NationStates Jolt Archive

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While I disagree with much of his economic policy, he was nevertheless an intelligent man, and if you look at many of his ideas, supported a good quality of life for the 'common man'.

Friedman's work in breaking the death grip Keynesian economic policies had on the US was absolutely vital for the rapid expansion and growth of the US economy since the late eighties. His work was vital, and we all live better because of it.

oh dear.

This is rather unfortunate. Milton Friedman did some amazing work in the field of economics.

Well, he was a mighty foe. I will give him that.

Who?

Who?
Effectively the father of monetarism. Think Thatcher/Regan.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Effectively the father of monetarism. Think Thatcher/Regan.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok... so, I should be shuddering in disgust since this will no doubt remind me of Harris and his 'Common Sense Revolution'?!

Ok... so, I should be shuddering in disgust since this will no doubt remind me of Harris and his 'Common Sense Revolution'?!

That name rings a bell. Wasn't he once the Premier of Ontario or something?

Wiki shall tell me more!!!

EDIT: Haha! I'm right!! I think that's pretty good on the general ignorance front, considering I'm a Brit:D

That name rings a bell. Wasn't he once the Premier of Ontario or something?

Wiki shall tell me more!!!

He is more hated than Bob Rae (both former Ontario Premiers).

He is more hated than Bob Rae (both former Ontario Premiers).

Funny. Over here we, with the possible exceptions of Thatcher and Blair (hiss!), don't have Prime Ministers you can actually hate. Most are rather like Eden, useless, or like Major, boring.

Funny. Over here we, with the possible exceptions of Thatcher and Blair (hiss!), don't have Prime Ministers you can actually hate. Most are rather like Eden, useless, or like Major, boring.
Canadians have it better, we can actually hate our Premiers and Prime Ministers! They are real assholes! :D

He was truly a great man, and a great economist. I rank him right up there with the likes of Adam Smith -- he positively trounced outdated socialist policies which were like a dead weight around the neck of the West, dragging them into the dust. His visionary policies allowed for the rapid expansion of various Western economies, and we all live better because of it.

Friedman's work in breaking the death grip Keynesian economic policies had on the US was absolutely vital for the rapid expansion and growth of the US economy since the late eighties. His work was vital, and we all live better because of it.

HAHAHAHAHA.


Anyway, quite sad.

Canadians have it better, we can actually hate our Premiers and Prime Ministers! They are real assholes! :D
*Throws pie at Harper*

Eh, I don't know if I wanted to admire Friedman. Yes, I agree with his economic standpoints, but I got the feeling that he was pro-ONE, which I violently oppose.

*Throws pie at Harper*

Damn, I really wish we could do that...

Friedman's work in breaking the death grip Keynesian economic policies had on the US was absolutely vital for the rapid expansion and growth of the US economy since the late eighties. His work was vital, and we all live better because of it.

he positively trounced outdated socialist policies which were like a dead weight around the neck of the West, dragging them into the dust. His visionary policies allowed for the rapid expansion of various Western economies, and we all live better because of it.

Either one of you is copying the other (probably MTAE copying Andaluciae, by the post order) or you're both getting your talking points from the same source.

Whichever it is, I find it amusing.

He was truly a great man, and a great economist. I rank him right up there with the likes of Adam Smith -- he positively trounced outdated socialist policies which were like a dead weight around the neck of the West, dragging them into the dust. His visionary policies allowed for the rapid expansion of various Western economies, and we all live better because of it.

Actually, I prefer to view him as an enemy of the People of all nations. His theories may have resulted for prosperty for some, but have greatly increased the general social misery. My hat is off to him. No one else has ever waged an all out war against the common people like he did and gained so much admiration for it.

Damn, I really wish we could do that...

Sure you can. (http://www.alpieda.org/)

I thank Mr. Freidman for the incredible amout of fuel that he poured into increasing the libertarian movement, I regret he had to file himself into the 2-parties to make a contribution. He was certainly a more practical rebuttal to Rand, and I feel he made a greater contribution to the movement than she.

I really dont think he and MTAE would have gotten along, Or that MTAE actually knows who he is anyway.

I really dont think he and MTAE would have gotten along, Or that MTAE actually knows who he is anyway.

Are you scared to admit that you hold the same position as I do on a particular issue because of your pre-conceived notion of me as a troll? I actually admire Dr. Friedman.

In order to mourn his death, let us all listen to the Milton Friedman choir in remembrance of his life and beliefs.

Choir (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6407847019713273360&q=milton+friedman)

He's dead? Why isn't being reported on any news website?

He's dead? Why isn't being reported on any news website?It got reported on ARD 3 hours ago, but that's German, so it probably won't do you any good.

He's dead? Why isn't being reported on any news website?
Oh, here is a site. Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_bi_ge/obit_friedman_12)

Well, he lived three times as long as the average Generalite.

Oh, here is a site. Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_bi_ge/obit_friedman_12)

oh thanks. 94, thats pretty good. to bad his time was up, he was a good economist.

May he rest in peace.

Now I am sad. His economic . . . well I can't possibly say it much better than Andaluciae or MeansToAnEnd, so I won't try. Great man.

Are you scared to admit that you hold the same position as I do on a particular issue because of your pre-conceived notion of me as a troll? I actually admire Dr. Friedman.

Oh, not at all. My views are not at all beholden to the counter-assurance of you not holding them, you have far from that important of an impact on my life. Soheran was not the only one who noticed how similiar your post was to an earlier one- even in order fromat- and from the many threads of yours I have read, I can honestly say you and Friedman had very different goals in mind.

Noooooooooooo! (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8LEE6T00.htm)

I'm genuinely upset. Rest in Peace, Milton Friedman.

Let me ask you a quick question though, you are an actual college student in economics, right? Is John Kenneth Galbraith a traditional view in economics, at least in the sense that most view traditional?
Most definitely not.

Even in the times when Keynesian economics ruled, Galbraith was different because he wasn't into the number-crunching.

He was a great writer and speaker, a real PR man. No wonder that he worked closely with quite a few presidents.

But he wasn't much of a fan of economics. He said they didn't talk enough about "power", so that's all he ever talked about. He wrote a lot about some sort of massive conspiracy of big corporations running the place and so on, and all his life he pushed for the idea of price controls (he was in charge of them during WWII, so that's why he liked them). But as far as contributions to economics as a discipline are concerned...no, he didn't really do much at all in that respect.

If you want lefty economists, there are much better ones around, like Keynes (although his lefty-ism (http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch24.htm) isn't as strong as people think) and especially Stiglitz. And then there's Amartya Sen, of course.

In modern times though, Friedman definitely was the best one of them, alongside Keynes and Lucas.

Actually, I prefer to view him as an enemy of the People of all nations. His theories may have resulted for prosperty for some, but have greatly increased the general social misery. My hat is off to him. No one else has ever waged an all out war against the common people like he did and gained so much admiration for it.
Friedman made Chile what it is today, the most prosperous and economically free nation in South America.
Ok... so, I should be shuddering in disgust since this will no doubt remind me of Harris and his 'Common Sense Revolution'?!
Harris did good things for Ontario. People remember him poorly because his party (lead by Pink Ernie) completely destroyed Ontario after he left, running up huge deficits and borking Ontario's economy for years to come (and McGuinty isn't helping).

Harris followed the pattern established by Ralph Klein in Alberta, and look how well Alberta is doing now. Sure, they have oil money, but they're only in a position to enjoy that money because they cleaned up their affairs in the mid-90s when oil was basically worthless.

Most definitely not.

Even in the times when Keynesian economics ruled, Galbraith was different because he wasn't into the number-crunching.

He was a great writer and speaker, a real PR man. No wonder that he worked closely with quite a few presidents.

But he wasn't much of a fan of economics. He said they didn't talk enough about "power", so that's all he ever talked about. He wrote a lot about some sort of massive conspiracy of big corporations running the place and so on, and all his life he pushed for the idea of price controls (he was in charge of them during WWII, so that's why he liked them). But as far as contributions to economics as a discipline are concerned...no, he didn't really do much at all in that respect.

If you want lefty economists, there are much better ones around, like Keynes (although his lefty-ism (http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch24.htm) isn't as strong as people think) and especially Stiglitz. And then there's Amartya Sen, of course.

In modern times though, Friedman definitely was the best one of them, alongside Keynes and Lucas.
That is what I thought on Galbraith! Our stupid news sources said that he was traditional(we both had the same article)! What bullshit!:mad: Sorry about that, I just don't like it when people are so blatantly wrong.

Keynes, although, his work pushed the importance of the state, actually agreed with the ideas of limited government, I remember that he stated his agreement with Hayek's work "The Road to Serfdom", "In my opinion it is a grand book...Morally and philosophically I find myself in agreement with virtually the whole of it: and not only in agreement with it, but in deeply moved agreement". He is seen as far-left because of his opponents, like in "The Failure of the New Economics" by Henry Hazlitt, Hazlitt argues a few times that Keynes hates freedom, as well, Keynes's ideas have been used by statist left-wingers as economic concepts supporting their ideas.

Friedman was definitely one of the greatest economic minds of our times. I almost wonder who might have the ability to show the world economics as he did.

He's dead? Why isn't being reported on any news website?

Here's one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6156098.stm

He's in a better place now, and the world is all the better for his having lived.

http://www.mises.org/story/2393

Europa Maxima sent me this. It's quite a good little eulogy.

I never met the man, and I have nothing to go on but what I've read by him, but I'll say this: I honestly believe he knew what he was talking about.

He was truly a great man, and a great economist. I rank him right up there with the likes of Adam Smith -- he positively trounced outdated socialist policies which were like a dead weight around the neck of the West, dragging them into the dust. His visionary policies allowed for the rapid expansion of various Western economies, and we all live better because of it.



Whichever it is, I find it amusing.


I was thinking that some people should actually read more Adam Smith. First, to find out that socialism was largely a reaction to individuals like Adam Smith; Smith did plenty of "trouncing," just not of socialism. Second, to find out that Adam Smith was not necessarily of the "market über alles" pursuasion that his modern advocates seem to like to claim; included among those Smith "trounced" was the big business of his day. Something especially important to note, and we'd all live better because of it.

I was thinking that some people should actually read more Adam Smith. First, to find out that socialism was largely a reaction to individuals like Adam Smith; Smith did plenty of "trouncing," just not of socialism. Second, to find out that Adam Smith was not necessarily of the "market über alles" pursuasion that his modern advocates seem to like to claim; included among those Smith "trounced" was the big business of his day. Something especially important to note, and we'd all live better because of it.
Hmm.... I thought that socialism was a reaction to the larger collections of individuals put together by urbanization and the fact that the conditions were unpleasant and unequal. I know that Marxism was a reaction to Smith and others like him as Marx just took current economic thinking and twisted it, but I didn't think that socialism itself was a reaction to Smith and other economists but rather a reaction to the environment.

That is definitely true, Smith was a bit of a moderate, he believed in progressive taxation and was afraid of big corporations quashing workers and oppressing them.

It's good that he's finally dead. Keeping him alive was undoubtedly uneconomical. Party at mine tonight, everyone. Bring your own drinks.

Friedman made Chile what it is today, the most prosperous and economically free nation in South America.

Wow, a country where economic freedom exists for only the top 10 percent of the population, where the majority of the people live in perpetual fear of unemployment and ruin? A country where the threat of another ruinous military coup by right wing neo-liberal generals who happen to be big fans of Milton Friedman? He did that? Wow, he really is a great guy.

I'm going to go puke now. :rolleyes:

A different view (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_adams/2006/11/post_650.html) on Friedman, and a far more accurate one, to my mind, than the glory that's been bestowed on him in this thread.

And Friedman's one success? In 1942, during world war two, Friedman actually went to work for the US government. While there he helped design the payroll tax that in Britain is known as PAYE, Pay As You Earn, and in the US as withholding tax, the system that allows the government to administer the taking of income tax directly from salaries and pay packets. Unlike everything else he argued for, withholding tax was withstood the test of time and is in use all around the world. It was the best thing that Keynesian-style government could ever have wished for, and Friedman bitterly regretted it. In his memoirs he wrote:

"It never occurred to me at the time that I was helping to develop machinery that would make possible a government that I would come to criticize severely as too large, too intrusive, too destructive of freedom. Yet, that is precisely what I was doing. [My wife] Rose has repeatedly chided me over the years about the role that I played in making possible the current overgrown government we both criticize so strongly."

Rest in peace Milton Friedman, big government's best friend.

I know that Marxism was a reaction to Smith and others like him as Marx just took current economic thinking and twisted it, but I didn't think that socialism itself was a reaction to Smith and other economists but rather a reaction to the environment.


This is probably true; at any rate, what I've read of Smith's most famous work was a "trounching" of merchantilism, the "big business" politics of the day, but not really of socialism (since I think one can argue that socialism didn't really get going until Marx came along, after Smith.)

That is definitely true, Smith was a bit of a moderate, he believed in progressive taxation and was afraid of big corporations quashing workers and oppressing them.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Smith was a communis....oh, wait...





:p :D

May he R.I.P.

I feel a "What song should Refused Party Program play while dancing on Freidman's grave?" thread coming on...

I feel a "What song should Refused Party Program play while dancing on Freidman's grave?" thread coming on...
Why do you want to dance on his grave?

Pity the fucker didn't die years back.

Well, one less 'free market' wanker has snuffed it, can only be good news IMHO.

Hope his 'ideas' rot as fast as his stinking corpse.

Pity the fucker didn't die years back.

Well, one less 'free market' wanker has snuffed it, can only be good news IMHO.

Hope his 'ideas' rot as fast as his stinking corpse.
I find it amusing that those who are such staunch defenders of tolerance and respect seem to exhibit it the least in this thread. I won't be rejoicing when Mr. Chomsky, Mr. Moore or any of the other individuals popular with the left pass away, and yet it seems that to expect such dignified conduct here is somehow absurd.

I am pleased that so many people who disagreed with Mr. Friedman were willing to either put that aside or not visit the thread, and fortunately I have a solution for those who are still looking for someone to attack:

I believe that free markets create the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

Now please, I have no problem with you berating me, but if you can't say something nice about the man who just died, don't say anything at all.

I won't be rejoicing when Mr. Chomsky, Mr. Moore or any of the other individuals popular with the left pass away, and yet it seems that to expect such dignified conduct here is somehow absurd.
Except that Mr. Friedman wasn't just a populist like those two. For economics, he was a Stephen Hawking, nay, a Max Planck.

People too often seem under the impression that he simply walked around yelling "let the market rule". That's bullshit. He was a professional economist, a scientist. He developed dozens of concepts, invented new theories and founded a school of economics that ultimately led to the creation of many new, even some lefty, directions in economics.

The world lost a great mind, and regardless of politics, we should mourn him.

*snip*

Between 1970 and 1990 Chile changed dramatically. In 1970, when Eduardo Frei transferred the presidency to Salvador Allende, Chile had enjoyed six years as the beneficiary of worldwide prosperity and record prices for its copper exports. Chile was the second largest recipient of foreign aid per capita. Yet only half the homes in the country had inside bathrooms. In 1990, after Pinochet — despite 16 years as an international pariah and the target of trade boycotts, disinvestment and foreign aid cutoffs — about nine out of ten Chilean homes had them.

After Frei, 82.2 babies per thousand died in infancy. After Pinochet, that figure fell to 17. Reduced infant mortality plus better nutrition and sanitation increased life expectancy from 63.6 years in 1970 to 71.8 in 1990. In 1973 the Chilean government had 650,000 employees. By 1989 the Chilean people had only 157,871 central government employees to support and to obey. By 1992 polls showed that people of all classes rated their satisfaction with bureaucracy as 5.2 out of 7.

Chile's not nearly the backwater you think it is. It's current GDP per capita is $11,900. Its inflation rate is only 3.1%. It's growth rate is 6.3%. 18.2% of the population is below the poverty line - a fairly high number, but nothing compared to many other Latin American countries. Wealth distribution is very uneven and there are very real and visible inequalities, but on the whole, the country's doing very well, all things considered. Thanks to Friedman, Chile is moving rapidly out of the ranks of Third World nations and into the First World.

Except that Mr. Friedman wasn't just a populist like those two. For economics, he was a Stephen Hawking, nay, a Max Planck.

People too often seem under the impression that he simply walked around yelling "let the market rule". That's bullshit. He was a professional economist, a scientist. He developed dozens of concepts, invented new theories and founded a school of economics that ultimately led to the creation of many new, even some lefty, directions in economics.

The world lost a great mind, and regardless of politics, we should mourn him.
I agree completely. I honestly just couldn't think any left-wing intellectuals off of the top of my head. I'm not saying they don't exist, but Marx, Gramsci and Weber are already dead. Perhaps I could have used Stiglitz?