NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people. For all those who never gave up and never relented I salute you. Many of you came from this venue and to the ones that remain I salute you too!

As Edmund Burke once said;

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

You did something.

I can't tell you how happy I am and you should be too. America is back on the right track. I have a feeling that Bush will no longer be an obstructionist of the American constitution on a whim or "I'M THE DECIDER" grounds anymore.

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.

I think you may be in for a slightly unpleasant suprise.

Hear hear! :D

Thanks, Steph. I'll make sure to give the US a nice pat on the back for you. Honestly, although we often disagree on politics, I'm with you in being glad that the Dems carried this one. :)

You making a return to NS?

You making a return to NS?

I've never really left.. I just go long periods of time in between posting. I tend to be very picky about what I post and post to these days. I get my political outlet with my radio show.

I've never really left.. I just go long periods of time in between posting. I tend to be very picky about what I post and post to these days. I get my political outlet with my radio show.

So I hear. I do occasionally check your Myspace, and not just for the pictures of you. ;)

I couldn't be happier with the results, myself. But I do hope that this bunch will be quite a bit busier than the one we ousted.

(Even my GOP father voted Dem in this one. :D )

I agree with not letting them forget why they're there in the first place. And perhaps we can convince them to stop the disgusting practice of piggy-backing bills while we're at it.....but probably not. :rolleyes:

ROFL!
We don’t need your condescension.

Most of those newly elected Democrats are conservatives. They have to be in order to win the game of demographics played in the various districts.

Nothing will changel, nothing substantial anyway.

and a month later, the Democrats dirty sheets will be hung out for the world to see.

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people. For all those who never gave up and never relented I salute you. Many of you came from this venue and to the ones that remain I salute you too!

You did something.

I can't tell you how happy I am and you should be too. America is back on the right track. I have a feeling that Bush will no longer be an obstructionist of the American constitution on a whim or "I'M THE DECIDER" grounds anymore.

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.
*I am a Canadian and I approve of this message!! :)

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people. For all those who never gave up and never relented I salute you. Many of you came from this venue and to the ones that remain I salute you too!

As Edmund Burke once said;



You did something.

I can't tell you how happy I am and you should be too. America is back on the right track. I have a feeling that Bush will no longer be an obstructionist of the American constitution on a whim or "I'M THE DECIDER" grounds anymore.

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.
*Sighs* what a relief! I thought this thread was created by an extremely sarcastic conservative!

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people.

Thanks. Your congratulations will help us when the partisan bickering stops us from getting anything whatsoever done.

I'm a moderate, and I voted for a few democrats as well as a few republicans, but with talk running up to the election of bringing impeachment proceedings against the president from Furhrer Pelosi and Rangel trying to get Cheney kicked out of his office just because he dislikes the guy, I'm not very optimistic that the change will be positive.

ROFL!
We don’t need your condescension.

Most of those newly elected Democrats are conservatives. They have to be in order to win the game of demographics played in the various districts.

Nothing will changel, nothing substantial anyway.
Well if anything they'll be more to the center than the most of the former republicans.

It's good to have divided government again, it is really rather good.

Although, I hope in '08 it switches, R's in congress and a D president.

It's good to have divided government again, it is really rather good.

Although, I hope in '08 it switches, R's in congress and a D president.

Eh I doubt it though, last time the Dems were able to hold onto the house for 40 years, so who knows how long they'll hold onto the house this time.

Well if anything they'll be more to the center than the most of the former republicans.
The center is a myth. There is only what works and what doesn't.

All politicians have the same fatal flaw. They are interested in what gets them reelected, even if it doesn’t work.

Eh neither party has their act together right now so it'll be interesting to see where America goes...

Thanks. Your congratulations will help us when the partisan bickering stops us from getting anything whatsoever done.

that would be a huge improvement over the current situation.

I'm a moderate, and I voted for a few democrats as well as a few republicans

anyone who ever votes for republicans loses all claim on moderation.

Eh I doubt it though, last time the Dems were able to hold onto the house for 40 years, so who knows how long they'll hold onto the house this time.

Depends on how happy/unhappy voters are with the 110th(?) Congress. If there is nothing but gridlock, and voters get pissed off again in 2008, anything could happen.

anyone who ever votes for republicans loses all claim on moderation.

It's a funny thing. I've never voted for a Republican, and I still think that statement is a gross generalization and bullshit.

It's a funny thing. I've never voted for a Republican, and I still think that statement is a gross generalization and bullshit.

Agreed, from the same position of having never voted for a Republican.

I have voted Republican in the past because I thought they were better on defense. But I like to look at what I like to call "reality" and they seem to not be familiar with it. Hence I voted for the Democrats. I also thank whatever powers that be that Rumsfeld is gone.

You're welcome, world. Sorry it took so long. :fluffle:

its going to be same the democrats are going to just worry about staying in office and are going to do what ever it takes

I would have most likely voted Democrat, but I find the whole message of this thread a little, well, condescending. I'm not even sure why I feel that. It has something to do with their being a right or wrong answer and the rest of us being proud of the Americans for getting it right.

I don't know. I feel the same way when people say they are proud of recovering alcoholics for how far they've come. Something just seems off about it.

Before this is taken the wrong way, I know this wasn't Stephistan's intention, but does anyone else feel the same way about things like this?

I would have most likely voted Democrat, but I find the whole message of this thread a little, well, condescending. I'm not even sure why I feel that. It has something to do with their being a right or wrong answer and the rest of us being proud of the Americans for getting it right.

I don't know. I feel the same way when people say they are proud of recovering alcoholics for how far they've come. Something just seems off about it.

Before this is taken the wrong way, I know this wasn't Stephistan's intention, but does anyone else feel the same way about things like this?
It might seem that way to me, too, if my country hadn't actually gone completely off its rocker for 6 years in a way that threatened world stability, and so badly so that there was serious talk of whether we would choose to abandon democracy altogether in a few more years.

I don't think we Americans should underestimate the effect our little national episode had on our allies. It must have seemed like a loved one suddenly joined a cult or suddenly started talking about the messages he was receiving telepathically from King Arthur through the microwave oven. What does one say, where does one look, when one suddenly no longer feels safe around one's friend? I was just talking about this with my mom, and we speculated it must have been especially hard for Canada, being right next door. I wonder if it was like a nation-scale equivalent to finding yourself in a very small elevator with someone who suddenly starts talking to himself very loudly and angrily.

anyone who ever votes for republicans loses all claim on moderation.
Don't be an ass, FS.

The Democratic party is really little better than the Republican. The only reason we don't see their corruption, and their scandal is that they've been out of power for the last 12 years. I expect that'll change, and I desperately hope that America'll grow another party or two, we desperately need them.

I tried to write a detailed exposition here, but I'm so tired my eyes are unfocussing while I stare at the screen. Night, all.

It's a funny thing. I've never voted for a Republican, and I still think that statement is a gross generalization and bullshit.

you might have a point, if it wasn't the case that the republican party marches in lockstep and routinely goes off and institutes dictatorial powers for themselves. it is time for everyone to stop pretending that the republicans are anything other than a radical, anti-democratic, anti-liberty movement.

Don't be an ass, FS.

The Democratic party is really little better than the Republican. The only reason we don't see their corruption, and their scandal is that they've been out of power for the last 12 years. I expect that'll change, and I desperately hope that America'll grow another party or two, we desperately need them.

I tried to write a detailed exposition here, but I'm so tired my eyes are unfocussing while I stare at the screen. Night, all.

yes, the democrats are only marginally better than the republicans. i have never denied this. that does nothing to undermine the truth of my statement.

you might have a point, if it wasn't the case that the republican party marches in lockstep and routinely goes off and institutes dictatorial powers for themselves. it is time for everyone to stop pretending that the republicans are anything other than a radical, anti-democratic, anti-liberty movement.

The Republican party marches in lockstep? At the very least, you could aknowledge the exceptions to the trend of "we r militant Xtians we pwn you" that goes on in the party. I've met a fair number of Republicans who were not at all like that, some of them on this forum, and I would like to see more of those folks join the party to move it towards the center.

And just because the party does not advocate the same degree of democracy and liberty that you or I do hardly makes them opposed to either liberty or democracy.

The Republican party marches in lockstep? At the very least, you could aknowledge the exceptions to the trend of "we r militant Xtians we pwn you" that goes on in the party. I've met a fair number of Republicans who were not at all like that, some of them on this forum, and I would like to see more of those folks join the party to move it towards the center.

how nice for them. when it matters they still vote for the party that marches in lockstep. it's like trying to claim that you want to work for the partito nazionale fascista in order to move it towards the center - at best it demonstrates that you are criminally naive. but even that excuse only works once, and these people haven't changed sides yet.

how nice for them. when it matters they still vote for the party that marches in lockstep. it's like trying to claim that you want to work for the partito nazionale fascista in order to move it towards the center - at best it demonstrates that you are criminally naive. but even that excuse only works once, and these people haven't changed sides yet.

I notice you didn't respond to my second point. Any particular reason for that?

In any case, the validity of your comparison of the Republicans with the fascist party in Italy hinges on the validity of your response to that second point, so I'm out of moves until you address it.

It might seem that way to me, too, if my country hadn't actually gone completely off its rocker for 6 years in a way that threatened world stability, and so badly so that there was serious talk of whether we would choose to abandon democracy altogether in a few more years.

I don't think we Americans should underestimate the effect our little national episode had on our allies. It must have seemed like a loved one suddenly joined a cult or suddenly started talking about the messages he was receiving telepathically from King Arthur through the microwave oven. What does one say, where does one look, when one suddenly no longer feels safe around one's friend? I was just talking about this with my mom, and we speculated it must have been especially hard for Canada, being right next door. I wonder if it was like a nation-scale equivalent to finding yourself in a very small elevator with someone who suddenly starts talking to himself very loudly and angrily.
You got that right!! :)

I notice you didn't respond to my second point. Any particular reason for that?

mainly because i refused to dignify with a response the idea that the party of torture and wars of aggression and secret police and all-pervasive domestic spying and indefinite detention without charge or trial or appeal and xenophobia and calling for reporters to be arrested for exposing their crimes, etc. could ever reasonably be called anything other than fundamentally opposed to liberty and democracy.

that's just the facts on the ground. as is the notion that no matter what they say, the republican party uniformly lines up behind any authoritarian measure they think up. even the one or two stragglers don't abandon the party over it, which makes for tacit approval of the pro-dictatorship agenda.

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

Geez get a grip. What is the Dems super plan to save America? Can someone please tell me?

Geez get a grip. What is the Dems super plan to save America? Can someone please tell me?

merely slowing down the republican authoritarian death cult would be immense progress on the road to salvation

STEPH!

*tackles*


glad to read that the radio show is still going on...I sadly haven't been able to catch it recently, but hopefully I will this week.

And no, I have noting relevant to say. Ever.

*Sighs* what a relief! I thought this thread was created by an extremely sarcastic conservative!

No-its far worse. A condescending canadian patting you on the head.

And no, I have noting relevant to say. Ever.

I for one don't care, as long as you keep saying it. :)

I for one don't care, as long as you keep saying it. :)

Deal. By the way, did you recieve your welcome back tackle? I can't remember....

Geez get a grip. What is the Dems super plan to save America? Can someone please tell me?

"plan"? whats a "plan"? There's no plan-aside from lengthy investigations and undoing.

Save? Save what? The economy? Uh-no-thats ok.

Unemployment? Uh-no thats ok too.

Inflation? That wont show up again till they've been at it for a while.

the stock market? Nope- it was setting record highs til this week.

Deal. By the way, did you recieve your welcome back tackle? I can't remember....

Even if I had, I would have lied about it to thieve myself another one, this time being better-positioned...

merely slowing down the republican authoritarian death cult would be immense progress on the road to salvation
Somebody's paranoid.
The republicans arent out to rule te world and deceive it at the same time, Bush loves thsi country as much as any of us, he jsut might have trouble running it. But he means the best.

*I am a Canadian and I approve of this message!! :)

What a load off my mind. The Canadians like us again, eh?

mainly because i refused to dignify with a response the idea that the party of torture and wars of aggression and secret police and all-pervasive domestic spying and indefinite detention without charge or trial or appeal and xenophobia and calling for reporters to be arrested for exposing their crimes, etc. could ever reasonably be called anything other than fundamentally opposed to liberty and democracy. that's just the facts on the ground.

It's the only facts you mention. Let's look at some more.

as is the notion that no matter what they say, the republican party uniformly lines up behind any authoritarian measure they think up. even the one or two stragglers don't abandon the party over it, which makes for tacit approval of the pro-dictatorship agenda.

Ah. I see. Your understanding of "any authoritarian measure" must be different than mine. As I recall from reviewing the party platform, the GOP does want to deregulate the use of firearms, allow folks to have more choice in where they send their kids to school, wants to continue to allow those kids to voluntarily pray in school, supports the inclusion and advancement of women in the military, and is certainly not in favor of a lot of new authoritarian measures to regulate industry. ;)

I don't think the Republicans are the party of love, peace, and fluffy bunnies any more than you do, but the evidence does not suggest to me that the party is inherently opposed to democracy (in fact they seem to be really good at using it for their aims), or liberty (the liberties they happen to approve of they advocate, naturally).

Even if I had, I would have lied about it to thieve myself another one, this time being better-positioned...
*tackles*

Geez get a grip. What is the Dems super plan to save America? Can someone please tell me?


no, theres no plan, just a series of actionable items. :p

What a load off my mind. The Canadians like us again, eh?

All sarcasm aside, having allies and neighbors that like us is a very good thing.

It's the only facts you mention. Let's look at some more.
...
As I recall from reviewing the party platform, the GOP does want to deregulate the use of firearms, allow folks to have more choice in where they send their kids to school, wants to continue to allow those kids to voluntarily pray in school, supports the inclusion and advancement of women in the military, and is certainly not in favor of a lot of new authoritarian measures to regulate industry. ;)

I don't think the Republicans are the party of love, peace, and fluffy bunnies any more than you do, but the evidence does not suggest to me that the party is inherently opposed to democracy (in fact they seem to be really good at using it for their aims), or liberty (the liberties they happen to approve of they advocate, naturally).

i think it more than safe to say that being pro-indefinite detention, pro-torture, and pro-bushisabovethelaw fairly conclusively overwhelms any incidental liberty they don't happen to want to take away just yet. it is literally like saying that pinochet was a champion of liberty because he deregulated chile's banks. when it comes to describing some person of group as being in favor of or opposed to liberty, there are some things that actually count. and on those issues, the republican party falls utterly flat.

I am by no means a democrat. Yet here I am, and I split my ticket. There were ten races, and I voted for 6 republicans, 3 democrats and one write in "none of these idiots!"

I think the parties are moving again. Fifty years ago, if you were a conservative Christian, you were a democrat. My parents are still registered democrat. Someplace in there, they moved from reasonable into lunatic. I think the republicans are in the process of doing the same thing. They're turning into a big-government party. They're losing what they had. And perhaps the democrats are gaining it again!

Ideally, we'd go with a much more brittish style. We need a three-sided fence. Or a five sided fence. I'm getting so sick of having a two-party system. What am I supposed to do when I don't agree with any of them? Even with the FOUR person race for congress here, I STILL felt obliged to write in "none of these idiots". I did a bunch of reading Monday. I read up on the first one, and thought "boy, he's an idiot. I'm not voting for him." Then I read up on the second one and thought "this one's an idiot too. He's just as bad as the first guy, if not worse." Then I read up on the third and fourth, and they were really MORE idiotic than the first two. We need valid, reasonable third and fourth party candidates for when the first two parties are stupid.

Someplace in there, they moved from reasonable into lunatic. I think the republicans are in the process of doing the same thing. They're turning into a big-government party.

in the process?! fucking christo man, i'd hate to see what they'd be when they got there.

see TH - this is a republican 'moderate'. clearly delusional - and that's if we want to be nice about it.

All sarcasm aside, having allies and neighbors that like us is a very good thing.

The Mexicans like us -- a lot. It's not always a good thing. ;)

*tackles*

*feels nuts*

*feels nuts*

I hope you mean you feel insane... :p

I hope you mean you feel insane... :p

Well it is insanely rigid.

i think it more than safe to say that being pro-indefinite detention, pro-torture, and pro-bushisabovethelaw fairly conclusively overwhelms any incidental liberty they don't happen to want to take away just yet. it is literally like saying that pinochet was a champion of liberty because he deregulated chile's banks. when it comes to describing some person of group as being in favor of or opposed to liberty, there are some things that actually count. and on those issues, the republican party falls utterly flat.

You just implied that there are certain liberties that "count" and others that do not. I have to admit, I'm very surprised that you would even imply that. :confused:

And I very much disagree that certain liberties do not "count" as liberties, (even if we specify that it is for the purposes of determining whether an entity can be said to oppose liberty). I take the liberty to own firearms as seriously as I do the liberty to marry whomever I please. I take the liberty of a woman to control her own body as seriously as I do her liberty to risk that body to join in fighting for her country.

As a result, regardless of which liberties a person advocates, I recognize that they are indeed advocating liberty, and will not claim that they oppose liberty wholesale.

Well it is insanely rigid.

Oh dear...

in the process?! fucking christo man, i'd hate to see what they'd be when they got there.

see TH - this is a republican 'moderate'. clearly delusional - and that's if we want to be nice about it.

If I wanted to be nice about it, I would be using the word "mistaken" rather than "delusional", personally.

You just implied that there are certain liberties that "count" and others that do not. I have to admit, I'm very surprised that you would even imply that.

some liberties are foundational. if the state can have you disappeared, not much else matters. any transient bit of liberty you may have exists entirely at the whim of rulers, and can be stripped from you at any time with no cause or recourse. in a very real sense, you have no liberty at all.

some liberties are foundational.

I would really be interested to hear which ones you believe to be foundational and why.

if the state can have you disappeared, not much else matters. any transient bit of liberty you may have exists entirely at the whim of rulers, and can be stripped from you at any time with no cause or recourse. in a very real sense, you have no liberty at all.

So if your liberties can be taken away, you don't really have them? I find that laughable.

Let's use an example with something else we might possess. Let's say my foundational possession is my home. Now let's say that my parents have the deed to it and can boot me out at any time they please. Does the fact that they can boot me out of my home mean I don't really have a home?

Let's get more basic and say that I can get mugged and have my watch stolen from me. Would you then say that I don't really have the watch?

One more to get in an abstract example. Let's say that I have an intellect, and I could possibly sustain brain damage that would take that from me. Do I not really have an intellect?

The truth is that we do have things, even if they could get taken away later.

I would really be interested to hear which ones you believe to be foundational and why.

general protections of autonomous action and restrictions on the arbitrary exercise of authority. if the state can lawfully have you disappeared on the whim of the ruling class, then it is impossible for you to have any liberty at all.

So if your liberties can be taken away, you don't really have them? I find that laughable.

Let's use an example with something else we might possess. Let's say my foundational possession is my home. Now let's say that my parents have the deed to it and can boot me out at any time they please. Does the fact that they can boot me out of my home mean I don't really have a home?

Let's get more basic and say that I can get mugged and have my watch stolen from me. Would you then say that I don't really have the watch?

One more to get in an abstract example. Let's say that I have an intellect, and I could possibly sustain brain damage that would take that from me. Do I not really have an intellect?

The truth is that we do have things, even if they could get taken away later.

it's not that they might go away later that undermines them. it is the fact that without the foundational liberty entailed in the state not being allowed to just pick you up off the street and dump you in a hole, you literally do not have any truly autonomous actions available to you. everything you do is entirely at the whim of the state.

being able to choose which school to go to might be an example of liberty under some systems, but in a system without basic general protections of autonomy it is not. there is no sphere of action where you are protected from the arbitrary exercise of authority, because they can at any time and for any reason stop you from doing anything they want and there ain't shit you could do about it.

All sarcasm aside, having allies and neighbors that like us is a very good thing.
One needs to be liked for the right reasons. I think that responsibility will force the new majority to govern, rather than harass, and that does mean that America comes first.

general protections of autonomous action and restrictions on the arbitrary exercise of authority. if the state can lawfully have you disappeared on the whim of the ruling class, then it is impossible for you to have any liberty at all.

it's not that they might go away later that undermines them. it is the fact that without the foundational liberty entailed in the state not being allowed to just pick you up off the street and dump you in a hole, you literally do not have any truly autonomous actions available to you. everything you do is entirely at the whim of the state.

being able to choose which school to go to might be an example of liberty under some systems, but in a system without basic general protections of autonomy it is not. there is no sphere of action where you are protected from the arbitrary exercise of authority, because they can at any time and for any reason stop you from doing anything they want and there ain't shit you could do about it.

Still laughable. I might as well say that everything I do is at the whim of the mafia because they can at any time come and pick me off the street and dump me in a hole.

One needs to be liked for the right reasons. I think that responsibility will force the new majority to govern, rather than harass, and that does mean that America comes first.

Well and good. When the liberties of American citizens come first, we'll gain standing in Canada as a result. When the welfare of American citizens come first, we'll gain standing in Canada as a result. They seem to like it when nations care for their citizens properly. It works out nicely for everyone that way.

Yes, I'm glad the Dems are in power now.
And yes, too many of them are Republican-lite. Especially here in Oklahoma. But really, things couldn't be any worse than having the executive and both legislative branches in the hands of increasingly dictatorial hands of the Bush cronies.

Well and good. When the liberties of American citizens come first, we'll gain standing in Canada as a result. When the welfare of American citizens come first, we'll gain standing in Canada as a result. They seem to like it when nations care for their citizens properly. It works out nicely for everyone that way.

You need to get over the idea of using some other nation's public opinion as a yardstick of how well we treat our citizens. We have a perfectly good yardstick called the Constitution. That is what we should use to determine if civil liberties are being lost or preserved.

Still laughable. I might as well say that everything I do is at the whim of the mafia because they can at any time come and pick me off the street and dump me in a hole.

alright, i don't think we both mean the same thing by 'liberty'. what do you mean by the term?

You need to get over the idea of using some other nation's public opinion as a yardstick of how well we treat our citizens. We have a perfectly good yardstick called the Constitution. That is what we should use to determine if civil liberties are being lost or preserved.

You need to get over the idea that you know prior to me telling you what kind of yardstick I'm using. I'll give you a hint. It sure as hell ain't Canadian public opinion.

As it happens, I'm a big fan of the Constitution, and I don't like it that American politicians and the American people have been abusing it like a red-headed stepchild all these years. I don't like it that the American law which is supposed to be based on the Constitution was used to make some folks count as 3/5 of a person. I don't like it that it was was used to ban alcohol. I don't like it that my great-grandmother wasn't allowed the right to vote until the early 1900's. And these are just a small sample. The Constitution has been twisted and and screwed for the sake of stupid bigotry and tradition, impractical moralising, and partisan political aims nearly since the time it was written.

And then we have George W. Bush, nominal head of his party and an American citizen and our President and Commander-in-Chief, supporting the FMA, which makes a mockery of the Constitution by using it to deny equal legal privilege to other American citizens. Rather than using it to guarantee the rights of Americans, he tries to use it to deny some of them equal privileges based on the fact that they like to get it on with consenting adults of the same sex.

I'll tell you who isn't using the Constitution as a yardstick. Right now, it's the Republican party. It's our President, and his administration. If you want to complain about someone not using the Constitution as their yardstick, start there, where it's being used as toilet paper by politicians who think their shit smells like roses after they've eaten good Mexican food prepared by their illegal immigrant cooks and maids.

alright, i don't think we both mean the same thing by 'liberty'. what do you mean by the term?

Indeed we don't. You seem to believe in positive liberty to a much, much larger degree than I do. I see liberty in the political sense as a lack of government coercion in any particular area of action at any particular time.

.



Indeed we don't. You seem to believe in positive liberty to a much, much larger degree than I do. I see liberty in the political sense as a lack of government coercion in any particular area of action at any particular time.

I think your account of liberty here is seriously lacking. I think that to account fully for liberty, the idea of rights has to be considered.

It does not seem enough that the government grants us a two-day free speech pass - some inviolable right to free speech should exist for us to have meaningful liberty in that realm. A more comprehensive definition for liberty ought to include the notion that we can predict the degree of freedom we have.

If i can say, "i have freedom of speech today and tomorrow, because of my two-day freedom of speech pass, but i might get shot behind the ministry friday for doing this same thing," then I dont think I have any liberty in regard to free speech. Liberty would mean "I have freedom of speech all days forever, on account of it being my right."

'Liberty' is not the right word to describe the nonce freedoms it seems you mean by "lack of ... coercion in any particular area... at any particular time..."

As it happens, I'm a big fan of the Constitution, and I don't like it that American politicians and the American people have been abusing it like a red-headed stepchild all these years. I don't like it that the American law which is supposed to be based on the Constitution was used to make some folks count as 3/5 of a person. I don't like it that it was was used to ban alcohol. I don't like it that my great-grandmother wasn't allowed the right to vote until the early 1900's. And these are just a small sample. The Constitution has been twisted and and screwed for the sake of stupid bigotry and tradition, impractical moralising, and partisan political aims nearly since the time it was written.

And then we have George W. Bush, nominal head of his party and an American citizen and our President and Commander-in-Chief, supporting the FMA, which makes a mockery of the Constitution by using it to deny equal legal privilege to other American citizens. Rather than using it to guarantee the rights of Americans, he tries to use it to deny some of them equal privileges based on the fact that they like to get it on with consenting adults of the same sex.

Well said.

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people. For all those who never gave up and never relented I salute you. Many of you came from this venue and to the ones that remain I salute you too!

As Edmund Burke once said;



You did something.

I can't tell you how happy I am and you should be too. America is back on the right track. I have a feeling that Bush will no longer be an obstructionist of the American constitution on a whim or "I'M THE DECIDER" grounds anymore.

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.

ty

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.
I have little faith that the Democrats are especially progressive. Remember, in the Senate they only have a bare majority. (51 seats)

Though I would welcome investigations into the many mistakes of the past six years.

I congratulate Senator-elect Bernie Sanders.

and a month later, the Democrats dirty sheets will be hung out for the world to see.
For a "libertarian" you're pretty damn biased against the Democrats. You're clearly just another selfish conservative whiner.

anyone who ever votes for republicans loses all claim on moderation.
You're hardly an authority on moderation.

One needs to be liked for the right reasons. I think that responsibility will force the new majority to govern, rather than harass, and that does mean that America comes first.
Are you one of these people who believes Republican policies to have been in America's best interests?

Well, congratulations indeed! I'm so proud of the American people. For all those who never gave up and never relented I salute you. Many of you came from this venue and to the ones that remain I salute you too!

As Edmund Burke once said;



You did something.

I can't tell you how happy I am and you should be too. America is back on the right track. I have a feeling that Bush will no longer be an obstructionist of the American constitution on a whim or "I'M THE DECIDER" grounds anymore.

The mid-term elections were a clear sign that the majority of Americans voted for change. Change progressive style!

I ask the Americans here who fought the good fight for change that they don't let their representatives and senators forget why they were elected and to please not make the mistakes that the Republicans have made.

We've won the battle... but we still need to win the war. I believe this is a great start!

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.


Ummm ....the Change was towards the center from the right...for that I am a happy man...BUT..the new people elected are just as if not more conservative as the people they replaced...bringing the DemocrativcPARTY..not its leadership closer to reality.

But I will agree that its a good day to be an American . ;)

anyone who ever votes for republicans loses all claim on moderation.

That is total and utter bullshit...you vote for the best candidate , the best person ...the Party is secondary.

I think your account of liberty here is seriously lacking. I think that to account fully for liberty, the idea of rights has to be considered.

To me, rights are a specific type of liberty with the additional quality of being enshrined in law and enforced by law enforcement officials and/or the populace. So they're something more than just liberty in general. As a result, when discussing liberty in general, rights don't come up with me, because I see them as having other conditions that make them something more than liberty.

It does not seem enough that the government grants us a two-day free speech pass - some inviolable right to free speech should exist for us to have meaningful liberty in that realm. A more comprehensive definition for liberty ought to include the notion that we can predict the degree of freedom we have.

The sufficiency of what liberty you have is a moral/ethical question, and I'll agree that we should have a higher degree of liberty than would be allowed for by the definition. But I'm not about to change the definition to suit your preferences any more than I've changed it to suit mine.

If i can say, "i have freedom of speech today and tomorrow, because of my two-day freedom of speech pass, but i might get shot behind the ministry friday for doing this same thing," then I dont think I have any liberty in regard to free speech. Liberty would mean "I have freedom of speech all days forever, on account of it being my right."

I think you're confusing liberty and rights, personally.

And now for something completely different...

Well said.

Thanks. :)

Thank you for responding to my post. I have read all of the comments to this point. I think some make some excellent points and others, well, not so much.

As for being "center" is a myth, that would be a gross distortion of the facts. You need look no further than Bill Clinton to find the ultimate centrist.

As for the election itself, if nothing else, it was a win for Americans because it puts back in place a set of checks & balances. No real democracy can thrive or for that matter exist without a separation of powers to keep them as honest as possible.

I also wanted to add, I in no way meant to be-little or be condescending in my tone. I was being sincere in my post.

I do believe the world is safer now because of the Democrat victory, if only my friends for those so very important checks & balances.

Peace - Stephanie Larocque.

Indeed we don't. You seem to believe in positive liberty to a much, much larger degree than I do. I see liberty in the political sense as a lack of government coercion in any particular area of action at any particular time.

so liberty would exist even in a state that had outlawed any speech opposing the ruling party, provided the police were not currently standing next to you when you spoke?

As for being "center" is a myth, that would be a gross distortion of the facts. You need look no further than Bill Clinton to find the ultimate centrist.

or moderate rightwinger - ymmv

As for being "center" is a myth, that would be a gross distortion of the facts. You need look no further than Bill Clinton to find the ultimate centrist.
The ultimate corpocrat, right-wing neo-liberal you mean. I'm sick to death of leftist fellating Clinton when the facts reveal that he was practically a clone of Reagan with different rhetoric.

so liberty would exist even in a state that had outlawed any speech opposing the ruling party, provided the police were not currently standing next to you when you spoke?

Yes. A much lower degree of liberty than would be found in some other states, but liberty nonetheless.

or moderate rightwinger - ymmv

Indeed.

The ultimate corpocrat, right-wing neo-liberal you mean. I'm sick to death of leftist fellating Clinton when the facts reveal that he was practically a clone of Reagan with different rhetoric.

His foreign policy wasn't quite as bad as Reagan's, at least not in Latin America.