NationStates Jolt Archive

I saw a thread on the Tragedy of Waco. It is a tragedy because rights were given to these people which allowed them to commit these atrocites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LUIaRvFAi4 This site suggests that the FBI were wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iToq9CpkQc&NR This however suggests the cultists struck first. The FBI were merely doing their job to protect the people. The Davidians claimed land and raided what they saw as the "outside". When a militant group takes land and raids your land this is a declaration of war. So who was even more in the wrong?

"Waco, The American Iraq," versus, "Iraq, the Iraq that Americans had nothing to do with"?

Statists or religious fanatics... hard choice.

Can I go with "a pox on both their houses"?

Statists or religious fanatics... hard choice.

Can I go with "a pox on both their houses"?

Thats what the third option is for ;)

Statists or religious fanatics... hard choice.

Can I go with "a pox on both their houses"?
there is a choice saying both were wrong.

Thats what the third option is for ;)

Yes, I realized that... after voting for the second option.

Sorry. I guess there have been too many "Myrth" and "Pancakes" options for me to read polls carefully enough.

The Branch Davidians were guilty of several crimes, inlcuding possession of illegal firearms, as well as the sexual molestation sexual abuse of children.

When the ATF and FBI tried several times to serve warrants for Davidian leader David Koresh, but were unable to do so. When the warrants were served at the davidians ranch/compound by the various agents, the agents were fired upon with illegal automatic weapons, and at least 2 of them were killed.

The government showed an outrageous amount of patience in dealing with Koresh, letting him bullshit and lie to government officials for nearly two months. Koresh made numerous promises that he would exit the compound and turn himself in, but he broke every single one of them, and there was never any indication that he would willingly give himself up. It was this unwillingness to give himself up to the legal authorities in a timely manner, plus the increasingly scary allegations of sexual and physical abuse of the children at the compound which led the government to eventually try to force the Davidians to leave their fortress of buildings by inserting tear gas into said buildings. In response the Davidians lit a fire, which quickly spread throughout the entire compound, eventually engulfing the entire compound.

As far as ultimate blame and fault goes, the only fault of the government is that they waited so long to act.

The Branch Davidians were guilty of several crimes, inlcuding possession of illegal firearms, as well as the sexual molestation sexual abuse of children.

When the ATF and FBI tried several times to serve warrants for Davidian leader David Koresh, but were unable to do so. When the warrants were served at the davidians ranch/compound by the various agents, the agents were fired upon with illegal automatic weapons, and at least 2 of them were killed.

The government showed an outrageous amount of patience in dealing with Koresh, letting him bullshit and lie to government officials for nearly two months. Koresh made numerous promises that he would exit the compound and turn himself in, but he broke every single one of them, and there was never any indication that he would willingly give himself up. It was this unwillingness to give himself up to the legal authorities in a timely manner, plus the increasingly scary allegations of sexual and physical abuse of the children at the compound which led the government to eventually try to force the Davidians to leave their fortress of buildings by inserting tear gas into said buildings. In response the Davidians lit a fire, which quickly spread throughout the entire compound, eventually engulfing the entire compound.

As far as ultimate blame and fault goes, the only fault of the government is that they waited so long to act.

ditto. When the entire facts of the circumstances are looked at, the fault of the action lies fully, and soley on the Branch Davidian leadership. What happened was tragic, but the government acted appropriatly in the circumstances.

Yup these cultists are the kind of scourge the OACF has sworn to resist, only in more militant form! http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=506020&page=6

And one thing about the discussion they had on whether or not the FBI were right...I kind of think that if they are like their own army then how do you arrest them without getting killed, they're just like the war criminals in Iraq! Brute force was the only way, any alternative would have prolonged the death and suffering.

Why are there two threads on Waco? Did someone throw us through a Wayback Machine again?

ditto. When the entire facts of the circumstances are looked at, the fault of the action lies fully, and soley on the Branch Davidian leadership. What happened was tragic, but the government acted appropriatly in the circumstances.

I agree.

Why are there two threads on Waco? Did someone throw us through a Wayback Machine again?

The other one I saw was just news, this one is a discussion.

The fact is, if events turned out slightly differently, if the tear gas did not set fire, and they were forced out of the compound where they were arrested without harm, would anyone call it an over reaction? Would anyone put fault in the government?

No, they would have said good on the government for ending the situation without making it worse.

Unfortunatly, the tear gas, through no fault of the government, ignited. It couldn't have been predicted or considered really. So if the government's actions up to using tear gas (a perfectly legally sanctioned action) was reasonable, and the fire was not their fault, and was not predictable, then their actions were not wrong.

The other one I saw was just news, this one is a discussion.

Looks like pretty much the same discussion. It's hard to regard a thread on something that happened that long ago as 'news.' Even a 'news' thread here is just a lead in to discussion.

Looks like pretty much the same discussion. It's hard to regard a thread on something that happened that long ago as 'news.' Even a 'news' thread here is just a lead in to discussion.

I heard in the news just last year that some other armed group was at it again, thus deriving the name "Waco, the American Iraq"

"Waco, The American Iraq," versus, "Iraq, the Iraq that Americans had nothing to do with"?

I'm somewhat puzzled by this myself. What can it mean?

Unfortunatly, the tear gas, through no fault of the government, ignited.

What The Fuck??!!!

Look genius, the tear gas did not ignite, nor did the tear gas cause the fire. Actually, I suppose that one could argue that the introduction of the tear gas into the buildings was the impetus for the Davidians starting a fire in the buildings, but the fire started in an area quite remote from where the tear gas was inserted, as even a semi-close watching of the myriad vids of the event will show.

No, it was the flamethrower on the front of the tank that they crashed into the building that "ignited". I saw a video back shortly after the event which I haven't seen again, not even in the myriad of videos on the internet... which showed a tank with a flamethrower - a guy shooting blindly into a room with a machine gun into which he had just seen women and children run - after throwing a tear gas bomb in. Among other things. Yeah, the cult was a cult, and I'm not exactly big into cults, but there is far less excuse for the FDA's behavior than the cultists. The FDA is in charge, and equal behavior is far mor abborent when performed by those who are supposed to be good examples.