NationStates Jolt Archive

Terrorist kill Americans = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.

Terrorist kill Americans = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.

Yeah, thats about right. Terrorist wan to kill me to make a political point and I pay the government to protect me from them.

What's your point?

Terrorist kill innocent American civilians in an attempt to force their beliefs on us = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.

Yeah, I agree.

Doesn't mean I like the war in Iraq, but that's only because Sadam wasn't nearly as big a threat as other people, and we really needed to focus on Afghanistan and bin Laden. I mean, it's great that he's not in power and stuff, and he is an evil man, but you gotta have priorities.

Well, see, the problem with this topic is that the OP is pretty much spot on. Not many people are going to disagree with the idea that terrorism is wrong and the basic American intent to rid the world of it is noble.

Terrorist kill Americans = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.

More like this:

Americans deliberately kill terrorists = oh no, they're an evil occupying force and they kill babies

Terrorists deliberately kill Americans = good, the fuckers deserve it, not let's feign sympathy and laugh at them behind their backs

Hypocrisy comes in all forms.

More like this:

Americans deliberately kill terrorists = oh no, they're an evil occupying force and they kill babies

Terrorists deliberately kill Americans = good, the fuckers deserve it, not let's feign sympathy and laugh at them behind their backs

Hypocrisy comes in all forms.

That's so offensive that you'd say that about Americans! You left out that we kick puppies, too! GOD! :D

More like this:

Americans deliberately kill terrorists = oh no, they're an evil occupying force and they kill babies

Terrorists deliberately kill Americans = good, the fuckers deserve it, not let's feign sympathy and laugh at them behind their backs

Hypocrisy comes in all forms.

Pfft. I've never denied not having sympathy for people from the US dying in terrorist attacks, so no hypocrisy here. What goes around, comes around.

Pfft. I've never denied not having sympathy for people from the US dying in terrorist attacks, so no hypocrisy here. What goes around, comes around.

So you believe collective punishment?

Pfft. I've never denied not having sympathy for people from the US dying in terrorist attacks, so no hypocrisy here. What goes around, comes around.

Well, at least you're consistent in believeing that I, as an American citizen, deserve to die in a terrorist attack because of the actions of my government, for which I didn't vote.

Many other people in Europe were putting on big shows of sympathy for the Americans, but I had a professor in Britain at the time who discovered that people, by and large, thought we had it coming, especially young people who were swayed by hearing about all the "crimes" the U.S. had committed overseas. Well gollllll-eeeeeee. If we're going by that logic, then someone needs to go fly a few jetliners into Moscow and St. Petersburg for all the shit they pulled during the Cold War as well.

I don't believe for a second that most Europeans felt bad for America on 9/11. Not for a second.

So you believe collective punishment?

Karma, darling. Karma.

Karma, darling. Karma.

Uh huh. So the firefighters trying to save people from the WTC deserved to die?

You know nothing about karma.

Well, at least you're consistent in believeing that I, as an American citizen, deserve to die in a terrorist attack because of the actions of my government, for which I didn't vote.

Many other people in Europe were putting on big shows of sympathy for the Americans, but I had a professor in Britain at the time who discovered that people, by and large, thought we had it coming, especially young people who were swayed by hearing about all the "crimes" the U.S. had committed overseas. Well gollllll-eeeeeee. If we're going by that logic, then someone needs to go fly a few jetliners into Moscow and St. Petersburg for all the shit they pulled during the Cold War as well.

I don't believe for a second that most Europeans felt bad for America on 9/11. Not for a second.

I believed New York had it coming after the decades of finance the Irish population provided to the IRA while they came and blow up our civilians in the UK.

The issue of how anti-US terrorism is linked to US foreign policy is a fairly touchy matter among certain USians, especially since the US 9/11. It is horrible that innocents died in the WTC attacks, but US foreign policy is indirectly and partly responsible for this atrocity.

Well, at least you're consistent in believeing that I, as an American citizen, deserve to die in a terrorist attack because of the actions of my government, for which I didn't vote.

Did I write you deserved it? Did I write you should be killed? No. I just wrote that I will have no sympathy, in general, when it happens. I have no sympathy for countries that stir shit getting shit.

Many other people in Europe were putting on big shows of sympathy for the Americans, but I had a professor in Britain at the time who discovered that people, by and large, thought we had it coming, especially young people who were swayed by hearing about all the "crimes" the U.S. had committed overseas. Well gollllll-eeeeeee. If we're going by that logic, then someone needs to go fly a few jetliners into Moscow and St. Petersburg for all the shit they pulled during the Cold War as well.

Oh, Russia did and is doing awful, awful things in Chechnya. Can't say that I let my day be perturbed all that much when they meet with retaliation. Pity, yes, but I don't feign like they shouldn't have seen it coming.

I don't believe for a second that most Europeans felt bad for America on 9/11. Not for a second.

I didn't feel bad for the US as a country, no. I commiserated with the people stricken, it's a shitty thing to have happen, no doubt. But, really, who was surprised that it happened, and who could not see why? You don't go around shafting people without getting shafted back. You don't get to go "oh, but our deaths are so much more important and sympathy-worthy."

So you believe collective punishment?

And you don't? I thought you supported it when Israelis kill Palestinians, cuz you generally assume Palestinian = Terrorist. Or Muslim = Terrorist, for that matter.

Well, see, the problem with this topic is that the OP is pretty much spot on. Not many people are going to disagree with the idea that terrorism is wrong and the basic American intent to rid the world of it is noble.
noble? Perhaps misguided (in the best light) or flat out disingenuous in the worst.

And you don't? I thought you supported it when Israelis kill Palestinians, cuz you generally assume Palestinian = Terrorist. Or Muslim = Terrorist, for that matter.

Then you thought wrong. I support Israel eliminating hamas, hezbollah and extremists in general.

noble? Perhaps misguided (in the best light) or flat out disingenuous in the worst.

I said the BASIC INTENT. How can the intent to eliminate terrorists who kill innocent people be anything but noble.

Well, at least you're consistent in believeing that I, as an American citizen, deserve to die in a terrorist attack because of the actions of my government, for which I didn't vote.

Many other people in Europe were putting on big shows of sympathy for the Americans, but I had a professor in Britain at the time who discovered that people, by and large, thought we had it coming, especially young people who were swayed by hearing about all the "crimes" the U.S. had committed overseas. Well gollllll-eeeeeee. If we're going by that logic, then someone needs to go fly a few jetliners into Moscow and St. Petersburg for all the shit they pulled during the Cold War as well.

I don't believe for a second that most Europeans felt bad for America on 9/11. Not for a second.

Why should they? Firstly, the USA does fuck around in the ME a lot. Secondly, only 2000 people died. You aren't the centre of our world. Sorry if we don't care enough when you international dickery gets you burnt.

Then you thought wrong. I support Israel eliminating hamas, hezbollah and extremists in general.

Oh, so you support the abstract ideals, but you'd like to dissassociate yourself from the nitty gritty of dead Palestinian civilians?

You can't have it both ways, you know. You either support someone's actions or you don't. And if those actions lead to certain consequences, you support those consequences as well.

Did I write you deserved it? Did I write you should be killed? No. I just wrote that I will have no sympathy, in general, when it happens. I have no sympathy for countries that stir shit getting shit.

Not me personally. Me as an American. The bottom line is, as a country, a wake-up call was necessary, and all that was woken up was the fearmongers who were legitimized. It's a sad state of affairs. Civilians died, though, and not one of them deserved it. To say that those people, who did precisely shit to deserve death, don't deserve some sympathy is exceedignly callous. Say what you will about the U.S. Leave the civilians out of it.

Oh, Russia did and is doing awful, awful things in Chechnya. Can't say that I let my day be perturbed all that much when they meet with retaliation. Pity, yes, but I don't feign like they shouldn't have seen it coming.

Not to mention the awful things they did in the Ukraine, probably some of the Stans, and the Baltic states. It doesn't warrant blowing up a bunch of civilians. If anything is deserved, people like Putin should be tarred, feathered, and ridden otu of town on a railroad.

I didn't feel bad for the US as a country, no. I commiserated with the people stricken, it's a shitty thing to have happen, no doubt. But, really, who was surprised that it happened, and who could not see why? You don't go around shafting people without getting shafted back. You don't get to go "oh, but our deaths are so much more important and sympathy-worthy."

That last part I will grant. Bush or someone said that Hurricane Katrina was equivalent to the tsunami. Both are tragedies, yes, but 3,000 American deaths (especially when the government does shit about it, as if they want people to die) is not equivalent to 300,000+ deaths from the tsunami just because those people are foreigners.

However, I don't think there had been a terrorist attack, per se, of the magnitude of 9/11 anywhere in the world before. Even Pearl Harbor doesn't equal it - it was an act of war on a military base, and it was only a surprise attack because of a communication error on part of the Japanese. The al-Qaida fuckers had no intention of radioing Washington, and they wanted to kill civilians because of a warped religious ideology. May they all rot in hell, and may the passengers aboard Flight 93 spend eternity laughing at their torture.

Why should they? Firstly, the USA does fuck around in the ME a lot. Secondly, only 2000 people died. You aren't the centre of our world. Sorry if we don't care enough when you international dickery gets you burnt.

Exactly. This whole notion that I should sympathise solely because the people who died were from the US is ludicrous. I sympathised a lot more with the children in Africa who died from starvation that very same day, and those were a lot more numerous than the people who died in those two buildings. I really don't see why I should have diverted my sympathy to them - it's not like people in the US did with, say, the M/S Estonia, and, well, what do I care that they didn't?

I said the BASIC INTENT. How can the intent to eliminate terrorists who kill innocent people be anything but noble.
Hmm, lets see.. What if the intent to eliminate terrorism was an entirely disingenuous attempt to muster up a pretext for a war based on several unsavoury ulterior motives?

Do you actually believe everything your government tells you?

Besides, a 'war on terror' couldn't be anything other than disingenuous or inane. It's like declaring a 'war on guerilla combat', or a 'war on nationalism' (being a military tactic and socio-psychological idea respectively).

Why should they? Firstly, the USA does fuck around in the ME a lot. Secondly, only 2000 people died. You aren't the centre of our world. Sorry if we don't care enough when you international dickery gets you burnt.

Everybody's fucked around in the ME; frankly, the U.S. didn't start it and they won't finish it. By that logic, someone should go back to after WWI and blow up London and Paris for their role in all the ethnic squabbling today. We just got the worst of it. Sorry if we don't consider Europe entirely blameless in this whole ordeal either. I'll own up to the U.S. having sone some bad shit. But I'll truck out all the bad shit I can think of as well.

Europe is the gang of bullies that stuffs an annoying kid in his locker, and when the U.S. hears him cry to get out, the U.S. is the one trying to demand concessions from the kid. Then, when the kid escapes, he trips the U.S., and the U.S. falls down the stairs and breaks his arm. Europe then laughs at the U.S. and buddies up to the annoying kid, never mind that they were the ones who stuffed him in the locker in the first place.

Everybody's fucked around in the ME; frankly, the U.S. didn't start it and they won't finish it. By that logic, someone should go back to after WWI and blow up London and Paris for their role in all the ethnic squabbling today. We just got the worst of it. Sorry if we don't consider Europe entirely blameless in this whole ordeal either. I'll own up to the U.S. having sone some bad shit. But I'll truck out all the bad shit I can think of as well.You know thats not true, don't play games with me. The US economy is built of the chaos they generate in the ME. God forbid a bit of stability allowing a sensible government to contest the US hegemony over ME oil.

Europe is the gang of bullies that stuffs an annoying kid in his locker, and when the U.S. hears him cry to get out, the U.S. is the one trying to demand concessions from the kid. Then, when the kid escapes, he trips the U.S., and the U.S. falls down the stairs and breaks his arm. Europe then laughs at the U.S. and buddies up to the annoying kid, never mind that they were the ones who stuffed him in the locker in the first place.I'm sorry, I seem to have misplaced my violin. Why don't you try in a few days, and we can all sit down and cry for poor little USA, victim of the world.

...However, I don't think there had been a terrorist attack, per se, of the magnitude of 9/11 anywhere in the world before. Even Pearl Harbor doesn't equal it - it was an act of war on a military base, and it was only a surprise attack because of a communication error on part of the Japanese. The al-Qaida fuckers had no intention of radioing Washington, and they wanted to kill civilians because of a warped religious ideology. May they all rot in hell, and may the passengers aboard Flight 93 spend eternity laughing at their torture.

I see this meme a lot. Frankly, I am puzzled as to how exactly you can be sure of these people's motives. The Crusades were ostensibly religious, but the winner controlled almost all trade between Asia and Europe at the time. Religion is a good way to whip up the troops, but it is not necessary for the commanders or the policy makers to believe it.

I think that the AQ and related groups have more on their agenda than merely religion.

I think that the AQ and related groups have more on their agenda than merely religion.
Or perhaps those that commisioned them?

The issue of how anti-US terrorism is linked to US foreign policy is a fairly touchy matter among certain USians, especially since the US 9/11. It is horrible that innocents died in the WTC attacks, but US foreign policy is indirectly and partly responsible for this atrocity.

That's the central tenet of Chalmers Johnson's book Blowback. A very enlightening read.

Or perhaps those that commisioned them?


Thanks. Another level of complexity added to the quagmire of the enigma of the puzzle of the mystery of the problem of the Middle East.

That's the central tenet of Chalmers Johnson's book Blowback. A very enlightening read.


An excerpt:
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.

I agree with this, but his punditry may cause certain reactionaries to believe that liberals think that the US is solely responsible for these threats, which I feel is a simplistic and reductionist viewpoint.

You know thats not true, don't play games with me. The US economy is built of the chaos they generate in the ME. God forbid a bit of stability allowing a sensible government to contest the US hegemony over ME oil.

I'm sorry, I seem to have misplaced my violin. Why don't you try in a few days, and we can all sit down and cry for poor little USA, victim of the world.

Ummm...who drew up those borders? Who put the Kurds, Sunnis, and Shi'ites in Iraq together? Who mandated Palestine and encouraged Jews to move to the Middle East? If I recall correctly, the U.S. didn't want diddly poo to do with that. Stop trying to make Europe appear infallible here. Not all the problems of the world are the U.S.'s fault, as much as you want them to be.

I see this meme a lot. Frankly, I am puzzled as to how exactly you can be sure of these people's motives. The Crusades were ostensibly religious, but the winner controlled almost all trade between Asia and Europe at the time. Religion is a good way to whip up the troops, but it is not necessary for the commanders or the policy makers to believe it.

I think that the AQ and related groups have more on their agenda than merely religion.

It's not all religion, at least not for the higher-ups. The individuals who attacked the WTC and who blow up buses, restaurants, and what-not in Israel believe they get seven wives and 70 virgins in heaven. That's so religious it's...well, religious. If the entire aim were getting American military bases out of Saudi Arabia (which is why the group al-Qaida was formed in the first place) then attacks would go primarily against that military base as well as others in the ME. What bin Laden's motivations are...I'm not sure. Probably to be remembered as a hero and as the guy who started the downfall of Western civilization.

Not me personally. Me as an American. The bottom line is, as a country, a wake-up call was necessary, and all that was woken up was the fearmongers who were legitimized. It's a sad state of affairs. Civilians died, though, and not one of them deserved it. To say that those people, who did precisely shit to deserve death, don't deserve some sympathy is exceedignly callous. Say what you will about the U.S. Leave the civilians out of it.

Why? You didn't leave the Afghani civilians out of it, nor the Iraqi ones. Why should US civilians be special? Why should they be the ones with faces and stories and other accoutrements of humanity, while the others languish in anonymity? I'll tell you what - when the latter get as much attention and demands for sympathy as those in the US, I'll see if I can't take the time to go "oh, those people on the other side of the globe, my heart bleeds for them."

Not to mention the awful things they did in the Ukraine, probably some of the Stans, and the Baltic states. It doesn't warrant blowing up a bunch of civilians. If anything is deserved, people like Putin should be tarred, feathered, and ridden otu of town on a railroad.

The thing being that Chechnyan civilians have died as well. It's insane of course that they should, or that Russian ones should either, but whom to give this worthless sympathy of mine? Who is more deserving of it? If they all are, well, then you'll see why my sympathy for the people who died on 11/9 might get spread awfully thin because of all the new candidates vying for it.

That last part I will grant. Bush or someone said that Hurricane Katrina was equivalent to the tsunami. Both are tragedies, yes, but 3,000 American deaths (especially when the government does shit about it, as if they want people to die) is not equivalent to 300,000+ deaths from the tsunami just because those people are foreigners.

That did irk me greatly.

However, I don't think there had been a terrorist attack, per se, of the magnitude of 9/11 anywhere in the world before. Even Pearl Harbor doesn't equal it - it was an act of war on a military base, and it was only a surprise attack because of a communication error on part of the Japanese. The al-Qaida fuckers had no intention of radioing Washington, and they wanted to kill civilians because of a warped religious ideology. May they all rot in hell, and may the passengers aboard Flight 93 spend eternity laughing at their torture.

How does one measure this magnitude? Compare their deaths with the ones of the children in Beslan - are children worth more than adults sympathy-wise, propaganda-wise, attention-wise? What?

No, they were of this "magnitude" because they happened to afflict the US. Admit it. For being a country that claims not to care about world opinion, you sure are quick to bogart the attention, be damned the person who doesn't grant you it.

Ummm...who drew up those borders? Who put the Kurds, Sunnis, and Shi'ites in Iraq together? Who mandated Palestine and encouraged Jews to move to the Middle East? If I recall correctly, the U.S. didn't want diddly poo to do with that. Stop trying to make Europe appear infallible here. Not all the problems of the world are the U.S.'s fault, as much as you want them to be.
Whoa there, when and where did I try to make europe seem 'infallible'? I didn't even mention them once. Not even in implication. Nor did I do such for the problems of the world. Nor did I mention the founding of Israel. I am just noting that the US has repeatedly butraped the ME over and over and over for the past few decades. Thats just including he official wars, let's not forget all of the CIA funded black ops. Do you need me to construct you a list?

Why? You didn't leave the Afghani civilians out of it, nor the Iraqi ones. Why should US civilians be special? Why should they be the ones with faces and stories and other accoutrements of humanity, while the others languish in anonymity? I'll tell you what - when the latter get as much attention and demands for sympathy as those in the US, I'll see if I can't take the time to go "oh, those people on the other side of the globe, my heart bleeds for them."

I didn't do shit. I didn't go blowing up Afghanistan and Iraq. Granted, a few asshole soldiers went and tortured people...and probably more than that because the asshole government approved it. But I as an American am deserving of disdain and hatred from the rest of the world just because of the actions of some of my military.

And frankly, people over here are pretty upset about that as well. Just watch as our Marines are spit on, assaulted, and called "baby killers" when they return from Iraq.

And while we're at it - if U.S. military people kill foreign civilians, and then foreign terrorists kill U.S. civilians, that's still a blatant miscarriage of justice. But since they're Americans, they get laughed at instead of ignored.

The thing being that Chechnyan civilians have died as well. It's insane of course that they should, or that Russian ones should either, but whom to give this worthless sympathy of mine? Who is more deserving of it? If they all are, well, then you'll see why my sympathy for the people who died on 11/9 might get spread awfully thin because of all the new candidates vying for it.

Well gee whiz, why not just be a universally callous asshole and not care one way or another about any civilians? Chechens die at the hands of Russians? Israelis die at the hands of Palestinians? Iraqis die at the hands of Americans? Who gives a shit? Sure would be easier that way for all of us.

How does one measure this magnitude? Compare their deaths with the ones of the children in Beslan - are children worth more than adults sympathy-wise, propaganda-wise, attention-wise? What?

No, they were of this "magnitude" because they happened to afflict the US. Admit it.

"Magnitude" = number of deaths. 9/11 was 3,000 deaths. I've never heard of a single terrorist attack that took out 3,000 civilians other than that one. Also, it was caught on video, or some of it was. That's why the attention and the propaganda.

That and the perpetrators were in a foreign country and those who committed it were already dead, so treating them like criminals a la Timothy McVeigh was out of the question. The justice system in Spain could do that. It's hard to prosecute 19 dead people.

Whoa there, when and where did I try to make europe seem 'infallible'? I didn't even mention them once. Not even in implication. Nor did I do such for the problems of the world. Nor did I mention the founding of Israel. I am just noting that the US has repeatedly butraped the ME over and over and over for the past few decades. Thats just including he official wars, let's not forget all of the CIA funded black ops. Do you need me to construct you a list?

You're blaming every problem in the ME on the U.S. The whole ball got rolling with the Europeans. You ignore that. Instead, it's more along the lines of "Americans kill people in the ME, so it's OK not to care when a bunch of civilians die." Bottom line - Europe started it, the U.S. continued it, and now Europe is pissed at the U.S. for continuing it.

It's not all religion, at least not for the higher-ups. The individuals who attacked the WTC and who blow up buses, restaurants, and what-not in Israel believe they get seven wives and 70 virgins in heaven. That's so religious it's...well, religious. If the entire aim were getting American military bases out of Saudi Arabia (which is why the group al-Qaida was formed in the first place) then attacks would go primarily against that military base as well as others in the ME. What bin Laden's motivations are...I'm not sure. Probably to be remembered as a hero and as the guy who started the downfall of Western civilization.
Try this on for size; What if Bin Laden... DIDN'T DO IT! The only reason we think he did is because of a questionable confession and constant all saturating 'arguementum ad nauseum' by the Bush Admin. Seriously, think about it. Do you truly believe that this freak incident, and all random proceedings as a consequence thereof were just a coincidence? I'm not saying I know what happened, however I can guarantee you that the official story didn't happen.

Karma, darling. Karma.

Between this and your belief that Iran's nuclear program is 100% peaceful, I think I can declare that you have no reasoning skills.

The issue of how anti-US terrorism is linked to US foreign policy is a fairly touchy matter among certain USians, especially since the US 9/11. It is horrible that innocents died in the WTC attacks, but US foreign policy is indirectly and partly responsible for this atrocity.

Isn't there a ban on the term USians?

You're blaming every problem in the ME on the U.S. The whole ball got rolling with the Europeans. You ignore that. Instead, it's more along the lines of "Americans kill people in the ME, so it's OK not to care when a bunch of civilians die." Bottom line - Europe started it, the U.S. continued it, and now Europe is pissed at the U.S. for continuing it.
I am certainly not blaming every problem in the ME on USA, I am pointing out that USA is the sole antagonist in a long chain of seperate and distinct problems within the ME. You seem to view ME history as one homogenous unit of problems, which was somehow all started by europe. No the middle east is a region of many nations with interweaving probblems and histories. The problems caused by Europe almost a century ago are seperate to the surgically deliberate problems caused by the US within the last half-century. The bottom line isn't that Europe is pissed at the US for all of their shit in the ME, who gives a fuck what Europe did or thinks. The bottom line is that USA has been systematically causing chaos in the ME for at least 40 years, and the people of the ME are pissed. You can't just point at Europe and say "They did it first!"

Try this on for size; What if Bin Laden... DIDN'T DO IT! The only reason we think he did is because of a questionable confession and constant all saturating 'arguementum ad nauseum' by the Bush Admin. Seriously, think about it. Do you truly believe that this freak incident, and all random proceedings as a consequence thereof were just a coincidence? I'm not saying I know what happened, however I can guarantee you that the official story didn't happen.

Go back to your conspiracy sites.

Your tin foil hat seems to be failing you little boy.

Isn't there a ban on the term USians?Who cares? Call me an AUSian, see if I give a damn. Hypersensitive bitc...

Go back to your conspiracy sites.

Your tin foil hat seems to be failing you little boy.
I didn't mention any conspiracy. Nor do I subscribe to one. I just know bullshit when I see it.

If that is too hard for you to deal with run back to Foxnews.com and lap up the soothing sense of security you get from their simple and reassuring black and white stories.

I didn't do shit. I didn't go blowing up Afghanistan and Iraq. Granted, a few asshole soldiers went and tortured people...and probably more than that because the asshole government approved it. But I as an American am deserving of disdain and hatred from the rest of the world just because of the actions of some of my military.

They didn't do shit. They didn't fly those planes into those towers. Granted, a few ass holes went and did it... and, the government probably approved it. But they as non-USAmericans are not deserving of attention or this oh, so sought for sympathy of mine.

And frankly, people over here are pretty upset about that as well. Just watch as our Marines are spit on, assaulted, and called "baby killers" when they return from Iraq.

And while we're at it - if U.S. military people kill foreign civilians, and then foreign terrorists kill U.S. civilians, that's still a blatant miscarriage of justice. But since they're Americans, they get laughed at instead of ignored.

I was under the impression that what I did was trying to ignore them as much as they probably did those who weren't them or people they deigned important. Again, where have I laughed at them? Where have I meted out retaliation merit?

Well gee whiz, why not just be a universally callous asshole and not care one way or another about any civilians? Chechens die at the hands of Russians? Israelis die at the hands of Palestinians? Iraqis die at the hands of Americans? Who gives a shit? Sure would be easier that way for all of us.

Alrighty, then. Abracadabra, simsalabim - sympathy granted to them all! Wow, I can already see the difference each 1 millionth of it is doing.

"Magnitude" = number of deaths. 9/11 was 3,000 deaths. I've never heard of a single terrorist attack that took out 3,000 civilians other than that one. Also, it was caught on video, or some of it was. That's why the attention and the propaganda.

I'm sorry, but I do not find 3000 deaths or media attention sufficient reasons for me to afford grander importance to those involved. As you said yourself, how do those stack up to 300 000? Which we, by the way, hear very little of these days, while 11/9, oh, well, it's like a veritable pity mantra.

That and the perpetrators were in a foreign country and those who committed it were already dead, so treating them like criminals a la Timothy McVeigh was out of the question. The justice system in Spain could do that. It's hard to prosecute 19 dead people.

This is your national trauma, not mine. Do not expect me to treat it as if it were.

Try this on for size; What if Bin Laden... DIDN'T DO IT! The only reason we think he did is because of a questionable confession and constant all saturating 'arguementum ad nauseum' by the Bush Admin. Seriously, think about it. Do you truly believe that this freak incident, and all random proceedings as a consequence thereof were just a coincidence? I'm not saying I know what happened, however I can guarantee you that the official story didn't happen.

There are too many damn conspiracy theories out there as it is. Frankly, here's what I understand of the situation - the government didn't cause it directly, but they fucked up big time in stopping it. Air traffic control didn't know what the hell it was doing, airport security did diddly-shit about background checks and letting people on planes, and the student visas that the hijackers used were more full of holes than a big block of Swiss cheese. I don't think the government deliberately allowed it to happen. I think two things:

First, they did fuck-all about stopping it; apparently they didn't think bin laden could actually pull it off, and if he could, he's take out some ugly-ass statue of some Confederate general in Mississippi along with maybe about eight civilians. Oh yeah, and they could just round up the fuckers that did it and convict them of murder in...oh, right about now and execute them next July. Major miscalculation on their part.

Second off, they did a lot better at capitalizing on it. It became an excuse for Curious George's Big Happy Adventure in Iraq. It also became justification for circumventing the Constitution and starting up a bunch of domestic horseshit that had nothing to do with terrorism.

I believe bin Laden admitted he was behind 9/11 at some point. I doubt he would lie about that, unless he's a dirty flip-flopper, and we all know how much America hates that.

Isn't there a ban on the term USians?

last time I checked, there was only a ban on threads dealing with the term "USian." Which is an ugly-ass term. Frankly, "Yank" rolls off the tongue better. So for those of you who can't bear to use the word "American," try "Yank" on for size. It's monosyllabic.

Between this and your belief that Iran's nuclear program is 100% peaceful, I think I can declare that you have no reasoning skills.

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sad021.gif

You're really hurting my feelings with your straw men.

*snip*

Ah details details. I am not talking about conspiracy theories on what really happened and how. I am talking about using your head and actually looking at the players in this act. Did Osama Bin Laden fly a couple of planes into the Twin Towers because he hates USA? I doubt it. Maybe he did it, and maybe he didn't, but if he did, he would have had a better reason than that. Just remember, everything that happens in history is ALL about economics. There never was a religious war. Nor was there a war for land, or pride, or anything else other than economics.

Ah details details. I am not talking about conspiracy theories on what really happened and how. I am talking about using your head and actually looking at the players in this act. Did Osama Bin Laden fly a couple of planes into the Twin Towers because he hates USA? I doubt it. Maybe he did it, and maybe he didn't, but if he did, he would have had a better reason than that. Just remember, everything that happens in history is ALL about economics. There never was a religious war. Nor was there a war for land, or pride, or anything else other than economics.

Well gollllllll-eeeeee, bin Laden was a rich bastard; we know that. And we all know that economics is merely a subset of power, which is what all wars are fought over, economic or not. Religion is a guise of power; people may fight for religion while others fight for economics. Frankly, the higher-ups probably have many motivations, with expanding their power being the greatest. If bin Laden makes himself a hero in all this, he greatly increases how much power and influence he has. He didn't attack the U.S. because he hates the U.S. He hattacked it because a bunch of other people do. Osama bin laden is no different from every other dictator, demagogue, sect leader, or rebel leader that existed - he plays to his audience. Those who don't play to their audience don't last long. Plain and simple.

So if Osama did this all for the power and the glory, where is he enjoying it all now? Under some rock? In a CIA witness protection scheme somewhere. Who knows. The point is, power/glory can't have been a reasonable motive for such an attack, seeing as you don't get to enjoy either once it's done. No I think that Osama bin Laden is probably just another puppet. Admittedly with his own goals, but meaningless ones. Anyhow, we are getting sidetracked, and I have to go anyway. If you want to believe Osama masterminded this whole thing, for glory, and that USA was having a bad day security-wise, go ahead.

It's not all religion, at least not for the higher-ups. The individuals who attacked the WTC and who blow up buses, restaurants, and what-not in Israel believe they get seven wives and 70 virgins in heaven. That's so religious it's...well, religious. If the entire aim were getting American military bases out of Saudi Arabia (which is why the group al-Qaida was formed in the first place) then attacks would go primarily against that military base as well as others in the ME. What bin Laden's motivations are...I'm not sure. Probably to be remembered as a hero and as the guy who started the downfall of Western civilization.

Right. So in addition to religion, you think these people's motive also include heroism and the downfall of western civilisation, and may include getting American military bases out of Saudi Arabia. (EDIT: actually I read some posts that popped while I was typing and you do not believe something this simple.)

I wonder where this meme comes from and why it is rarely questioned.

Can you provide me with a link showing Al-Qaeda's goals with respect to Saudi / US military bases, please?

Terrorist kill Americans = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.
D'oh... It's the freedom to kill terrorists.

Terrorist kill Americans = its bad, terrorist are evil.

Americans deliberately kill terrorist = no big deal, its protecting freedom.

That's not the hypocrisy. If you're in a "him or me" confrontation it's not hypocrisy to want the survivor to be yourself. Even if it's with someone with whom you have no other quarrel.

The hypocrisy is in thinking that terrorists are evil because they kill innocent people, but then being willing to terrorize innocent people in response. Like knowing that the vast majority of people in Gitmo did nothing wrong and continuing to argue that they did, or arguing that it doesn't matter that innocent people are being treated as terrorists because "they're not American citizens, so they have no rights."

That's the hypocrisy.

killing individual proven terrorists, is fine by me. but bombing countries cause they are muslim and some terrorists are muslim is stupid.