NationStates Jolt Archive

Going back to the creation theory. God created the heavens and the earth, and then He created humans in His own image. He gave us free will, and told us that there was only one thing we couldn't do. So the real question I have been pondering for quite a while is this: Did God create humans so that He could see what He would do if He were given the option to do wrong?

This is going on the base assumption that there is a God, which cannot be proved or disproved so please don't waste time trying to convince everyone that you have found the answer everything.

Going back to the creation theory. God created the heavens and the earth, and then He created humans in His own image. He gave us free will, and told us that there was only one thing we couldn't do. So the real question I have been pondering for quite a while is this: Did God create humans so that He could see what He would do if He were given the option to do wrong?

G-d created man in his own image, that doesn't mean their equal per se, who is to say G-d even thinks on the same plane that humans do?

Also, didn't he first create us in a sin free state in the garden of Eden? Where we could not sin and seemingly had no free will?

Interesting, but violates the concept of God as all-knowing. Essentially the hot-burrito question.

I think initially it would hinge on whether or not God is capable of doing evil, and also if the conditions of perfection and omnibenevolence are necessarily the most correct interpretation of his nature.

We would have to determine whether God is perfect in the sense of "flawless" or good in the sense of "do no evil" as opposed to the concept that he might be "perfect" more in the sense of complete, with good and evil aspects, and also his omnibenevolence might require him to do a temporal evil to achieve an eternal good.

It's also plausible that God has free will, but decides not to do evil out of his perfectly good nature.

Interesting, but violates the concept of God as all-knowing. Essentially the hot-burrito question.

Well, the only problem with that question is that it tries to limit the infinite; if God were infinite, an attempt to create something greater than the infinite is inherently contradictory. If you're all that is, you can't create something more than that.

Its also possible God does great evil and is essential omnimalevolent.

If God is everything, is he also then, the Devil?:eek:


Thats right boy,

We would have to determine whether God is perfect in the sense of "flawless" or good in the sense of "do no evil" as opposed to the concept that he might be "perfect" more in the sense of complete, with good and evil aspects, and also his omnibenevolence might require him to do a temporal evil to achieve an eternal good.
Sodom and Gomorrah. Jonah. God must be flawless, cause God sure doesn't follow the do no evil bit.

Why should God be infinite? It doesn't follow from having created infinity that God should also be infinity. But that is the paradox of the hot burrito: you have just put a limit on God, suggesting that God is not greater than infinity.

Its also possible God does great evil and is essential omnimalevolent.

That's true. One of the fundamental flaws in the debate about God, particularly his existence, is that we automatically assume God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent and argue from there, effectively creating a false dichotomy between the Abrahamic God and nonexistence when in reality that is a totally inadequate basis to argue from.

I mean, the option of a malevolent God totally solves the theodicy question, and if you add in the concept of dualism you've taken care of both good and evil. It's rather neatly summed up, actually.

Sodom and Gomorrah. Jonah. God must be flawless, cause God sure doesn't follow the do no evil bit.

Unless we were to assume that a significantly greater good were to come from those evil actions. It ties in to an earlier debate about whether the ends justify the means; in this case, we don't know exactly what the ends are although we know the means...and the question becomes, are those means justified?

Why should God be infinite? It doesn't follow from having created infinity that God should also be infinity. But that is the paradox of the hot burrito: you have just put a limit on God, suggesting that God is not greater than infinity.

However, God does have limits. He can't go against his nature, he can't lie, and he can't sin.

God would have to be infinite because it would be fundamentally impossible for him to create something greater than himself (that's assuming existence is infinite; if God ruled only this universe, it would be significantly different since this universe is finite), and

G-d created man in his own image, that doesn't mean their equal per se, who is to say G-d even thinks on the same plane that humans do?

Also, didn't he first create us in a sin free state in the garden of Eden? Where we could not sin and seemingly had no free will?

are you jewish?

God created man for man to worship God.

are you jewish?

Nope, just absurdly politically correct.

<Insert obligatory nazi comment here.>

God created man for man to worship God.

Which raises an interesting question: why does God need worship?

Which raises an interesting question: why does God need worship?

who knows. Why did he needto create man?

and he can't sin.

There is a question on whether he can't sin because his nature perfectly lines up with what is good or whether all his action are good even if he ordered rapes, murders, ect for no other reason for his enjoyment.

who knows. Why did he needto create man?

And that reduces to the most fundamental question of all: Why did he create a universe at all?

And that's where the whole thing breaks down, I'm afraid.

Interesting, but violates the concept of God as all-knowing.

though all-knowing might merely mean that god knows everything that is true. and it might also be that the future is unwritten and propositions about the future have no truth values. therefore he would be unable to know things that are not yet the case.

There is a question on whether he can't sin because his nature perfectly lines up with what is good or whether all his action are good even if he ordered rapes, murders, ect for no other reason for his enjoyment.

I would say God is above the human terms of good and evil, yet because his nature is objectively good he can't go against it. Our conceptions of good and evil are greatly limited compared to God's in this case, so what we might see as evil may ultimately be a good action done out of necessity.

Looking at Christianity, for example, God creating his Son with the purpose and knowledge from birth that he would be ultimately tortured, crucified, and killed seems like a pretty evil act. However, according to Christianity this sacrifice ultimately enabled mankind to be redeemed and to achieve salvation.

I would say God is above the human terms of good and evil, yet because his nature is objectively good he can't go against it. Our conceptions of good and evil are greatly limited compared to God's in this case, so what we might see as evil may ultimately be a good action done out of necessity.

Looking at Christianity, for example, God creating his Son with the purpose and knowledge from birth that he would be ultimately tortured, crucified, and killed seems like a pretty evil act. However, according to Christianity this sacrifice ultimately enabled mankind to be redeemed and to achieve salvation.
Even in Christ's case, the situation is clearly defined: Christ can have only redeemed humans by making the decision to martyr himself. If God created his Son for the purpose of dying, then God is making a scapegoat for all humans' sins, which is essentially bearing false witness. So God seemingly took a bit of a gamble with Christ, knowing that he would be persecuted, but not knowing if Christ would accept this as his fate or not.

Clearly, our view of Good and Evil has more grey area than God's, or we would not have the Commandments. But the Commandments are the words of God, and are God's most basic tenets. Thus any violation, even by God, has no grey area. God has committed evil acts, but for a greater good.

This doesn't resolve whether God is all-future-knowing or not, as per Free Soviets. I'll have to think of some answers to that. My feeling is that the consensus is God is all-knowing in all verb tenses.

And that reduces to the most fundamental question of all: Why did he create a universe at all?

Perhaps an eternity of existence with omnipotence and omniscience didn't appeal to Him without having something to use all that power on.

God created our world as well as man to have preeminence over it. He began the project of our existence with the intention that it would be a work in progress. He made man in His image and loves Him. God knows that man must make the most out of the limited resources and transcend the adversities with which he is presented. He designed man with the capacity to learn and to make progress and to worship Him. But He also deemed it necessary that man should not be able to fully understand His intentions and His nature, but must arrive at these insights through revelation. Even after, generations of pious men and women have contributed to this divine relationship, mankind often neglects even asking the proper question let alone coming up with an answer to any inquiries. The question is thus, "What does God want from me?" Because He gave us a purpose to fulfill some unknown goal. We may someday complete His divine project.
The dilemma we face is the destruction by our own creations. Technology has developed exponentially and is hardly in our control anymore. Of course, it can still be harnessed to meet God's divine goal, but it must be subordinate to our love and cooperation amongst ourselves.. as well as our love and cooperation with Him and His project.