NationStates Jolt Archive

[edited out]

here the two minutes of silence been an gone
but i stopped and think of the one we lost

I think it is a time for everybody to remeber, regardless of their nationality, the soliders who lost their lives defending their countries.

You never knew me
as you grew up on that farm
watched the clouds roll by
dreamed of life and love.

You never knew me
when you swore to fight
and kissed your last goodbye
to those who waved and cried.

You never knew me
when they stormed in,
shards of dark metal
quivering as they cut.

You never knew me
as you huddled in the grime
cold and so alone
wishing for the sun.

You never knew me
baker that you were
carpenter or farmer
not a soldier born.

You never knew me
but you cried out for freedom
and defied the coming dark
even as you fell.

And as I kneel by your cross
I realize that I never knew you
but I know you did this for me
even though you never knew me.

Copyright © 2000 J.D. Frazer

Sorry, no time, it's Carnival today.

To me, Remembrance Day is "In Your Face, Losers" day, so... no dice.

I think it is a time for everybody to remeber, regardless of their nationality, the soliders who lost their lives defending their countries.

That's the part I agree with. The last few years 11/11 has been a bit odd for me, since I was in Iraq from Apr 2003 until Apr 2004. Every 11/11 people make a big fuss over me, and I'm extremely uncomfortable with it. I think that this day should be for those who didn't make it home, not those of us who did.

Although I don't normally like sappy shit like this, when I was in the US Cavalry (3rd ACR) we used this poem to remember our buddies who didn't come home. If a friend of yours was leaving the unit or leaving the Army a customary farewell was to say that you'd see them at Fiddler's Green.


Halfway down the trail to hell
In a shady meadow green,
Are the souls of all dead troopers camped
Near a good old-time canteen
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddler's Green.

Marching past, straight through to hell,
The infantry are seen,
Accompanied by the Engineers,
Artillery and Marine,
For none but the shades of Cavalrymen
Dismount at Fiddlers' Green.

Though some go curving down the trail
To seek a warmer scene,
No trooper ever gets to Hell
Ere he's emptied his canteen,
And so rides back to drink again
With friends at Fiddlers' Green.

And so when man and horse go down
Beneath a saber keen,
Or in a roaring charge or fierce melee
You stop a bullet clean,
And the hostiles come to get your scalp,
Just empty your canteen,
And put your pistol to your head
And go to Fiddlers' Green.

Remembrance day shouldn't be celebrated with a moment of silence, it should be celebrated by expressing our love for the freedom that we have. That way we show we truly value what the veterans fought for in the wars. They fought for freedom, and by showing we appreciate it through actions and not silence we can do it everyday.

To me, Remembrance Day is "In Your Face, Losers" day, so... no dice.

How could you possibly think that? We won both times.

Remembrance day shouldn't be celebrated with a moment of silence, it should be celebrated by expressing our love for the freedom that we have. That way we show we truly value what the veterans fought for in the wars. They fought for freedom, and by showing we appreciate it through actions and not silence we can do it everyday.

its to do with that the guns stop firing on the 11st hour on the 11st day in WW1
so thats way celebrated with two mins of silence

Remembrance day shouldn't be celebrated with a moment of silence, it should be celebrated by expressing our love for the freedom that we have. That way we show we truly value what the veterans fought for in the wars. They fought for freedom, and by showing we appreciate it through actions and not silence we can do it everyday.

Agreed, for the millions who lost their lives for the preservation of freedom in our countries we should take time to feel thankful for their sacrifice of their lives so that future generations could live lives free from oppression. However, we should show our thanks every day of the year, not just today.

How could you possibly think that? We won both times.

I would suggest not starting on him. He's under the strange delusion that he's German even though he's from Australia. I'd just ignore him if I were you because it'll turn into a 20 page flamefest otherwise.

I would suggest not starting on him. He's under the strange delusion that he's German even though he's from Australia. I'd just ignore him if I were you because it'll turn into a 20 page flamefest otherwise.

is he
so he :confused:

I would suggest not starting on him. He's under the strange delusion that he's German even though he's from Australia. I'd just ignore him if I were you because it'll turn into a 20 page flamefest otherwise.

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to point out the absurdity of his post.

I would suggest not starting on him. He's under the strange delusion that he's German even though he's from Australia. I'd just ignore him if I were you because it'll turn into a 20 page flamefest otherwise.

My ancestors gained nothing from your victories, and lost much. I do not respect your troops.

In the UK we do this tomorrow....its always the 2nd Sunday in Nov closest to Nov 11...

I will be giving my thanks and remembering family who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Afterwards I will find a picture of the Rev Smiler and then spit on it and then burn it.

My ancestors gained nothing from your victories, and lost much. I do not respect your troops.

Most people would respect how soliders lost their lives for their country regardless of their nationality. I have just as much sympathy for the dead German soliders as I do for the dead British ones. To give your life for your country should gain you respect regardless of your nationality.

i have to stop and think of them i had a family member in the light horse in WW1

Who (or what, just in case I'm getting the wrong impression) is Rev Smiler?

yes please tell

Who (or what, just in case I'm getting the wrong impression) is Rev Smiler?

The Reverend Smiler....Tony 'Smarmy Git' Blair.

The Reverend Smiler....Tony 'Smarmy Git' Blair.

is he the one in WW2 who like the germans ;)
so you call blair that

is he the one in WW2 who like the germans


Errr...Tony Blair is the present Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.....

You could well be thinking of Lord Haw Haw

The mere "dying for a cause" isn't enough to be a hero, or worthy of respect. The people you're showing your respect towards killed other people. It's not okay, and the fact that they and their families suffered does not make it okay. It's quite simple. War bad.

Errr...Tony Blair is the present Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.....

You could well be thinking of Lord Haw Haw

thats the one
i had a dam mind block

My ancestors gained nothing from your victories, and lost much. I do not respect your troops.

Unless you guys want 20 pages of posts along these lines, I'd suggest just letting him be. And if you somehow imagine you'll change his mind, I'll quote him in a thread he made some time ago.

I do not question my will. You know what? Don't bother debating with me. 'Cause you know what? I don't care. Even if your argument is so good that it shatters worlds, I don't care, because my will will not waiver. Capeesh?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=499794

o.o This is the first time I've ever heard Tony Blair be called "Reverend Smiler" or "Smarmy Git" albeit the latter sounds familiar.

I don't know much about Tony Blair, but I'm assuming you're referring to him being with the United States when it comes to the Iraq War... indeed, sometimes the genuinety in the government's respect for soldiers does seem somewhat questionable, but we can't know their motives for war for sure...

Well I've always called him Smiler....but Private Eye (http://www.private-eye.co.uk/) run a page with Blair as a local Anglican vicar...

So I call him the Rev Smiler...

I am against Smiler for many reasons but one of the main ones is the Iraq situation. As for motivations...well insofar as the UK and the Rev are concerned it was all to do with getting as much Bush arse to kiss as possible.

To be fair, the silence is more so symbolic of appreciation than anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't still important. Yes we should honour what they fought for as well, but that's more of an everyday thing. Our school's Remembrance day assembly this year emphasized the message that "Freedom isn't free" and I think that's the message of Rembrance Day itself.
I know; I agree, I only say what I said because that whole 'moment of silence' as lost its meaning. It's being used too often. Why do we need it for 9/11 or anything else beyond 11/11? By moving it around you take away the original purpose, which is why I've come to believe that we can show our appreciation by expressing it in a new way.

The mere "dying for a cause" isn't enough to be a hero, or worthy of respect. The people you're showing your respect towards killed other people. It's not okay, and the fact that they and their families suffered does not make it okay. It's quite simple. War bad.

That is naive. :rolleyes:

Yes war is bad...only the insane would argue otherwise...but the fact is that war is with us and always has been.

Let me ask you....would you have fought against the Nazi's?

Rememberance Day is always a touchy day for me. I have a grandfather who, 85 and crippled, fought for Canada on a motor torpedo boat in the Second World War, and I have a great uncle who passed away just a few months ago who fought for, ironically, Germany in the Second World War.
I am so very proud of my grandfather, who stood up to tyranny in Europe so that not only Canada could be safeguarded from Nazi agression, but so that the continent could be free of it. Of course, the Red Tide didn't overly help with the liberty campaign, but it's because of the sacrifices of people like my grandfather and all of those who fought alongside him, be they American, Canadian, British, Australian, French, Polish, South African, Indian, or anybody else, that the Iron Curtain was not an Orwellian nightmare, with all of Europe but Britain under Russian control. After he returned from Europe, he actually signed up to go on a PT boat with the Americans in the Pacific to fight the Japanese, but the war ended before they could find a place for him. Furthermore, my grandfather was willing to fight, after coming back from what many viewed as a suicide mission, for the freedom of all people in the Pacific and East Asia.
Of course, like I mentioned, I had a great-uncle who fought for the Germans in the Second World War. While I don't in any way agree with the cause he fought for (although every time I visited him in Germany he tried to make me agree with it), I am proud of him for his sacrifice. He was shot by a Brit in the hip while he was at Sword Beach, and had to serve out the rest of the war in a German hospital, even when it got overrun by the French. I am proud of his sacrifice, but not his cause.
Rememberence Day hits me hard when I don't see people wearing the symbolic poppies, if only out of respect. I hate it when people giggle, whisper, slouch or laze about during the two minutes of silence instead of reflecting upon why they're able to do that instead of saluting the flag of a foreign empire. I hate it more than anything, though, when people just generally have no respect for the country and our soldiers, not only on this day but on all days. I am a leftist, and many people assume that therefore I'm not patriotic because I don't support our war in Afghanistan, but nothing could be further from the truth. I love Canada, I love our reputation for being peacekeepers and peacemakers, not warmongers. I love everything that this country has given me, I love what I see as the potential for a very bright future, and I love our track record for trying to eliminate poverty at home and abroad. Sadly, I find that we're slipping lately, and as a patriotic citizen it is my duty to hold my government to it.
Even if we don't respect why our soldiers went to war, we must respect their sacrifice, because while this war in Afghanistan is something I am against, every fallen soldier and every living soldier has a place in my heart for what they have done. They are as patriotic as I am and went to serve their country, God bless them.

Who?


Oh, right.


Catcha next year.

The mere "dying for a cause" isn't enough to be a hero, or worthy of respect. The people you're showing your respect towards killed other people. It's not okay, and the fact that they and their families suffered does not make it okay. It's quite simple. War bad.

It earns my respect and I definitely wouldnt use the word 'mere' along with it

I know; I agree, I only say what I said because that whole 'moment of silence' as lost its meaning. It's being used too often. Why do we need it for 9/11 or anything else beyond 11/11? By moving it around you take away the original purpose, which is why I've come to believe that we can show our appreciation by expressing it in a new way.

it has lost it meaning and bring used to much
there is to much copying

Most people would respect how soliders lost their lives for their country regardless of their nationality. I have just as much sympathy for the dead German soliders as I do for the dead British ones. To give your life for your country should gain you respect regardless of your nationality.

I have somewhat of a grudge against the Australians, though; on ANZAC day every year they have a parade of veterans, and recently they allowed Turkish veterans and their descendants to march, but said they will probably never extend the offer to Germans, Japanese or Italians, because they were "dishonourable combatants." I take extreme offence at my grandfather and great-grandfather being called "dishonourable," just because they fought for the opposing side. I'd almost laugh and say that the Vietnamese from the 60s probably think the same about the Australians who fought there, but I can't, because my dad fought in 'Nam >_>

I have somewhat of a grudge against the Australians, though; on ANZAC day every year they have a parade of veterans, and recently they allowed Turkish veterans and their descendants to march, but said they will probably never extend the offer to Germans, Japanese or Italians, because they were "dishonourable combatants." I take extreme offence at my grandfather and great-grandfather being called "dishonourable," just because they fought for the opposing side. I'd almost laugh and say that the Vietnamese from the 60s probably think the same about the Australians who fought there, but I can't, because my dad fought in 'Nam >_>

if you dont like it leave

if you dont like it leave

I PLAN ON IT.

I just think it's disgusting that Central Powers and Axis veterans are considered "dishonourable," while Allied veterans are fucking untouchable demi-gods.

it has lost it meaning and bring used to much
there is to much copying
That's why we must be creative and make the moment contemporary so it can be remembered. There has to be something to set it apart. A celebration of freedom is important and how you remember those who gave it is also important. That's why you need something that isn't becoming over-used.

if you dont like it leave

Much better IMO to say "If you dont like it change it"

Much better IMO to say "If you dont like it change it"

only if you run the nation can you do that
but it cames with hell of a lot of paper work

and here in Poland, it's independence day.

I PLAN ON IT.

I just think it's disgusting that Central Powers and Axis veterans are considered "dishonourable," while Allied veterans are fucking untouchable demi-gods.

You have much to learn Grasshopper.

Indeed.

Yes, Panamanien, war is bad, but support for war and respect for soldiers are two different things. Granted, yes these soldiers did kill people, but they had to. Who are we to blame the soldiers themselves, when they are only doing their duty? Furthermore, people had to be killed to prevent the world from falling into Nazi control, so you are biting the hand that feeds you, at least to some extent. Someone giving their own life, their very LIFE, for a cause shows their selflessness, which shows their heroism and their worthiness of respect.

yes indeed
we dont want what happen to the those who were in nam to happen again do we

I just think it's disgusting that Central Powers and Axis veterans are considered "dishonourable," while Allied veterans are fucking untouchable demi-gods.
I hate to agree with him on this, but he has a point. Some of the bombing runs on German Cities near the end of the war, was the British getting revenge. It had very little, if any, military purpose. I can understand why the British were burning for revenge, but it was dishonourable.

The average German soldier was not a nazi hating Aryan. he was an average bloke doing what he was told. The Axis soldier were harshly treated.

For me, Rememberance day is a day to remember all soldiers of all nations. Not just my countrymen. Nearly all soldiers believe they are putting their life on the line for a higher cause, or they would lay down their arms.

The mere "dying for a cause" isn't enough to be a hero, or worthy of respect. The people you're showing your respect towards killed other people. It's not okay, and the fact that they and their families suffered does not make it okay. It's quite simple. War bad.

It's never that simple. Hypothetical. A woman has 200 hostages tied up. She is systematically killing one a minute. Some of them are your family. She's already killed 20 and you have no reason to think she will stop. You have an foolproof way to kill her. Do you do so, or do you let the other 180 people die? If you kill her, does that make you a bad person?

I must admit, your post is so simplistic, I am curious if this was an intentional troll, or a post by someone not older than 15?

I PLAN ON IT.

I just think it's disgusting that Central Powers and Axis veterans are considered "dishonourable," while Allied veterans are fucking untouchable demi-gods.

Maybe someday you will grow up. :eek:

That is naive. :rolleyes:

Yes war is bad...only the insane would argue otherwise...but the fact is that war is with us and always has been.

Let me ask you....would you have fought against the Nazi's?


Yes, I am naive, and really, really idealistic. That's beside the point.

War has not at always been with us. It's quite a modern invention. A couple of thousand years or so. And regardless, the fact that man has a tendency to behave like an idiot doesn't mean you should embrace that behaviour and pretend that the ones who do behave that way are heroes.
Don't you see that the very reason there was a need to fight the nazi's was that lots of people did their duty to their contry?

And I probably would not have fought the nazi's in the military way, no. I hope I would have the courage to resist them in other ways.

It earns my respect and I definitely wouldnt use the word 'mere' along with it

Well, you wouldn't respect me if I cleansed the world of all the nasty, sinful people who like to play chess, the game of the devil, by blowing myself up at my local chess club, would you?
The dying for a cause means nothing. What matters are the consequenses.

Yes, I am naive, and really, really idealistic. That's beside the point.

War has not at always been with us. It's quite a modern invention. A couple of thousand years or so. And regardless, the fact that man has a tendency to behave like an idiot doesn't mean you should embrace that behaviour and pretend that the ones who do behave that way are heroes.
Don't you see that the very reason there was a need to fight the nazi's was that lots of people did their duty to their contry?

And I probably would not have fought the nazi's in the military way, no. I hope I would have the courage to resist them in other ways.

Kudos on your honesty!

However I think history shows that human kind has been engaged in some form of warfare for more than just a 'couple of thousand years or so'.

As for the rest of your post...well...I think you are trying to extract a utopia from a very different reality...

Well, you wouldn't respect me if I cleansed the world of all the nasty, sinful people who like to play chess, the game of the devil, by blowing myself up at my local chess club, would you?
The dying for a cause means nothing. What matters are the consequenses.

The commitment to die for your cause earns my respect. It doesnt matter what your actions are. I might not like them but I respect that one facet of you.

And I probably would not have fought the nazi's in the military way, no. I hope I would have the courage to resist them in other ways.

And probably be shot in the back of the head once they figured out what you were up to.

Yes, Panamanien, war is bad, but support for war and respect for soldiers are two different things. Granted, yes these soldiers did kill people, but they had to. Who are we to blame the soldiers themselves, when they are only doing their duty? Furthermore, people had to be killed to prevent the world from falling into Nazi control, so you are biting the hand that feeds you, at least to some extent. Someone giving their own life, their very LIFE, for a cause shows their selflessness, which shows their heroism and their worthiness of respect.


The nazi soliders also did their duty. People doing their duty, dying for their contry, killing other people who did the same thing. Wouldn't it be nicer if they just hadn't? And it isn't the dying for a cause that is worthy of respect anyhow, which I demonstrated in my previous post.

When people do things because they're told, without regards to their own moral compass or sense, we should give them help, and maybe medication, but not treat them like heroes.

And I probably would not have fought the nazi's in the military way, no. I hope I would have the courage to resist them in other ways.

May I ask how you would have resisted the nazis in other ways?

The nazi soliders also did their duty. People doing their duty, dying for their contry, killing other people who did the same thing. Wouldn't it be nicer if they just hadn't? And it isn't the dying for a cause that is worthy of respect anyhow, which I demonstrated in my previous post.

When people do things because they're told, without regards to their own moral compass or sense, we should give them help, and maybe medication, but not treat them like heroes.

How do you know that all the people who fought were doing it because of a feeling of duty. Why do you think there was a need for propoganda if not to sway peoples moral compasses

May I ask how you would have resisted the nazis in other ways?

writing letters of complaint to Adolf?

writing letters of complaint to Adolf?

you end up with people with guns at your door step next day

writing letters of complaint to Adolf?It works for the U.N.!! Right? Right? .........

It's never that simple. Hypothetical. A woman has 200 hostages tied up. She is systematically killing one a minute. Some of them are your family. She's already killed 20 and you have no reason to think she will stop. You have an foolproof way to kill her. Do you do so, or do you let the other 180 people die? If you kill her, does that make you a bad person?

Obviously I would kill the woman. In any case, I hope I would be able to. Utilitariansim ftw. And I try not to think in terms of "bad" and "good" persons.


I must admit, your post is so simplistic, I am curious if this was an intentional troll, or a post by someone not older than 15?

Neither, actually. And of course, it's never that simple. I'm just fed up with people glorifying the "do as you're told, honour your country" thing. And I was in kind of a bad mood. My over-simplified first post was probably some sort of disrespect towards the people who make heroes out of lackeys, and I agree that it was most childish of me.

Maybe someday you will grow up. :eek:

And what about my post, praytell, was childish?

The commitment to die for your cause earns my respect. It doesnt matter what your actions are. I might not like them but I respect that one facet of you.

Oh my. Well, in that case I really don't have much to object to. I think your crazy wrong, of course, but you're consistent. Can't do much about your premises, can I? :)

May I ask how you would have resisted the nazis in other ways?

I wasn't there. I don't know. But people did lots of good, constructive things during WWII that didn't involve the army. Maybe I would find it necessary to fight like a soldier, even though I doubt it. (And I wouldn't be allowed anyways, being woman and all. Contrafactuals are messy.)

Why do you think there was a need for propoganda if not to sway peoples moral compasses

That's kind of my point. I think it's generally a bad idea to listen more to your governments moral compass than your own.


But again, if you really feel that the dying for a cause, no matter what that cause may be, is something to be honoured, then I really don't know how to object. It seems like you have very different premises from me, and I find that seldom leads anywhere. Peoples premises are often undebateable. However wrong they may be. ;)

Hello fellow NationStates users. I'm surprised nobody else has created a thread about this yet; Today is Remembrance Day. Or at least so here in Canada, and I think in other British Commonwealth countries like Australia as well. In the United States, on the same day, today is Veterans' Day. To be fair, I don't really know what about it is to be discussed, but as it is quite appropriate, I'd like to share with you a music video by Terry Kelly that I watched during the Remembrance Day assemblies at school this year, last year, and the year before, but still watched again after that third assembly...

"A Pittance of Time"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KYlrrAWCTRg

Though the video is Canadian, I believe its message applies just as well to Veterans' Day. I myself am willing to admit that I wouldn't be willing to make the kind of sacrifice these soldiers made; Giving their own lives for their country.

EDIT: I posted this early so that I could turn the computer off for the two minutes of silence, which I spent in my room, thinking about the very reality of people dying for their country. To be honest, since I didn't measure it, I had no way of knowing if it was two minutes, it may have been less, may have been more, but at least I spent some time thinking of the selflessness of the soldiers.


I remembered my grandfathers, cursed them, and got on with my life.

I remembered my grandfathers, cursed them, and got on with my life.

Why curse them? Unless they were SS, they have done nothing to be cursed for.

I wasn't there. I don't know. But people did lots of good, constructive things during WWII that didn't involve the army. Maybe I would find it necessary to fight like a soldier, even though I doubt it. (And I wouldn't be allowed anyways, being woman and all. Contrafactuals are messy.)

And did these things have the same size of impact against the Nazis that military action did?

That's kind of my point. I think it's generally a bad idea to listen more to your governments moral compass than your own.

You work with what you have especially when censorship is in effect

But again, if you really feel that the dying for a cause, no matter what that cause may be, is something to be honoured, then I really don't know how to object. It seems like you have very different premises from me, and I find that seldom leads anywhere. Peoples premises are often undebateable. However wrong they may be. ;)

I didnt use the word "honour". I said "respect"

Why curse them? Unless they were SS, they have done nothing to be cursed for.

Oh, so only the SS were guilty of any wrongdoing? I guess only the SS had Nazis? Or maybe only the SS participated in war crimes?

You really ARE a nazi apologist.

Kudos on your honesty!

However I think history shows that human kind has been engaged in some form of warfare for more than just a 'couple of thousand years or so'.

As for the rest of your post...well...I think you are trying to extract a utopia from a very different reality...

Actually, war kind of requires civilizations, and we haven't had those that long. Definitely less then ten thousand years, anyways. It's not like it's plainly obvious that it's an unevitable part of our nature.

And yes, I want a utopia. And again, it's beside the point. Even if you are right, and we can't keep from waging war, we don't have to glorify the ones making it possible.

Why curse them? Unless they were SS, they have done nothing to be cursed for.

They have.

One is still proudly telling the story how he cheated a Jewish family in my home town in 1937, promising to arrange passage for them to the USA. He made them empty their bank account and took everything of value from their household, from paintings to silverware. They never left the country.

The other one ... let's not get into what he did, shall we?

They have.

One is still proudly telling the story how he cheated a Jewish family in my home town in 1937, promising to arrange passage for them to the USA. He made them empty their bank account and took everything of value from their household, from paintings to silverware. They never left the country.

The other one ... let's not get into what he did, shall we?

Your family is fucked up. My grandfather did some Hitler Youthing in France near the end of the war and just got POWed, and my great-grandfather was killed on the Eastern Front.

I PLAN ON IT.

I just think it's disgusting that Central Powers and Axis veterans are considered "dishonourable," while Allied veterans are fucking untouchable demi-gods.
The victorious write history and the losers are the villains. That's why you hear about how the allies were the perfect heros and the others were nothing more than amoral, callous assholes who killed for the sheer fun of it, and not because they were forced into combat and given a choice of death or killing someone else's kid.

You're family is fucked up. My grandfather did some Hitler Youthing in France near the end of the war and just got POWed, and my great-grandfather was killed on the Eastern Front.

Make some German friends. I assure you that most of them will tell you similar stories about their families.
My best friends grnadmother insisted on being buried with her Mutterkreuz in 1994. :rolleyes:

Make some German friends. I assure you that most of them will tell you similar stories about their families.
My best friends grnadmother insisted on being buried with her Mutterkreuz in 1994. :rolleyes:

So what, I'm an exception?

I do remember that we had a family member who was fiercely anti-Nazi; they had to shut him up so they didn't all get killed.

So what, I'm an exception?

I do remember that we had a family member who was fiercely anti-Nazi; they had to shut him up so they didn't all get killed.

Don't buy the "we were all forced to obey" crap. Hitler would have got nowhere without popular support. And he had more than enough of it.

Actually, war kind of requires civilizations, and we haven't had those that long. Definitely less then ten thousand years, anyways. It's not like it's plainly obvious that it's an unevitable part of our nature.

And yes, I want a utopia. And again, it's beside the point. Even if you are right, and we can't keep from waging war, we don't have to glorify the ones making it possible.

Requires civilisation?? No. What it requires is a leader, men, weapons, a target and opportunity. Nothing about civilisation. Did Temujin come from a civilised society? Or the Visigoths? Vandals? The Hun?

You might bring up Sumer and Akkad....well an Army is useful in war...but not necessary to wage a war.

I suspect that Neolithic Age man was engaged in warfare...late Paleolithic Age
man did have some weapons but admittedly there is little evidence of actual wars being fought... but that does not preclude the possibility. We just do not know.

Sadly war is inevitable. Humans are warlike. Until we learn to subsume that aspect of our humanity we will continue to make war.

Obviously I would kill the woman. In any case, I hope I would be able to. Utilitariansim ftw. And I try not to think in terms of "bad" and "good" persons.
A good way to be. My hypothetical was very "black and white", intentionally, and potentially a bit childishly simple in itself, to be honest.
You triggred one of my sore points, which is blaming soldiers for conflicts, or ignoring their sacrifice. One of the most offensive things I have seen, is when Vietnam Vets were spat at and booed when they returned home. Spit at Kissinger, Nixon, LBJ, fine, but not the conscripts. Due to subsequent posts, I now don't think it wasn't your intention to put that across.

Neither, actually. And of course, it's never that simple. I'm just fed up with people glorifying the "do as you're told, honour your country" thing. And I was in kind of a bad mood. My over-simplified first post was probably some sort of disrespect towards the people who make heroes out of lackeys, and I agree that it was most childish of me.

I like the honesty in your post. I also think "Honour your country" is very flawed. The true patriot is willing to fight for his countrymen, not for his government.

Rememberance day doesn't have to be mindless Jingoism, "we kicked Kraut and Jap ass"! It is about remembering the past so it doesn't happen again. It is remembering the horror and sacrifice of war. It is about remembering the people who fought because they thought they had to.
Allies and Axis fighting for their way of life. Considering what was does to the Axis powers after WWI and how the colonial powers were squeezing out Japan, they honestly thought that without war, their way of life would be crushed. They would have no future. Most of the soldiers on all sides of WWI and WWII thought that if they lost, their families and way of life would be destroyed.

May I ask how you would have resisted the nazis in other ways?
Getting stoned and running around naked in the woods, of course. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_Pirates) :p

And probably be shot in the back of the head once they figured out what you were up to.

Possibly. But me shooting back wouldn't have rendered me hero status.

And did these things have the same size of impact against the Nazis that military action did?

Of course not.

You work with what you have especially when censorship is in effect

I was talking about respecting (although that is a very vague word) people who fell for the propaganda, and how it is a problem to do so, since they abandoned their own moral compass, and were being but tools. Not about people working with what they have. Probably the ones managing the concentration camps did just that. And again, with you still respecting that kind of devotion, I'm at a loss.

I didnt use the word "honour". I said "respect"

Just to clarify, would you please like to define "respect"?

Requires civilisation?? No. What it requires is a leader, men, weapons, a target and opportunity. Nothing about civilisation. Did Temujin come from a civilised society? Or the Visigoths? Vandals? The Hun?

You might bring up Sumer and Akkad....well an Army is useful in war...but not necessary to wage a war.

I suspect that Neolithic Age man was engaged in warfare...late Paleolithic Age
man did have some weapons but admittedly there is little evidence of actual wars being fought... but that does not preclude the possibility. We just do not know.

Sadly war is inevitable. Humans are warlike. Until we learn to subsume that aspect of our humanity we will continue to make war.

Well, I meant civilization in the widest term. I'd say the sumerians were civilized. My point was that when you live in tiny groups of twenty-something people war doesn't happen. It requires some kind of large scale.

But to be honest I didn't base that statement on knowledge. I just concluded.
And yes, maybe we can't help waging war. I like to think that's not the case, though. And regardless, we don't have to celebrate the ones fighting.

Meh
My parents are both veterans as well as two of my siblings. They still make me nuts.

I thought it was great to see on the news Aussie Skateboarding punks skating while the minutes silence was going on.
Dicks.:gundge:

2 Grandfathers, 1 Blood Great Uncle, 1 By Marriage served in World War Two

But family History in the military goes further back than that.
Beyond the Crimean.

A good way to be. My hypothetical was very "black and white", intentionally, and potentially a bit childishly simple in itself, to be honest.
You triggred one of my sore points, which is blaming soldiers for conflicts, or ignoring their sacrifice. One of the most offensive things I have seen, is when Vietnam Vets were spat at and booed when they returned home. Spit at Kissinger, Nixon, LBJ, fine, but not the conscripts. Due to subsequent posts, I now don't think it wasn't your intention to put that across..

That matter is kind of complicated. It's obvious that if no one agreed to be a soldier, war wouldn't happen. Not yet, anyways. On the other hand, many of the soldiers are really young and confused and taken advantage of, and probably shouldn't be considered responsible for their actions. They're just as much victims as the ones they shot. But then again, that should cause us to take care of them and rehabilitate them, rather then cheering them.


I like the honesty in your post. I also think "Honour your country" is very flawed. The true patriot is willing to fight for his countrymen, not for his government.

Well, it's better, but it's not good enough. For symmetry reasons, I should be just as inclined to fight for anyone, not just my countrymen. And if that is the case war means a real conflict of interest.

Rememberance day doesn't have to be mindless Jingoism, "we kicked Kraut and Jap ass"! It is about remembering the past so it doesn't happen again. It is remembering the horror and sacrifice of war. It is about remembering the people who fought because they thought they had to.
Allies and Axis fighting for their way of life. Considering what was does to the Axis powers after WWI and how the colonial powers were squeezing out Japan, they honestly thought that without war, their way of life would be crushed. They would have no future. Most of the soldiers on all sides of WWI and WWII thought that if they lost, their families and way of life would be destroyed.

I can agree with most of that. But it should be a day about how arrogant governments create reasons to set innocent people at each other, and the horrible tragedy of that.

May I ask how you would have resisted the nazis in other ways?

The power of his mind and by tossing flower petals at them. Non-violently.

Don't buy the "we were all forced to obey" crap. Hitler would have got nowhere without popular support. And he had more than enough of it.

Agreed ... On some level people are responsible for their government, How many governments could honestly continue to survive without the support of the majority of their populace AND an exterior threat.

Sure people can be scared, but not doing the right thing because you are scared and allowing large numbers of other innocents to be hurt by your cowardice is not an excuse.

The power of his mind and by tossing flower petals at them. Non-violently.

At least doing something that silly would not have been helping them

Excerpted from Cat's Cradle.
Kurt Vonnegut, 1963

We are gathered here, friends," he said, "to honor lo Hoon-year Mora-toorz tut Zamoo-cratz-ya, children dead, all dead, all murdered in war. It is customary on days like this to call such lost children men. I am unable to call them men for this simple reason: that in the same war in which lo Hoon-year Mora-toorz tut Zamoo-cratz-ya died, my own son died.

"My soul insists that I mourn not a man but a child.

"I do not say that children at war do not die like men, if they have to die. To their everlasting honor and our everlasting shame, they do die like men, thus making possible the manly jubilation of patriotic holidays.

"But they are murdered children all the same.

"And I propose to you that if we are to pay our sincere respects to the hundred lost children of San Lorenzo, that we might best spend the day despising what killed them; which is to say, the stupidity and viciousness of all mankind.

"Perhaps, when we remember wars, we should take off our clothes and paint ourselves blue and go on all fours all day long and grunt like pigs. That would surely be more appropriate than noble oratory and shows of flags and well-oiled guns.

"I do not mean to be ungrateful for the fine, martial show we are about to see - and a thrilling show it really will be."

He looked each of us in the eye, and then he commented very softly, throwing it away, "And hooray I say for thrilling shows."

We had to strain our ears to hear what Minton said next.

"But if today is really in honor of a hundred children murdered in war," he said, "is today a day for a thrilling show?

"The answer is yes, on one condition: that we, the celebrants are working consciously and tirelessly to reduce the stupidity and viciousness of ourselves and all mankind."