NationStates Jolt Archive

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

I like burritos and peanut butter cups. :)

Israel does not accidently attack civilians, it is intential. The lastest example being the slaughter of 20 innocent Palestinian women and children getting ready for school. Any attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is nothing more than a justified response to murder and aggression. Israelis feel their attacks will break the will of the Palestinian people, however it has the opposite effect.

Israel does not accidently attack civilians, it is intential. The lastest example being the slaughter of 20 innocent Palestinian women and children getting ready for school. Any attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is nothing more than a justified response to murder and aggression. Israelis feel their attacks will break the will of the Palestinian people, however it has the opposite effect.

No, this is what you believe. The Palestinians fire rockets into Israel unjustifiedly, the Israelis counter against the terrorists, sometimes they miss.

No, this is what you believe. The Palestinians fire rockets into Israel unjustifiedly, the Israelis counter against the terrorists, sometimes they miss.

oh, well as long as you will easily brush off the deaths of innocent Palestinians, I too will brush off the deaths of Israelis.

Why can't we just conndem when either side inntentionaly kills innocent civilians, and just admit that by now there's plenty of blame to be passed around?

Why can't we just conndem when either side inntentionaly kills innocent civilians, and just admit that by now there's plenty of blame to be passed around?

I like my solution. Kick everyone out and give it to the Kurds.

I like my solution. Kick everyone out and give it to the Kurds.

No, its all supposed to be given to me, as I am apparently the antichrist, somehow. Now bow and worship. -desecrates things-

No, its all supposed to be given to me, as I am apparently the antichrist, somehow. Now bow and worship. -desecrates things-

Is it for disputeing Drunk Commies right to the NG papacy?

I too find the willingness of certain people of the 'liberal' disposition to jump to the defence of Palestenian forces, while at the same time condeming most every action by the Israelis, somewhat confusing.

Personally I think we should just re-establish the Ottoman Empire and leave the whole thing up to them. Make the British pay for it since its their fault the stupid thing broke up ;)

Is it for disputeing Drunk Commies right to the NG papacy?

Who in their right mind would dispute Pope Drunk Commies the First? Fools.

Who in their right mind would dispute Pope Drunk Commies the First? Fools.

Not I, say I. I worship His Highness Pope DCD I.

Who in their right mind would dispute Pope Drunk Commies the First? Fools.

Not I, say I. I worship His Highness Pope DCD I.

You only have a first when you have a second.

Are you plotting to overthrow the Pope and install your own puppet DCD?

You only have a first when you have a second.

Are you plotting to overthrow the Pope and install your own puppet DCD?

Would I do THAT?:cool:






















CURSES, he figured it out!!! Damn his eyes!

Whoops, to late!

Who in their right mind would dispute Pope Drunk Commies the First? Fools.

During the campaigning shortly after DCD won, Ziliam declared him an antipope and named himself pope, since he had been doing quite well in the polls for awhile do to promising pies and porn if memory serves.

I too find the willingness of certain people of the 'liberal' disposition to jump to the defence of Palestenian forces, while at the same time condeming most every action by the Israelis, somewhat confusing.

Personally I think we should just re-establish the Ottoman Empire and leave the whole thing up to them. Make the British pay for it since its their fault the stupid thing broke up ;)

Lol :D

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

And there's no sweeping generalisations of liberals at all in that argument, is there?

Israel does not accidently attack civilians, it is intential. The lastest example being the slaughter of 20 innocent Palestinian women and children getting ready for school. Any attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is nothing more than a justified response to murder and aggression. Israelis feel their attacks will break the will of the Palestinian people, however it has the opposite effect.

I think you're exaggerating.
Amongst the many intentional attacks the Israeli military carry out in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank, there are misfire cases - of course misfire can happen, and this is why a sensible country should avoid military action in an area densely populated by civilians: a military action in such area is bound to kill innocent people.
And blasting Israeli civilians in a marketplace cannot be justified even by the most criminal actions of the Israeli government. Understood, yes; justified, no.
Targeting, more or less deliberately, a civilian or any non-fighting person IS A CRIME. It is a crime if it is done by Israelis, it is a crime if it is done by the Palestinians.
And I think it would help the peace process if the Israeli charged the officer who had his battery target the palestinians' houses ("unintentionally" as they claim) with manslaughter, under the military code of laws. Any military code provides laws to protect the civilians, so the Israeli military courts should apply that laws, just to show that they don't think that the Palestinians are Untermenschen. I hope that they will do so, but I fear that they won't.

Accidental, I think not.

How is it then that a Israeli jet delivered laser guided bomb destroyed a UN outpost who's whereabouts are known to the Israeli's. And now they claim that it was an accident that a shell came out of a tank and massacred innocent Palestinians, was it an accident that dozens of totally civilians high rise apartment buildings in Lebanon were levelled by Israeli bombs, killing their inhabitants? Was it a mistake also in Lebanon that civilian vehicle convoys leaving Beirut during the conflict which were cleared by the IDF to leave were then destroyed, killing dozens of civilians? And these are not isolated incidents either.

And of course, fact remains that anything Israel gets is their own fault for starting the conflict by occupying Arab land which does not belong to them, I think the holocaust has been well and truely milked for everything it had people, it's time to realise the reality of the Zionist regime which is no more dangerous or expansionistic than Nazi Germany.

Accidental, I think not.

How is it then that a Israeli jet delivered laser guided bomb destroyed a UN outpost who's whereabouts are known to the Israeli's. And now they claim that it was an accident that a shell came out of a tank and massacred innocent Palestinians, was it an accident that dozens of totally civilians high rise apartment buildings in Lebanon were levelled by Israeli bombs, killing their inhabitants? Was it a mistake also in Lebanon that civilian vehicle convoys leaving Beirut during the conflict which were cleared by the IDF to leave were then destroyed, killing dozens of civilians? And these are not isolated incidents either.

If these are not accidents, and are intentional and unisolated incidents as you claim, then answer me this simple question.

Why did Israel stop their war against Hezbollah and Lebanon???

If their goal is to kill and displace Arabs and Palestinans, as you seem to claim, why did they stop?

It sure wasn't because of the UN...what military force (short of the U.S.) was going to stop the Israelis from doing whatever they felt like in that conflict? Nothing the U.N. could have scraped together after months of debate, that's for certain.

If their goal was as insidious as you claim, there was NO reason for them to end the conflict...but they DID. How do you reconcile this?

I too find the willingness of certain people of the 'liberal' disposition to jump to the defence of Palestenian forces, while at the same time condeming most every action by the Israelis, somewhat confusing.

Personally I think we should just re-establish the Ottoman Empire and leave the whole thing up to them. Make the British pay for it since its their fault the stupid thing broke up ;)

I consider myself to be of the "liberal disposition", as you so elequently put it, and I condemn the actions taken by both Palestine (including the various fractions and organizations) and Israel. In my opinion, there is no excuse for the constant genocide being conducted by both sides against both sides, and I think that the two should just get along. Naturally, being that I'm also a realist, that isn't likely to happen for many many years to come yet, but I still think we should try.

Alternately, we should carpet nuke the region or, and this is the environmentally sound suggestion for a sollution, just pull out from the region completely and let them do a "last man standing". The last Israeli or Palestinian alive gets the territories. That would be a fair resolution IMO.


DISCLAIMER: Please note that while I condemn both Palestine and Israel for their actions against each other, contrary to popular belief, that does not automatically make me an anti-semetite or anti-arab. I have respect for both cultures and the peoples living there, and for their opinions (even thought I may not agree with them). When I say Palestine or Israel, I mean the governments and policies of those nations, not everything about them.

If these are not accidents, and are intentional and unisolated incidents as you claim, then answer me this simple question.

Why did Israel stop their war against Hezbollah and Lebanon???

If their goal is to kill and displace Arabs and Palestinans, as you seem to claim, why did they stop?

It sure wasn't because of the UN...what military force (short of the U.S.) was going to stop the Israelis from doing whatever they felt like in that conflict? Nothing the U.N. could have scraped together after months of debate, that's for certain.

If their goal was as insidious as you claim, there was NO reason for them to end the conflict...but they DID. How do you reconcile this?
They stopped because of pressure by their puppet masters, the US and the pressure of the greater international community to stop killing civilians. simple really

They stopped because of pressure by their puppet masters, the US and the pressure of the greater international community to stop killing civilians. simple really

So the U.S. was going to invade Israel if they didn't stop? Cause I don't think anyone else had the means to MAKE Israel do anything.

International pressure didn't stop the Nazis, yet the poster I responded to made that comparison.

Again, if you are claiming that Israel's actions are that insidious, then there was no reason for them to stop the war...but they did. Why?

And in reference to the bolded part, why is it that such pressure, when directed towards the Palestinans, never works...yet Israel listens and follows through with the right decision?

How is it then that a Israeli jet delivered laser guided bomb destroyed a UN outpost who's whereabouts are known to the Israeli's.
And now they claim that it was an accident that a shell came out of a tank and massacred innocent Palestinians, was it an accident that dozens of totally civilians high rise apartment buildings in Lebanon were levelled by Israeli bombs, killing their inhabitants? Was it a mistake also in Lebanon that civilian vehicle convoys leaving Beirut during the conflict which were cleared by the IDF to leave were then destroyed, killing dozens of civilians? And these are not isolated incidents either.

Innocent civilians will die when the terrorists hide amoung them. It is not Israel's fault that this is the case, and it cannot be expected not to retaliate

There is NO moral equivlence for a democratic state's millitary attacks against specific terrorist targets vs a terrorist subnational group intentionally killing civilians


And of course, fact remains that anything Israel gets is their own fault for starting the conflict by occupying Arab land which does not belong to them, I think the holocaust has been well and truely milked for everything it had people, it's time to realise the reality of the Zionist regime which is no more dangerous or expansionistic than Nazi Germany.

1. Israel only expanded every time it was attacked.
2. Israel wants to give up the West Bank and Gaza, but only when they would be safe if they did, currently that is not the case
3. Israel offered to give the West Bank and Gaza back in 2000. This offer was more than reasonable

why did they stop? It sure wasn't because of the UN...what military force (short of the U.S.) was going to stop the Israelis from doing whatever they felt like in that conflict?

Maybe because making your allies and friends very angry at you is a very bad move when your neighbours might be your enemy?
Maybe because Israel's economy will collapse if the EU declared an embargo on Israeli goods?
Maybe because they were happy that Italy, France and Germany were willing to keep Hezbollah and Lebanon under control?
Maybe because they knew they couldn't win that war?
Maybe because internal pro-peace front was gaining support?
Maybe because it stirred more trouble with the Palestinians, forcing the IDF to fight on two fronts?

And a France/Germany/Italy joint military force is perfectly able to blast away the Israeli Defence Force in an open war. Not that these countries are likely to attack Israel, but, since they're all major economical powers, they're all major NATO armies, their total population is more than 150 millions... yea, I think that the IDF woulnd't beat them.

Maybe because making your allies and friends very angry at you is a very bad move when your neighbours might be your enemy?

Israels neighbors are either still their enemy, or have been beaten so many times by Israel that they know better than to try and start shit.

Maybe because Israel's economy will collapse if the EU declared an embargo on Israeli goods?

Who cares about the economy when the goal is to kill Arabs and Palestinians?

Maybe because they were happy that Italy, France and Germany were willing to keep Hezbollah and Lebanon under control?

I thought the goal was to kill them?

Maybe because they knew they couldn't win that war?

If the goal is to elminate these peoples, as some pro-Palestinians claim, then there was nothing stopping them from winning that war. Just kill 'em all, civilian or otherwise.

Maybe because internal pro-peace front was gaining support?

Pro-peace front? Kinda shoots holes in the idea that the Israelis want nothing more than to murder Palestinians.

Maybe because it stirred more trouble with the Palestinians, forcing the IDF to fight on two fronts?

Again, if the goal is to kill them all, then this really shouldn't be an issue.

And a France/Germany/Italy joint military force is perfectly able to blast away the Israeli Defence Force in an open war. Not that these countries are likely to attack Israel, but, since they're all major economical powers, they're all major NATO armies, their total population is more than 150 millions... yea, I think that the IDF woulnd't beat them.

Are you saying the populations of these nations would be willing to fight a long and bloody war to stop Israel? I don't see it. Nor do I see the necessary naval and airlift infastructure to ensure an adequate amount of ground troops, nor the ability to establish air-superiority.

Europe would win...but they would be sorry they ever bothered.

NOTE: I'm not saying the Israelis are without blame or guilt in the situation, but the idea that their goal is the systematic elmination of the Palestinian people, often compared to the Nazi's attempt to do so to the Jews, and espoused by the extreme wing of Palestinan supporters, is so full of contradictions and simple inaccuracy that it borders on the absurd.

I like the hypocrisy of pro-Palestinians and liberals.

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

I just LOVE the irony of the title. Does not the exact same apply to the pro-isrealis and conservatives?

I just LOVE the irony of the title. Does not the exact same apply to the pro-isrealis and conservatives?

Except that pro-Palestianians and liberals are in the majority.

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

I think you should consider another set of comparisons.

Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = Horrible act of terrorism (which it is).

BUT...

Israeli counterattack against civilians in bomber's village = no big deal, that's war, Palestinians deserved it, etc.

I'm not advocating either your correlations or mine...but when it comes to Israel and Palestine, there is no "right" anymore.

Israels neighbors are either still their enemy, or have been beaten so many times by Israel that they know better than to try and start shit.

But I don't think the Israeli military would like fighting a war without being able to buy weapons from EU and USA. And you never can tell: maybe the neighbours' government just want to give a cookie to the more radical groups, so they keep quiet on the internal front. Arab politics can be puzzling even to an Italian, you know.


Who cares about the economy when the goal is to kill Arabs and Palestinians?


Again. Economy is (almost) everything. No money no oil to fuel your tank. No money no cannon rounds. No money no bombs. No money no aircrafts. No money no steel. No money no food. Heroic though they can be, I can't picture any army fighting and winning in that situation. You're allowed to call me a materialist, of course, because that's what I am.


I thought the goal was to kill them?


Israel's goal, maybe. Not the EU's. The EU doesn't want to fuel instability to the Mediterranean. It is against european interests - and, sometimes, even against european ethics - well, at least internal politics.
The UNIFIL is a result of a compromis between EU, USA, Lebanon and Israel. No one gets exactly what he wanted, of course.


Are you saying the populations of these nations would be willing to fight a long and bloody war to stop Israel? I don't see it. Nor do I see the necessary naval and airlift infastructure to ensure an adequate amount of ground troops, nor the ability to establish air-superiority.


No, I'm not saying that any EU country would be willing to fight Israel and I already stated that in the post you're quoting - although you cannot rule out UN-supported EU military presence in the Gaza strip and the West Bank in the future, and in that case the Israeli military would be very wise not to try shooting at the EU troops.
Anyway, you're underestimating the sheer military power of such things like the Italian Navy, the French Air Force and the German Army... take a look at www.fas.org, you'll get some idea of the military power the EU has.


Europe would win...but they would be sorry they ever bothered.

So, Israel, please be sensible and give the Palestinians the land for them to make an own state. That's what the EU is asking. We europeans have seen too many wars throughout the 3 last millennia to be fond of fighting them. Hopefully, we'll be happy, Israel will be safe, the Palestinians will be peaceful.


NOTE: I'm not saying the Israelis are without blame or guilt in the situation,
Got it. Promise I won't call you a "nazi in kippah" - not that I ever dreamt of calling anyone that.:D

Any attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is nothing more than a justified response

Wow.
It only took 2 posts in and you're actually proving the OP correct.

Wow.
It only took 2 posts in and you're actually proving the OP correct.

He supposedly recently converted to Islam and is now seemingly going out of his way to prove every Muslim stereotype correct.

Let's cut funding to both countries and let them fight it out. I'm fairly certain Israel would win, but then at least there would be less bitching about us helping them.

I like burritos and peanut butter cups. :)

Me too, and how are the Twins doing?

I just LOVE the irony of the title. Does not the exact same apply to the pro-isrealis and conservatives?

It does, but it isn't as absolute.
In the recent Israel/Hezz conflict, conservatives and pro-Israelis came out in defense of Israel quickly but as the conflict pushed deeper into Lebanon and the civilian casualties started to rise, the support softened and there were calls for Israel to lgihten up, and they did.

Except that pro-Palestianians and liberals are in the majority.

Where?

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

You're exactly right, that's NOT fair.

Israel does NOT deliberately attack civilians; it attacks military targets and occasionally misses.

Palestinians, however, DO deliberately attack civilians, because in their eyes, there IS no difference between civilians and military personnel when it comes to Israel. They see the two parts as one.

Israel does not accidently attack civilians, it is intential. The lastest example being the slaughter of 20 innocent Palestinian women and children getting ready for school. Any attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is nothing more than a justified response to murder and aggression. Israelis feel their attacks will break the will of the Palestinian people, however it has the opposite effect.

ANY attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is justified? How can you even THINK of making such a broad generalizing stereotype? That is not even reasonable, let alone true. The Palestinians are NOT automatically these poor, oppressed victims you make them out to be; their attacks on Israel are NOT automatically justified; the PALESTINIANS are the ones guilty of murder and aggression, NOT Israel. Israel is only defending itself from them, and evidently you don't think they should have the right to do so.

Stop being so anti-Semitic and be reasonable; the Jews wandered all over the earth for 1878 years, being oppressed, abused, violated, discriminated against, and slaughtered wherever they went; give them a break and let them have their land back.

Innocent civilians will die when the terrorists hide amoung them. It is not Israel's fault that this is the case, and it cannot be expected not to retaliate

There is NO moral equivlence for a democratic state's millitary attacks against specific terrorist targets vs a terrorist subnational group intentionally killing civilians

1. Israel only expanded every time it was attacked.
2. Israel wants to give up the West Bank and Gaza, but only when they would be safe if they did, currently that is not the case
3. Israel offered to give the West Bank and Gaza back in 2000. This offer was more than reasonable

You are right; Israel OFFERED to give up the West Bank and Gaza, but the Palestinians REJECTED it because it would not have resulted in the death of all Jews. Palestinians do NOT want peace with Israel; the only thing they want is to spill Jewish blood.

Who cares about the economy when the goal is to kill Arabs and Palestinians?

I thought the goal was to kill them?

No, Israel's goal isn't to kill Arabs and Palestinians; Israel's goal is merely to KEEP FROM BEING KILLED BY Arabs and Palestinians, but evidently Soviestan (see above quote) thinks that self-defense is a war crime and an atrocity when practiced by Israel.

I'm not advocating either your correlations or mine...but when it comes to Israel and Palestine, there is no "right" anymore.
I agree with you on this.



Israel does NOT deliberately attack civilians; it attacks military targets and occasionally misses.

Palestinians, however, DO deliberately attack civilians, because in their eyes, there IS no difference between civilians and military personnel when it comes to Israel. They see the two parts as one.

And then you say...

ANY attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is justified? How can you even THINK of making such a broad generalizing stereotype? That is not even reasonable, let alone true

Oooh, the awkward irony... :)

As a liberal, I find I am getting used to people making gross generalisations about me and what I think.

Having said that, I think both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are both caught in the crossfire of their respective militaries or militias. Not only are both sides deliberately targetting civilians, but I think both sides have factions within them that wish to perpetuate the fighting.

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

Israelis have it easy compared to Palestinians. Firstly there are more people who consider themselves Palestinian in the world than there are people who consider themselves Israeli (just because you are Jewish doesn't mean you are Israeli) There are 8 million Palestinians half who are displaced across the world while there are 5 million Israelis of which 74% occupy 14% of the land and yet they want more? Palestinian water supply is compromised for Israeli water supply. Palestinians are subject to checkpoints in their own land while Israelis are not subject to any of these. Palestinians are sieged in a tiny area while Israelis are allowed to settle all over Israel. Palestinians aren't allowed to enter Israel. This is apartheid and the killings that go on in the West Bank and Gaza are that of ethnic cleansing which is illegal under international military law. Israelis have it easy compared to Palestinians, their actions also provoke Palestinian attacks. If Israel entered into negotiations for giving them a reasonable amount of their land and allowing Palestinians to return to Palestine in their entirety instead of locking them out in Jordan and in the rest of the world, maybe there wouldn't be such violence from Hamas. 50 years ago there wasn't even 1% of a Jewish population living in Palestine. But due to Zionist organisations this has come into being even when Jewish scripture forbids the creation of any Jewish state in Palestine until the Messiah has come. But in humanitarian terms its just plain wrong to remove an indigenous race from their land. This is why Israel is provocative and this is why Palestinians are rebelling and fighting against the occupation of Palestine. I don't endorse this violence but when the Palestinian people don't have a voice they have little choice apart from picking up arms and fighting their oppressors.

Edit: I believe a billateral Palestinian state is the only solution to fixing this mess

Where?

Here on NS, and in Western society in general.

The thing is, Israel has been entirely reasonable. They agreed to the 1947 UN Partition Plan, for example, and have offered to give land to Palestine multiple times. The Palestinians, however, decided that the only acceptable agreement was they get it all and that the Jews leave.
And Israel doesn't mean to hit civilians. They aren't without blame, however. They should be more responsible, and avoid military action where civilian deaths are inevitable, if they can. However, the Palestinians are much more to blame, in my opinion. They intentionally target civilians. That's just despicable.

I really feel for all the civilians caught up in this whole mess. They'd probably coexist just fine if all these damn militias and governments would let them.

Here on NS, and in Western society in general.

So you claim that the pro-Palestinians are in the majority in western society now?

So you claim that the pro-Palestinians are in the majority in western society now?

Maybe not in the US, but it the rest of the West, yes.

You are right; Israel OFFERED to give up the West Bank and Gaza, but the Palestinians REJECTED it because it would not have resulted in the death of all Jews. Palestinians do NOT want peace with Israel; the only thing they want is to spill Jewish blood.


A stereotype as ridiclous as many of the ones aimed at Jews.

The West Bank was not offered back in its entirety and there was no workable solution offered on Arab East Jerusalem. The Israelis were the ones who left negotiations in 2003.

The thing is, Israel has been entirely reasonable. They agreed to the 1947 UN Partition Plan, for example, and have offered to give land to Palestine multiple times. The Palestinians, however, decided that the only acceptable agreement was they get it all and that the Jews leave.
And Israel doesn't mean to hit civilians. They aren't without blame, however. They should be more responsible, and avoid military action where civilian deaths are inevitable, if they can. However, the Palestinians are much more to blame, in my opinion. They intentionally target civilians. That's just despicable.

I really feel for all the civilians caught up in this whole mess. They'd probably coexist just fine if all these damn militias and governments would let them.

Of course they would accept the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Why wouldn't they after all the effort they spent stealing Palestinian land and settling there illegally and by terrorising the Arabs and the British forces in Palestine with the Irgun, Haganah and other notable Zionist extremist groups. Settling and mass immigrating into a country does not make it yours. That would be like the Irish mass immigrating into Britain and claiming sovereignty over it.
Israelis don't intentionally target civilians? Look at the death toll this week alone! 73 dead, 300 wounded by Israeli soldiers in Gaza this week. Who knows about any deaths or injuries by the IDF in the West Bank. Israel actually more than likely do intend to kill civilians in air raids over whole towns in Gaza and in the West Bank. As I said they want to control all the land from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan, the only way they can do that is if they get rid of the Palestinians. David Ben Gurion said himself that to establish a successful Israeli state they have to destroy the Palestinians, and this seems like what they are doing at the minute bit by bit. But it won't work, the people will rise up and say that enough is enough, this is the reason why Hamas and other militant groups are raising in popularity. Due to their conditions that are imposed by them by the IDF forces occupying their land. Palestinians have been there all their lives, Israelis are second or third generation immigrants, and as I said before there are less people in the world who consider themselves Israeli than Palestinian today. (more than 8,000,000 in comparison to just over 5,000,000 respectively. The Israelis don't and have never given them land. In 1947 they took land from Palestine 55% of the whole country if memory serves me correctly. Now they have even less than that and with the wall and the drawn up plans they are thinking of reducing this even further. If this isn't landgrabbing then I don't know what is. They won't co-exist in an Israeli state, ever in my opinion. The Palestinians have to be given a fair amount of land, or to be part of a billateral Palestinian state. It is the only way I see it.

Of course they would accept the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Why wouldn't they after all the effort they spent stealing Palestinian land and settling there illegally and by terrorising the Arabs and the British forces in Palestine with the Irgun, Haganah and other notable Zionist extremist groups. Settling and mass immigrating into a country does not make it yours. That would be like the Irish mass immigrating into Britain and claiming sovereignty over it.
Israelis don't intentionally target civilians? Look at the death toll this week alone! 73 dead, 300 wounded by Israeli soldiers in Gaza this week. Who knows about any deaths or injuries by the IDF in the West Bank. Israel actually more than likely do intend to kill civilians in air raids over whole towns in Gaza and in the West Bank. As I said they want to control all the land from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan, the only way they can do that is if they get rid of the Palestinians. David Ben Gurion said himself that to establish a successful Israeli state they have to destroy the Palestinians, and this seems like what they are doing at the minute bit by bit. But it won't work, the people will rise up and say that enough is enough, this is the reason why Hamas and other militant groups are raising in popularity. Due to their conditions that are imposed by them by the IDF forces occupying their land. Palestinians have been there all their lives, Israelis are second or third generation immigrants, and as I said before there are more people in the world who consider themselves Israeli than Palestinian today. (more than 8,000,000 in comparison to just over 5,000,000 respectively. The Israelis don't and have never given them land. In 1947 they took land from Palestine 55% of the whole country if memory serves me correctly. Now they have even less than that and with the wall and the drawn up plans they are thinking of reducing this even further. If this isn't landgrabbing then I don't know what is. They won't co-exist in an Israeli state, ever in my opinion. The Palestinians have to be given a fair amount of land, or to be part of a billateral Palestinian state. It is the only way I see it.

All well said, a chara, and correct. Do not neglect your friend, the paragraph, however.

All well said, a chara, and correct. Do not neglect your friend, the paragraph, however.

did go a bit mad there sorry I was concentrating on what I was writing rather than the structure.

You're exactly right, that's NOT fair.

Israel does NOT deliberately attack civilians; it attacks military targets and occasionally misses.

Palestinians, however, DO deliberately attack civilians, because in their eyes, there IS no difference between civilians and military personnel when it comes to Israel. They see the two parts as one.
Israel fires into civilian areas, it has to expect to kill civilians. What you get into is a debate about collateral damage. Also that incident with the UN outpost Andreas Prime mentioned.


ANY attack by Palestinians on the Israelis is justified? How can you even THINK of making such a broad generalizing stereotype? That is not even reasonable, let alone true. The Palestinians are NOT automatically these poor, oppressed victims you make them out to be; their attacks on Israel are NOT automatically justified; the PALESTINIANS are the ones guilty of murder and aggression, NOT Israel. Israel is only defending itself from them, and evidently you don't think they should have the right to do so.

Palestinians=/= Terrorrists. You're making as big a generalisation as any.


Stop being so anti-Semitic and be reasonable;
:rolleyes: Yes, criticising Israel is anti-semitic



the Jews wandered all over the earth for 1878 years, being oppressed, abused, violated, discriminated against, and slaughtered wherever they went; give them a break and let them have their land back.

Their Land? The land but hasn't been theirs for 1878 years (and that they took from the Canaanites in the first place). What claim have they got for it over the people that have lived there in those intevening years? Or are we giving America back to the Native Americans and Australia back to the Aborigines. It is fundamentally wrong to try and specify somewhere as a land belonging to a particular race or religion. Israel shouldn't have been created.


You are right; Israel OFFERED to give up the West Bank and Gaza, but the Palestinians REJECTED it because it would not have resulted in the death of all Jews. Palestinians do NOT want peace with Israel; the only thing they want is to spill Jewish blood.

Rubbish. Israel offered to give up parts of the Occupied territories, but they did then and now want to retain certain settlements they've built on them. Palestinians held out for more and the negotiations broke down.


No, Israel's goal isn't to kill Arabs and Palestinians; Israel's goal is merely to KEEP FROM BEING KILLED BY Arabs and Palestinians, but evidently Soviestan (see above quote) thinks that self-defense is a war crime and an atrocity when practiced by Israel.
While I don't think Israel wants to kill Arabs and Palestinians, It is a racial and racist state that discriminates against Arabs. It is also partially due to Israel's actions towards the Palestinians that have kept a large number of them in poverty and led to the election of Hamas (since they are the ones giving aid to people on the ground).

Er, just wondering.


I definitely remember hearing somewhere that the nation of Palestine, and even the concept of it didn't exist until the Israelis/Jews moved in.


Am I entirely wrong, or...what? Why are we worried about it? If we fund either side, we are just advancing the cause of death and destruction. If we really want to do something, just invade, like we did with Iraq.


<------- was opposed to Iraq.
<------- Is generally Moderate.

Please so not generalize my views after this post. Please.

No, really.


(Hooray for first post on the boards!)

Stop being so anti-Semitic and be reasonable; the Jews wandered all over the earth for 1878 years, being oppressed, abused, violated, discriminated against, and slaughtered wherever they went; give them a break and let them have their land back.


What is your definition of Anti-Semitic?

Anti-Semitism is the defamation and racist attacking of the Jewish faith. Criticism of the Israeli state for what it has done wrong is not being Anti-Semitic, unless Anti-Semitism is the criticism of all the wrong doing of the Israeli state since the early Zionist movements in 1882?

And there's no sweeping generalisations of liberals at all in that argument, is there?

Shhh! You fool! Don't let the OP know that! We're having too much fun laughing behind his ba-- oh.

Shhh! You fool! Don't let the OP know that! We're having too much fun laughing behind his ba-- oh.

Quick! Delete!

You really have to think about this, Potato Factory...

Israel claims to be a supreme moral authority in the region. Palestine, and its fighters there, does not.

This is like those bloody foolish "omg terrorists in Iraq" debates which is basically the same - the US claims that everything it does is right, and that civilians are merely 'collateral damage'.

The -whatever semantic term you want to use for those fighting off the occupying coalition forces- might indeed blow up market stalls and such, killing a lot of civilians - but they don't claim to be in the right about this at every turn...

Er, just wondering.


I definitely remember hearing somewhere that the nation of Palestine, and even the concept of it didn't exist until the Israelis/Jews moved in.


Am I entirely wrong, or...what? Why are we worried about it? If we fund either side, we are just advancing the cause of death and destruction. If we really want to do something, just invade, like we did with Iraq.


<------- was opposed to Iraq.
<------- Is generally Moderate.

Please so not generalize my views after this post. Please.

No, really.


(Hooray for first post on the boards!)

Palestinians aren't allowed to trade their goods internationally and as such they are doing terribly economically. Funds that go to nations are not always used to kill and to fund terrorism. Trocaire (an Irish NGO) operate in the West Bank and Gaza to help people to farm to sustain their families and those who are around them.

In relation to the Palestinian state point. There was a majority of Arabs living there during the Jewish Diaspora, and it was under Arab rule for much of this time. This had led to the concept that they should be allowed to govern their own nation and their own people as it has been done for so long. Which I think is only fair as theres a larger population of Palestinians than there are Israelis in the world and that 74% of Israelis occupy only 14% of the land that they have.

Invading a country is never the answer. The state of Iraq is now worse than it was under Saddam Hussein with UN reports stating that torture and terror attacks have rose since the US invaded in 2003. Government officials in Iraq now torture people and corruption is widespread. A civil war is also raging in the country between Shia Muslims, Kurds and Sunnis. This was quelled by Saddam's use of force in the past but now they are fighting against themselves. It will take years for any form of civilized government to take place in that country and Afghanistan for that matter.

What is your definition of Anti-Semitic?

Anti-Semitism is the defamation and racist attacking of the Jewish faith. Criticism of the Israeli state for what it has done wrong is not being Anti-Semitic, unless Anti-Semitism is the criticism of all the wrong doing of the Israeli state since the early Zionist movements in 1882?

That's anti-zionism. Anti-semitism is racist attacking of semitic people - which includes both Arabs and Jews.

Er, just wondering.


I definitely remember hearing somewhere that the nation of Palestine, and even the concept of it didn't exist until the Israelis/Jews moved in.
(Hooray for first post on the boards!)

Palestinians are a nation.

However they are without a state. There is a BIG difference between 'nation' and 'state'.

The Achenese have been a nation for decades, yet only received their 'state' last year.

That Amer-Indians were nations, but did not have a state. Do you understand now?

(And welcome to NS general- thank you for not using the gun smiley :) )

Palestinians are a nation.

However they are without a state. There is a BIG difference between 'nation' and 'state'.

The Achenese have been a nation for decades, yet only received their 'state' last year.

That Amer-Indians were nations, but did not have a state. Do you understand now?

(And welcome to NS general- thank you for not using the gun smiley :) )

also the nation of Kurdistan, which is intended to lie between Turkey and Iraq isn't created yet.

also the nation of Kurdistan, which is intended to lie between Turkey and Iraq isn't created yet.

No, that would be the state of Kurdistan and the nation of the Kurds.

No, this is what you believe. The Palestinians fire rockets into Israel unjustifiedly, the Israelis counter against the terrorists, sometimes they miss.

Just a comparison, which kills more people? A plastic rocket, or a air bombardment of a whole town? Yes they do fire rockets into Israel in retaliation for the occupation and the way Israel treat them and the way in which Israel deal with their fighting so disproportionately just like the way you dealt with Hizbullah in Lebanon.

Er, just wondering.


I definitely remember hearing somewhere that the nation of Palestine, and even the concept of it didn't exist until the Israelis/Jews moved in.


Am I entirely wrong, or...what?
The Arabs of Palestine at the time of the founding of Israel most probably saw themselves as part of a Pan-Arab state (which was the desired outcome of the Arab Revolt) rather than as Palestinians mainly because 'Palestine' was only really just a few arbitrary lines drawn up by Britain and France after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. (In other words, we helped them defeat our enemy empire and then add them to ours...) However, as the probability of a pan-Arab state dwindled (with the exception of the failed UAR) I think Palestinian pan-Arab nationalism would have been replaced by Palestinian Arab nationalism, something that happens with pretty much every occupation.

But, I'm not an Arab history expert, so Wiki is your friend.

Why are we worried about it?
It gives Islamists, who have taken the place of 'Arabists' a huge amount of support. Which is not a good thing. On a side note, the Arab-Israeli conflict has its casualties.:rolleyes:


If we fund either side, we are just advancing the cause of death and destruction. If we really want to do something, just invade, like we did with Iraq.

My solution wouldn't be invasion. As the fable goes, persuasion is stronger than force.

<------- was opposed to Iraq.
<------- Is generally Moderate.

Please so not generalize my views after this post. Please.

No, really.
Ok.

(Hooray for first post on the boards!)
Welcome, w00t!

No, that would be the state of Kurdistan and the nation of the Kurds.
Correct. And it'll be a hive of scum and villany (most likely)... now where did I hear that before?

Correct. And it'll be a hive of scum and villany (most likely)... now where did I hear that before?

In one of the better three :D

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

Go ahead, condemn liberals. It doesn't matter to me, becaue socialists reserve the right to condemn anyone who uses violence in a bad way.

Maybe not in the US, but it the rest of the West, yes.

Which countries then? Feel free to back up your assertions.

Which countries then? Feel free to back up your assertions.

Virtually all of Europe.

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

i like your blind ignorance. gives me something to laugh at when my self esteem reaches an all time low.

*Two bruised and battered warriors are fighting in a field, it looks as if they've been fighting for years, in an unending conflict with no victory in sight. Suddenly they both trip and fall at the same time, and they drop their weapons and clutch their knees in pain. They sit there, waiting for the pain to wear off, when one of the warrirors asks the other a question*

"Hey, we've been going at this for ages, and I really must know, why are you fighting me, why do you keep swinging at me?"

*The other warrior looks at him funny, then responds*

"It's because you swing at me, I'll stop swinging when you stop swinging and leave this field."

*The first warrior responds*

"But I'm only swinging at you because you swing at me, and I'd do the same for you if you were to do that."

*The other warrior responds*

"I would do that, but you threw the first punch, I know that must be the case, otherwise, why would I fight you?"

*The first warrior retorts*

"I believe, my enemy, that it was you who threw the first punch, and I only responded to that. I would never have thrown the first punch"

*The second warriror blinks his eyes for a moment*

"Honestly, I don't actually remember who threw the first punch, who drew the first sword, it was so long ago that it is just a haze in my memory...we should really look at ending this, I mean, what has it brought us?"

*The first warrior responds*

"It has brought us nothing but misery and suffering I think the time has come for us to draw a compromise, that we migh share this field and both live here as neighb...."

*At this point, the first warrior sees an opening and lunges for his sword, hoping to catch his opponent off guard, but his opponent also sees this as his moment of opportunity and lunges too, they hobble back up and start whacking away at each other once again, in a seemingly endless manner.*






That's what I think.

That's what I think.

You think well.

I like burritos and peanut butter cups. :)

Same. Not together, though.

Virtually all of Europe.
Just a random thought, but maybe its just because Zionism is wrong??
of course the US are going to support you, as the Jews are a powerful economic force in the US but not as much so in Europe. Christian Zionism is also big among a lot of Evangelical Christians in the USA also. A Palestinian state is what should had been put there in the first place. Partition is the worst possible solution to political problems, if you look at Korea, Ireland, and Palestine. It should had started as a billateral state as was suggested by Arthur Ruppin in 1929 (he was a Jew btw). As I said before the British were in a rush to give it up because of the violence that was happening between Haganah,and the Irgun against British forces in the area, so they did it sloppily as they did with Ireland in 1920.

Just a random thought, but maybe its just because Zionism is wrong??
of course the US are going to support you, as the Jews are a powerful economic force in the US but not as much so in Europe. Christian Zionism is also big among a lot of Evangelical Christians in the USA also. A Palestinian state is what should had been put there in the first place. Partition is the worst possible solution to political problems, if you look at Korea, Ireland, and Palestine. It should had started as a billateral state as was suggested by Arthur Ruppin in 1929 (he was a Jew btw). As I said before the British were in a rush to give it up because of the violence that was happening between Haganah,and the Irgun against British forces in the area, so they did it sloppily as they did with Ireland in 1920.

You assume that I'm an Israeli Jew.

Except that pro-Palestianians and liberals are in the majority.

are they??? i assume your refering to the world at large...

might this not say something about how people view the conflict?

are they??? i assume your refering to the world at large...

might this not say something about how people view the conflict?How people view the conflict is very easily described: Jews suck big time, Israelis suck even more. Whatever Palestinians - or Arabs in general - will do, the other side will be worse. Because of their overall attitude and them being the symbol of one of the world's gravest injustices.
.

Virtually all of Europe.
Yeeeees... So you claim, yet you can't point out individual countries and you don't back it up? You're not particularly convincing you know.

That's what I think.

:)

Seems like a good description...

Don't lump me together with apologists.

Why did Israel stop their war against Hezbollah and Lebanon???


Coz the IDF was getting its arse kicked.

they agreed to leave if a sufficent UN force went into the area. (most of which were Europeans may I add)

You assume that I'm an Israeli Jew.

you as in Zionists, those who support an Israeli state at the expense of Palestinian lives and freedoms. Personally I think that Zionists have lost their moral compass, how can you butcher Palestinians and lock them out of their own land (as of June 2006 whereby foreign nationals and Palestinians bearing foreign passports can't enter Gaza or the West Bank)

Coz the IDF was getting its arse kicked.
Yep, and people in Europe (usually an ally of Israel, whatever FOX tells you) were getting gradually more and more pissed off with the civilian deaths which Israel was causing, whereas about 85% (IIRC) of casualties on the Israeli side were of military personel.

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.
Why do you like hypocrisy?

Israelis accidentally attack civilians = world condemnation, Israel is evil, etc.
Palestinians deliberately attack civilians = no big deal, that's war, Israelis deserved it, etc.

Um no. You are indulging in a common form of conservative ignorance propogation.

Liberal does not mean that our opinion is defined as the opposite of yours. The fact that you believe in the opposite hypocrisy does not serve to establish our position. Conservatives think that it's ok for Israel to kill civilians and not ok for the Palestinians to do so. They also believe that the Palestinians have been offered reasonable terms for a settlement.

Liberals know that killing civilians is wrong on their side, but it will continue until Israel, as the only real power in this struggle, is willing to make a reasonable offer.

you as in Zionists, those who support an Israeli state at the expense of Palestinian lives and freedoms. Personally I think that Zionists have lost their moral compass, how can you butcher Palestinians and lock them out of their own land (as of June 2006 whereby foreign nationals and Palestinians bearing foreign passports can't enter Gaza or the West Bank)

I am no friend of Israel. But I support them in the fight against the greater enemy.

i'm deffinitly not a liberal and i support palestine.
the difference between the palestinians bombing and the israelis bombing is; when palestinians do it, they are not representing a country, they are doing it individually. israelis do it via an organised country that claims to be democratic, and should try to take the moral high road.
also the israelis have killed so much more than the pals.
also israel started the war.

I am no friend of Israel. But I support them in the fight against the greater enemy.
Greater enemy? So people who strive from freedom of persecution. Didn't the Jews struggle for their independence from the Nazis and from the British Empire (by letter bombs and terrorising Arabs and British). Now the Palestinians are struggling for their independence from the Israelis. The Nazis killed 6 million (half the Jewish population) in the Holocaust, The Israelis have kicked half of the worlds Palestinians out from their own land. Israelis acted just like the greater enemy (Palestinians) in times past, since we are talking about hypocrisy surely that is it...

The 'Liberals' (in quotes becasue, as a liberal, I find their monopolization of the label maddening) that I find most irritating are ones in groups totally unconnected to Middle Eastern politics, yet still decide to tack very simplistic and one-sided policies regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict onto their messages.

The result is ridiculous : local labour unions, Adbusters, environmental groups, and more otherwise irrlevant groups start showing showing up to rallies, wearing palestinian flags, and listening to the most outlandish rhetoric that no-one who knows a shred of background about the whole thing would swallow whole, as they do. Often these are the same crouds of young, naive, white-as-driven-snow suburbanites who feel they need a cause, and think they accomplish something by draping a black and while Kafia around their shoulders and calling Israel a terrorist country. It's pathetic.

groups totally unconnected to Middle Eastern politics, yet still decide to tack very simplistic and one-sided policies regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict onto their messages.


You may think they are simple, and you may think they are one-sided but they care unlike the rest of the world what is happening in Palestine. The way they are treated by the Israeli people forced into checkpoints, forced to live with bad water due to Israeli settlements getting it, forced into poverty because of the fact that Israelis stop them from trading internationally.

and listening to the most outlandish rhetoric that no-one who knows a shred of background about the whole thing would swallow whole, as they do. Often these are the same crouds of young, naive, white-as-driven-snow suburbanites who feel they need a cause, and think they accomplish something by draping a black and while Kafia around their shoulders and calling Israel a terrorist country. It's pathetic.
hah just love this bit, people who are white can't have a say on the Palestinian conflict. Sure i'm 100% white and I know perfectly well the background of the conflict and have read several books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from both Arab and Zionist perspectives. And for the record i'm young too :) only 18 next April... I also think you'll find that the reason that they are calling it a "terrorist state" was as I said before was because groups like the Haganah and the Irgun terrorised the British troops to draw up a partition plan when they were originally thinking of a bi-latteral Palestinian state. (discussions on partition started around 1937 as attacks with Arabs intensified)

Also on the same topic, why are these people called liberals in this circumstance. I would see people like that as left-leaning. People that support the Palestinian cause aren't neccessarily liberals.

Also on the same topic, why are these people called liberals in this circumstance. I would see people like that as left-leaning. People that support the Palestinian cause aren't neccessarily liberals.
Because sweeping generalisations are easy, and because for some people liberal=left leaning.