NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I begin I just want to say that I'm not saying no one was killed by the Nazis, that would be foolish and I'm no fool. However I do question the number of people killed. I have my doubts that 6 million jews were killed. The numbers of total killed change all the time so where is this "proof" that 6 million were killed?


Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.

Why do you think that because you have become Muslim, that you now have to be suspicious of Jews?

I see a ban for anti-Semitism on the horizon.

Before I begin I just want to say that I'm not saying no one was killed by the Nazis, that would be foolish and I'm no fool. However I do question the number of people killed. I have my doubts that 6 million jews were killed. The numbers of total killed change all the time so where is this "proof" that 6 million were killed? That number is equal to the amount of jews living in the US, which is a lot of people. If it were really that many people, there wouldn't be that many jews in the world yet the number of jews is large and growing. I think the jews exaggerated the numbers killed to gain world smpathy and support.

Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.

ok honestly you type of people are jsut sick, and your not worth even arguing agaisnt.


Don't feed the trolls people.

What happened to you? You've become so... so... disappointing.

yet the number of jews is large and growing.

That's called reproduction, dear.

Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.You won't be getting it because:
I think the jews exaggerated the numbers killed to gain world smpathy and support. If you're right, you can no doubt prove that data that lead to the 11 million victim (of those, 6 million Jews) estimate was manipulated and that it was manipulated by "the Jews".

What happened to you? You've become so... so... disappointing.

I'm just looking for proof here.

I honestly dont think it was 6million. The original estimate was 4 million, and that sounded more likely given populations at the time. However knocking off a couple million is still genocide and still requires memory of such an atrocity.

I'm just looking for proof here.
You claim it was less so you have to proof that.

I'm just looking for proof here.But why are you looking for proof for the widely accepted number instead of your insinuation? Why doesn't that one need proof?

I honestly dont think it was 6million. The original estimate was 4 million, and that sounded more likely given populations at the time. However knocking off a couple million is still genocide and still requires memory of such an atrocity.

uh...yeah, what wtf are you talking about "populations at the time", around 60 million were lost world wide during the corse of World War two.

Before I begin I just want to say that I'm not saying no one was killed by the Nazis, that would be foolish and I'm no fool. However I do question the number of people killed. I have my doubts that 6 million jews were killed. The numbers of total killed change all the time so where is this "proof" that 6 million were killed?


Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.

Have you always been this anti-Semitic and inflammatory, or is it just me?

Anyway, even if fewer than six million were killed, does that make it any more acceptable or any less wrong?

EDIT: Good call on the sarcastic quotations around the word "Holocaust", by the way. Really underscores your dispassionate and unbiased drive for the truth. :rolleyes:

Here's a better idea, why don't you prove that it wasn't that many?

Besides, the only reason you would ask NationStates Gen for proof rather than consulting proper sources is because you know people on an Internet forum won't be able to come up with much, and then you can go "ha! see it was a lie!"

Personally, I don't care what the figures were, racism is either right or wrong and the exact details of history won't change that.

I'm just looking for proof here.

No, I'm not just talking about this thread - I'm talking about you across several threads. This new... thing... you're projecting, it's very ugly, and reflects in that fashion on you.

Pity.

The numbers are from the Nazi's records. They kept very meticulous records of who they killed.

What happened to you? You've become so... so... disappointing.
Seriously, I was just thinking the same thing, you use to be decent and now you start posting stuff like this.

But why are you looking for proof for the widely accepted number instead of your insinuation? Why doesn't that one need proof?

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.

Why do you think that because you have become Muslim, that you now have to be suspicious of Jews?

He's not improving the already dismal image of his faith, thats for sure.

Guys, cool off.

I've heard the six million thing a lot and I've never seen it sourced. Given the usual levels of proof required here it does seem a little odd. I'm insinuating nothing, just looking for more than a number.

Whether it's six dozen or six billion, the sheer nature and direction of the killing was horriffic, easily matching the Rwandan genocide and anything in the 'Wild West'. I'm just, curious I guess.

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.
Earth is calling, it wants to know when you come back.

No, I'm not just talking about this thread - I'm talking about you across several threads. This new... thing... you're projecting, it's very ugly, and reflects in that fashion on you.

Pity.

what are you talking about?

He's not improving the already dismal image of his faith, thats for sure.

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.

I'm not even sure why some people have something against the Jews,it's moronic racism and really has to stop.
And I'm reasonably sure the Jews are not "painting themselves" as a sort of favourite victim.Whether or not the estimates are wrong,it's irrevelant-millions of Jews still died along with other people,and it was still an atrocity that has to be remembered.
As to use the old phrase,lest we forget.

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.

Why can't you leave Judaism out of anything?

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.

It was the perfect plan. One million jews march themselves into ovens and gas chambers and the remaining jews mark up that number by 600%. They were the perfect victim.

The numbers are from the Nazi's records. They kept very meticulous records of who they killed.

Quoting, because you either missed it or ignored it.

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.
And yet here you are, acting like the slaughter of millions is an event worthy of suspicion rather than remembrance and respect.

what are you talking about?

I'll be upfront about it: you've become this anti-Semitic little twit. It's a shame. Please, improve - do not slide further.

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. Which is why I'm not setting any in front of you. You're not looking for proof.The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.Now, let's assume for a moment this unproven statement was true. How does that disprove the figure itself?

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.

No,it has a bad image because a few fundamentalists decide to speak up a little too loud.People like Al-Qaida give Islam a bad name.And I'm not even sure his religion has much to do with this anyway.

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.

You just said it does not have a bad image ... but it does have a bad image

Those are contradictory terms.

Contrary to your wish people are going to see a reflection of the historically negative view many many people of your faith have about Jews and see you as just another example.

Current estimates, based on Nazi war records and official government documents from various countries, place the death toll of the Holocaust at anywhere from 10 million (a conservative figure) to 26 million people.

The sobering fact about the Holocaust is how close the Nazis came to total victory. In such countries as Poland, which, before World War II, still included parts of the Ukraine and Belarus, the Jewish death toll surpassed 90 percent.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1677.html
The estimated number of Jews that were killed is 6,029,500.
http://library.thinkquest.org/26742/death.html

Much of the information about the holocaust comes from the records of the nazis who committed it.

Why do you think that because you have become Muslim, that you now have to be suspicious of Jews?
Pretty sad isn't it.

It always seems that the converts are the ones who become the worst fundies. "Born Again" in Allah, Christ or whatever...yuck.

The numbers are from the Nazi's records. They kept very meticulous records of who they killed.

I think this is a good source. But I'm not sure if they have recorded everything.

The people they murderd in KZs may be in the Nazi files. But I'm not sure what's with all the yews they shot immedeatly in the Sovjetunion.

But the 6 Mio. seems to be an accepted estimation. Perhaps you should ask a real historian how they make such estimations.

Another fact that makes it difficult: Many jews may be killed through bombs as they weren't allow to get in the bunkers, or they commited suicide, or they died of illnesses because they hadn't proper medication, etc. To get an exact number like 6 324 291 Jews were killed is simply impossible.

But I don't think, that this is really important. If it were only 3 Mio. Jews killed ore even 10 Mio. - it is the same horrible crime.

Pretty sad isn't it.

It always seems that the converts are the ones who become the worst fundies. "Born Again" in Allah, Christ or whatever...yuck.

I'm a born again Christian.I have nothing against Jews.Or Muslims.Or Buddhists.Or Hindus.In fact,I'm not really prejudiced at all.Don't generalise.

Last time I heard, 11 million PEOPLE died in the holocaust, not just six million jews.

I personally hate how on wikipedia holocaust revisionism automatically redirects to holocaust denial, if theres nothing to hide then let rational argument over the numbers take place.

Also the nazis burnt most of their paperwork on numbers before the soviets and allies entered the camps, so maybe we'll never have an objective figure

why can't we leave Islam out of this? Btw, my faith does not have a dismal image. It only has a bad image by those who don't understand it.

Why should we keep you religion out of it when you are painting a picture that only deals with peopl eof the jewish faith? You are making the holocaust seem like an EBUL Jewish plot, even though there are people from all sorts of different backgrounds that were involved, not just Jewish people.

You want proof? Using fucking google. Too lazy to go there yourself? Here (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-28,GGGL:en&q=proof+of+holocaust)

And going back to your faith, Islam is experiencing a rapid growth in holocaust deniers, started by hate filled Imams that want to take away any sympathy for Israel, in order to get the whole world against them to destroy them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
or
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-28,GGGL:en&q=muslims+deny+holocaust

you pick. read the source.

ktxbi

Before I begin I just want to say that I'm not saying no one was killed by the Nazis, that would be foolish and I'm no fool. However I do question the number of people killed. I have my doubts that 6 million jews were killed. The numbers of total killed change all the time so where is this "proof" that 6 million were killed?


Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.

Why do you think that because you have become Muslim, that you now have to be suspicious of Jews?

I see a ban for anti-Semitism on the horizon.

If you don't deny that some large number of Jews was killed, what difference does the actual number make? This sounds very much like an anti-Semitic proposition with a thin cover of "I'm just looking for proof" whitewash on it. And I agree with Ardee, why the knee-jerk anti-Jewishness since you converted? I thought Islam was a faith of peace and brotherhood, and respect for the People of the Book?

Adolf Eichmann said that there were about 6 million Jews killed. I'd say the head of the SS and the man who managed the death camps is a pretty reputable source. I'd also like to mention that this estimate was given during a trial in Israel. And that's just Jews, to say nothing of the Gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, prisoners of war, Poles, Serbs, Soviet citizens and other citizens in German-occupied regions. We're probably talking up to between 8 and 11 million, and that estimate has kept climbing as more and more evidence is either discovered or declassified.

I could list dozens of more sources if you'd like.

Widely accepted by who? Have you seen the proof it was that many, or do you just go by blind faith? This is my point, everyone is so scared to question anything about the "holocuast" that they just accept everything they hear about it. The jews use this to paint themselves as everyones favourite victim.

When you repeatedly use the quotation marks you mark yourself out as a denier rather than a revisionist.

Quoting, because you either missed it or ignored it.

Ta (missed it)

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1677.html

http://library.thinkquest.org/26742/death.html

Much of the information about the holocaust comes from the records of the nazis who committed it.

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?

I don't know exactly how many people, Jews or otherwise, were killed in the Holocaust. Six million Jews, 12 million or so people total, and probably one metric assload of Communists is a pretty good estimate. Since the Nazis' records weren't perfect, we won't really know for sure in our lifetimes. So there won't be some kind of figure that comes out that says, "There were exactly 11,758,492 people killed in the Holocaust; of those, 5,790,874 were Jews. Now shut the hell up about the statistics of the whole thing and learn from it."

One figure I hear recited an awful lot is that 1.6 million people total died in Auschwitz and its satellite death camps. That's Auschwitz alone, people. I am well aware that Auschwitz was the mother, father, and evil stepmother of death camps, as far as the Nazis go, but the Holocaust factors that in just as well as it factors in the people who were forced to dig ditches by the Einsatzgruppen, who then shot the ditchdiggers and threw their bodies into them. Not exactly the model of evil efficiency that Auschwitz was, but the Nazis took what they could get.

Jeez, it's times like these we need to go over all the counter-arguments to Holocaust denial.

"The Jews just made it up to get sympathy!" Oh sure, all those poor, guilt-ridden Jews would have come out and said, "Holocaust? Pshaw. We were just on a camping trip and the fire for our weenie roast got out of hand. Yes, of course the hot dogs were kosher, now quit kvetching. We made that whole thing up because Hitler didn't give us that tax cut he promised. Sheesh. get over it." Has anyone come out with a story like that? OK, maybe some idiot somewhere did. Are the survivors coming out en masse with it? Hardly. Given 60 years, if the Holocaust were a lie, enough people who claimed to survive it would come out and say so.

"But the 6 million figure is exaggerated! Only about 300,000 Jews died!" Yeah, 300,000 died at Auschwitz alone. In the first month and a half it was opened. If the Ottomans could find time in their busy schedules to round up Armenians from their villages and murder 1.5 million or so of them during World War I, when the most advanced things people had were Howitzers, then a showing of 300,000 dead Jews by the Nazis in WW2, who have Blitzkrieg, Einsatzgruppen, Zyklon-B, and Panzers at their disposal, is beyond pathetic. They probably killed 300,000 people by accident with all the advanced technology they were sporting.

"But David Irving said..." David Irving said a lot of stuff. He also said he wasn't a Holocaust denier or an anti-Semite. He must be a pretty severe case of both if a judge actually ruled that he was both.

"But there's no proof!" The Nazis kept records of deaths, and a lot of it is completely insane. They would list people's causes of death as things such as "Burst Appendix" when the families knew that that person had their appendix removed before going off to the camps. That coupled with all the starved, worked-half-to-death people at the camps that the Allies liberated and saw with their very own eyes tells us that there was a lot of foul play on the Nazis' part.

Denial of the Holocaust is offensive and illogical. It's hard to tell which it is more of. Frankly, one of the Ten Commandments of NSG should be "Thou shalt not deny the Holocaust, lest thou be mocked as an illogical Nazi." Being a Nazi around here is OK. Being illogical is unforgivable. Being both is batshit insane.

The numbers are from the Nazi's records. They kept very meticulous records of who they killed.

Thats the same thing I was to believe. Incredible- efficiency in extermination. They had quotas and quality control systems in place too.

Its chilling and I bet somewhere in the future, people further removed will actually have trouble believing it happened.

Adolf Eichmann said that there were about 6 million Jews killed. I'd say the head of the SS and the man who managed the death camps is a pretty reputable source. I'd also like to mention that this estimate was given during a trial in Israel.

I could list dozens of more estimates if you'd like.

Do you have a quote by him from a reputable source?

In fact,I'm not really prejudiced at all.

That is the biggest prejudice of all, to think oneself devoid of prejudice.

Commiserations about the "rebirth," though.

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?
As far as you know =/= as far as somebody else knows

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?

That would make the real death toll larger, not smaller.

Pretty sad isn't it.

It always seems that the converts are the ones who become the worst fundies. "Born Again" in Allah, Christ or whatever...yuck.

sometimes, when people adopt a new faith, they may feel the yhave to try harder.
Or maybe trying to make the new faith support their own feelings or ignorance.

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?
What difference does it make? Why is the precise number so important? All that matters is that millions died. Whether it was 4 million or 20 million makes no difference. No difference at all.

I'm a born again Christian.I have nothing against Jews.Or Muslims.Or Buddhists.Or Hindus.In fact,I'm not really prejudiced at all.Don't generalise.

Why not? This entire thread is predicated on hateful generalities. Someone says "I don't like Jews", someone else says, "I don't like born-agains". And so it goes, devoid of sense or reason.

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?

Look.This argument is pointless.We are NEVER going to know how many people died in the Holocaust,Jewish or non-Jewish.It's impossible.We will never know and it's sad,but it's the sad truth.Get over it.

Do you have a quote by him from a reputable source?

Which do you want? Adolf Eichmann's quote, or proof of at least six million victims?

The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe... From 1937 to the beginning of 1943 the number of Jews, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories which are here counted as off-going, should have diminished by an estimated 4 million. It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.... On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population.

Also:
Hoefle Telegram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram)

Alright. Thanks for this info. But as far as I know much of the Nazi records were destroyed. So how can they base the death toll numbers off partial or lost records?

Wouldn't that mean that more jews/roma/homosexuals were killed if we were missing significant nazi records?

That would make the real death toll larger, not smaller.

Thats just what I was thinking serously, how does the Nazi's destroying some of the records make the numbers smaller than what the documents we have say they are.

GEEZ? The Nazi's only killed 4 million jews instead of 6 millions? CURSE those wretched Jews for lying to us to curry sympathy.

I.
Am.
OUTRAGED

This is a travesty. How they can expect pity from me when ONLY 4 million of them died when they said it was 6 million!?!?

sometimes, when people adopt a new faith (political belief, cultural viewpoint etc) they may feel the yhave to try harder.
Or maybe trying to make the new faith support their own feelings or ignorance.

I just added in a few things I've seen have similar results.

Generally, (to generalise) the ones who go most hardcore are the ones who eventually go back to their original beliefs. So there is hope.

When you repeatedly use the quotation marks you mark yourself out as a denier rather than a revisionist.Why? The attempted eliminination of Jews has only later been dubbed thus. It is just one use of the word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28disambiguation%29
.

Why not? This entire thread is predicated on hateful generalities. Someone says "I don't like Jews", someone else says, "I don't like born-agains". And so it goes, devoid of sense or reason.

But this entire thread was made by a moron,no?Hateful generalities should not just "go on," they can't just be accepted,and it's sad that they are.I'm not saying they ever will stop,people will always be prejudiced unfortunately.One prejudiced man wrote the book which defined a Nazi party.It led to a Holocaust,eventually.Of course that book was Mein Kampf,and that man was Hitler,but I'm pretty sure you knew that.

GEEZ? The Nazi's only killed 4 million jews instead of 6 millions? CURSE those wretched Jews for lying to us to curry sympathy.

I.
Am.
OUTRAGED

This is a travesty. How they can expect pity from me when ONLY 4 million of them died when they said it was 6 million!?!?

You win the thread:)

GEEZ? The Nazi's only killed 4 million jews instead of 6 millions? CURSE those wretched Jews for lying to us to curry sympathy.

This is a travesty. How they can expect pity from me when ONLY 4 million of them died when they said it was 6 million!?!?

Yeah, that's only 4 million people dying by being starved, shot, overworked, experimented on, gassed, electrocuted, or killed by disease! For God's sake, take that in to account!

Sad, isn't it?

I'm a born again Christian.I have nothing against Jews.Or Muslims.Or Buddhists.Or Hindus.In fact,I'm not really prejudiced at all.Don't generalise.Who bore you again?
.

Which do you want? Adolf Eichmann's quote, or proof of at least six million victims?



Also:
Hoefle Telegram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram)


So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

Wouldn't that mean that more jews/roma/homosexuals were killed if we were missing significant nazi records?

no what I'm saying is that it is possible that those who wanted a jewish state to come into being may have taken what records were available and based off those numbers could have said "see only so many were killed based off what we have here, imagine how many more must have been killed that we dont know about" Thus getting to the 6 million number. We may never know for sure.

Who bore you again?
.

Figure of speech,friend,figure of speech.It just means I was never born Christian,but have only recently taken it on.

Why? The attempted eliminination of Jews has only later been dubbed thus. It is just one use of the word.And? It being named after it happened has what meaning exactly?

Figure of speech,friend,figure of speech.It just means I was never born Christian,but have only recently taken it on.Why do you throw away your life?
.

Oh, and just cause I said that doesnt mean im a supporter of nazism or arabism.

no what I'm saying is that it is possible that those who wanted a jewish state to come into being may have taken what records were available and based off those numbers could have said "see only so many were killed based off what we have here, imagine how many more must have been killed that we dont know about" Thus getting to the 6 million number. We may never know for sure.

Ah, the "Jewish state." By this sleight of hand with the numbers, they managed to rob your co-religionists in Palestine, is that it?

Look, do you think the Nazis, who were organized about this to an incredible degree, lost records? Good grief, they tattooed people in the camps so they could keep track of them.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

agree.

no what I'm saying is that it is possible that those who wanted a jewish state to come into being may have taken what records were available and based off those numbers could have said "see only so many were killed based off what we have here, imagine how many more must have been killed that we dont know about" Thus getting to the 6 million number. We may never know for sure.

...But you said less people had been killed than originally thought.
Get your argument straight,before NSers more experienced than me tear you to pieces.

those who wanted a jewish state to come into being

...did not exclusively come up with the statistics.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

Yeah jumping from 5 to 6 gains them sooooo much more pitty! :rolleyes:

Their hive mind concocted this plan to exaggerate the number by a 5th so that people with a grudge could use it against them later :rolleyes:

no what I'm saying is that it is possible that those who wanted a jewish state to come into being may have taken what records were available and based off those numbers could have said "see only so many were killed based off what we have here, imagine how many more must have been killed that we dont know about" Thus getting to the 6 million number. We may never know for sure.Prove that the founding fathers of the State of Israel were involved in researching the amount of victims.

Yeah, that's only 4 million people dying by being starved, shot, overworked, experimented on, gassed, electrocuted, or killed by disease! For God's sake, take that in to account!

Sad, isn't it?

BUT THEY LIED ABOUT 2 MILLION PEOPLE!!! That's like saying I have $2,000,003.62 in my bank account! Would you want to date me if I ONLY had 3.62 dollars to my name? NO! The Jews lied, I rest my case.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

How convenient that the new anti-Semitic nation of Ikfaldu is born just as an anti-Semitic thread arises....

Or it could be a racist puppet afraid to espouse these disgusting views under his/her main nation.

Coward.

Why do you throw away your life?
.

Thrown it away?You are quite mistaken,I've given new meaning to it.And this thread isn't about my religion,it's about Soviestan's outrageous claims.So lets get back on topic,eh?

Before I begin I just want to say that I'm not saying no one was killed by the Nazis, that would be foolish and I'm no fool. However I do question the number of people killed. I have my doubts that 6 million jews were killed. The numbers of total killed change all the time so where is this "proof" that 6 million were killed?


Now, if I'm wrong show me where and if you have proof of the true death toll, I'd like to see it.

Don't go to Germany.

And I agree with Ardee, why the knee-jerk anti-Jewishness since you converted? I thought Islam was a faith of peace and brotherhood, and respect for the People of the Book?

Islam is of course a faith of peace, brotherhood, and respect. Yet some on here want to paint Islam as some hateful, terrorist faith, which I find quite offensive. And I'm not exactly anti-jew, more of anti-zionist. And there is a difference.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

Erm...what?
That's called anti-semitism,and that gets you banned.The Jews didn't lie to paint themselves out to be victims.Millions of people died because of the Nazis.Millions of Jews,millions of non-Jews.The Jews didn't exploit a single one of them.Stop being racist.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

It varies. Eichmann said around 5 million, but other documents suggest that it was higher and the testimony of his subordinates also suggests a higher number. And that's just Jews, let alone everyone else.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

Yes, only 4 million people had their families rounded up and shot and starved, tortured and gassed, raped and beaten, and who were forced to give up their children so that they could be experimented on by Nazi "doctors", or were forced to do slave labor in inhumane conditions. They deserve no sympathy, no pity, and nothing in return for their suffering. It's all an evil plot by the Jews to get more money.

Maybe you should actually speak to one of the people who had their families rounded up or maybe you should visit the museums and see the items made out of human skin and hair. How about the piles of shoes and confiscated goods stolen by Nazi thugs for their own personal enrichment, or the Maybe you should see the tattoos and branded numbers in the arms that marked them as animals, garbage fit only to be slaughtered...but then again, the Jews are just looking for sympathy. Typical anti-Semitic bullshit that tries to defend Nazi filth instead of realizing them for the monsters they were. I imagine you've never even been to a death camp, have you? You've never seen what those bastards did. The Nazis deserve no sympathy, no praise, and most of all no respect....they are one of the greatest evils to ever menace the world in the entire history of human civilization.

Islam is of course a faith of peace, brotherhood, and respect. Yet some on here want to paint Islam as some hateful, terrorist faith, which I find quite offensive. And I'm not exactly anti-jew, more of anti-zionist. And there is a difference.
I think Islam is a hatefull, terrorist faith.

Go google "nazi concentration camps" in Google Images and look at the pictures, not the thumbnails, the actual pictures, and tell me the actual number matters. It was a hideous episode in human history. Who cares if it was 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 people?

Islam is of course a faith of peace, brotherhood, and respect. Yet some on here want to paint Islam as some hateful, terrorist faith, which I find quite offensive. And I'm not exactly anti-jew, more of anti-zionist. And there is a difference.

Considering you use the word 'jew' instead of the word 'zionist' in your pathetic diatribes, I daresay it's fairly obvious that there is little difference in your mind.

How convenient that the new anti-Semitic nation of Ikfaldu is born just as an anti-Semitic thread arises....

Or it could be a racist puppet afraid to espouse these disgusting views under his/her main nation.

Coward.

I have been a member for a long time idiot, I just never saw a thread that roused my interests, I dont know about you but I dont really give a crap about justin timberlake or the politics in the US. Check out my nation, I'm proud of everything I am. You call me a coward? Wow, real balls you dickhead. If I was a coward I WOULD BE GOING ALONG WITH WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING IN HERE MINDLESSLY!

I think Islam is a hatefull, terrorist faith.

Then you are wrong.
Islam, the word itself, means "peace." I don't see that as a hateful religion.
The Qu'ran itself teaches piece.It's the small minorities,like Al-Qaida,who give it a bloody awful name.
Like I said to someone else,don't generalise,it makes you look idiotic.

Look at the pictures (No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States). It was a hideous episode in human history. Who cares if it was 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 people?

I do

Maybe you dont realise how important a human life is. A MILLION OR TWO MILLION PEOPLE IS ALOT!!!

I have been a member for a long time idiot, I just never saw a thread that roused my interests, I dont know about you but I dont really give a crap about justin timberlake or the politics in the US. Check out my nation, I'm proud of everything I am. You call me a coward? Wow, real balls you dickhead. If I was a coward I WOULD BE GOING ALONG WITH WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING IN HERE MINDLESSLY!

Calm down,or teh moderators will ban you.
And what the hell has Justin Timberlake got anything to do with it?

And? It being named after it happened has what meaning exactly?That the quotes are justified since the word is not unambiguous. And it is rather strange to use the word for what happened to the Jews given that in its original (Greek) sense it refers to a completely-burnt sacrifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28sacrifice%29). I am generally somewhat uncomfortable with the use of words outside their actual meaning.
.

I think Islam is a hatefull, terrorist faith.

Then your dead wrong, and little better than an anti-semite.

I do

Maybe you dont realise how important a human life is. A MILLION OR TWO MILLION PEOPLE IS ALOT!!!

Then why are you claiming the Jews should have no pity?!
It's called being hypocritical.

Then you are wrong.

You fail, it's my opinion and that cannot be wrong.

It varies. Eichmann said around 5 million, but other documents suggest that it was higher and the testimony of his subordinates also suggests a higher number.



Yes, only 4 million people had their families rounded up and shot and starved, tortured and gassed, raped and beaten, and who were forced to give up their children so that they could be experimented on by Nazi "doctors", or were forced to do slave labor in inhumane conditions. They deserve no sympathy, no pity, and nothing in return for their suffering. It's all an evil plot by the Jews to get more money.

Maybe you should actually speak to one of the people who had their families rounded up or maybe you should visit the museums and see the items made out of human skin and hair. How about the piles of shoes and confiscated goods stolen by Nazi thugs for their own personal enrichment, or the Maybe you should see the tattoos and branded numbers in the arms that marked them as animals, garbage fit only to be slaughtered...but then again, the Jews are just looking for sympathy. Typical anti-Semitic bullshit that tries to defend Nazi filth instead of realizing them for the monsters they were. I imagine you've never even been to a death camp, have you? You've never seen what those bastards did. The Nazis deserve no sympathy, no praise, and most of all no respect....they are one of the greatest evils to ever menace the world in the entire history of human civilization.

Cry me a river.

Anyway, this is happening right now all over the world, I dont see you jumping on some aid agency bandwagon to help the plight of the africans, chinese, south americans etc

If I was a coward I WOULD BE GOING ALONG WITH WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING IN HERE MINDLESSLY!

Yeah, your courage is impressive - standing up for your opinions on an anonymous political forum.

Then your dead wrong, and little better than an anti-semite.Better in what way?
.

I do

Maybe you dont realise how important a human life is. A MILLION OR TWO MILLION PEOPLE IS ALOT!!!

Why are you yelling at me? I'm on your side, silly.

Edited: Wait ... maybe I'm not. You're saying the Jews inflated the numbers so they would look even more pitiful and could get a homeland at someone else's expense? If so, I'm not on your side. What I meant was, it was a huge number of people, the exact number shouldn't be that important.

Prove that the founding fathers of the State of Israel were involved in researching the amount of victims.

do you have proof they didnt? I didn't say the founding fathers of Israel, I said those who are sympathetic to the zionist goals.

Then why are you claiming the Jews should have no pity?!
It's called being hypocritical.


I feel pity for the ones who died and the ones who didnt use the others death for personal exploitation. Fuck the rest of them. That includes roma and serbs who bullshitted numbers too.

Maybe you dont realise how important a human life is. A MILLION OR TWO MILLION PEOPLE IS ALOT!!!

Yes, it is. That's why it makes it no worse if only 4 million were killed instead of five million. That's 4 million lives, half the population of New York City, being rounded up and destroyed. That's entire families ruined, entire villages ruined and entire cultures destroyed.

Even 10,000, even 1,000, even 1 would be an atrocity...there is no sliding scale of atrocity here.

It was proven in our school. These revisionist historians who accepted the 6 million figure came to our school to do a lecture on it, they had tonnes of documents. These included Nazi documents which were not avaliable to the public at the time (meaning it was not propagander) counting the number of Jews "exterminated" from each country. The figure reached when added up made 6 million.

Why are you yelling at me? I'm on your side, silly.


I am NOT on your side, I am NOT on the 'other' peoples side, I am on RATIONALITIES SIDE! Look for allies somewhere else dickhead

That the quotes are justified since the word is not unambiguous. And it is rather strange to use the word for what happened to the Jews given that in its original (Greek) sense it refers to a completely-burnt sacrifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28sacrifice%29). I am generally somewhat uncomfortable with the use of words outside their actual meaning.
.Then refer to it as the Shoa.

Thrown it away?You are quite mistaken,I've given new meaning to it.And this thread isn't about my religion,it's about Soviestan's outrageous claims.So lets get back on topic,eh?I am not mistaken. Your life is now officially meaningless.
What claims? He just asked something.
.

Then why are you claiming the Jews should have no pity?!
It's called being hypocritical.

I don't think they should have pity. People should get what they get on their own merits, not how well of a victim they are. Its the worse form of affirmative action.

Better in what way?
.

I hold people who are prejudice of a faith in a little better esteem than people who are prejudice of a race.

Although its a bit of a gray area when you talking about anti-semitism being anti-Judaism or anti-jewish people....

Both are horrible in my eyes

do you have proof they didnt?

Absurd conspiracy theories are notoriously difficult to disprove.

Do you have proof that reptillian creatures from another dimension are not inserting Holocaust skepticism into your mind as part of their secret plot to take over the world?

You fail, it's my opinion and that cannot be wrong.

Hell,I'm not even sure if your joking or not.Tell me your joking.Before I start laughing even harder.

I feel pity for the ones who died and the ones who didnt use the others death for personal exploitation. Fuck the rest of them. That includes roma and serbs who bullshitted numbers too.

Yes, because having your communities destroyed, almost your entire population murdered and your culture nearly eradicated doesn't entitle you to some kind of compensation for your losses. :rolleyes:

Also, let's see some proof that these numbers were made up. You like calling our data in to question, let's see you provide some.

Oh wait, you can't because every Holocaust denier has been ridiculed and scorned for their blatant disrespect of historical data and willingness to lie to advance their propaganda! Maybe they can make up some more fake testimony in order to try and argue their case.

I don't think they should have pity. People should get what they get on their own merits, not how well of a victim they are. Its the worse form of affirmative action.



So little babies shouldnt get pity and help if they are injured? They should get what they want on their own merits? Well f**k, wouldnt you be an awesome daddy

do you have proof they didnt? Can you prove to me that you're not black? If not, you must be black.
I didn't say the founding fathers of Israel, I said those who are sympathetic to the zionist goals.Still need to prove that.

Hell,I'm not even sure if your joking or not.Tell me your joking.Before I start laughing even harder.
This is NSG, don't forget that;)

I think Islam is a hatefull, terrorist faith.

I think you havent a clue of what you speak.

I am NOT on your side, I am NOT on the 'other' peoples side, I am on RATIONALITIES SIDE! Look for allies somewhere else dickhead

I really hope you get banned.Or at least grow up.

This is NSG, don't forget that;)

Good point....forgiveness for you :)

I think you havent a clue of what you speak.

I think you should look in a mirror.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them
I do

Maybe you dont realise how important a human life is. A MILLION OR TWO MILLION PEOPLE IS ALOT!!!

Why place so much overwhelming importance on the supposed and unproven one- or two-million death discrepancy, but give almost no consideration to the millions more who actually died? Hello, moral callousness...

Anyway, this is happening right now all over the world, I dont see you jumping on some aid agency bandwagon to help the plight of the africans, chinese, south americans etc
I also don't see you hounding these ethnic groups, claiming that they're exaggerating genocide to gain world sympathy.

I think you should look in a mirror.

Agreed. This matter was actually settled in court, in favor of the holocaust. Yet people are still at it!

Yes, because having your communities destroyed, almost your entire population murdered and your culture nearly eradicated doesn't entitle you to some kind of compensation for your losses. :rolleyes:

Also, let's see some proof that these numbers were made up. You like calling our data in to question, let's see you provide some.

Oh wait, you can't because every Holocaust denier has been ridiculed and scorned for their blatant disrespect of historical data and willingness to lie to advance their propaganda!

I'm not a denier i think it happened its people like YOU who have called it into question in my mind, people who accuse anyone who says less than 11 million people died a denier/racist/nazi/satan. I know shit all about the holocaust to tell you the truth, this is like the first time ive visited these forums. Lots of people die all the time, so whos gonna pay their compensation? If they did lie about their numbers then yes ill be pissed off, I shouldnt have to explain why.

Then you are wrong.
Islam, the word itself, means "peace." I don't see that as a hateful religion.
The Qu'ran itself teaches piece.It's the small minorities,like Al-Qaida,who give it a bloody awful name.
Like I said to someone else,don't generalise,it makes you look idiotic.

Thats a common error. Islam does not mean peace. It means submission.

Why place so much overwhelming importance on the supposed and unproven one- or two-million death discrepancy, but give almost no consideration to the millions more who actually died? Hello, moral callousness...


I also don't see you hounding these ethnic groups, claiming that they're exaggerating genocide to gain world sympathy.


Thats because its not a topic in these forums, plus I havent been exposed to all of their propaganda/pity seeking throughout my life. I never asked for fucking lame useless pity, why should they, and worst of all why should people LIE about it?

I am not mistaken. Your life is now officially meaningless.
What claims? He just asked something.
.

No,my life is not meaningless.My opinion's different to yours,but that's also irrelevant.Your an atheist,I'm not.Live with it.
It started off as a question,now Jews are painting themselves as victims.

Because I don't mind feeding the trolls because I am a sadomasochist, I will produce a link with the numbers, as well as the history, and add in this:

Sure, 6 million Jews sounds like a lot, but, this is the general number of them killed from 1938-1945. That's less than a million a year. It's still a fucking lot of people to kill, but, seriously? That trump card is so overplayed that even a liberal minded person like me who has a Jewish boyfriend is starting to call "bullshit" on it. (Don't even try and label me as anti-semetic...)

I don't deny it. I know it was tragic, but, there are far worse genocides in history than the Jewish one.

1932-1933, in the Ukraine, 7 million people were starved to death because they didn't want to be part of Soviet Russia. These people were the victims of Stalin's Forced Famine.

Or what about the 800,000 Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda who were killed in the Rwandan genocide that took place in 1994? Is that not equally as bad as the Jewish Holocaust?

Genocide in the 20th Century (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/)

There, I provided a source, now I can blow out my ass and say that I don't believe that the Jewish Holocaust was the worst one. Yes, it was bad, but, I believe that the Ukrainians got a fucking raw deal and why is no one showing them the same compassion as Jews, who are not of a single ethnicity and the Ukrainians are?

Go on, call me a troll, a flamebaiter, but as it's been shown, you can't dispute facts and you can't call someone out for expressing an opinion that says based on facts one instance of genocide was more tragic than the world's favourite.

I think you havent a clue of what you speak.
We're on the same level then;)

I think you should look in a mirror.

Are you saying I'm a terrorist simply because I'm Muslim?

That the quotes are justified since the word is not unambiguous. And it is rather strange to use the word for what happened to the Jews given that in its original (Greek) sense it refers to a completely-burnt sacrifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28sacrifice%29). I am generally somewhat uncomfortable with the use of words outside their actual meaning.
.

Honestly, I don't know why it gets that name. I think it refers to the attempt to destroy the Jews completely. It also refers to a lot of burnings (albeit of corpses) that took place during what we know as the Holocaust. Just some guesses...and it would make sense why we don't know, say, the Armenian massacre by the Ottomans as a "holocaust" or the Rwandan massacre as a "holocaust." The methods of killing and disposing of the bodies were different.

Frankly, if people had bone-chilling, succinct names for other genocides, and if they could associate them with great victories such as the destruction of fascism in World War II, then they might be a bit better remembered. Sadly, a lot of the genocides we see now are merely sad reminders that a good number of people didn't learn a damn thing from the Holocaust. And that's the saddest thing of all.

People would rather sit around and claim that the Jews made this stuff up or that they exploited it to create Israel or that the numbers are exaggerated or whatever...rather than take away the biggest lesson of the Holocaust, which is this: Human beings are capable of great evil when they give up rational though processes and give in to extremism. And whose who don't study or don't regard history are the ones inevitably doomed to repeat it. And sadly, many people do.

Are you saying I'm a terrorist simply because I'm Muslim?

No. I think you haven't a clue of what you speak.

Because I don't mind feeding the trolls because I am a sadomasochist, I will produce a link with the numbers, as well as the history, and add in this:

Sure, 6 million Jews sounds like a lot, but, this is the general number of them killed from 1938-1945. That's less than a million a year. It's still a fucking lot of people to kill, but, seriously? That trump card is so overplayed that even a liberal minded person like me who has a Jewish boyfriend is starting to call "bullshit" on it. (Don't even try and label me as anti-semetic...)

I don't deny it. I know it was tragic, but, there are far worse genocides in history than the Jewish one.

1932-1933, in the Ukraine, 7 million people were starved to death because they didn't want to be part of Soviet Russia. These people were the victims of Stalin's Forced Famine.

Or what about the 800,000 Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda who were killed in the Rwandan genocide that took place in 1994? Is that not equally as bad as the Jewish Holocaust?

Genocide in the 20th Century (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/)

There, I provided a source, now I can blow out my ass and say that I don't believe that the Jewish Holocaust was the worst one. Yes, it was bad, but, I believe that the Ukrainians got a fucking raw deal and why is no one showing them the same compassion as Jews, who are not of a single ethnicity and the Ukrainians are?

Go on, call me a troll, a flamebaiter, but as it's been shown, you can't dispute facts and you can't call someone out for expressing an opinion that says based on facts one instance of genocide was more tragic than the world's favourite.

Actually 11 million people died in the holocaust, so thats like 2 million per year

Also, its generalisation to say that stalin had all of those ukrainians killed cause they didnt wanna be a part of his empire; i think he killed many of them cause he just didnt like ukranians

Locked for review.

NationStates Forum Moderator
HotRodia

ok honestly you type of people are jsut sick, and your not worth even arguing agaisnt.


Don't feed the trolls people.

Take your own advice. If you think someone is trolling, do not respond to their posts. And quit flamebaiting while you're at it.

What happened to you? You've become so... so... disappointing.

I'll be upfront about it: you've become this anti-Semitic little twit. It's a shame. Please, improve - do not slide further.

Speaking of disappointing...if you feel the need to call another person names and attack that person's character, do it elsewhere. You know better than that.

So less than 5 million died according to Eichmann.

A million is alot of people, it also paints the jews out to be liars who exploited the deaths of millions for personal gain and pity. Fuck them

Trolling.

How convenient that the new anti-Semitic nation of Ikfaldu is born just as an anti-Semitic thread arises....

Or it could be a racist puppet afraid to espouse these disgusting views under his/her main nation.

Coward.

Flaming and flamebait in response to the trolling. You now have an Official Warning for it. And given your history, expect harsher measures to follow very quickly if you keep it up.

Erm...what?
That's called anti-semitism,and that gets you banned.The Jews didn't lie to paint themselves out to be victims.Millions of people died because of the Nazis.Millions of Jews,millions of non-Jews.The Jews didn't exploit a single one of them.Stop being racist.

Contrary to you opinion, anti-semitism by itself is not against the rules here. Expressing it in a trolling, baiting, or flaming manner is.

I have been a member for a long time idiot, I just never saw a thread that roused my interests, I dont know about you but I dont really give a crap about justin timberlake or the politics in the US. Check out my nation, I'm proud of everything I am. You call me a coward? Wow, real balls you dickhead. If I was a coward I WOULD BE GOING ALONG WITH WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING IN HERE MINDLESSLY!

Flaming.

Calm down,or teh moderators will ban you.

Let the Mods decide what punishments will be handed out.

I feel pity for the ones who died and the ones who didnt use the others death for personal exploitation. Fuck the rest of them. That includes roma and serbs who bullshitted numbers too.

Trolling.

I am NOT on your side, I am NOT on the 'other' peoples side, I am on RATIONALITIES SIDE! Look for allies somewhere else dickhead

Flaming.

You now have an Official Warning for trolling and flaming.

I am not mistaken. Your life is now officially meaningless.

Thread hijacking, flamebaiting, and borderline trolling. A three-for-one deal. You've trolled and baited here enough.

Your account is now officially deleted.

NationStates Forum Moderator
HotRodia