NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6126206.stm

Looks like the A-380's delays are going to cost Airbust a ton here.

Meanwhile, Boeing's 787 Dreamliner is going to be raking in orders before a prototype is constructed. It should be easy to see why with very efficient engines, a roomy cabin, and of course a fairly quiet aircraft.

It is also good to see FedEx make 777 orders. I have been wondering for a while why that aircraft hasn't been selling as well as it should be.

-------------------------------------------

The Airbust A-380 does have one improvement over the older Airbust aircraft. At least the frong wheels on this aircraft are parallel with the rear wheels and not perpendicular to them as they appear to be on A-320s.

All Hail Boeing!

I believe I said this was what we should expect when some people on these forums were trumpeting the ultimate defeat of the American aircraft manufacturing industries...

I believe I said this was what we should expect when some people on these forums were trumpeting the ultimate defeat of the American aircraft manufacturing industries...

I think Airbust passing them earlier in the decade is just what Boeing needed. That kick in the groin led to the 787.

Airbust? Who's that? I'm quite confused, here.

Airbust? Who's that? I'm quite confused, here.
Flying boobies. :D

Do you have stock in Boeing or something?

Boeing really hadn't faced much competition since the 80s when McDonnel Douglas started having issues. Safety problems on DC-10s (which were actually more the fault of the airlines than the manufacturers) killed MD's reputation. Boeing of course bought them in the 90s.

I think Airbust passing them earlier in the decade is just what Boeing needed. That kick in the groin led to the 787.

Yep, although Airbus has been hurting in orders for smaller planes lately as well, if I recall correctly.

But yeah, Boeing took that kick in the pants as a sign to get it's ass in gear, and promptly designed what is probably the best passenger liner available.

Do you have stock in Boeing or something?

I actually have stock in Jet Blue, which flies Airbust and Embraer aircraft. Airbust pissed me off because their fucking tires locking at 90 degrees destroyed Jet Blue's perfect record.

Airbust? Who's that? I'm quite confused, here.

Airbus. Boeings only competitor in the large airframe market. The A380 is currently 2 years behind schedule and 5.5 tonnes over its design weight. The comapnies that were waiting for delivery of the new plane are getting tired of waiting for it. Understandable as the delays are costing them a fortune.

I actually have stock in Jet Blue, which flies Airbust and Embraer aircraft. Airbust pissed me off because their fucking tires locking at 90 degrees destroyed Jet Blue's perfect record.

I still don't understand why they don't put steerable nose gear on their birds. It's not like it would alter weight or performance any.

I actually have stock in Jet Blue, which flies Airbust and Embraer aircraft. Airbust pissed me off because their fucking tires locking at 90 degrees destroyed Jet Blue's perfect record.
Ok then.

Go Boeing, and you know it's sad that the world's largest aircraft is having this much trouble.

I've seen some of the mockup designs for the Dreamliner interior, damned nice looking cabin.

I've also seen some for the A380. The bloody thing is a flying palace. At least the design models and mockups were that way.

I'll be curious to see what happens if UAEA pulls out as well, I understand that will leave Airbus with zero backing for the new bird.

This is a classic example of supply chain failure. They're gonna be writing textbooks with Airbus' problems in them in a few years.

Anyways, the A380 isn't really in trouble. It's still an excellent aircraft, and the orders are (on the whole) not being ditched. I hear Emirates* has actually upped its order by another few planes.

The design is very good. It's just that the production facilities were not working together as they should have been.

Oh, and before anyone starts looking at this as a US vs EU thing (IDF, I'm looking at you here)...Boeing's best aircraft, the 777, was a world-wide project, involving companies from pretty much every continent. Look at where the bits of that jet come from - in fact, my textbook now has the design and success of the 777 as an example of how to operate a truly global project.

*EDIT: It was Qantas, not Emirates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A380#Orders

I've seen some of the mockup designs for the Dreamliner interior, damned nice looking cabin.

I've also seen some for the A380. The bloody thing is a flying palace. At least the design models and mockups were that way.

I'll be curious to see what happens if UAEA pulls out as well, I understand that will leave Airbus with zero backing for the new bird.

BAE has sold their 20% share of Airbust. In all honesty, I think that is a tell tale sign of where Airbust is going.

As for UAEA, they can't cancel all of their orders. The BBC article stated that they might have to wait a while to get the 747-800 because Boeing's plants are working at maximum capacity to fill the influx of orders they have seen. At most, they will dump half of their A-380 order. They might actually get those sooner than 747s due to the back-up in Seattle.

I'll be curious to see what happens if UAEA pulls out as well, I understand that will leave Airbus with zero backing for the new bird.

I think Emirates will have more patience than FedEx, but there's a limit to that as well. As the current order backup in production for Boeing might make the wait longer than the wait a bit longer for 747s.

I think it's time for Boeing to look at some capital expansion.

Oh, and before anyone starts looking at this as a US vs EU thing (IDF, I'm looking at you here)...Boeing's best aircraft, the 777, was a world-wide project, involving companies from pretty much every continent. Look at where the bits of that jet come from - in fact, my textbook now has the design and success of the 777 as an example of how to operate a truly global project.

That is so true, and really the plant in Seattle is just an assembly plant, that is where all the parts come together to be assembled into an aircraft.

This is a classic example of supply chain failure. They're gonna be writing textbooks with Airbus' problems in them in a few years.

Anyways, the A380 isn't really in trouble. It's still an excellent aircraft, and the orders are (on the whole) not being ditched. I hear Emirates has actually upped its order by another few planes.

The design is very good. It's just that the production facilities were not working together as they should have been.

Oh, and before anyone starts looking at this as a US vs EU thing (IDF, I'm looking at you here)...Boeing's best aircraft, the 777, was a world-wide project, involving companies from pretty much every continent. Look at where the bits of that jet come from - in fact, my textbook now has the design and success of the 777 as an example of how to operate a truly global project.

It isn't my intention to make this a US vs. EU thread. It was my intention though to make sure I posted this thread because some EU people a few years back did this when Airbust passed up Boeing. It's only fair that I made this thread now.

While the A-380 may not be a horrible aircraft, I don't think its a practical one. The logistics of boarding that plane are going to be a bitch. I've read some articles that many airports don't have large enough taxi-ways for the aircraft. That will severely limit the number of routes it can take. There is also the issue that the tail tends to scrape the runway on take-off. That can not be good for the airframe over 25-30 years of use.

It isn't my intention to make this a US vs. EU thread. It was my intention though to make sure I posted this thread because some EU people a few years back did this when Airbust passed up Boeing. It's only fair that I made this thread now.

While the A-380 may not be a horrible aircraft, I don't think its a practical one. The logistics of boarding that plane are going to be a bitch. I've read some articles that many airports don't have large enough taxi-ways for the aircraft. That will severely limit the number of routes it can take. There is also the issue that the tail tends to scrape the runway on take-off. That can not be good for the airframe over 25-30 years of use.

I thought Airbus stated that the A380 was going to mainly be used as a transcontinental aircraft.

I think Emirates will have more patience than FedEx, but there's a limit to that as well. As the current order backup in production for Boeing might make the wait longer than the wait a bit longer for 747s.

I think it's time for Boeing to look at some capital expansion.

I bet they will be doing that now. Its understandable why they wouldn't have expanded in the last 7 years. Ever since 1998, many US Airlines were in trouble. 9-11 only made the problem worse. It is just recently that things have turned around for Boeing.

I might add that rapid expansion here could be dangerous too. Boeing needs to make sure this isn't a temporary surge. If it is, they can really get a bite in the ass if they then invest billions in manufacturing facilities.

I thought Airbus stated that the A380 was going to mainly be used as a transcontinental aircraft.

That's true, but there are still international airports that won't be able to support it. I'm wondering if O'Hare can even support it. (If you've ever been to O'Hare you realize how dangerous the taxiways there are)

It isn't my intention to make this a US vs. EU thread. It was my intention though to make sure I posted this thread because some EU people a few years back did this when Airbust passed up Boeing. It's only fair that I made this thread now.
Oh, rest assured that in Germany at least, everyone knows. The media is all over it, there's even all sorts of talk about the government buying up a stake as the big companies are getting rid of theirs (though that's got more reasons than just this A380 debacle).

I thought Airbus stated that the A380 was going to mainly be used as a transcontinental aircraft.
Exactly. It's for the long, main hauls...ie Frankfurt - Singapore for example. And those airports have already put the necessary modifications in place.

Plus, the airlines have obviously crunched the numbers and have come to the conclusion that the idea of having more people on a flight on thouse routes is very much worth it. If they were to cancel the orders now it's not a question of the design or concept being at fault, it's a question of the production facilities having failed to deliver the ordered planes.

That's true, but there are still international airports that won't be able to support it. I'm wondering if O'Hare can even support it. (If you've ever been to O'Hare you realize how dangerous the taxiways there are)

I've been to O' Hare several times, and jeez that place is busy! Of course it is the world's busiest airport.

I thought Airbus stated that the A380 was going to mainly be used as a transcontinental aircraft.

As I understand it, its a hub-to-hub aircraft. Unfortunately, a large portion of the major airports don't have the facilities to handle a plane that bloody big.

It has a 15K kilometer range, so I guess that would give it decent range. If they can remove the rough equivelant of 55 passengers from it first.


A380-800 - Wing span 79.8m (261ft 10in), length 72,75m (238ft 8in). Height 24,08 m (79ft)

And it currently weighs in at over 600 tons.

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/11/08/2060259.htm
[November 08, 2006]
(Gulf News Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) London: Emirates airline will not reconsider its Airbus A380 order, according to a top company executive.

"Compensation is not our target, what we really seek is to give a chance for Airbus to deliver what they promised so that we can assess, because we need that aircraft," Tim Clark, president of Emirates told Gulf News at the World Travel Market in London yesterday.

"We do not seek to strike a balance between aircraft manufacturers, we only need to get what we want, and when we place an order we seek that the manufacturer succeeds because at the end of the day this comes in our interest."

"What induces us to wait for the A380 is that we want it to be a top-rated aircraft, and two years is not a long time in this industry," he said.

Clark added that the airline's development is tied to Dubai's future, and that what is apparent now constitutes only 20 per cent of what will be happening in 2015 or 2020....

See, for Emirates this is the point. You don't place the biggest order in aviation history without that forming a key part of your long-term corporate strategy. They can't simply switch to 747s or 777s because that would require them to change their strategy significantly.

Before they do that, they're gonna do everything they can to make that plane happen (which it eventually will).

That will help methinks. But I wonder how much longer Airbus can afford the delays. As I understand it, they have to pay the customers a fine for missing contracted deadlines. After two years, with no really definite end in sight, that is gotta be hurting their pocketbooks.

I think Airbust passing them earlier in the decade is just what Boeing needed. That kick in the groin led to the 787.

Sometimes getting ones ass kicked makes them stronger. Or what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. Either term applies to this one. I was also telling people to buy Boeing stock at $33. Hopefully people listened. :p

That will help methinks...
Well, they're still making a lot of cash from other planes (link (http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-11-09T200529Z_01_N09398869_RTRIDST_0_TRANSPORT-AIRBUS-UPDATE-1.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna)).

Ultimately Airbus is in a sort of partnership with its major customers, those who need the A380 as part of their strategy. The compensation payments won't be huge, those airlines aren't interested in crippling their supplier.

Maybe they'll just be getting a discount on future orders or something for a while.

That's good to hear. I love the 777 but I have to give it to the Airbus 380, its huge and cool.

Airbus has major internal problems too.

CEOs bailing. Dual positions are a big one.

Did they ever get the internals straightened out?

Did they ever get the internals straightened out?
It's a very artificial sort of company. It's being dragged down by the various national interests within it.

So no, unless the French and the Germans sit down and just let the company be, there won't be much straightening done.

It's a very artificial sort of company. It's being dragged down by the various national interests within it.

So no, unless the French and the Germans sit down and just let the company be, there won't be much straightening done.

And thus we see the inefficiencies of a Socialist system.

I actually want Airbus to see some success. After all, someone has to keep Boeing on their heels or else we won't see any innovations in air travel.

Airbus sure is losing not because it doesn't have technically proficient work force, executive managment or finances but because it is a continual roll of red tape mired in pork barrel politics that live on EU (especially French) government bailouts. Everytime a German company wins a contract, an Italian, Bulgarain or Somethingorother company scream political murder and the whole enterprise is stalled.

That's good to hear. I love the 777 but I have to give it to the Airbus 380, its huge and cool.

It is rather phallic, isn't it?

*cough*

That's good to hear. I love the 777 but I have to give it to the Airbus 380, its huge and cool.

and it's long. *snickers*

I actually have stock in Jet Blue, which flies Airbust and Embraer aircraft.

Not to get off topic, but Embraer interests me greatly, and you seem quite knowledgable on the subject. What have they been up to lately?

Not to get off topic, but Embraer interests me greatly, and you seem quite knowledgable on the subject. What have they been up to lately?

Embraer is currently filling a void that has existed for the last 50 years. There really hasn't been much of an effort to build regional jets that carry 100 people on some of the shorter routes. Boeing tried and failed with the 717.

With the emergence of low cost carriers that want to service some of the smaller markets but can't afford to have empty seats, the time is ripe for this sort of aircraft. Airbus's A-318 and Boeing's 737-600 are direct competiters with Embraer's E-190 series. If you combine total A-318 and 737-600 orders, the E-190 still has them beat. Jet Blue has 20 in service with 81 more on order plus an option to buy 100 additional aircraft. US Airways has about 50 on order as does Air Canada.

That's true, but there are still international airports that won't be able to support it. I'm wondering if O'Hare can even support it.

I know for sure that Milano Malpensa cannot. They're planning to raze down some of the nearby Ticino natural preserve to lenghten the runways.

And here I thought this was about the Britney Spears / K-Fed break-up. Must be Friday.

It is rather phallic, isn't it?

*cough*
So is every other flying tube of metal. ;)