucking reason whatsoever, that's just beyond ludicrous.

4) Again - "a very hostile environment"?? THEY MADE IT HOSTILE WITH WHAT THEY DID! It wasn't a hostile environment when they started out, it wasn't even one up to until they were almost through with him.
So it's alright to use excessive force and then justify that with the fact that people got upset because you used excessive force?


Three lads who know their business do not need tasers to remove somebody from a library 99.999% of the time. Or anywhere else, for that matter. He'd be out of there in seconds. This is why I think non-lethal weapons are open to more abuse than lethal, and should not be allowed in the hands of cops on the beat.

oh yeah, and another thing: even if it's proven the student was being completely uncooperative, the cops could have bodily carried him out of the library after cuffing him. tasering him repeatedly after the first time was clearly excessive.
Thank you both so much for pointing that out.


Anyone saying he should have got the point after the first tasering and moved out of the library seems to be missing the point of the taser as a police tool.
Indeed.


Besides you'd only end up getting tazered yourself.
That isn't me justifying not helping it's me saying, that would hurt.
It would, but I think I would have been to fucking mad to think about that beforehand.

Because this
That makes me sick, you can't really say with certainly what you would do in such a situation, but cruelty just makes me so immensely angry that you would have to intervene.
is *exactly* how something like this makes me feel. Exactly.

But why would the police officers interfere at all if he was leaving? Problem solved! Or is it a crime not to carry ID in USA? :confused:

Read the thread. Only students are allowed in the library after 11 and the must have the proper student ID.

Read the thread. Only students are allowed in the library after 11 and the must have the proper student ID.

So what if he was a student and was there several hours before 11 and didn't realise the time? Capitol punishment?

Sorry for posting the OP and abandoning the thread, but it was 6am and I was really pretty damn upset.
Thanks esp. to Sarkhaan for jumping in so quickly.
Don't worry bout it, posting angry and tired would probably make for some poor posting.

Did anyone watch that?
I don't really want to, to be honest.
It's a video of a news report. It has some clips from the video you posted and brief interviews with a campus police officer and a student who was there.

Yea right. Sorry no one or even two officers are going to carry 150-200 lbs of dead weight ANYWHERE let alone up or down several floors of a library. And the police would CERTIANLY would use many more in case the suspect decided that he didnt like being dragged a few blocks. So no, a fairly long distance carry/drag will unquestionably be very painful for the suspect.

I find your response to this very curious.

In England, even bouncers (who are often poorly trained) know of some restraint manoeuvre which allows them to force a person out of a building without causing significant injury.

In England, in such a situation as the library example quoted for this thread, it would simply take a staff member asking the person to leave and threatening to call police. If police were called, the only weapons they would come with for such a situation would be batons, which they wouldn't even have to use - it's a simple threat of arrest for trespassing on private property.

In the unlikely scenario that the police did end up having to force the guy out, and for some reason they did not have grounds for using handcuffs, they would simply use one of the restraint techniques that they are trained in, and that even a single officer could do on a single person in most cases.

Considering your attitude towards this, and the fact that it seems that American police resort to weapons at the first opportunity, I'd love to see them take on English cops, without weapons. They'd most likely be floored in a few seconds.

In any case, no matter how crap cops you are, even two untrained civilians can get one unarmed guy out a library without resorting to weapons. There was no need for even American cops to resort to weapons, no matter how crap they are.

Don't worry bout it, posting angry and tired would probably make for some poor posting.


It's a video of a news report. It has some clips from the video you posted and brief interviews with a campus police officer and a student who was there.
Thanks!

For the 20th time now THEY WERE FULL POLICEMEN with every power that any other policeman in the State of California has. And yes they were called. No, the point is in no way moot.I concede the full policemen point. However, they were not called (things like "routine check" imply that they weren't called to the scene, you know). Also, they should have been aware that they were using an incapacitating device, and that the suspect could well have been unable to get up afterwards.

But why would the police officers interfere at all if he was leaving? Problem solved! Or is it a crime not to carry ID in USA? :confused:

In the US, when the police are called, people are required to provide information as to who they are. Your not required to carry an ID but the police are allowed to detain you while they make an effort to ID you. They can even take you to jail while they fingerprint you in an effort to identify you. This is done because the police have an obligation to see if you have any warrents or are wanted by the police in any other criminal matter. You do not have a Constitutional right to be anonymous to the police.

In the US, when the police are called, people are required to provide information as to who they are. Your not required to carry an ID but the police are allowed to detain you while they make an effort to ID you. They can even take you to jail while they fingerprint you in an effort to identify you. This is done because the police have an obligation to see if you have any warrents or are wanted by the police in any other criminal matter. You do not have a Constitutional right to be anonymous to the police.

They didn't need to ID him there, they could have taken him to the station as soon as he refued to produce ID(to the police, not the CSOs). I still don't see why they didn't just cuff him and carry him out.

In the US, when the police are called, people are required to provide information as to who they are. Your not required to carry an ID but the police are allowed to detain you while they make an effort to ID you. They can even take you to jail while they fingerprint you in an effort to identify you. This is done because the police have an obligation to see if you have any warrents or are wanted by the police in any other criminal matter. You do not have a Constitutional right to be anonymous to the police.The police weren't called, and the ID they were checking for was university ID, and only because people without it aren't allowed in the library at the time. They weren't trying to identify him.

The police weren't called, and the ID they were checking for was university ID, and only because people without it aren't allowed in the library at the time. They weren't trying to identify him.

ok for the TWENTYFIRST TIME NOW. THE CAMPUS SECURITY OFFICER WAS A POLICEMAN. He has the PERFECT right to ask for a student ID, a Drivers licence or ANY OTHER form of identification. The law does not say that he HAS to run it on the computer for warrants. Maybe he just wanted to know the guys name. Either way, the officer was completly within his rights to ask. How can someone with almost 13 THOUSAND posts still try to assert a fact that has been demonstrated otherwise repeatedly and as recently as 3 POSTS ago.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bf/FGBrianDoesHollywood.png/200px-FGBrianDoesHollywood.png

The Policeman might have he right to ask for I.D. the student has a right not to be assaulted. The Police serve us, they can't do as they please.

ok for the TWENTYFIRST TIME NOW. THE CAMPUS SECURITY OFFICER WAS A POLICEMAN. He has the PERFECT right to ask for a student ID, a Drivers licence or ANY OTHER form of identification. The law does not say that he HAS to run it on the computer for warrants. Maybe he just wanted to know the guys name. Either way, the officer was completly within his rights to ask. How can someone with almost 13 THOUSAND posts still try to assert a fact that has been demonstrated otherwise repeatedly and as recently as 3 POSTS ago.

Oh, so they tased him over and over because they wanted to know his name. I wonder what they would have done if he had commietted a serious crime?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bf/FGBrianDoesHollywood.png/200px-FGBrianDoesHollywood.png

The Policeman might have he right to ask for I.D. the student has a right not to be assaulted. The Police serve us, they can't do as they please.

I think you have it opposite. This is a nation of law and order. You cant just come and go onto property your not welcome on (as he was informed of when told to leave) and just do as you please.

I think you have it opposite. This is a nation of law and order. You cant just come and go onto property your not welcome on (as he was informed of when told to leave) and just do as you please.

Nor can police use excessive force in removing you from that property and placing you into custody, nor can they threaten to tase innocent bystaders who asked for their badge numbers.

Nor can police use excessive force in removing you from that property and placing you into custody, nor can they threaten to tase innocent bystaders who asked for their badge numbers.

I agree the comment to the bystanders was inappropriate. Excessive force is of course a subjective judgement however.

I agree the comment to the bystanders was inappropriate. Excessive force is of course a subjective judgement however.

So an officer can use any force he/she wants as long as he/she says it was appropriate? I don't any police force anywhere operates like that.

So an officer can use any force he/she wants as long as he/she says it was appropriate? I don't any police force anywhere operates like that.

I didnt say nor infer that. I said that someone cant just intrude on a property and not leave when told and this was a relevant fact in this situation. Your responce inferred that excessive force in responce was also a fact while im not conceding that point in any way.

that was diabolical :mad:

do those campus police have the same powers of arrest and whatnot as normal police? they should all get charged with assault at the very least, even if the original confrontation was justified the guy was incapacitated when they repeatedly tazered him. i know i'm not the best person to be talking about this, but i would definitely have resisted as well and i have no problem with squaring up to the police if i thought they were out of line.

I didnt say nor infer that. I said that someone cant just intrude on a property and not leave when told and this was a relevant fact in this situation. Your responce inferred that excessive force in responce was also a fact while im not conceding that point in any way.

I tinhk it's pretty clear that the force was excessive. The police officers did not need the student to stand up in order to get him to leave, so tasing him to make him stand up(which is retarded btw) is definately excessive.

do those campus police have the same powers of arrest and whatnot as normal police?

According to what Dissonant Cognition posted in this thread, the ones in California do indeed.

In some other states, according to other posts, they usually don't.

According to what Dissonant Cognition posted in this thread, the ones in California do indeed.

HA! Resisting arrest and obstruction of justice. That bastard deserved what he got, and frankly, I think he should have gotten more.

"Stand up"
"Fuck you!"
"Stand up, or I'll give you a reason not to stand up *bang bang bang* Right in the knees, bitch."

I tinhk it's pretty clear that the force was excessive.

Im glad its clear to you. Its not clear to a good many other honest and well intentioned people.


BTW i live in New York and the Campus Police at Cornell University also have full police powers and carry guns.

HA! Resisting arrest and obstruction of justice. That bastard deserved what he got, and frankly, I think he should have gotten more.

"Stand up"
"Fuck you!"
"Stand up, or I'll give you a reason not to stand up *bang bang bang* Right in the knees, bitch."

I hope to god you never represent our law enforcement, I don't think they could afford the justified lawsuits.

I think you have it opposite. This is a nation of law and order. You cant just come and go onto property your not welcome on (as he was informed of when told to leave) and just do as you please.

Well that's just it. Your saying a Policeman has the right to beat who they like when they like above civil rights. You might like South Africa or China then, has anyone seen that student since he stood in front of a tank?

HA! Resisting arrest and obstruction of justice. That bastard deserved what he got, and frankly, I think he should have gotten more.

"Stand up"
"Fuck you!"
"Stand up, or I'll give you a reason not to stand up *bang bang bang* Right in the knees, bitch."
If it weren't so disgusting, that would have made me crack up. Did you just wake up and come straight here?

Do me the favour and read the replies to your tirades last night before you latch onto something else that misses the point and start spouting the same kind of bull again.

By who the campus police? they are not qualified law enforcement in any way shape or form.

How the fuck do you move after being tased?

Our campus police are fully trained police with authority to arrest if you break any state law on or immediately around campus. Plus they make more than local city cops.

Im glad its clear to you. Its not clear to a good many other honest and well intentioned people.

7 Hits with a tazer? you kidding? I am suprized the man is breathing, and they expected him to get up and move?

Anyone that can expect the average person to get up from that either has no experience or is lying to themselfs

Yes he probably should have been evicted, but that does not give you the right to abuse someone.

Our campus police are fully trained police with authority to arrest if you break any state law on or immediately around campus. Plus they make more than local city cops.

And ours are not ... they make the campus standard wage (starting at 7.50 an hour) and are privately trained.

I've seen people escorted out of the Georgia Tech library before, but that doesn't require even the grabbing of an arm. This is absolutely disgusting police behavior. I didn't read through most of these posts, was there a link available that showed the current situation.

I've seen people escorted out of the Georgia Tech library before, but that doesn't require even the grabbing of an arm. This is absolutely disgusting police behavior. I didn't read through most of these posts, was there a link available that showed the current situation.
No. But since it only hit the news yesterday, google should be your friend.

Well that's just it. Your saying a Policeman has the right to beat who they like when they like above civil rights. You might like South Africa or China then, has anyone seen that student since he stood in front of a tank?

I like all these people that are telling me what im saying when it isnt even CLOSE to what im actually saying. Im saying that the school had a right to kick anyone out of one of thier buildings for any reason. The police and the State and the Federal Government recognize these rights and protect them. A policeman has the right to uphold the law and if someone wont leave willingly then the police have an obligation to forcebly remove them. This isnt a police state. Exactly the opposite. Its the law upholding property rights.

I agree the comment to the bystanders was inappropriate. Excessive force is of course a subjective judgement however.Not giving a bystander asking for their badge number and name their badge number and name is an indication that they knew they were doing something wrong. Threatening to taser a bystander for that is a clear indication that they knew they were doing wrong.

It's ok people, take a look at the kid's name:
Mostafa Tabatabainejad
It was just a brown person. For all we know he was probably a terrorist.

Try saying THAT five times fast...:p

A policeman has the right to uphold the law and if someone wont leave willingly then the police have an obligation to forcebly remove them.
Yes. And at what point did the law get changed to include disproportional use of force to forcibly remove someone?

Not giving a bystander asking for their badge number and name their badge number and name is an indication that they knew they were doing something wrong. Threatening to taser a bystander for that is a clear indication that they knew they were doing wrong.

Your making false assumptions here. Not giving a bystander information right that very second when that bystander demands it is not any violation of any rule. The police officers FIRST obligation is to secure the scene NOT deal with administrative issues with bystanders. Only after the situation was deemed safe and secure by the police should they then have to identify themselves, badge numbers etc. This is NOT an automatic admission of wrong doing. As i said i dont think that threatening others with tasering was right but i dont think a police officer has to drop everything the instant someone asks for thier badge # either. As you can see in the video, the police were still activly engaged in securing the scene while people were screaming at him for his badge #

Yes. And at what point did the law get changed to include disproportional use of force to forcibly remove someone?

He refused to move. Therefore, they made him move. Besides, I am sure they would have been nicer, had he not been giving the :upyours: to the police.

Im glad its clear to you. Its not clear to a good many other honest and well intentioned people.


BTW i live in New York and the Campus Police at Cornell University also have full police powers and carry guns.

I like all these people that are telling me what im saying when it isnt even CLOSE to what im actually saying. Im saying that the school had a right to kick anyone out of one of thier buildings for any reason. The police and the State and the Federal Government recognize these rights and protect them. A policeman has the right to uphold the law and if someone wont leave willingly then the police have an obligation to forcebly remove them. This isnt a police state. Exactly the opposite. Its the law upholding property rights.

You can uphold the law without common assault and having to use a weapon. You are endorsing both.

You can uphold the law without common assault and having to use a weapon. You are endorsing both.

Im unfamiliar with anyone that doesnt expect police to use weapons and/or force when a suspect repeatedly fails to obey a lawful order. Engraved invitations to prison tend to be ineffective.

No, it might be trespassing but nothing in the article indicates that it necessarily was. The rule as cited in the article is that non-students may not remain after 11.00pm, the article actually doesnt state what the case is with students who happen to not have id. If he couldn't prove that he is a student, then he will be considered a NON student. he didn't show his Student ID. no matter what the reason, if he didn't have his id, he couldn't prove he was a student.

No it isnt. He was not fleeing, I did not state he was fleeing, but once the officers arrived, it's to late to just "walk out". the officers do have the right to detain you for qestioning, however, he refused to be detained. it became resisting arrest once the handcuffs were put on and he still refused to cooperate.

the artical does not state that anyone told him he was under arrest. Therefore he was not attempting to avoid being arrested, nor was he offering resistence after having been placed under arrest. he was in cuffs in the video. and read the article again. for your assistance, here is the quote.
Tabatabainejad declined to comment. He was arrested Tuesday night and cited by campus police for resisting and obstructing a police officer and was released.

Refusing to comply with someone's orders is not necessarily resisting arrest or obstructing justice. It is not obstructing justice to refuse to comply with an order to leave a place where you have a legal right to be. Nor is it obstructing justice to then choose to comply with the order to leave. Nor is it resisting arrest. refusal to comply to a POLICE OFFICER'S orders when he tells you to move is resisting.

Which has been well-described in this thread without a single mention of anything that necessarily constitutes resisting arrest or obstructing justice.[QUOTE]err... the officers were telling him to stand up. this was waaaay before the first taser use. they were telling him to get up repeatedly. watch the video.

[QUOTE=Zagat;11959134]Tazors are not intended for use as a punitive device. If there was no intention to arrest then the officers should have accompanied the person to the exit (without touching him) since he was leaving. He wasn't leaving, Please indicate where in the video they show him leaving. they didn't show him trying to leave on his own. the video starts with the officers telling him to get up.

Now I don't know where you live, but here, when someone tells another person to "get up", that would be in one of two situations, one, the person is sleeping and the other person wants that person to wake up. the other situation where that phrase will be used is if the other person is on the ground or sitting, and the person/officer wants said person in either a sitting or standing posistion.

If he was under arrest, or the officers were attempting to arrest him, then he ought to have been asked (before anyone laid a hand on him) to halt and informed he was under arrest. how do you know they didn't? please show me anywhere in the article that they did more than "Grab his arm"
Before he was touched (since he was walking not running or otherwise fleeing) he should have been informed that he was under arrest (and so required to halt). LOL... sorry, please show me in police procedures that they have to do this. and if he was leaving as you so vehmently claim, how do you know the officers did not first ask him to stop, and he didn't.

all we know is that from the video, he was on the ground. the officers say he went limp and refused to move, no other witness can contradict that. and if he was thrown to the ground or even tripped, you would think SOMEONE would mention that.

That having apparently not happened, he was not resisting arrest, and in reasonably resisting assault he was obstructing justice either.you mean YOU THINK THAT HAVING APPARENTLY NOT HAPPENED. funny, in the video the officers were telling him REPEATEDLY to get up before the first taser use and he REFUSED. that is resisting.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

With video:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/16/ucla-student-tasered-in-library/

A student at a UCLA library refused to show his student ID.
The campus police dragged him out, tasering him repeatedly.

The video is almost 7 minutes long.
It killed me to see that they would actually do that, that they would taser someone who was not even threatening to attack them. Again and again and again. While telling him to get up. How is he supposed to get up if you keep tasering him?

And it killed me almost more to see group dynamic in action - the other students, standing around, and only finally, finally, getting up the guts to step up.

I know that one is tempted to glorify one's own righteousness in things like this, but I'm positive I would have stepped in.

I'm not used to seeing things like this. I'm actually shaking now.
It's almost 6 am and I really should go to bed and really, really shouldn't have watched this. I feel sick.

Those officers should lose their badges, and be arrested and charged with assult.

He refused to move. Therefore, they made him move. Besides, I am sure they would have been nicer, had he not been giving the :upyours: to the police.

Tazing is deigned to STOP someone from moving in any meaningfully manner (which is why it is useful)

How is applying a wepon designed to drop someone to the ground going to make them move? I would figure it would make him stop moving, which makes their statements afterwords even more idiotic

Im unfamiliar with anyone that doesnt expect police to use weapons and/or force when a suspect repeatedly fails to obey a lawful order. Engraved invitations to prision tend to be ineffective.

Ok, I submit, one unarmed student, call out the national guard :sniper:

So now we just beat the crap out of anyone that doesn't obey requests.

Turn without signalling, pow.
60 in a 55, pow
not keeping off the grass(lawn), pow
late for work, pow

Actually that's a great idea :p Taser sales are on the up, I better buy stock.

Someone said this on the youtube comment page and i thought it was amusing.

Kids have been getting kicked out of libraries since time immemorial; today they are tortured with electricity if they don't do it quickly enough.

Im unfamiliar with anyone that doesnt expect police to use weapons and/or force when a suspect repeatedly fails to obey a lawful order. Engraved invitations to prision tend to be ineffective.

Yeah... and by lawful order you mean leaving? which he was doing...
or you mean standing up? when he was unable to...
or maybe you just mean he wasnt going fast enough?

And quite frankly, i dont expect a police officer to shoot me for loitering, or maybe restraint is exclusive to europe....

He wasnt any threat, he wasnt breaking any law, he was even doing what they said...

Not that i think anything will happen as a result, the media will play it down and nothing will happen to the officers....

Yahoo says he now is claiming that he refused to show his ID because he thought he was being profiled. I'm thinking he wanted some reaction. Like the guy that tried to get past the security of that senator and was taken down then cried abuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned

Yahoo says he now is claiming that he refused to show his ID because he thought he was being profiled. I'm thinking he wanted some reaction. Like the guy that tried to get past the security of that senator and was taken down then cried abuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned


well if he was testing them he sort of proved his point, now, didn't he. police are barbaric, especially when you are brown.

if he was testing for a reaction it does not excuse the violence and cruelty of that reaction.

Ok, I submit, one unarmed student, call out the national guard :sniper:

So now we just beat the crap out of anyone that doesn't obey requests.


Now your exagerating then following up with a conclusion that i didnt make. Trespassing is a crime. It doesnt matter if its you alone being unarmed or a band of 15 thugs with black masks. The police didnt beat the crap out of someone because they didnt obey requests. The police subdued someone who was disobeying a LAWFUL ORDER. The policeman was required by law to remove this person after it was determined that he was no longer wanted there by the people in charge of the building. (For whatever reason). If the person isnt willing to leave despite lawfully being told to do so, then force is the only option left. It really boils down to how much force and what kind of force. Id argue that in terms of damage to his body, stress to his joints etc, hog tying him and dragging him many hundreds of feet would injure him more so then a taser would in the long run. We can agree that the police had a right to forcably remove someone who wont leave on thier own. It just boils down to what would look worse on a camera, a guy kicking and screaming while 5 cops manhandle a guy and drag him kicking and screaming and getting scuffed up bloody and bruised on the way or taser zaps. Its all the same concept just a different flavor.

well if he was testing them he sort of proved his point, now, didn't he. police are barbaric, especially when you are brown.

if he was testing for a reaction it does not excuse the violence and cruelty of that reaction.

Now show me a clear video that completely supports the students statement in opposition to the police statements.

Show me video showing that he WAS alledgedly leaving w/o problems and didn't struggle w/ the police from the time he was stopped.

The guy was a psycho or on drugs. The cops did the right thing. He was behaving in a way that indicated a threat of violence to the cops or innocent bystanders.

Maybe next time Mostafa Tabatabainejad will show authority a little respect.

And the rest of you guys whining about it should do a couple of cop shifts in Watts and see how your attitude matures.

Mostafa is lucky he wasn't pulling that shit in the Conservatiana sports bar and grill, or he'd be getting a lobotomy in my dungeons.

He is required to show ID REGARDLESS of why HE thought the police were asking him for it. Its not his right to determine why or why not an officer wants to see identification.

I dont understand how this is relevant to the point.

You don't? Then let me explain, the police are not uncorruptable, and as humans can be led astray like the rest of us. In other words don't think that because they are the police that they nesscacerly have your saftey or best interests at heart.

They could have easily carried him out if there were five of them. Hell, if he just went limp two officers could have carried him out, maybe just one.

5 pigs for one student, yeah they should have just rushed him, gota be better than electric shockin huh!