NationStates Jolt Archive

During the shelling of a suspected Kassam launch site in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli forces apparently misfired and an artillery round hit a civilian area, causing the death of 18 civilians (10 children and 8 women) and wounding 50, 14 of them seriously.

Unfortunately, this is nothing new. What is more interesting than usual, however, is the reactions from both sides:

Defense Minister Amir Peretz decided to halt IDF artillery fire directed at Kassam launch sites in the Gaza Strip until the completion of the investigation into the apparent misfiring of an artillery round, which resulted in the death of 18 civilians in northern Gaza on Wednesday morning.

Chief of Staff, Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz appointed Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi, deputy OC Ground Forces Command, to head the inquiry.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Peretz issued an apology for the killing of innocent civilians and offered the Palestinians humanitarian and medical assistance.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378352095&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
An almost immediate apology - that's a good sign. The first good move they've done in a long time?

Palestinians will respond to an Israeli artillery bombardment that killed 18 civilians with "deeds, not words," Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal warned on Wednesday.
This is a bad thing...
Spokesman for the Hamas-led PA government, Ghazi Hamed said in response, "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth."

According to Hamed, "Israel is a nation of animals that has no human values and is a disgrace to the modern world."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378349443&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And it gets worse:
Signaling a change in tactics, Hamas' military wing on Wednesday called on Muslims around the world to attack American targets after an apparent misfiring of an IDF artillery shell in the Gaza Strip.

"America is offering political, financial and logistic cover for the Zionist occupation crimes, and it is responsible for the Beit Hanoun massacre. Therefore, the people and the nation all over the globe are required to teach the American enemy tough lessons," Hamas said in a statement sent to The Associated Press.
Ghazi Hamad, spokesman for the Hamas-led Palestinian government, said the group had no intention of attacking American targets.

"Our battle is against the occupation on the Palestinian land. We have no interest to transfer the battle," he said, though he said America was indirectly responsible for Wednesday's bloodshed because of its support for Israel.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378352193&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So... The spokesman for the Hamas-led Palestinian government seems to be more than willing to resume attacks against Israel - I interpret his words to mean that he's calling for a new round of suicide bombings - but he doesn't seem quite as keen on the idea to attack American targets. Do you think this incident marks a change of tactics for Hamas, or is it just threats? Will they "only" renew their campaign against Israel, or do you think they will attack American targets as well? Would they have anything to gain from doing so?

Personally I don't think they will act on that last bit, as they only stand to loose by attacking american targets as far as I can tell...

sigh....

sounds like business as usual:(

... Israel and Palestine.

F*ck em.
I dont care if we have to wipe out 40% of the jews, all nations should open fire on the area.
It would solve a lot of problems in arabia.
THOSE arent the sort of jews creating a good image for themselves.
It makes people pissed.
They lost the land 1000's of years ago.
And they have claim?
F*ck that. Britain should have back india and its colonies then.
Spain should own south america.
Germany should have central europe.
And we all know what problems THOSE 3 caused.

I think we should ask the jews to leave, we gave them the land and we should take it away.
Blame the jews!!!

(An ironic statement from a Jew Descendant)

... Israel and Palestine.

F*ck em.
I dont care if we have to wipe out 40% of the jews, all nations should open fire on the area.
It would solve a lot of problems in arabia.
THOSE arent the sort of jews creating a good image for themselves.
It makes people pissed.
They lost the land 1000's of years ago.
And they have claim?
F*ck that. Britain should have back india and its colonies then.
Spain should own south america.
Germany should have central europe.
And we all know what problems THOSE 3 caused.

I think we should ask the jews to leave, we gave them the land and we should take it away.
Blame the jews!!!

(An ironic statement from a Jew Descendant)

I think we should kick out all the people who aren't willing to tolerate other relgions. I don't care if we have to take out 90% of the middle east to do it. If they can't peacefully coexist with somebody because of something as unimportant as what they believe about God, they don't deserve their holy lands. (And this applies to both sides.) I mean, we do it (the coexistance thing) in just about every civilized Western Country, it can't be that hard.

I think we should kick out all the people who aren't willing to tolerate other relgions. I don't care if we have to take out 90% of the middle east to do it. If they can't peacefully coexist with somebody because of something as unimportant as what they believe about God, they don't deserve their holy lands. (And this applies to both sides.) I mean, we do it (the coexistance thing) in just about every civilized Western Country, it can't be that hard.

:p i like this idea.

sigh....

sounds like business as usual:(

It does... And it kinda is...

But this Hamas-angle is new. Vocally threatening to attack US targets... it can't end well.

Oh, and Abbas apparently has decleared that Israel by this act has destroyed any last possibility for peace.

I love hearing people who are still stuck in the 13th century call other people a "disgrace to the modern world." If Western Union still sent telegrams, I'd wire Hamas: "Crusades ended 600 years ago. Stop. You won. Stop. Please Stop."

the hamas government takes the previous war that happened a few months back as a win for them. because Israel listened to the UN and a few other western countries and stopped the attack.

they will always see it as a win for them and they feel power from that "win".

Cant we just build a big wall around the whole area and lock them inside ...open it after a year and see who's left ?

I am sick of these idiots.

I love hearing people who are still stuck in the 13th century call other people a "disgrace to the modern world." If Western Union still sent telegrams, I'd wire Hamas: "Crusades ended 600 years ago. Stop. You won. Stop. Please Stop."

Hamas and Palestinians are hardly stuck in the 13th century. I do agree with the Prime Minister that Israel is a disgrace to the modern world, they are. And admittingly at times I question how human the Israelis really with the actions they do. I know they are human, but at times they act as nothing more than animals and rats not fit to have their own country.

Hamas and Palestinians are hardly stuck in the 13th century. I do agree with the Prime Minister that Israel is a disgrace to the modern world, they are. And admittingly at times I question how human the Israelis really with the actions they do. I know they are human, but at times they act as nothing more than animals and rats not fit to have their own country.



Actually I see the Palestinians as the rabid crack crazed rats and the Israeli's as insane exterminators on a crystal meth binge.

They both annoy the living crap out of me.

Oh, you gotta love that, Israel screws up, offers assistance to the people who they hurt, so those people declare war over it? And Sovietstan calls the Israelis the animals? At least they are trying to make good for their wrongdoing, when was the last time a terrorist group apologized for hitting the wrong target?

Hamas leadership now wants their people to attack Americans for an Israeli screwup? Have those idiots thought even for a moment that this would give our current government the perfect excuse to start throwing troops into Lebanon?

Or are they really looking to start a general war in the Mid-East?

I agree, run a wall around the entire Middle East, nothing goes in, nothing goes out, and see how many are still there in a year or two.

Oh, you gotta love that, Israel screws up, offers assistance to the people who they hurt, so those people declare war over it? And Sovietstan calls the Israelis the animals? At least they are trying to make good for their wrongdoing, when was the last time a terrorist group apologized for hitting the wrong target? .

They are the occupier so therefore they have not a leg to stand on.


Hamas leadership now wants their people to attack Americans for an Israeli screwup? Have those idiots thought even for a moment that this would give our current government the perfect excuse to start throwing troops into Lebanon?.

Seeing as they don't have enough for Iraq, where are they going to get them from?

the hamas government takes the previous war that happened a few months back as a win for them. because Israel listened to the UN and a few other western countries and stopped the attack.

they will always see it as a win for them and they feel power from that "win".
You mean the fight between Israel and Hezbollah?

Oh, you gotta love that, Israel screws up, offers assistance to the people who they hurt, so those people declare war over it?
Well, it's a bad screw-up, and I'm not surprised if it's seen as the last straw or something...
As for the offer of assistance - I guess it's too little too late it the eyes of the palestinians.

Official death toll is now 20, btw.

And Sovietstan calls the Israelis the animals? At least they are trying to make good for their wrongdoing, when was the last time a terrorist group apologized for hitting the wrong target?
When was the last time a terrorist group hit the wrong target?

Hamas leadership now wants their people to attack Americans for an Israeli screwup? Have those idiots thought even for a moment that this would give our current government the perfect excuse to start throwing troops into Lebanon?
Lebanon? :confused:

Hamas has got little to do with Lebanon...

Or are they really looking to start a general war in the Mid-East?

I agree, run a wall around the entire Middle East, nothing goes in, nothing goes out, and see how many are still there in a year or two.

I don't like either side either... The problem is the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.

Actually I see the Palestinians as the rabid crack crazed rats and the Israeli's as insane exterminators on a crystal meth binge.

They both annoy the living crap out of me.Love that picture. If I wasn't so lazy I'd sig that.

Same as always.

Here is my solution occupy Isriel Kill off the government force all The Jews to get on the land that was oficaly givin to them in 1948. Which DID NOT include Jeruselem by the way. Then If the palistenians still Keep fighting and killing people we would have the excuse to blast them off the planet and all problems are solved.

Piekrom;11920385']Here is my solution occupy Isriel Kill off the government force all The Jews to get on the land that was oficaly givin to them in 1948. Which DID NOT include Jeruselem by the way. Then If the palistenians still Keep fighting and killing people we would have the excuse to blast them off the planet and all problems are solved.

I hope you'll never grow brains.

When was the last time a terrorist group hit the wrong target?

Lebanon? :confused:

Hamas has got little to do with Lebanon...


I don't like either side either... The problem is the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.

Whoops, my bad, for some reason I automatically thought Lebanon despite the mention of Gaza Strip.:headbang:

I dunno, but you think they would admit to screwing up a target? Or would apologize for killing the wrong people? i do vaguely remember hearing that a terrorist group had killed someone, then it was discovered that they were really after someone entirely different and killed the wrong person by mistake.

Yeah, it would be nice if we could pull all the civvies who aren't interested in the fighting out, then let all those terrorist organizations and the IDF go at it. Winner is last man standing.

I hope you'll never grow brains.

I fell Offended. I know more of the region then you could ever learn in five life times due to your incompitance. My heritage is from the region and I understand the feelings of the palistiniens. They feel just like any american would feel if say some foreign gov. moved all of us into the worst sections of the country and gave the land back to the Indians. And thenthose same Indians took even more of that land. Just how would you feel then. Isriel Had lost its right to the lands long ago. They should have been thankfull That they got what they did but No they had to try and get more. They are the real terrorists of the region.

So your position is murder all Israeli government employees? All of them? Does that include all military personnel? The Romans would have loved you. So what is to stop the surrounding countries from rolling in after you get rid of the Israeli government and military and simply killing every man, woman and child of Israeli/Jewish ancestry?

And they shouldnt keep the property they won fair and square during the various wars they fought? Some of the land was taken during battles they didn't start you know, Should they have to give up something they essentially won?

You know, if there were no more Palestinians these things wouldn't happen. Just saying.

"I believe in a Palestinian homeland. In Syria" -Rich Vos

This was an attempt at humor, not a serious post. However, I do welcome flames, accusations of bigotry and general criticism of my intelligence, class or sense of humor.

I'm about fed up with the Middle East, period. I feel that the time is nearing for the absolute destruction of the Middle East terrorist states such as Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palastine, and Saudi Arabia.

I dunno, but you think they would admit to screwing up a target? Or would apologize for killing the wrong people? i do vaguely remember hearing that a terrorist group had killed someone, then it was discovered that they were really after someone entirely different and killed the wrong person by mistake.


Sounds like something the IRA did. "Oops. We meant to kill the soldier, but we got the policeman instead.... so it's all good."

You know, if there were no more Palestinians these things wouldn't happen. Just saying.

Far from it. Then it would just be claimed the Lebanese or Jordanians were encroaching. Or the Syrians, or the Egyptians, or any other neighbour they claim is causing them ill will and problems.

I love hearing people who are still stuck in the 13th century call other people a "disgrace to the modern world." If Western Union still sent telegrams, I'd wire Hamas: "Crusades ended 600 years ago. Stop. You won. Stop. Please Stop."

And even before the crusades the arab area was Christian, untill the arabs conquered it. As far as I know Israel's stated goal is to survive at all costs. Many of the Muslim Countries stated goal is the complete eradication of all Jewish people.... With these conflicing views, one of the parties has to give in for there to be paece. either the Muslems must aknowledge the Jewish peoples right to exist in Israel, Or the Jews need to decide they all want to die.... Even compromise in this sytuation is hard

Whoops, my bad, for some reason I automatically thought Lebanon despite the mention of Gaza Strip.:headbang:

I dunno, but you think they would admit to screwing up a target? Or would apologize for killing the wrong people? i do vaguely remember hearing that a terrorist group had killed someone, then it was discovered that they were really after someone entirely different and killed the wrong person by mistake.

Yeah, it would be nice if we could pull all the civvies who aren't interested in the fighting out, then let all those terrorist organizations and the IDF go at it. Winner is last man standing.

By deffinition Terrorists try to bring terror to the people, i.e. civilians

Many of the Muslim Countries stated goal is the complete eradication of all Jewish people....

Really? I can think of one (maybe two off my head). Enlighten me, and provide reputable links. Thank you.

Piekrom;11921022']I fell Offended. I know more of the region then you could ever learn in five life times due to your incompitance. My heritage is from the region and I understand the feelings of the palistiniens. They feel just like any american would feel if say some foreign gov. moved all of us into the worst sections of the country and gave the land back to the Indians. And thenthose same Indians took even more of that land. Just how would you feel then. Isriel Had lost its right to the lands long ago. They should have been thankfull That they got what they did but No they had to try and get more. They are the real terrorists of the region.


The palistinians (or cannanites) lost that land 4000 years ago. To the Egyptians. then it was palistinian, Jewish, babilonian, Jewish, Assirian, Jewish, Greek, Jewish, Roman, Jewish, Roman, Bizantine, Arab (not palistinian, yes they are seperate people groups) European, Arab, Eutopean, etc, Arab, Turkish, British, Jewish. the Palistinians haven't had a 'country' in 4000 years... except for the Philistines had one on and off for a few centuries. Infact the Palistinians didn't ave a hmeland intill Israel did

I say we evacuate and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :)

Really? I can think of one (maybe two off my head). Enlighten me, and provide reputable links. Thank you.

Iran for one
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/2170.cfm

Iran’s Call for the Destruction of Israel
Comment and analysis from Tehran, Jerusalem, London and Jidda
October 30, 2005

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran waves Wednesday during a conference in Tehran. (Photo: Behrouz Mehri / AFP-Getty Images)

At a conference in Tehran on Wednesday entitled “The World without Zionism,” President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be “wiped off the map.”

Egypt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm

though they've lightened up lately

Palistine
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part7.html
"All of Israel is Palestine"
Denying Israel’s Right to Exist and Anticipating its Destruction


Hamas, though not a country

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/03/25/Opinion/Destruction_of_Israel.shtml
Destruction of Israel remains goal of Hamas

Indonesia

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012958.php

Syria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
Hezbollah receives arms, training, and financial support from Iran, and from many other Arab sympathizers[9] and has "operated with Syria's blessing

Saudi Arabia
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5342


I can probably find more if u like

I say we evacuate and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :)

well, it is a rather crappy chunk of real estate.........

What would a peace treaty look like, assuming both sides wanted peace? Israel accepts the two-state solution; at least some Palestineans do, so that's probably the biggest feature of it. Working out the boundary would be problematic because of Israeli settlements, but could probably be worked out with the exception of Jerusalem. Israel can't take back all of the refugees, because that would make jews a minority in Israel; so the only solution Israel could accept to the "right of return" issue is to put the refugees in the West Bank or Gaza. On Jerusalem, I can't see either side willing to accept anything other than its own demand. The most sensible thing would be to give it to the UN to administer somehow: make the governing board all buddhists or something. But that seems like the issue that would kill the deal.

I have often wondered if Israel could not just hand most of the West Bank back to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. I suppose neither government would thank them for those problems.

Sadly, it seems that the only realistic chance for peace is very long term and involves enthic cleansing. Either the various Arab groups conquer Israel or Israel builds its wall and deports its native Arabs citizenry. Even then, the losers continue to wage a guerilla/terrorist war for decades. In the second case, if access to Jerusalem was allowed, the Arabs might eventually learn to live with it. However, the islamo-fascist terrorist groups would continue to use it as a rallying cry. So the world still loses -- it's just a matter of degree.

I wouldn't spend a dime of tax money or a moment of diplomacy supporting either side.

However, I would change our system of taxation to reduce the amount of money we send to the mid-east in exchange for oil, so that mid-east countries don't have piles of money to arm their terrorist buddies and fuel their nuclear ambitions.

well, it is a rather crappy chunk of real estate.........

It's the dry scaly scab on the scalp of the Earth. If Jerusalem and the surrounding crust was ever 'holy', that washed away in blood about a thousand years ago. *nod*

I say we evacuate and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :)

Since there's like a 99.999% chance Israel has nukes, and Iran has nukes, we may not have to wait to long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Since Israel has maby around 200,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons) By by mecca, and anything else that anoys them. if Israel is going to be whiped out, believe me they will nuke anyone not suporting them, and probably start a nucular winter, or some such.

I have often wondered if Israel could not just hand most of the West Bank back to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. I suppose neither government would thank them for those problems.

.

Jordan actually is today a close ally of Israel.

The golgan hights are a strategic point, and any time Syria had them, they bombed Israel, so Israel will not return that.

As for Jerusalem, Well I agree none of the parties will ever give that up.

It's the dry scaly scab on the scalp of the Earth. If Jerusalem and the surrounding crust was ever 'holy', that washed away in blood about a thousand years ago. *nod*

Well, it is the land crossing point between Africa, Asia, and Europe.
The valley of Meggido, or Armagedon, that runs orth and south in Israel was seen more battles per square mile than any other place on earth

http://www.answers.com/topic/nuclear-weapons-state

this is a fun one to look up.

-

I'm about fed up with the Middle East, period. I feel that the time is nearing for the absolute destruction of the Middle East terrorist states such as Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palastine, and Saudi Arabia.

There are so many things wrong with this, I'm not quite sure what to say. I think you should go to bed though, the big people are talking.

You know, if there were no more Palestinians these things wouldn't happen. Just saying.



I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.

Oh, you gotta love that, Israel screws up, offers assistance to the people who they hurt, so those people declare war over it? And Sovietstan calls the Israelis the animals? At least they are trying to make good for their wrongdoing, when was the last time a terrorist group apologized for hitting the wrong target?


not too long ago actually. Resistance fighters from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade killed man who they thought was Israeli in Jerusalem. Later it was discovered he was a Palestinian and they deeply apologised for their mistake and offered assistance.

should be noted its soviestan, not sovietstan. And I didnt say they were animals, I said many times they act as if they are.

It's the dry scaly scab on the scalp of the Earth. If Jerusalem and the surrounding crust was ever 'holy', that washed away in blood about a thousand years ago. *nod*

Indeed. Well said LG.

There are days your name really doesn't fit you you know.......:cool:

People have been fighting over that scab for what nearly 10 millenia? You'd think they'd get tired of it by now.

Far from it. Then it would just be claimed the Lebanese or Jordanians were encroaching. Or the Syrians, or the Egyptians, or any other neighbour they claim is causing them ill will and problems.

Well a lot of palestinians are really people from other nations that flooded the gaza and west bank, in order to make it look like there was a far better claim to land for the arabs. A friend told me a story about something like no 2 palestinians speak the same dialect, by that he meant there was a ton of outside influence on those areas. -shrugs- Oh well. I say we just let them all go at it...But not in war. I say in a pie eating contest. Who ever can eat more pies wins the entire middle east.

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.


Well considering Islams stated goal is universal Sariah Law (that's from the 'moderates') and Islamic rule of Earth

And That all Israel wants is to be levt alone, and has never activly prostolitized, and infact discourage conversions to Judaism

And that Israel has never tried to blow anyone up that wasn't first shooting at them,

I prefer Israel over Islam

Well a lot of palestinians are really people from other nations that flooded the gaza and west bank, in order to make it look like there was a far better claim to land for the arabs. A friend told me a story about something like no 2 palestinians speak the same dialect.

True, but 2 minor things, Pallestineans aren't Arab. And no, you are right, if Israel was gone the muslems would do what they where doing before. killing other muslems.

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.

Far better? You do realize if the jews were to be wiped off the earth, our economy would be fucked, with all the tech Israel has made, and how well Jews do with money and crap.

I prefer a nice smouldering crater where the Mid East is.

Well considering Islams stated goal is universal Sariah Law (that's from the 'moderates') and Islamic rule of Earth

Listen closely my friend. 1st Its Muslims ok, not "Islams". 2nd moderates don't claim to want Islamic rule of the Earth. It would be against Islam. It states in the Holy Qu'ran "to me, my religion, to you, yours"

And That all Israel wants is to be levt alone, and has never activly prostolitized, and infact discourage conversions to Judaism

Yeah Earth called, it wants you to come back to reality.

And that Israel has never tried to blow anyone up that wasn't first shooting at them,

This couldn't be farther from the truth, do some research.

I prefer Israel over Islam
congrats, not me.

I prefer a nice smouldering crater where the Mid East is.


Reall, people. The problem is innocent peole are being killed. You think the answer is to yust kill everyone equal??

What kind of solution is that? One that sounds like an austrian guy I one heard of. You know, the short guy with a funny little mustache and Black hair who liked to yell allot.

Far better? You do realize if the jews were to be wiped off the earth, our economy would be fucked, with all the tech Israel has made, and how well Jews do with money and crap.

Simply because jews are over represented in government and control of wealth doesnt mean we would collapse without them.

Listen closely my friend. 1st Its Muslims ok, not "Islams". 2nd moderates don't claim to want Islamic rule of the Earth. It would be against Islam. It states in the Holy Qu'ran "to me, my religion, to you, yours"


I think he meant "Islam's goal"

It's a vicious circle with a no-win outlook. The extremists on both sides feed each other with an ever-climbing scale of stupid and atrocious shit that gets each side worked up about crushing the other out of existence.

Listen closely my friend. 1st Its Muslims ok, not "Islams". 2nd moderates don't claim to want Islamic rule of the Earth. It would be against Islam. It states in the Holy Qu'ran "to me, my religion, to you, yours"

As far as 'moderates' go, check these out
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1548786,00.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001493.php

Yeah Earth called, it wants you to come back to reality.

That is hardly a valid argument

This couldn't be farther from the truth, do some research.

I have, have u? if so, cite sources with links

congrats, not me.


Check out the sources

Plus Islam is generally harsh to women

http://muslim-canada.org/pickthall.htm

Reall, people. The problem is innocent peole are being killed. You think the answer is to yust kill everyone equal??

What kind of solution is that? One that sounds like an austrian guy I one heard of. You know, the short guy with a funny little mustache and Black hair who liked to yell allot.

It's equal. A smouldering crater doesn't discriminate. It would be over the WHOLE MidEast region.

Plus Islam is generally harsh to women

http://muslim-canada.org/pickthall.htm

And Christianity and Judaism (and any other number of religions) aren't?

It's equal. A smouldering crater doesn't discriminate. It would be over the WHOLE MidEast region.

Followed by a smoking crater that used to be the global economy as oil prices hit bullshit levels when one of the biggest sources is no longer in existence.

the Koran teaches the faithful to fight non-Muslims “in the cause of Allah.” In fact, the term “Jihad” signifies the believers’ obligation to wage war. Nowhere in the Koran does Jihad refer to inner struggle. Let me quote from my Koran “Not equal are those Believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and persons.” (Surah 4:95.) The Koran instructs Muslims to “instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers” and to “smite above their necks.” Also, taking unbelievers captive or slaying them is authorized

Here are some more quotes from the islamic holy scriptures

Quran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

Quran 5:33-34 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.

Quran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number.


Quran 8:12 "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Followed by a smoking crater that used to be the global economy as oil prices hit bullshit levels when one of the biggest sources is no longer in existence.

And by then we'll have alternative fuels.

the Koran teaches the faithful to fight non-Muslims “in the cause of Allah.” In fact, the term “Jihad” signifies the believers’ obligation to wage war. Nowhere in the Koran does Jihad refer to inner struggle. Let me quote from my Koran “Not equal are those Believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and persons.” (Surah 4:95.) The Koran instructs Muslims to “instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers” and to “smite above their necks.” Also, taking unbelievers captive or slaying them is authorized

And if you expect everyone sane to adhere to the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran in modern times, you should also expect them to adhere to the literal interpretation of the Old and New Testaments without waver.

I dare any misguided person who thinks Islam is a religion of peace to pick up a english coppy (yes you can find them) of the Koran, and read it. It certainly opened my eyes when I first read it.

the Koran teaches the faithful to fight non-Muslims “in the cause of Allah.” In fact, the term “Jihad” signifies the believers’ obligation to wage war. Nowhere in the Koran does Jihad refer to inner struggle. Let me quote from my Koran “Not equal are those Believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and persons.” (Surah 4:95.) The Koran instructs Muslims to “instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers” and to “smite above their necks.” Also, taking unbelievers captive or slaying them is authorized

Let me quote from mine.

25:63:

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant."

5:69 Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

5:82. " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

[4:90] Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.


Quran 4:94:

. . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

And if you expect everyone sane to adhere to the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran in modern times, you should also expect them to adhere to the literal interpretation of the Old and New Testaments without waver.


Christans (with some exceptions) don't generally terror bomb people.

Many Muslems do.

Plus the New testament, which the Christians follow is if anything pacifistic.

It was the Jewish Old Testament that was violent, and even that was only permitted for a short time. after that that the comand was given to care for the foreigner

It does... And it kinda is...

But this Hamas-angle is new. Vocally threatening to attack US targets... it can't end well.

Oh, and Abbas apparently has decleared that Israel by this act has destroyed any last possibility for peace.

But then another wing of Hamas says they aren't going to target Americans.

Infighting amoung Hamas?

Let me quote from mine.

25:63:

And acording to any history book we know that before Muhamed started to kill all that woulden't convert, he first tried to unify Christianity, Judaism and Islam. It was later in his live he turned increasingly to violence.

I dare any misguided person who thinks Christianity is a religion of peace to pick up a english coppy (yes you can find them) of the Bible, and read it. It certainly opened my eyes when I first read it.

There we go:)


Effectively Islam and Christianity don't differ hugely in their teachings, its just interpretations that vary. In short, people are to blame (as usual):)

There we go:)


Effectively Islam and Christianity don't differ hugely in their teachings, its just interpretations that vary. In short, people are to blame (as usual):)

While I disagree with the statement that they don't differ huegly (though they differ less then some)
I do agree that the problem is humans

The earlier parts of the Koran are considered less authoratative than the later ones. (i.e. the newer it is, the more authoratative) Generally the 'tolerance' is earlier, and the violence in the later.

Infighting amoung Hamas?
Gee, ya think?

Turning the Middle East into a giant crater won't work either. The Jews will occupy the part of the crater that used to be Israel, remaining Muslims will occupy the rest, and we'll start fighting again.

What might work would be a common enemy. Any major nations willing to start exterminating Jews and Muslims (in gas chambers for maximum effect) and then get its butt kicked by the United Israeli-Arab Army Of Doom?

The earlier parts of the Koran are considered less authoratative than the later ones. (i.e. the newer it is, the more authoratative) Generally the 'tolerance' is earlier, and the violence in the later.

Have you got a source for that? I never heard about scholars ranking the word of god. The suras are organized by length, not in a canonical fashion. The long ones being in the front, with the shorter ones being in the back.

Here are some more quotes from the islamic holy scriptures
Which you have selectively taken grossly out of context to push the jewish/Israeli agenda, no surprise there.

Quran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.
What left out here is "when you meet the unbelievers in regular battle" thats a lot different than in Jihad. Many of the 1st passages in ch. 47 are guides in battle. Its not a call to go out and kill the unbelievers.

Quran 5:33-34 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
you didn't even mention v. 34. Qu'ran 5:34 Which states "Different, however, is the case of those(criminals) who turn with repentance before you overpower them." Also its not talking about unbelievers, its talking about criminals and forgivness of those criminals.

Quran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number.

no, what it says is "dont take those particular type of Jews and Christians." Meaning be wary of bad of criminal jews and Christians as they will lead you away from Allah.

Quran 8:12 "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Qu'ran 8:7 " when Allah promised you victory over one of the two enemy parties" Again it is talking about a certain battle, in this case the Makkan Army and a carvan from Syria being the two parties refered to.

I dare any misguided person who thinks Islam is a religion of peace to pick up a english coppy (yes you can find them) of the Koran, and read it. It certainly opened my eyes when I first read it.

read it again, you read in way that you were looking to villify Muslims.

Have you got a source for that? I never heard about scholars ranking the word of god. The suras are organized by length, not in a canonical fashion. The long ones being in the front, with the shorter ones being in the back.

Check this out
http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/our_reader_toot.html

"And Islamic scholars says that the later parts of the Koran override the earlier parts."

Check this out
http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/our_reader_toot.html

"And Islamic scholars says that the later parts of the Koran override the earlier parts."

Im not so sure how valid that source is.

read it again, you read in way that you were looking to villify Muslims.

By the way I am enjoying this. It's nice to debate with someone who doesn't swear allot.

However, I don't need to villify Muslems. They do it themselves. When people have parades because two towers are blown up, it's pretty hard to see the 'peacefull' side of things.

The same could be said for the crusades. but that was when there was no seperation of church and state in Christianity.

Islam still does not have seperation of church and state in most Islamic nations. Typically it is a capital offence to decide not to be muslem

Im not so sure how valid that source is.

http://naraka.blogspot.com/2006/02/parts-of-koran-are-good-but.html

Try this one then

Plus Islam is generally harsh to women

http://muslim-canada.org/pickthall.htm
if you knew anything about Islam you would know that before it came to be women were treated far worse than afterwards. Islam established that women have rights to property at least somewhat and many other things.

Piekrom;11921022']I fell Offended. I know more of the region then you could ever learn in five life times due to your incompitance. My heritage is from the region and I understand the feelings of the palistiniens. They feel just like any american would feel if say some foreign gov. moved all of us into the worst sections of the country and gave the land back to the Indians. And thenthose same Indians took even more of that land. Just how would you feel then. Isriel Had lost its right to the lands long ago. They should have been thankfull That they got what they did but No they had to try and get more. They are the real terrorists of the region.

1. The Jews accepted the original partition, the Palestinans did not
2. Israel was the one who was invaded in 1948, 1967, 1973 etc. (and dont claim 'Israel fired the first shot' in 1967. Egypt blockaded Israel's only trade route, thats a more than acceptable Cassius Belli. Not to mention the massive Egyptian military build up on the borders)
3. Israel offered the West Bank and Gaza back in 2000, along with East Jerusalem. Yasser Ararfat did not accept because it demanded that the refugees give up the right to return. Basicly Arrafat wanted Israel to make all concessions without making any himself

Israel will happyly give up the West Bank and Gaza, when it is safe to do so. Right not it isn't. All it will do is create another Arab Israel-hating state. Israel has enough of those to deal with already

if you knew anything about Islam you would know that before it came to be women were treated far worse than afterwards. Islam established that women have rights to property at least somewhat and many other things.

But it punishes women for men's inability to control their own thoughts via the veil and the hijab. Why should women have to wear that when it is the men who are at fault (IE unable to control their thoughts)

But it punishes women for men's inability to control their own thoughts via the veil and the hijab. Why should women have to wear that when it is the men who are at fault (IE unable to control their thoughts)

no. Women don't wear those because of the thoughts of men. They are worn as a sign of modesty. Both Muslim women AND men should be modest in dress.

if you knew anything about Islam you would know that before it came to be women were treated far worse than afterwards. Islam established that women have rights to property at least somewhat and many other things.


Still less than most of the remaining world. Actually before Islam there where many female religious leaders in the areas that Islam conquered.

I'll give this: If Islam is a religion of peace, and if it wants peace, and if global domination is not the goal, then why did the Muslems jihad all the way into Europe? Why didn't they stay where they where? Why where most of their missionary moves also violent military campains? And why do so many Muslems in the middle east resort to violence?

I supose we have often done the same in the west (WWI and II, etc) But we atleast recognise it as wrong, and reconcile. In the middle east, they hold grudges for centuries

1.3. Israel offered the West Bank and Gaza back in 2000, along with East Jerusalem. Yasser Ararfat did not accept because it demanded that the refugees give up the right to return. Basicly Arrafat wanted Israel to make all concessions without making any himself


Did they actually offer back east Jerusalem?
Can u verify?

no. Women don't wear those because of the thoughts of men. They are worn as a sign of modesty. Both Muslim women AND men should be modest in dress.


In traditional Islamic law, rape cannot be proven unless four males testify as witnesses (Sura 24:4 and 24:13).

And the Koran, permits Muslim men to enslave - and have sexual relations with - the women of unbelievers captured in the spoils of war (Sura 4:23-24).

In traditional Islamic law, rape cannot be proven unless four males testify as witnesses (Sura 24:4 and 24:13).

Don't Mistake Islamic law for the Qu'ran.

I'll give this: If Islam is a religion of peace, and if it wants peace, and if global domination is not the goal, then why did the Muslems jihad all the way into Europe? Why didn't they stay where they where? Why where most of their missionary moves also violent military campains? And why do so many Muslems in the middle east resort to violence?

I supose we have often done the same in the west (WWI and II, etc) But we atleast recognise it as wrong, and reconcile. In the middle east, they hold grudges for centuries

You ignore the economic and social conditions that bring those actions. It has little to do with the faith.

Did they actually offer back east Jerusalem?
Can u verify?

They were given soveringty up to Temple mount, where they were given custodialship, which they did not accept, they wanted full soverignty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/852834.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/852726.stm

Israel offered: Ehud Barak, and the US bridging proposal, are believed to have offered Palestinian municipal control of some far-flung areas of East Jerusalem, and access by underground tunnel to the Al-Aqsa mosque, the third holiest site in Islam

For his part, Ehud Barak showed he has guts but is a poor politician. Even Palestinians privately admit that no Israeli prime minister has ever gone so far towards meeting their demands.

Whether bravely or (as his critics allege) recklessly, Barak has pushed the limits of the possible - gambling that he could reverse his political fortunes at home by bringing back a comprehensive peace deal, and then winning convincing endorsement for it in a popular referendum.

For the moment, that gamble has not paid off. But even Barak's enemies grudgingly admit he has shown vigour and single-mindedness.


http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/telhami/CHjanuary2001.htm

First, why was President Clinton so frustrated with Yasir Arafat? Objectively, both Arafat and Barak made remarkable concessions at Camp David. Barak moved beyond any previous Israeli prime minister in agreeing to eventually withdraw from 90 percent of the West Bank and in offering Palestinians control of some East Jerusalem neighborhoods.


East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital: The capital of the Palestinian state to be East Jerusalem, which would be a physically open but politically redivided city serving as the capital of both Israel and the Palestinian state

Don't Mistake Islamic law for the Qu'ran.

Iran is under Islamic law

Under Irans constitutional system, the Quran is the constitution

Ergo it can be deduced that the Qu'ran supports what the Islamic law in this case is saying

Iran is under Islamic law

Under Irans constitutional system, the Quran is the constitution

Ergo it can be deduced that the Qu'ran supports what the Islamic law in this case is saying

Thats like saying since N. Korea is officially the democratic people's republic or that the USSR which had mentions of democracy in its constitution that they are/were democracies.

Indeed. Well said LG.

There are days your name really doesn't fit you you know.......:cool:

Thanks. I think the wit my mind brings to bear on my insanities makes me all the more interesting. :)

People have been fighting over that scab for what nearly 10 millenia? You'd think they'd get tired of it by now.

It's become a lifestyle. It's all they're good at now. *nod*

Sounds like something the IRA did. "Oops. We meant to kill the soldier, but we got the policeman instead.... so it's all good.".

Actually there were a few. The "thought the Nuns were RUC" being a classic for grim humour, when they managed to blow two of them up.

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.


No, it would not. Seriously, get a fucking grip.

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.

With people like you, who needs Nazis?

no. Women don't wear those because of the thoughts of men. They are worn as a sign of modesty. Both Muslim women AND men should be modest in dress.

If its about modesty and the Quran treets both men and women equally then tell me the following

1. Is it not possible, in the Qu'ran's view, for a women to dress modestly without resorting to the Hijab? I can think of any number of ways to dress modestly for women other than that.
2. If both men and women must dress modestly then why is it that womens dress code is far more restricted to the hijab where as men can wear whatever they want it seems (providing its modest)?
3. How exactly is modesty defined for these purposes?

Thats like saying since N. Korea is officially the democratic people's republic or that the USSR which had mentions of democracy in its constitution that they are/were democracies.

No, it isnt

The constitution of Iran IS the Qu'ran. If you dont believe me, look it up yourself

This isn't a mere ceremonial title, that is what it actually is.

And Christianity and Judaism (and any other number of religions) aren't?

Christianity doesnt demand that women carry themselves any diffrently to men with regard to clothing

Islam demands that women clothe themselves in a particular way because (as they see it) men cannot control their thoughts so women have to wear that because of the fault of the men

-snip- Bunch of News articles about the destruction of Israel -snip-

I can probably find more if u like

Good. good.

Your claim was that they wanted to kill all Jews. Jews =/= Israel. Jews =/= Zionism.

All the articles you mentioned were about Islamic opposition to Israel and Zionism - not opposition to Jews.

Can you find some articles for us to prove your claim that they want to kill all Jews?

Christianity doesnt demand that women carry themselves any diffrently to men with regard to clothing

Islam demands that women clothe themselves in a particular way because (as they see it) men cannot control their thoughts so women have to wear that because of the fault of the men
Yep. 'aint no branch of christianity that requires women to dress in certain ways.

And never has.

Women in christian countries have been allowed to wear miniskirts for hundreds of years without fear of people making severe judgements on them and fear of punishment.

Oh yes.

Well a lot of palestinians are really people from other nations that flooded the gaza and west bank, in order to make it look like there was a far better claim to land for the arabs..

Not an iota of truth. If they were that organised, they never woiuld have been expelled in the first place. And why would they flood Gaza and the West Bank when the place wasn't even under Israeli occupation until 1967?


And That all Israel wants is to be levt alone, and has never activly prostolitized, and infact discourage conversions to Judaism..

Why are they building colonies in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem then?


But then another wing of Hamas says they aren't going to target Americans.

Infighting amoung Hamas?..

Still awaiting your refutation of the figure of 7% for land owned by settlers in 1946. You weren't making it up when you said you had contradictory data, were you?

When people have parades because two towers are blown up, it's pretty hard to see the 'peacefull' side of things.

There was no parade. However having been fucked over by the Americans for 40 odd years, its hardly suprising if some though the chickens had come home to roost.


3. Israel offered the West Bank and Gaza back in 2000, along with East Jerusalem. Yasser Ararfat did not accept because it demanded that the refugees give up the right to return. Basicly Arrafat wanted Israel to make all concessions without making any himself.

They did not offer back the territories, and the East Jerusalem proposal was unworkable. It was the Israelis who left the last negotiations in Taba in 2003.


Israel will happyly give up the West Bank and Gaza, when it is safe to do so.
.

Then why is it building civillian colonies in the West bank?

But then another wing of Hamas says they aren't going to target Americans.

Infighting amoung Hamas?..

I suspect that the political wing and the military wing of Hamas doesn't communicate all that well... I just hope that the political wing has enough influence to stop anything like that from happening - the consequences would be dire indeed if anything like an operation against US targets were to be undertaken.

And Christianity and Judaism (and any other number of religions) aren't?


Last I saw Christians and Jews wheren't beating women for not wearing burkas. Christianity and Jewdaism have long grown out of those things. Infact the womans rights movement in the late 1800's and early 1900's came from the Christian church. I haven't seen that from islamic nations.

[QUOTE=Becket court;11922206]They were given soveringty up to Temple mount, where they were given custodialship, which they did not accept, they wanted full soverignty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/852834.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/852726.stm

QUOTE]

cool. thanks for the refferance.

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.

How so? The Jews actually invent new products and don't insist that everyone's freedom of speech be silenced out of defference to their religion. They're a modern and civilized people. many Muslims are too, but a shitload aren't.

Simply because jews are over represented in government and control of wealth doesnt mean we would collapse without them.
In what government on earth are Jews overrepresented? You're just a fucking ignorant antisemite.

Good. good.

Your claim was that they wanted to kill all Jews. Jews =/= Israel. Jews =/= Zionism.

All the articles you mentioned were about Islamic opposition to Israel and Zionism - not opposition to Jews.

Can you find some articles for us to prove your claim that they want to kill all Jews?

Palestine for one
http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/Incitement_to_Kill_all_the_Jews.asp

Hezbolla
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/hezbollahs-goal-going-_b_26983.html

Iran
http://miscellog.blogspot.com/2005/12/letter-to-president-of-iran.html
http://www.americandaily.com/article/9887

In what government on earth are Jews overrepresented? You're just a fucking ignorant antisemite. I hope your family dies in an al qaeda bombing.


Perhaps a bit harsh. While I agree that Jews have been put down for no reason, I don't want ANYONE blown up.

if you knew anything about Islam you would know that before it came to be women were treated far worse than afterwards. Islam established that women have rights to property at least somewhat and many other things.

let me translate: We now beat women only 75% as hard.... great logic

Women are treated better under Islam. So how tod Arabs, Pallestinias, etc treat women before???

Ya right. Women in now Islamic countries use to run the countries, use to be rulers. I doubt that they are treated better now.

If they are, that's really sad. really really sad
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/ugly_women.htm

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/SuzanneFields/2006/03/13/failing_women_of_the_third_world

first, I really sorry for the horrible accident. it is bad enough without the anti-zionist propoganda which claim it wasn't an accident.
as israeli, I can't see how those actions in gaza helped to the main goals which are stoppage of the palastinian missle launching, and the releasement of the soldier Gil'ad Shalit. I hope there are serious negotiation about those things, although it would cost us high.

You know, if there were no more Palestinians these things wouldn't happen. Just saying. lets offer the Rhode Island. and lets give them the same Aid we've given the Jews.

maybe thei'll accept.

or were you talking about genocide?

I say the same things, only I say it about the Israelis. Afterall it would be far easier and far better for the world if the Jews die out than the Muslims.

Yes Soviestan, let's go ahead and judge right away.

I'm (ex-)Jewish and am strongly against the state of Israel; but OBVIOUSLY it'd be good for me to die because of the irresponsible nature of a country that doesn't represent me [not that death should be wished on anyone mind you].

Gosh, your ideas are so clever. Shall I commit suicide now to aid your ingenious cause?

Hell Soviestan, let's kill everyone off and leave you alive. I mean, you are truly the light in this tunnel of darkness.

All hail! All hail!

The Jews actually invent new products ... you saying we allow the Jews to murder (claiming it was collateral/accident/whatever) ten Palestinean/Lebanese Child for every new product?

lets offer the Rhode Island. and lets give them the same Aid we've given the Jews.

maybe thei'll accept.

or were you talking about genocide?

the universal Aid the palastinians get is way more than the one USA gave to israel. the one israel get is also on the same scale as the american aid to most of the moderate states in the middle east or other countries which get aid from them.

lets offer the Rhode Island. and lets give them the same Aid we've given the Jews.

maybe thei'll accept.

or were you talking about genocide?

I'd rather give them Arizona. It's better because it gives the Palestinians more land and keeps them far away from me. I wouldn't want them within just a few hundred miles of where I live.

you saying we allow them to murder (claiming it was collateral/accident/whatever) ten Palestinean/Lebanese Child for every new product?

I'm saying that if we were to decide to kill of all the Arabs or all the Jews I'd say kill the Arabs. Now if you want to talk about murder, the Palestinians are the ones who commit murder most frequently by targeting civilians. Murder and accidental death are two very different things. I wouldn't expect you to know that though.

the Aid the palastinians get is way more than the one USA gave to israel. WUAHAHAHAHA..

Thanks.. I needed a good laugh.

WUAHAHAHAHA..

Thanks.. I needed a good laugh.

Why don't you prove him wrong? Can't? Ok.

I'd rather give them Arizona. Arizona is too big..

It should be about the Size of Israel.

and preferably with a harbor (sea acces).

Arizona is too big..

It should be about the Size of Israel.

and preferably with a harbor (sea acces).

Well it shouldn't be anywhere near me. Palestinians have proven time and time again that they're bad neighbors.

I'm saying that if we were to decide to kill of all the Arabs or all the Jews I'd say kill the Arabs. are you planing to reuse the Nazi cremation methods?

are you planing to reuse the Nazi cremation methods?

It was a response to one of your fellow nazis' hypothetical situations. Why don't you be a good little antisemite and go back and read what I was responding to.

are you planing to reuse the Nazi cremation methods?
it was hyporetical question. can't you search for REAL argument instead of argueing for death stuff which put out of contest.

I just forgot who I am talking about. shouldn't be surprise.

it was hyporetical question. can't you search for REAL argument instead of argueing for death stuff which put out of contest.

I just forgot who I am talking about. shouldn't be surprise.

I'll bet he doesn't talk to people that way in real life. Unless he's got a really good dental plan.

it was hyporetical question.a question??

It is not a question.. its actually (a clear cut statement of) DCD's personal opinion.

here read it again:
I'd say kill (all the) the Arabs.

I do not understand your answer.. So I will repost my question:

are you planing to reuse the Nazi cremation methods?

Is it really wise for your parents to let you use the internet unsupervised?

a question??

It is not a question.. its actually (a clear cut statement of) DCD's personal opinion.

here read it again:

if you weren't such igorant, you would see the question he reply to.
he even linked to it in the other thread.

Iran for one
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/2170.cfm

Iran’s Call for the Destruction of Israel
Comment and analysis from Tehran, Jerusalem, London and Jidda
October 30, 2005

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran waves Wednesday during a conference in Tehran. (Photo: Behrouz Mehri / AFP-Getty Images)

At a conference in Tehran on Wednesday entitled “The World without Zionism,” President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be “wiped off the map.”

Egypt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm

though they've lightened up lately

Palistine
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part7.html
"All of Israel is Palestine"
Denying Israel’s Right to Exist and Anticipating its Destruction


Hamas, though not a country

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/03/25/Opinion/Destruction_of_Israel.shtml
Destruction of Israel remains goal of Hamas

Indonesia

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012958.php

Syria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
Hezbollah receives arms, training, and financial support from Iran, and from many other Arab sympathizers[9] and has "operated with Syria's blessing

Saudi Arabia
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5342


I can probably find more if u like

I know this is now probably an old post but hey, I just finished work.

See the word 'reputable' I used? That knocks out "jihadwatch" (about as accurate as "Jew watch")

Iran was the one I was talking about.

An Egypt link from 1967? Shit, that's current. So that's one to knock off the claim that they want the complete eradication of the Jewish people.
Palestine is not a country.
Hamas is not a country.
Indonesia via 'jihadwatch'? Like I said, about as reliable as "Jew Watch" or "Loose Change".
Hezb'allah/Syria? Well there's a claim. Which one? Because Hezb'allah are not a country.
Your link on Saudi Arabia only threw up a Walt/Mearsheimer debate and nothing on a state official policy to "eradicate the Jews".

So, after all that we're back to.... Iran. Like I said - one.

Anything else?

After reading this thread, I can see why Soviestan is converting to Islam. He'll fit right in with the extreme Mullahs in their calls for another Holocaust.

a question??

It is not a question.. its actually (a clear cut statement of) DCD's personal opinion.

here read it again:

Why did you edit the quote OD? Is it because then it doesn't say what you want it to say?

It is not a question.. its actually (a clear cut statement of) DCD's personal opinion.

What's clear-cut about it is that you chose to selectively edit it to turn it into something it isn't.

Let's make that an Official Warning for flamebaiting. You might have gotten off lighter, but given your post history, you're LONG overdue for warning.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

WUAHAHAHAHA..

Thanks.. I needed a good laugh.

Actually most of palistines aid comes from Israel. that was the big kurfuffle a while ago, when the extremists took palestine. Israel said they woulden't give aid to a party dedicated to the erradication of Israel (go figure). yust goes to show how bias the Jews are.... Won't give aid to people trying to destroy their nation, and attacking them.

I know this is now probably an old post but hey, I just finished work.

See the word 'reputable' I used? That knocks out "jihadwatch" (about as accurate as "Jew watch")

Iran was the one I was talking about.

An Egypt link from 1967? Shit, that's current. So that's one to knock off the claim that they want the complete eradication of the Jewish people.
Palestine is not a country.
Hamas is not a country.
Indonesia via 'jihadwatch'? Like I said, about as reliable as "Jew Watch" or "Loose Change".
Hezb'allah/Syria? Well there's a claim. Which one? Because Hezb'allah are not a country.
Your link on Saudi Arabia only threw up a Walt/Mearsheimer debate and nothing on a state official policy to "eradicate the Jews".

So, after all that we're back to.... Iran. Like I said - one.

Anything else?


Like I said Hamas is not a country (unless you consider them to run Lebanon, which noone really runs)

And if you look, y post states that the Egypt thing was an old thing , and that they've lighened up allot lately

See the word 'reputable' I used? That knocks out "jihadwatch" (about as accurate as "Jew watch")



Anything else?

If you'r looking for'occicial sites, bere's some from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/581304.stm

And hy the Way, even though Hamas is not a country it is running palestine, as the ruling party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6073366.stm

In Egypt (one of Israel's 'alies') most people see israel as theyr #1 enemy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6107160.stm

From CBS
Plus Hamas is headquarterd in Syria, nder the governments protection
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/08/world/main2161580.shtml


and i quote from the wall street journal : "Meanwhile, Hezbollah and Iran--which provides this terrorist group with arms, direction and over $100 million a year--are in continual violation of international law. Their calls for Israel's destruction violate the international genocide treaty's prohibition of "direct and public incitement to commit genocide." Iran's effort to develop a nuclear arsenal that could obliterate Israel, or deter its responses to future Hezbollah attacks, violates the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iranian (and Syrian) support for Hezbollah violates U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373, requiring states to "refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008756

And some Jewish sects as well
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=20795&sec=35&cont=4

See the word 'reputable' I used? That knocks out "jihadwatch" (about as accurate as "Jew watch")



Anything else?

If you'r looking for official sites, here's some from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/581304.stm

And by the Way, even though Hamas is not a country it is running palestine, as the ruling party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6073366.stm

In Egypt (one of Israel's 'alies') most people see israel as the #1 enemy of Egypt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6107160.stm

From CBS
Plus Hamas is headquarterd in Syria, nder the governments protection
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/08/world/main2161580.shtml


and i quote from the wall street journal : "Meanwhile, Hezbollah and Iran--which provides this terrorist group with arms, direction and over $100 million a year--are in continual violation of international law. Their calls for Israel's destruction violate the international genocide treaty's prohibition of "direct and public incitement to commit genocide." Iran's effort to develop a nuclear arsenal that could obliterate Israel, or deter its responses to future Hezbollah attacks, violates the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iranian (and Syrian) support for Hezbollah violates U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373, requiring states to "refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008756

And some Jewish sects as well
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=20795&sec=35&cont=4

Israel is a good ethical God fearing country, that wouldnt ever intentionally hurt civilians, it may attack terrroists cowardly hiding near civilians.

Israel is a good ethical God fearing country, that wouldnt ever intentionally hurt civilians, it may attack terrroists cowardly hiding near civilians.

Hehehehe....O you funny, funny man...

If you'r looking for official sites, here's some from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/581304.stm
"Burkina courts acquits activists"

Ok.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6073366.stm
"Tyres burnt in Gaza pay protest"
Ok.... again not really seeing how this relates to the 'stated goal of many Muslim countries' to eradicate the Jewish people.


In Egypt (one of Israel's 'alies') most people see israel as the #1 enemy of Egypt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6107160.stm

"The pollsters asked a random selection of 1,000 Egyptian adults their attitudes to different countries."
Yup, sounds like official Government policy alright. Definitely not the opinions of ordinary randomnly selected people.

From CBS
Plus Hamas is headquarterd in Syria, nder the governments protection
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/08/world/main2161580.shtml
Sinn Fein has headquarters in Dublin, Ireland and is afforded protection by the Government just like with all other political parties. What's your point?

and i quote from the wall street journal : "Meanwhile, Hezbollah and Iran--which provides this terrorist group with arms, direction and over $100 million a year--are in continual violation of international law. Their calls for Israel's destruction violate the international genocide treaty's prohibition of "direct and public incitement to commit genocide." Iran's effort to develop a nuclear arsenal that could obliterate Israel, or deter its responses to future Hezbollah attacks, violates the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iranian (and Syrian) support for Hezbollah violates U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373, requiring states to "refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008756
Yes I know who Hezb'allah are. They're a group. Not a Muslim country.

Iran? Yes, I think we established that already.


And some Jewish sects as well
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=20795&sec=35&cont=4

Again though, not a country despite your original claim. (Batshit insane as they may be)
Many of the Muslim Countries stated goal is the complete eradication of all Jewish people....

If you'r looking for official sites, here's some from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/581304.stm
Where is the relevence to your point in a story about a Court ruling in Burkina Faso?

And by the Way, even though Hamas is not a country it is running palestine, as the ruling party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6073366.stm
We all knew that, his point was that Palestine was not a country. And again, what does "Tyre" burning have to do with Muslims wanting Israel's destruction?

In Egypt (one of Israel's 'alies') most people see israel as the #1 enemy of Egypt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6107160.stm
Not surprising, how many wars has Israel gotten into with Egypt?

With people like you, who needs Nazis?

*times called on these forums 999,999* until now! congrats this is the 1,000,000 time I've been called nazi. You win a prize:rolleyes: seriously thats I very old attack

*times called on these forums 999,999* until now! congrats this is the 1,000,000 time I've been called nazi. You win a prize:rolleyes: seriously thats I very old attack

How would you like it if Hitler killed you?

:D

*times called on these forums 999,999* until now! congrats this is the 1,000,000 time I've been called nazi. You win a prize:rolleyes: seriously thats I very old attack

If it quacks like a nazi...

*times called on these forums 999,999* until now! congrats this is the 1,000,000 time I've been called nazi. You win a prize:rolleyes: seriously thats I very old attack

Hey, at least you get to wear the sharp uniform. :)

In what government on earth are Jews overrepresented? You're just a fucking ignorant antisemite.

the US. they are about .5% of the population yet have a disportional number of congressmen and women. There are more Muslims in America than jews and yet there is only 1 Muslim member of congress and he was elected tues.

the US. they are about .5% of the population yet have a disportional number of congressmen and women. There are more Muslims in America than jews and yet there is only 1 Muslim member of congress and he was elected tues.

OK, first of all congressmen are elected by district, not nationally. Jews make up a much larger precentage of certain districts in places like New Jersey, New York city, and Los Angeles. Your assertion that they're overrepresented in government is just plain wrong.

Secondly, maybe Muslims are underrepresented, but that doesn't have any bearing on Jews.

If its about modesty and the Quran treets both men and women equally then tell me the following

1. Is it not possible, in the Qu'ran's view, for a women to dress modestly without resorting to the Hijab? I can think of any number of ways to dress modestly for women other than that.

Men cover their hair as well, as is common in places like Saudi Arabia. This is not uncommon in religion. In some places its common for jewish women to cover their hair as well.

2. If both men and women must dress modestly then why is it that womens dress code is far more restricted to the hijab where as men can wear whatever they want it seems (providing its modest)?
no, men can not wear whatever they choose. Dress in the Muslim world varies as well. For example the Queen of Jordan, a Palestinian and a Muslim does not wear any veil.

3. How exactly is modesty defined for these purposes?
it varies.

let me translate: We now beat women only 75% as hard.... great logic

Women are treated better under Islam. So how tod Arabs, Pallestinias, etc treat women before???

Ya right. Women in now Islamic countries use to run the countries, use to be rulers. I doubt that they are treated better now.

If they are, that's really sad. really really sad
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/ugly_women.htm

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/SuzanneFields/2006/03/13/failing_women_of_the_third_world

Before women had no say as to who they married, if they could get divorced and werent even allowed to keep their money. Islam changed all of this from the pagan period before Islam.

After reading this thread, I can see why Soviestan is converting to Islam. He'll fit right in with the extreme Mullahs in their calls for another Holocaust.

:rolleyes:

Now, on topic again:

Technical failure is the official cause of these deaths.

Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has said an army artillery barrage that killed 18 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was the result of a "technical failure".

He said troops had targeted an orange grove from which rockets had been fired on Wednesday, but instead hit homes in the northern town of Beit Hanoun.

The victims, including several children and women, were buried in Beit Hanoun on Thursday amid emotional scenes.

Palestinian officials described the killings as a massacre.

"I'm very uncomfortable with this event. I'm very distressed," Mr Olmert was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.

"I checked it and I verified it. This is not the policy," he said.

But military operations against suspected Palestinian militants would continue, he added, admitting that further mistakes "may happen".

Mr Olmert repeated recent offers to hold talks with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.
Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6134412.stm)

Maybe some good can come of this... if they start talking again.


By the way:
GAZA DEAD SINCE END OF JUNE
Total: 247 fatalities
155 civilian deaths
57 deaths of children
996 wounded, including 337 children (34%)
Source: Physicians for Human Rights (28 June to 27 Oct)

OK, first of all congressmen are elected by district, not nationally. Jews make up a much larger precentage of certain districts in places like New Jersey, New York city, and Los Angeles. Your assertion that they're overrepresented in government is just plain wrong.

Secondly, maybe Muslims are underrepresented, but that doesn't have any bearing on Jews.

Then why are there so many Jewish senators? They arent elected by districts. And what about all the jews that have been in the ZOG cabinets throughout the years that encourage wars against Muslims and others including kissinger and wolfitez(sp?)

How would you like it if Hitler killed you?

:D

Hitler wouldn't kill me:)

Now, on topic again:

Technical failure is the official cause of these deaths.


Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6134412.stm)

Maybe some good can come of this... if they start talking again.


By the way:

Probably true.

Although I doubt the "Sorry, oh but we're not going to stop and/or change our methods" answer will change any opinions.

Everything changes, everything stays the same.

Then why are there so many Jewish senators? They arent elected by districts. And what about all the jews that have been in the ZOG cabinets throughout the years that encourage wars against Muslims and others including kissinger and wolfitez(sp?)

Senators like Joe Lieberman come from places like Connecticut, where there are a decent amount of Jews. They're elected by state and some states have a good percentage of Jews. Florida and New Jersey come to mind, yet we don't have any Jewish senators from those states. I guess it's a way of covering up the scary conspiracy, right?

And as for your use of ZOG, only neo nazis use that term. Once again you prove that you're a fucking scumbag nazi.

let me translate: We now beat women only 75% as hard.... great logic

Women are treated better under Islam. So how tod Arabs, Pallestinias, etc treat women before???

Ya right. Women in now Islamic countries use to run the countries, use to be rulers. I doubt that they are treated better now.

If they are, that's really sad. really really sad
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/ugly_women.htm

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/SuzanneFields/2006/03/13/failing_women_of_the_third_world

What countries did women use to run? I'm very curious as to what you mean...

And from your link:
The issue is not Islam - the world's fastest growing religion - but extremist fundamentalism, which uses Islam as a billy club. "In Islam, the communion is direct between God and the individual," says Benazir Bhutto, Prime Minister of Pakistan. "But throughout the Muslim world, you have clerics saying that Muslims don't know what's good for them. They say a woman has to look down at the floor. But the Prophet said the best veils is the veil in the eyes."

According to Fatima Mernissi, a Koranic scholar and Moroccan sociologist specialising in women's issues and Islam, the Prophet Mohammed revolutionized life for women in the 7th century - granting them access to the mosque, full participation in public affairs and the right to inherit property. As for veiling, the Koran makes no requirement that women veil their faces, but suggests modesty for both men and women.

The success of fundamentalism, says Bhutto, is twofold. First, it springs from the "search for identity in an increasingly global village where all the messages from the Christian West. It is a reaction to preserve one's culture when other cultures have dominance." Second, she says, it was created to keep communists at bay. "Political parties largely banned," she says. "The mosque was allowed to become a place where people could gather, and the clerics became very powerful. They started a new doctrine, where they knew what was best for everybody else."

"Islamic fundamentalism is a political movement, not a religious movement," Helie-Lucas declares. "It's the extreme right wing using religion as a cover. It is the fascism of today."

Interesting... And the bolded part does indeed suggest that Islam was an improvement for the women, does it not?

Probably true.

Although I doubt the "Sorry, oh but we're not going to stop and/or change our methods" answer will change any opinions.

Everything changes, everything stays the same.

Yeah... I think you're right. The quick apologies were the right thing to do, but in the end I don't see any change forthcoming...

*sigh*

Allow me to say: :headbang:

the US. they are about .5% of the population yet have a disportional number of congressmen and women. There are more Muslims in America than jews and yet there is only 1 Muslim member of congress and he was elected tues.

And your number is BS. There are about 6 million Jews in the US(which if you know math would be 2% of 300 million)

Don't blame us because we had overbearing parents who forced us to study and thus be in a position to get great jobs.

:rolleyes:

Why roll your eyes? Anyone reading this thread knows its true. You are clearly and anti-semite.

Senators like Joe Lieberman come from places like Connecticut, where there are a decent amount of Jews. They're elected by state and some states have a good percentage of Jews. Florida and New Jersey come to mind, yet we don't have any Jewish senators from those states. I guess it's a way of covering up the scary conspiracy, right?

And as for your use of ZOG, only neo nazis use that term. Once again you prove that you're a fucking scumbag nazi.
New Jersey doesnt have a jew senator? Lautenberg isnt a jew?

Then why are there so many Jewish senators? They arent elected by districts. And what about all the jews that have been in the ZOG cabinets throughout the years that encourage wars against Muslims and others including kissinger and wolfitez(sp?)

Go back to reading your copies of "The Turner Diaries" and "Hunter."

You are such a Nazi it isn't even funny. You even buy their bullshit propaganda.

Let me guess, you're going to respond to this post with blood libel and quotes from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

And your number is BS. There are about 6 million Jews in the US(which if you know math would be 2% of 300 million)

Don't blame us because we had overbearing parents who forced us to study and thus be in a position to get great jobs.
doesnt change the point that are more Muslims in the US than jews. It also doesnt change the point they are over represented.

doesnt change the point that are more Muslims in the US than jews. It also doesnt change the point they are over represented.

What's wrong with us being over represented? Do you have a problem with Jews achieving stuff Mr. Nazi?

New Jersey doesnt have a jew senator? Lautenberg isnt a jew?

My bad. Didn't know he was Jewish. Imagine that, a Jewish senator from a state with a large Jewish minority. Must be part of the conspiracy.

doesnt change the point that are more Muslims in the US than jews. It also doesnt change the point they are over represented.

Well, if the Muslims run for office and the voters back them they'll get into office. As it stands not many do. It's not like there is some conspiracy to put Jews into office. They're chosen, but they're chosen by the people.

What's wrong with us being over represented?

simple really. It allows the US to continue to its irrational support and funding for Israel. Effectively sanctioning the murder of 10s of 1,000s of Muslims each year.

simple really. It allows the US to continue to its irrational support and funding for Israel. Effectively sanctioning the murder of 10s of 1,000s of Muslims each year.

There is nothing irrational about it. They do a lot of research for our defense and high tech industries. They are the ONLY reliable ally we have in the region. It would be irrational not to suport them. It's not just the Jews who support Israel. I'm an atheist raised Roman Catholic. I support Israel as do most of my friends. The others don't really care, but if asked to choose would pick Israel over any Arab nation.

Do you have a problem with Jews achieving stuff Mr. Nazi?

The answer would be in the question......

simple really. It allows the US to continue to its irrational support and funding for Israel. Effectively sanctioning the murder of 10s of 1,000s of Muslims each year.

emmm....They don't kill "10s of 1,000's" of muslims each year. Nor, believe it or not, is the number of Jews nessecarliy related to American support for Israel. Its a matter of expedience. Now, go 'way.....

emmm....They don't kill "10s of 1,000's" of muslims each year.
yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way.

Nor, believe it or not, is the number of Jews nessecarliy related to American support for Israel.

of course it does. Dont be so naive.

yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way.

Source?

yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way.

If you can make that statement then I can say all Muslims are terrorists.

of course it does. Dont be so naive.

No it doesn't. Don't be so dumb. The fact is that the US has partnered up with Israel to develop defense technology and US companies and Israeli companies work together to develop new high tech items. Can't do that with Arab nations. They're kind of backward technologically. They tend to graduate a lot of people with Islamic studies degrees rather than science and engineering degrees.

yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way. .

How many have they killed since the beginning of the second intifada? A rough answer will suffice.



of course it does. Dont be so naive.

Dear me.....

Source?

the torah for one.

the torah for one.

I was talking about the "10s of 1000s of muslims killed each year" bit.

If you can make that statement then I can say all Muslims are terrorists.
how so?

No it doesn't. Don't be so dumb. The fact is that the US has partnered up with Israel to develop defense technology and US companies and Israeli companies work together to develop new high tech items.
which they then use to kill Muslims

Can't do that with Arab nations. They're kind of backward technologically. They tend to graduate a lot of people with Islamic studies degrees rather than science and engineering degrees.

:rolleyes: The Islamic empires of the past have given great things to technology and humanity.

how so?
If you can generalize about all Jews based on a small minority I can do the same about Arabs. Not all Jews claim all of what you call palestine. Many, if not most, want just what they have now. Some want to go back to the old borders. Just like not all Arabs are terrorists.

which they then use to kill Muslims Well since they've been engaged in a war with Muslims who sought to aid Hitler in exterminating them for many decades now It only makes sense.


:rolleyes: The Islamic empires of the past have given great things to technology and humanity.

Have they done anything noteworthy in the last 500 years? Nope.

How many have they killed since the beginning of the second intifada? A rough answer will suffice.



about 3,000 as of 2004. 80% being civilians, 20% of those children.

about 3,000 as of 2004. 80% being civilians, 20% of those children.

I call bullshit on that 80% figure. There is a real blurry line between terrorist and civilian when the terrorist forces don't wear a uniform. There is also the issue of human shields. In those cases, the civilian deaths are 100% on the fault of the Palestinians.

Oh, and that number you provided is WAY below tens of thousands per year.

--------------------

As for your chosen people thing. That shows how little you know about Judaism. If you ask anyone who knows just the basics about Judaism, they will tell you that the idea of the Jews being chosen as higher than others is total rubbish. Any Rabbi will tell you that. Even the 54 year old Machzor we used on the high holidays this year had a note about it.

The idea of being the chosen people refers not to being higher than others or getting special priveleges. It means chosen to follow all 613 Mitzvot outlined in Leviticus and the other 5 books. Any non-Jew just has to follow the 10 Commandments. Now, the other 603 are really just expansions on the 10 main ones, but that's beside the point here. The facts are that the Jews are just chosen to be loyal to G-d and have a covenant with him. No Jew who has a true understanding of his religion will use the idea of the chosen people as a racial superiority. Any Jew who does, has probably never really read the Torah.

I call bullshit on that 80% figure. There is a real blurry line between terrorist and civilian when the terrorist forces don't wear a uniform.

you can call bullshit all you like, the facts don't lie http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_intifada_fact_sheet.htm

There is also the issue of human shields. In those cases, the civilian deaths are 100% on the fault of the Palestinians.
no, its really not.

Oh, and that number you provided is WAY below tens of thousands per year.
Those are just the ones reported. No doubt there are far more being massacred by the occupation forces each day.


As for your chosen people thing. That shows how little you know about Judaism. If you ask anyone who knows just the basics about Judaism, they will tell you that the idea of the Jews being chosen as higher than others is total rubbish. Any Rabbi will tell you that. Even the 54 year old Machzor we used on the high holidays this year had a note about it.

The idea of being the chosen people refers not to being higher than others or getting special priveleges. It means chosen to follow all 613 Mitzvot outlined in Leviticus and the other 5 books. Any non-Jew just has to follow the 10 Commandments. Now, the other 603 are really just expansions on the 10 main ones, but that's beside the point here. The facts are that the Jews are just chosen to be loyal to G-d and have a covenant with him. No Jew who has a true understanding of his religion will use the idea of the chosen people as a racial superiority. Any Jew who does, has probably never really read the Torah.

This doesnt change the fact jews claim they have a right to the land of Palestine because God gave it to them which couldn't be farther from the truth.

Those are just the ones reported. No doubt there are far more being massacred by the occupation forces each day. .

Rubbish. Info would have leaked. Exaggeration and distortions only give weight to the pro-settler camp. Please think before you post.

you can call bullshit all you like, the facts don't lie http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_intifada_fact_sheet.htm

Get me a REAL source. Not some Palestinian website. I want a REAL website that is non-biased. That site is just full of shit.

no, its really not.

Those are just the ones reported. No doubt there are far more being massacred by the occupation forces each day.
Bullshit on that. Even your pro-Palestine site doesn't say that.



This doesnt change the fact jews claim they have a right to the land of Palestine because God gave it to them which couldn't be farther from the truth.
Yeah? I guess that is why 80% of the Jews in Israel are really only Jews by culture and are secularists who make no such claim.

Oh, you gotta love that, Israel screws up, offers assistance to the people who they hurt, so those people declare war over it? And Sovietstan calls the Israelis the animals? At least they are trying to make good for their wrongdoing, when was the last time a terrorist group apologized for hitting the wrong target?

When was the last time a terrorist group hit the wrong target? When was the last time they seperated military and civilian targets?

Get me a REAL source. Not some Palestinian website. I want a REAL website that is non-biased. That site is just full of shit.


Theres a lot of that about.

Here - 3,796, with a detailed list in English or Hebrew, depending on your preference.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp


An older report -
"While the total number of Israeli and Palestinian casualties fell in 2005 following the February ceasefire, the overall human rights situation in Israel and the OPT remained grave. Since the beginning of the
current intifada in September 2000, Israel has killed nearly three thousand Palestinians in the West Bank
and Gaza, including more than six hundred children."

http://hrw.org/wr2k6/pdf/israelopt.pdf

Originally Posted by Soviestan
Then why are there so many Jewish senators? They arent elected by districts. And what about all the jews that have been in the ZOG cabinets throughout the years that encourage wars against Muslims and others including kissinger and wolfitez(sp?).

What Jewish senators?

What ZOG cabinets?

Please list reputable sounres

"Burkina courts acquits activists"

Yes I know who Hezb'allah are. They're a group. Not a Muslim country.


Again though, not a country despite your original claim. (Batshit insane as they may be)

They run coutries. i.e. the ruling party, i.e. make the polcies, like Iran's leader. Hamas' stated goal is the destructon of Israel+ Hamas runs palistine = palistine wants Israel destroyed.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, likethe PLO was, and like the IRA is, and like Alquaeda

If a terrorist wanting to destroy Israel is running the country, like in Iran's case then it goes without saying that is a goal of the country. The litteral dirt doesn't have a will

Iraq was another country till they got taken out, as was Afganistan. luckily they have had 'a change of heart,' i.e. change of government

yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way.

of course it does. Dont be so naive.

Ya right. please quote a repudable source.

Jerusalem (AsiaNews) – As the intifada entered its fifth year on September 28, figures from human rights groups and governments put the official tally of those killed at 4351: 3334 Palestinians and 1017 Israelis. Since the confrontation is still far from lessening the tally is still rising on a daily basis.


http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1576

yes they do. They feel they are the chosen people who have claim to all of Palestine and will kill anything that stands in their way.

of course it does. Dont be so naive.

about 3,000 as of 2004. 80% being civilians, 20% of those children.

so not 10's of thousands a year.

They run coutries. i.e. the ruling party, i.e. make the polcies, like Iran's leader. Hamas' stated goal is the destructon of Israel+ Hamas runs palistine = palistine wants Israel destroyed.

Hamas doesn't really run anything. It is in control of the governance of the Palestinian Territories but has been severly limited due to economic sanctions imposed on it by the US and Europe.

Hezb'allah aren't in control in Lebanon. They are a party in the Lebanese Parliament and I believe they only hold 16 seats out of 160+ (approx.). They hold a single cabinet seat but that is a sop by Siniora to keep a powerful militia happy.


Hamas is a terrorist organization, likethe PLO was, and like the IRA is, and like Alquaeda
Yet Hamas, the PLO and the IRA are all political organisations too.... interesting quirk that, no?

If a terrorist wanting to destroy Israel is running the country, like in Iran's case then it goes without saying that is a goal of the country. The litteral dirt doesn't have a will
Ahmadenijad is a terrorist? That's news to me.

Iraq was another country till they got taken out, as was Afganistan. luckily they have had 'a change of heart,' i.e. change of government

Em, I don't really know what you're saying here. I think you're getting a lot of points and arguments confused.

you can call bullshit all you like, the facts don't lie http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_intifada_fact_sheet.htm
Not a repudable source. You where so concerned about others 'reputable sources, and you pul out the worst of all. A meda source run from a country who'se government is a terrorist organization



Those are just the ones reported. No doubt there are far more being massacred by the occupation forces each day. .

and no doubt all arabs want to kill all jews, and all jews are goldsmiths. They just aren't all being reported. nice try. Quote some reputable sources, please

This doesnt change the fact jews claim they have a right to the land of Palestine because God gave it to them which couldn't be farther from the truth.

And the Arabs claim the same thing as the JEws.

Hamas doesn't really run anything. It is in control of the governance of the Palestinian Territories but has been severly limited due to economic sanctions imposed on it by the US and Europe. .

Wether or not it's a very good country, they are a country

Hezb'allah aren't in control in Lebanon. They are a party in the Lebanese Parliament and I believe they only hold 16 seats out of 160+ (approx.). They hold a single cabinet seat but that is a sop by Siniora to keep a powerful militia happy..

They controll large swaths of land, and the government doesn't or can't stop them. But I'm willing to conceide that Hamas doesn't run the country


[QUOTE=Psychotic Mongooses;11930520]
Ahmadenijad is a terrorist? That's news to me.

QUOTE]

No, you are right. He's not a terrorist. I didn't intend to say he was. But he does largely controll or influence Hamas.

Wether or not it's a very good country, they are a country
Ehhh, well that in itself is an issue- but I'll play ball regardless. Many governing parties state goals. Many voters elect them based on these goals. Now not all voters agree with all goals they set out. Think of America or Britain. I vote for X because I agree with their economic policy - but not necessarily with their religious policy. Does that mean I voted for them based on their religious policy? No it does not.

The same can be said for the people who elected Hamas. It is incorrect to say that they voted them in because their platform was the destruction of Israel. It was much more complex than that.

They controll large swaths of land, and the government doesn't or can't stop them. But I'm willing to conceide that Hamas doesn't run the country
Ok, now you're getting mixed up with Hamas (who are in the Gaza Strip/West Bank) and Hezb'allah (who are a quasi-political/military group in Lebanon)



No, you are right. He's not a terrorist. I didn't intend to say he was. But he does largely controll or influence Hamas.
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. It could be a lot of people, it could be any other power broker in Iran/Syria. Having said that, I didn't see the United States being repremanded or invaded over it's financial support to the IRA for decades.

That was not from the US Government. The argument is that they could have done more to stop overt fund raising amongst its citizens.

That was not from the US Government. The argument is that they could have done more to stop overt fund raising amongst its citizens.

Well I know it wasn't direct aid from the government. Politicians on the other hand.... are close enough for my example to work. All those fundraisers, parties and parades... all that money being sent home, and not an eyelid batted.

Ehhh, well that in itself is an issue- but I'll play ball regardless. Many governing parties state goals. Many voters elect them based on these goals. Now not all voters agree with all goals they set out. Think of America or Britain. I vote for X because I agree with their economic policy - but not necessarily with their religious policy. Does that mean I voted for them based on their religious policy? No it does not..
The issue I was discussing origionally was that there are arab countries who call for the destruction of Israel. Iran is one, as is Palestine. Most Egyptians see Israel as theyr enemy, even though they're government is allied with Israel. Either way, Israel has a right to feen thretened. But most Palestinians wand Israel gone to.

A majority of Palestinians surveyed in a recent public opinion poll said they believed the end result of the current Intifada should be the "liberation of all of historic Palestine," a reference to all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and not the end to Israel's "occupation" of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Over 68% of the Palestinians surveyed said they support the continuation of suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians.

A poll conducted by the Jerusalem Media & Communication Center (JMCC), a Palestinian think tank headed by Dr. Ghassan Khatib, the newly appointed Minister of Labor in the Palestinian cabinet, surveyed 1,179 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip between May 29 and June 2. The JMCC public opinion polls are supported by a fund from Fredrich Ebert Stiftung Foundation from Germany. The poll's margin of error is 3%.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2002/06/13/30299.html



Ok, now you're getting mixed up with Hamas (who are in the Gaza Strip/West Bank) and Hezb'allah (who are a quasi-political/military group in Lebanon)


You are right.

However:

Hezb'allah trains Hamas oeratives, and cooperate closely
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/hizbullah/pb/app14.htm
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-2.htm
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_hamas.php
and a bunch more

also palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon are inflenced heavily by Hamas.

I think we should kick out all the people who aren't willing to tolerate other relgions. I don't care if we have to take out 90% of the middle east to do it. If they can't peacefully coexist with somebody because of something as unimportant as what they believe about God, they don't deserve their holy lands. (And this applies to both sides.) I mean, we do it (the coexistance thing) in just about every civilized Western Country, it can't be that hard.

That's bullshit. First off, to say that 90% of Middle Easterners are intollerent of other people's cultures is bullshit.

Second, you ask a suicide bomber why he's doing what he's doing, and he won't say "because they're Jewish." He'll say "because they killed my family in an air strike" or "because their brutal occupation and endless check points caused my wife to die en route to the hospital" or "because a group of Israeli sodliers beat the shit out of me for no reason" or "because my 10 year old son was gunned down by an Israli tank for throwing stones" or "because the Israli occupiers intentionally keep my people in poverty" or "becayse Isreal rutinely breaks human rights and war crimes laws" get the picture yet? Arabs don't have some sort of "hate gene" that makes them want to kill people. They are human beings pushed to the point where they feel they have no other recourse. And that to the fact that it was their country to begin with, and the Brits royally fucked them over, well, you see where the anger comes from.

And Isralis can be plenty intollerent. Many want to eradicate the Palestinians all together. High level government officials regularly advocate the removal of all Muslims from Israel.

Israli schoolchildren are tought that Arabs are basically sub-humans who don't deserve this land that belongs to the Jews and the Jews alone by grace of God or some such crap.

It goes both ways. You need to recognize that.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. It could be a lot of people, it could be any other power broker in Iran/Syria. Having said that, I didn't see the United States being repremanded or invaded over it's financial support to the IRA for decades.

No. The USA is to powerfull to be invaded. They could wipe out many smaller countries, and the general world comunity cound do nothing. Nor could the U.N. because the US has veto power.

I.e. The nations who can do as they wish without threat from the U.N. Are U.S.A., Brittain, France, China and Russia. That came up with chechnia to. There is no real way to police the world.

And Isralis can be plenty intollerent. Many want to eradicate the Palestinians all together. High level government officials regularly advocate the removal of all Muslims from Israel..

Do you have a source on that?

Israli schoolchildren are tought that Arabs are basically sub-humans who don't deserve this land that belongs to the Jews and the Jews alone by grace of God or some such crap. .

Do you have a source on that?

It goes both ways. You need to recognize that.

You are right. both Israel, and the Palestineans have misbehaved, and been naughty.

The issue I was discussing origionally was that there are arab countries who call for the destruction of Israel. Iran is one, as is Palestine. Most Egyptians see Israel as theyr enemy, even though they're government is allied with Israel. Either way, Israel has a right to feen thretened. But most Palestinians wand Israel gone to.

A majority of Palestinians surveyed in a recent public opinion poll said they believed the end result of the current Intifada should be the "liberation of all of historic Palestine," a reference to all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and not the end to Israel's "occupation" of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Over 68% of the Palestinians surveyed said they support the continuation of suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians.

A poll conducted by the Jerusalem Media & Communication Center (JMCC), a Palestinian think tank headed by Dr. Ghassan Khatib, the newly appointed Minister of Labor in the Palestinian cabinet, surveyed 1,179 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip between May 29 and June 2. The JMCC public opinion polls are supported by a fund from Fredrich Ebert Stiftung Foundation from Germany. The poll's margin of error is 3%.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2002/06/13/30299.html


also palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon are inflenced heavily by Hamas.

Thank you so much for that link! I was just looking for that myself!



Question 19: 51.5% said they oppose the resumptions of military operations against Israel and indeed found them to be harmful to the Palestinian cause.

Question 12:66.3% said they want Hamas to continue political negotiations with Israel.


Question 24: Why did you vote for Hamas?

43% said to end corruption.
18.8% said for religious factors
11.8% political agenda.

Here's an intresting one. in this whole debate we all have ideas of what is right and wrong.


Who or what decides right and wrong? And please don't say common sence.

No. The USA is to powerfull to be invaded. They could wipe out many smaller countries, and the general world comunity cound do nothing. Nor could the U.N. because the US has veto power.

I.e. The nations who can do as they wish without threat from the U.N. Are U.S.A., Brittain, France, China and Russia. That came up with chechnia to. There is no real way to police the world.

Riiight. So it's not actually a matter of whether it is right or wrong.... but whether you can get away with it or not. Nice moral code you have there.

Do you have a source on that?

these guys do:

Are you denying that Israeli has race laws? I hope not.

ISF war crimes are pretty clear, numerous human rights groups and the like who travelled to Beirut and other places confirmed the attacks were deliberately targetting civilians, carpet bombing basically. For current war crimes:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1785161.htm

And yes most Israelis were educated in this way and still are, it is only through foreign education that they can access differing opinions, and even in the US their are rich pro-Israel lobbies who try to suppress any pro-Palestinian viewpoints or indeed to reveal IDF war crimes and the fascist nature of the Israel govt.
For current evidence of this, although Israeli racism has been around for years.
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1781128.htm


Actually if you read many of the middle east threads on this board you'll see that exact story. However -

"Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

“This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land,” Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. “The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land.”
http://www.mideastjournal.com/israelitextbooks6.html

Well I know it wasn't direct aid from the government. Politicians on the other hand.... are close enough for my example to work. All those fundraisers, parties and parades... all that money being sent home, and not an eyelid batted.

Of course there was. Then they thought how it might cost domestic votes and turned a blind eye (or at least thats my understanding of it).

Christianity doesnt demand that women carry themselves any diffrently to men with regard to clothing

Islam demands that women clothe themselves in a particular way because (as they see it) men cannot control their thoughts so women have to wear that because of the fault of the men
Actually, you're mistaking the words of radicals for the Qu'ran, which calls for "modesty" on the part of both men AND women. They are both to dress modestly. The scarf is optional. Anything beyond that is entirely cultural.

Yep. 'aint no branch of christianity that requires women to dress in certain ways.

And never has.

Women in christian countries have been allowed to wear miniskirts for hundreds of years without fear of people making severe judgements on them and fear of punishment.

Oh yes.
Really? So, you could wear a mini skirt in 1915 and not get labelled a harlot? Right...

Seriously. Mini skirts were never in until the 1960s, and even then they were considered "slutty".

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, didn't women wear corsets, cinches and bustles to look a certain way for men? Didn't they dress a certain way to please men who believed in a small waist on a lady...?

Last I checked, 100 years ago, 1906, women were still wearing ankle length skirts, blouses that buttoned all the way up, and it was considered VERY unlady like to wear anything else.

Last I saw Christians and Jews wheren't beating women for not wearing burkas. Christianity and Jewdaism have long grown out of those things. Infact the womans rights movement in the late 1800's and early 1900's came from the Christian church. I haven't seen that from islamic nations.

That's because before all this radical extremism came along, Muslim women actually; they weren't perfect equals of men, but they had the same rights as men. The Qu'ran outlines just that. Anything that is said otherwise is a perversion of the text itself and twisted to suit the irrational whims of men who can't stand that women are educated and able to think.

Thank you so much for that link! I was just looking for that myself!


Question 19: 51.5% said they oppose the resumptions of military operations against Israel and indeed found them to be harmful to the Palestinian cause.
B]

So basically half (accurate within 3.5% 19 times out of 20) want to resume war with Israel. A very much more powerfull 'nation.'

Riiight. So it's not actually a matter of whether it is right or wrong.... but whether you can get away with it or not. Nice moral code you have there.

note the Sarcasm.
this is the way things work, NOT my moral code.

My point is that the U.N. can't work like it is. An invasion now and then is good for a country. Plus reality dictates that nucular world powers can't be attacked easily without a nucular war (India and pakistan are both nucular powers, I know)

these guys do:

this is the issue we are debating. a misfire and 18 dead isn't genocide. Regrettable, yes. genocide, no. Genocide is WWII, Somalia, Rowanda, Turkey in the early 1900's.

as far as race laws go, I have heard Israel has them. I'd be intrested in knowing more. got any sites for that?

Actually, you're mistaking the words of radicals for the Qu'ran, which calls for "modesty" on the part of both men AND women. They are both to dress modestly. The scarf is optional. Anything beyond that is entirely cultural.

Seriously. Mini skirts were never in until the 1960s, and even then they were considered "slutty".
.

like the Burqua, in Xianity, minniskirts where cultural:)

That's because before all this radical extremism came along, Muslim women actually; they weren't perfect equals of men, but they had the same rights as men. The Qu'ran outlines just that. Anything that is said otherwise is a perversion of the text itself and twisted to suit the irrational whims of men who can't stand that women are educated and able to think.


Many muslem scolars disagree with that. Are you saying that your interpretation is the right one? And that other views are twisting?

The controversy over Muslim women wearing veils or headscarves is increasing in some parts of the world. Recently, Jack Straw, a prominent member of Britain's parliament, ignited a debate in his country when he said that Muslim women who visit his office should remove their veils. He said it would improve communication, and called the veil a visible statement of separation. The issue of veils, and sometimes the Muslim headscarf, is also heating up in other places, including the United States.


This Muslim teaching assistant ignited a debate on the rights of individuals and organizations

In England, a Muslim teaching assistant was suspended in October after she refused to remove her veil, called a niqab, during school lessons. She filed a lawsuit against the school. The court dismissed her claims of religious discrimination and harassment but she won a victimization suit against her school. Her case became part of a debate over the religious identity of British Muslims.

Reacting to the case, British Prime Minister Tony Blair called the veil a mark of separation that prevents Muslim women from fully integrating into society. More than one-and-one-half-million Muslims live in Britain.

France has the largest Muslim population in Europe. Four-and-one-half-million Muslims live there. In France, veils are banned in schools along with other religious clothing and articles.

In Tunisia, a Muslim country, women are prohibited from wearing the Muslim headscarf, or hijab, in public. Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ali says the hijab came to his country as an uninvited sectarian form of dress.

That ban on the hijab sparked a recent Muslim protest at Tunisia's embassy in Washington. A group of American Muslims called the prohibition a violation of Islamic women's rights.


http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-11-14-voa32.cfm


if even muslem countries are banning the veils, it probably is only cultural

another link 4 u

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=88760&d=13&m=11&y=2006

Really? So, you could wear a mini skirt in 1915 and not get labelled a harlot? Right...

Seriously. Mini skirts were never in until the 1960s, and even then they were considered "slutty".

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, didn't women wear corsets, cinches and bustles to look a certain way for men? Didn't they dress a certain way to please men who believed in a small waist on a lady...?

Last I checked, 100 years ago, 1906, women were still wearing ankle length skirts, blouses that buttoned all the way up, and it was considered VERY unlady like to wear anything else.

Somebody needs their 'Forum Sarcasm Meter' checked.

Not sure if mine is too sensitive or yours needs a tune-up.

this is the issue we are debating. a misfire and 18 dead isn't genocide. Regrettable, yes. genocide, no. Genocide is WWII, Somalia, Rowanda, Turkey in the early 1900's.

I don't believe I accused Israel of genocide. I accused them of chronic and directed brutlaity against the Palestinian people, both through neglect, and through willful attacks. I'll compile a list of links.

as far as race laws go, I have heard Israel has them. I'd be intrested in knowing more. got any sites for that?

I'll check. Above is an example of Israli racism in school textbooks. I believe one of the lateline links provides examples of laws targeted against the Palestinians. But as I said, I'll do some digging and come back with a list of links.

I don't believe I accused Israel of genocide. I accused them of chronic and directed brutlaity against the Palestinian people, both through neglect, and through willful attacks. I'll compile a list of links..

Through neglect... perhaps. willfull atacks on civilians, I dount it. civilian deaths are bad press, and Israel does not want bad press. So I doubt it's in their best intrest, i.e. i doubt the government ever decides 'let's kill some muslems (or christian palestinians for that matter).'


I'll check. Above is an example of Israli racism in school textbooks. I believe one of the lateline links provides examples of laws targeted against the Palestinians. But as I said, I'll do some digging and come back with a list of links.

let me know what u come up with. I'm very intrested in seeing these laws. I didn't see an example of racism in test books though. Could you re-paste that link, plz?

Through neglect... perhaps. willfull atacks on civilians, I dount it. civilian deaths are bad press, and Israel does not want bad press. So I doubt it's in their best intrest, i.e. i doubt the government ever decides 'let's kill some muslems (or christian palestinians for that matter).'

It's not necessarily official government policy, nor unofficial... The hate in the region runs so deep, it may be the the generals, the captains, the privates that performs the horrendous acts. Soldiers that live under a constant threat, that might have lost loved ones... Revenge is easy.

The question is, would the government care about or have the will to prosecute the killing of innocent people - when the people that are killed either might want to or have a close connection to people who want to destroy their country?