NationStates Jolt Archive

It would seem that Chavez will soon have another ally in Latin America. Daniel Ortega, former Sandinista, may soon be elected the President of Nicaragua.

The usual hypocritical US allegations of non-transparency are already being disseminated.

He promises to maintain the free-market policies that currently attract foreign investment, but he will also receive the usual Chavez deal of Oil for People Who Don't Like Yanquis.

For me, I grew up reading the stories of Sandino, Bolivar, Zapata, San Marti and many others, so the recent leftist victories in Latin America seem like a dream come true. Many of these quiet revolutions embrace the free-market system, which I think will lead to the continued survival of these governments.

American leftists. Winning back our hemisphere one country at a time.

EDIT: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1940848,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Oh great. Why don't we just re-elect fucking Stalin, Pol Pot and Honecker?

Oh great. Why don't we just re-elect fucking Stalin, Pol Pot and Honecker?

Were any of those people democratically elected?
Are any of them relevant to Nicaragaun politics?

Oh great. Why don't we just re-elect fucking Stalin, Pol Pot and Honecker?

Because those guys are dead? We're getting annoyed now because a Central American country elected a leftist? :eek:

Oh great. Why don't we just re-elect fucking Stalin, Pol Pot and Honecker?because they would likely run for the War Party.


:D :D :p :D

Because those guys are dead? We're getting annoyed now because a Central American country elected a leftist? :eek:

No, we're getting annoyed because they elected a COMMUNIST.

No, we're getting annoyed because they elected a COMMUNIST.they democratically elected a Commie.

-democratically- its all about the detail ;)

No, we're getting annoyed because they elected a COMMUNIST.

What business is it of yours who they elect? Democracy also involves allowing other countries to elect who they like.

Because those guys are dead? We're getting annoyed now because a Central American country elected a leftist? :eek:

No, because anyone to the left of Ann Coulter is a paedophile, communist, terrorist, foetus-eating, gay-marrying bleeding heart liberal who fantasises over the destruction of Israel, hates America and their wonderful, perfect and transparent democracy.

That's why. (Insert smilies of choice here)

No, we're getting annoyed because they elected a COMMUNIST.

Actually, he defined himself as a socialist and a Marxist. These may be synonymous with communism to you, but Ortega is an intelligent and well read person, so I will defer to his definition of himself.

Were any of those people democratically elected?

Yes, if you consider voting for one party and one candidate (sometimes a few from the same party, but that was more of a 1960's thing) to be democratic.

Are any of them relevant to Nicaragaun politics?

Possibly. It depends on how things turn out.

No, because anyone to the left of Ann Coulter is a paedophile, communist, terrorist, foetus-eating, gay-marrying bleeding heart liberal who fantasises over the destruction of Israel, hates America and their wonderful, perfect and transparent democracy.

That's why. (Insert smilies of choice here) No, because anyone to the left of Ann Coulter is a paedophile, Anti-semite, communist, terrorist, foetus-eating, gay-marrying bleeding heart liberal who fantasises over the destruction of Israel, hates America and their wonderful, perfect and transparent democracy.

That's why.

I did not Insert da smilies of choice.. but I inserted one word.

What business is it of yours who they elect? Democracy also involves allowing other countries to elect who they like.

This is why I mentioned the free market policies that many of these democratically elected leftist governments are supporting.

In the 60s and 70s, many Latin American countries democratically elected leftist governments that then imposed socialist-style market interventions. Thses interventions caused a backlash that resulted in the overthrow of the democratically elected leftist governments by foreign (US) powers.

This middle road they are now following may lead to longer term survival than the road followed 40 years ago.

It would seem that Chavez will soon have another ally in Latin America. Daniel Ortega, former Sandinista, may soon be elected the President of Nicaragua.

The usual hypocritical US allegations of non-transparency are already being disseminated.

He promises to maintain the free-market policies that currently attract foreign investment, but he will also receive the usual Chavez deal of Oil for People Who Don't Like Yanquis.

For me, I grew up reading the stories of Sandino, Bolivar, Zapata, San Marti and many others, so the recent leftist victories in Latin America seem like a dream come true. Many of these quiet revolutions embrace the free-market system, which I think will lead to the continued survival of these governments.

American leftists. Winning back our hemisphere one country at a time.

EDIT: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1940848,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Maybe it is time you grow up and stop "dreaming" about the Bolivarian revolution? Also, each Latin American nation enjoys their own individual sovereignty and many recognize that uniting under the "hate America" banner ala Chavez is not the best way to create a true "union".

As for Ortega, a former Stalinist, he is desperately trying to re-invent himself as something other than your beloved "left wing" icon.

also, I find it funny how these "left wingers" are so in love with Chavez and his Oil bribes, but when America tries it....god help us.

The very idea that people can actually admire Chavez or any leader like him...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a serious...condition.

dp

The very idea that people can actually admire Chavez or any leader like him...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a serious...condition. The very idea that half of US did actually vote for the Chimp ...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a sad... situation.

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)

the Neocons criminally blowing-up civilian boats at the Nicaraguan Capital harbor.. again?

I thought they still were.

Possibly. It depends on how things turn out.the Neocons criminally blowing-up civilian boats at the Nicaraguan Capital harbor.. again?

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)YEAH..

All we need is more Ayatollah money.
and more Cocaine Money.

Well, I add another country to my enemies map, eh?

The very idea that half of US did actually vote for the Chimp ...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a sad... situation.


you are such an ideological hack. You can have your leaders like chavez, go ahead. go live there, and dare to speak out against him. go do the same with Castro in Cuba. go ahead, if these are the leaders you admire over the "chimp".

in other news, the Dow is back above 12,000 and over 96% of Americans are employed, even the illegal ones who can't get here fast enough from Latin America are working.

Ocean, seriously, just write, [insert predictable OcceanDrive response here], for all your posts now.

Well, I add another country to my enemies map, eh?at least you are learning soem Geography..

BTW.. we now know where Afghanistan is.. dont we?

Thats democracy for ya.

No, because anyone to the left of Ann Coulter is a paedophile, communist, terrorist, foetus-eating, gay-marrying bleeding heart liberal who fantasises over the destruction of Israel, hates America and their wonderful, perfect and transparent democracy.

That's why. (Insert smilies of choice here)

Sorry, it's Monday. I forgot.

Yes, if you consider voting for one party and one candidate (sometimes a few from the same party, but that was more of a 1960's thing) to be democratic.



Possibly. It depends on how things turn out.

No, I do not consider it democratic. To me, a democracy is accountable to the populace. The actual mechanisms are unimportant.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the why you think Ortega could turn into a genocidal maniac, if that is what you mean by: depends on how things turn out.

... go ahead, if these are the leaders you admire over the "chimp"I have zero admiration for Bush..

So the worst the other Leaders can do is a tie.. for last place in my admiration list.

YEAH..

All we need is more Ayatollah money.
and more Cocaine Money.

Don't you want to sit back and allow Ahamdinejad to pursue Nuclear technology?

As for Cocaine, with the Minuteman and recent Congressional Border Crackdowns, less Cocaine has entered our country. I am sure you are against the minutemen and theborder fence building and crackdown though.

oh and the supposed Right Wing government of Colombia is doing a wonderful job bolstering their nations economy and crushing drug cartels, all while keeping close ties with the United States. Who would'a thunk it?

:eek:

at least you are learning soem Geography..

BTW.. we now know where Afghanistan is.. dont we?

I know the perfect geography of Europe, Asia (except for occassional confusion on the -stans), and the Middle East, and I was decent at Africa the last time I checked.

And yes, I have an actual enemies map on my HDD.

I have zero admiration for Bush..

So the worst the other Leaders can do is a tie.. for last place in my admiration list.


You don't have to admire him, but at least his own citizens do not fear him. This is quite obvious with all the vitriol he is subjected to on a daily basis.

Bush may come across as a complete dolt to you, but cheering on a thug like Chavez and a former Stalinist like Ortega is an irresponsible response.

I know the perfect geography of Europe, Asia (except for occassional confusion on the -stans, and the Middle East, and I was decent at Africa the last time I checked.

And yes, I have an actual enemies map on my HDD.


Is Iceland on there? If not, they should be...they are up to something, I just know it...

Don't you want to sit back and allow Ahamdinejad to pursue Nuclear technology?I want the same rules to apply to all peoples.

its 100% fair.
its 100% simple.

Is Iceland on there? If not, they should be...they are up to something, I just know it...

No. They haven't done anything.

And yes, I have an actual enemies map on my HDD.

That's pretty pathetic, paranoid and pretentious.

This is quite obvious with all the vitriol (Bush) is subjected to on a daily basis.you forgot to the tag "Liberal Media".. you are getting lazy ;)
...
Bush may come across as a complete dolt to you...You got that rigth.

Thats democracy for ya.

Yes and they have every right to elect who they want. Thing is, America has every right and a duty to keep an eye on what is going on. Chavez has increasing ties to Arab nations hostile to the U.S. America, if need be, has the right to slap him around if he tries something silly.

lol, he actually tried to spin his inability to get a seat on the Security Council into a "victory". still smelling that sulfur in the air Chavez? :headbang:

you forgot to the tag "Liberal Media".. you are getting lazy ;)
...
You got that rigth.

liberal media? that has nothing to do with the point i was making. :confused:

you really are lost in your ideological war aren't you?

Maybe it is time you grow up and stop "dreaming" about the Bolivarian revolution? Also, each Latin American nation enjoys their own individual sovereignty and many recognize that uniting under the "hate America" banner ala Chavez is not the best way to create a true "union".

As for Ortega, a former Stalinist, he is desperately trying to re-invent himself as something other than your beloved "left wing" icon.

also, I find it funny how these "left wingers" are so in love with Chavez and his Oil bribes, but when America tries it....god help us.

The very idea that people can actually admire Chavez or any leader like him...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a serious...condition.

Yes. Each Latin American country is sovereign, theoretically. Many of the poorer nations, however, are dependent on foreign aid and investment to some degree. Foreign aid and investment comes with a certain price: limits on sovereignty. A poorer country like Nicaragua then needs to compromise their sovereignty a bit. Whether they do it by implementing the laws and policies that come with US involvement, or they do so by inviting Chavez in, is supposedly up to the Nicaraguans. You are right that it may not be the best way. We shall see.

Please provide a link showing Ortega's former Stalinist affiliiation.

Yes. There is hypocrisy on both sides of the debate concerning meddling in the politics of other countries.

I think the reason that many people look up to leftist leaders in Latin America is that we have a mythology that portrays them as populist and champions of the locals, while right wing leaders are more often associated with dictatorships supported by foreign powers. Whether or not this mythology is true is another debate, but it is a force in Latin American politics.

Yes and they have every right to elect who they want. Thing is, America has every right and a duty to keep an eye on what is going on. Chavez has increasing ties to Arab nations hostile to the U.S. America, if need be, has the right to slap him around if he tries something silly.you should only have the rigth to slap someone who slapped you first.

a slap-and-a-half (~150% the damage you got)

That's pretty pathetic, paranoid and pretentious.

don't you have a list of your own that includes Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Lieberman and Scalia?

or is that Occeandrives?

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)


Ortega's vice-president is a former Contra.

Mr Ortega has received support from thousands of emigrants who returned to vote. Many still have bitter memories of the Sandinistas' decade in power, though Mr Ortega has repeatedly said he has changed, recasting himself as a reconciler. His vice-presidential candidate, Jaime Morales, was once one of his biggest enemies, serving as the spokesman for the Contras.

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)

I, for one, welcome the return of a systematic program of rape, backed by the US and funded by international drug trafficing, as a mechanism of social change.

you should only have the rigth to slap someone who slapped you first.

a slap-and-a-half (~150% the damage you got)

what if you see that slap coming long before it actually hits?

don't you have a list of your own that includes Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Lieberman and Scalia?

No. Thanks for playing, have a nice day.

liberal media? that has nothing to do with the point i was making. :confused: neocons use that tag so often.. that I was expecting it.
I figured.. maybe if I use it myself.. I would save you time. :D

what if you see that slap coming long before it actually hits?you mean.. like Bush saw Saddam about to slap tons of WMD on US? ;)

Oh great. Why don't we just re-elect fucking Stalin, Pol Pot and Honecker?

Because America would work with them?

It would seem that Chavez will soon have another ally in Latin America. Daniel Ortega, former Sandinista, may soon be elected the President of Nicaragua.

The usual hypocritical US allegations of non-transparency are already being disseminated.

He promises to maintain the free-market policies that currently attract foreign investment, but he will also receive the usual Chavez deal of Oil for People Who Don't Like Yanquis.

For me, I grew up reading the stories of Sandino, Bolivar, Zapata, San Marti and many others, so the recent leftist victories in Latin America seem like a dream come true. Many of these quiet revolutions embrace the free-market system, which I think will lead to the continued survival of these governments.

American leftists. Winning back our hemisphere one country at a time.

EDIT: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1940848,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Indeed. Its slowly pushing back the barbarities of the Reagan era.

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)

The Contras were no less barbaric than the Sandinistas were; possibly even more so.

You don't have to admire him, but at least his own citizens do not fear him. This is quite obvious with all the vitriol he is subjected to on a daily basis.

Bush may come across as a complete dolt to you, but cheering on a thug like Chavez and a former Stalinist like Ortega is an irresponsible response.

It is difficult to compare Bush and Ortega, as Bush was elected in one of the oldest and strongest democracies on the planet, while Ortega is trying to function in a relatively new democracy that has been under attack for years. Also, Bush went to Ivy League schools. Ortega went to jail. Apples and oranges.

don't you have a list of your own that includes Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Lieberman and Scalia?

or is that Occeandrives?

Theres also Wolfowitz, Rice and Perle. Bush Jr doesnt count save as a figurehead.

don't you have a list of your own that includes Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Lieberman and Scalia?

or is that Occeandrives?No. I dont have. The only List I have is my black-book.. just some awesome girls that like I to talk-to sometimes.

ALSO.. Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Lieberman are Game over.
The War Party will produce new "Leaders" to worry about.

Yes. Each Latin American country is sovereign, theoretically. Many of the poorer nations, however, are dependent on foreign aid and investment to some degree. Foreign aid and investment comes with a certain price: limits on sovereignty. A poorer country like Nicaragua then needs to compromise their sovereignty a bit. Whether they do it by implementing the laws and policies that come with US involvement, or they do so by inviting Chavez in, is supposedly up to the Nicaraguans. You are right that it may not be the best way. We shall see.

Please provide a link showing Ortega's former Stalinist affiliiation.

Yes. There is hypocrisy on both sides of the debate concerning meddling in the politics of other countries.

I think the reason that many people look up to leftist leaders in Latin America is that we have a mythology that portrays them as populist and champions of the locals, while right wing leaders are more often associated with dictatorships supported by foreign powers. Whether or not this mythology is true is another debate, but it is a force in Latin American politics.


as far as Latin America is concerned, it pretty much is true. America was desperate to keep Soviet influence out of their backyard. Alot of wrongs were done though to make this happen.

What the leaders of America need to do today is to openly apologize for any suffering they have caused and start a dialogue with all the nations of the American continent as to how we can work together. Foreign Aid and investment in Latin America would certainly help the USA's image and would be beneficial for everyone.

and CAFTA will, in my opinion, do more to help unite South America, and all of America, than any Chavez Demagogue or Bolivarian revolution.

now Ortega almost sounds like a new man when I hear him speak these days. There is a good chance he is just an opportunist and really does value a free market and wants to do good for Nicaragua, if only for his own legacy. We will see I guess, but it would be a big mistake if he aligns with Chavez under the "Hate America" banner.

I do not want to see some stupid leftist revolution in S. America that is born out of anti-americanism. What I would like to see is both North and South America coming together and working with one another for a change.

Just so long as we don't get the US media being distracted by the big-haired Fawn Hall again, then if nothing else we can be thankful for small mercies.

you mean.. like Bush saw Saddam about to slap tons of WMD on US? ;)

well, yes actually. But implement an actual occupation and exit strategy this time around.


touche though, good point.

as far as Latin America is concerned, it pretty much is true. America was desperate to keep Soviet influence out of their backyard. Alot of wrongs were done though to make this happen.

What the leaders of America need to do today is to openly apologize for any suffering they have caused and start a dialogue with all the nations of the American continent as to how we can work together. Foreign Aid and investment in Latin America would certainly help the USA's image and would be beneficial for everyone.

and CAFTA will, in my opinion, do more to help unite South America, and all of America, than any Chavez Demagogue or Bolivarian revolution.

now Ortega almost sounds like a new man when I hear him speak these days. There is a good chance he is just an opportunist and really does value a free market and wants to do good for Nicaragua, if only for his own legacy. We will see I guess, but it would be a big mistake if he aligns with Chavez under the "Hate America" banner.

I do not want to see some stupid leftist revolution in S. America that is born out of anti-americanism. What I would like to see is both North and South America coming together and working with one another for a change.

The trouble with all that you have written is this: that is the exact rhetoric that rationalises US interference in Latin America. Soviet influence in Latin America was always minimal. More often, it was used as an excuse for US interventions, especially against local leftist insurgencies.

An open and fair debate would be nice. However, the majority of the power still rests in US hands, making any equal debate almost impossible.

The role of CAFTA, or the FTAA, is often seen as an attempt by the US to control Latin American markets. Many people don't like it. However, many poorer countries are forced to accept them as these policies come with foreign aid. Chavez is attempting to create an alternate economic bloc with a Fair Trade deal for the Americas. I would like to see what Ortega does with these options.

I think anti-americaism is a driving force in Latin American politics. You can't have decades of Manifest Destiny without incurring some resentment. I think that this, coupled with US economic power and its corollary foreign policy, will be a major obstacle to any hemispheric unity.

Soviet influence in Latin America was always minimal.

If only that were true.

The trouble with all that you have written is this: that is the exact rhetoric that rationalises US interference in Latin America. Soviet influence in Latin America was always minimal. More often, it was used as an excuse for US interventions, especially against local leftist insurgencies.

An open and fair debate would be nice. However, the majority of the power still rests in US hands, making any equal debate almost impossible.

The role of CAFTA, or the FTAA, is often seen as an attempt by the US to control Latin American markets. Many people don't like it. However, many poorer countries are forced to accept them as these policies come with foreign aid. Chavez is attempting to create an alternate economic bloc with a Fair Trade deal for the Americas. I would like to see what Ortega does with these options.

I think anti-americaism is a driving force in Latin American politics. You can't have decades of Manifest Destiny without incurring some resentment. I think that this, coupled with US economic power and its corollary foreign policy, will be a major obstacle to any hemispheric unity.


Soviet Interference was certainly not minimal. As far as Manifest Destiny goes, this dates back to a time when European Imperialism was in the place of Soviet Socialism. It is leaders like Chavez and Ortega (and plenty on the right wing side) who truly weaken the region. They are corrupt and they are demagogues. Even Mexico can not straighten themselves out. Chavez seeks to be the leader of Latin America, the major influence of the region, not the savior.

and i stand by what i said, an anti-american platform will not help latin america one bit. It will just continue to hold the region back.

Soviet Interference was certainly not minimal. As far as Manifest Destiny goes, this dates back to a time when European Imperialism was in the place of Soviet Socialism. It is leaders like Chavez and Ortega (and plenty on the right wing side) who truly weaken the region. They are corrupt and they are demagogues. Even Mexico can not straighten themselves out. Chavez seeks to be the leader of Latin America, the major influence of the region, not the savior.

and i stand by what i said, an anti-american platform will not help latin america one bit. It will just continue to hold the region back.

Manifest Destiny has often been used as a rationale for US intervention in Latin America, regardless of the veracity of European or Soviet attempts in the area.

Please provide links showing the prevalence of Soviet interference, and explain why US involvement was necessary in these instances.

I don't think anti-americanism is the sole issue at hand. I think it influences a politician's popularity, but I don't think it is an important enough issue that it will undermine Latin American politics. And much of what is seen as anti-americanism is simply local groups exercising sovereignty.

Certainly I'm just dying to see how the malign soviet influence justified the nun-raping, priest killing and dissappearing etc.

Certainly I'm just dying to see how the malign soviet influence justified the nun-raping, priest killing and dissappearing etc.

I am sure the Cuban Missile Crisis will be mentioned, and the fact that Castro created and led a successful revolution without Soviet aid will simply be ignored.

Certainly I'm just dying to see how the malign soviet influence justified the nun-raping, priest killing and dissappearing etc.

The Contras had no monopoly in that area.

For me, I grew up reading the stories of Sandino, Bolivar, Zapata, San Marti and many others, so the recent leftist victories in Latin America seem like a dream come true. Many of these quiet revolutions embrace the free-market system, which I think will lead to the continued survival of these governments.

American leftists. Winning back our hemisphere one country at a time.

EDIT: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1940848,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Sounds like good news à priori. We'll see how it goes, but yes, I dare be optimistic for South & Central America.

Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6117704.stm) the BBC article.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B475D3752-B025-40E1-8D18-FF738794A9A0%7D&language=EN

Nicaragua's electoral watchdog group is giving the election to Ortega.

"To change an opressive social system, the only need is the existence of a man with a minimum of dignity.” -Augusto Sandino

This is why I find the left and the right both equally nauseating. The same leftists who cringe at Contra barbarities love the Sandinistas, and the same rightists who are appalled by the Sandinistas have no problem admiring the Contras. Why can't people condemn all butchery, regardless of who commits it?

This is why I find the left and the right both equally nauseating. The same leftists who cringe at Contra barbarities love the Sandinistas, and the same rightists who are appalled by the Sandinistas have no problem admiring the Contras. Why can't people condemn all butchery, regardless of who commits it?

Because the Sandinistas were supported by the Nicaraguans while the Contras were supported by the USA. This is like asking the Irish why they prefer the IRA to the Brits.

Mind you, I'm latin american, so I can not speak for North American or European leftists.

This is why I find the left and the right both equally nauseating. The same leftists who cringe at Contra barbarities love the Sandinistas, and the same rightists who are appalled by the Sandinistas have no problem admiring the Contras. Why can't people condemn all butchery, regardless of who commits it?

Because most Sandinista "barbarity" was an invention of the Western press.

The major exception was the treatment of the Miskito Indians, which was unacceptable.

Because the Sandinistas were supported by the Nicaraguans while the Contras were supported by the USA. This is like asking the Irish why they prefer the IRA to the Brits.

Mind you, I'm latin american, so I can not speak for North American or European leftists.

You act as if all Nicaraguans supported the Sandinistas and none supported the Contras. If the Sandinistas were so popular, why did 150,000+ Nicaraguans flee the country after they seized power in 1979? Nor were the Contras, bad as they were, universally hated. At least small numbers of Nicaraguans - especially indigenous people - supported them.

Bolivar


Why do people idolize him so much? For fucks sake, he was a dictator after he helped "free" many latin american nations.

You act as if all Nicaraguans supported the Sandinistas and none supported the Contras. If the Sandinistas were so popular, why did 150,000+ Nicaraguans flee the country after they seized power in 1979?

A bloody civil war followed by a campaign of US-sponsored state terrorism can do that to a country.

Because most Sandinista "barbarity" was an invention of the Western press.

Bull-fucking-shit.

I love how leftists never fail to see when rightists commit atrocities, but when other leftists do it, they respond by plugging their ears and closing their eyes. And need I remind you that much of the Western press was very pro-Sandinista?

A bloody civil war followed by a campaign of US-sponsored state terrorism can do that to a country.

This was before the Contra rebellion started.

Bull-fucking-shit.

An impressive argument there.

This was before the Contra rebellion started.

Yes... and after the war against Somoza, that devastated the economy and left tens of thousands dead.

An impressive argument there.

Never said it was. I just get pissed when people defend monsters. I'd be no less pissed if someone were to defend, say, Pinochet or Stroessner.

You act as if all Nicaraguans supported the Sandinistas and none supported the Contras. If the Sandinistas were so popular, why did 150,000+ Nicaraguans flee the country after they seized power in 1979? Nor were the Contras, bad as they were, universally hated. At least small numbers of Nicaraguans - especially indigenous people - supported them.

You are correct. I was making generalisations. The exceptions you pointed out are valid and should be noted. Thank you. But I hope my reply helped you understand where I'm coming from, and how the Sandinistas are viewed as locals as opposed to the Contras.

Why do people idolize him so much? For fucks sake, he was a dictator after he helped "free" many latin american nations.

Because he was a local dictator rather than a European one.

Yes... and after the war against Somoza, that devastated the economy and left tens of thousands dead.

Stop making excuses. This was after the Sandinistas came to power, not before.

The Contras had no monopoly in that area.

Actually I was speaking of Latin America generally. Big area for "anglo" assholes in shades to play god in. Before you can say "O no. Landreform - GAWD HELP US THEY'RE CAW-MUNE-ISTS" theres some fuckwit in a peaked cap being given money to bump off that terrible threat to America - the subsistence farmer (and his wife, maybe children, depending)

Stop making excuses. This was after the Sandinistas came to power, not before.

Maybe it would help if you discussed specific atrocities, and provided links.

Maybe it would help if you discussed specific atrocities, and provided links.

I can provide sources, but TBH, they're in print, not online. :(

Even so, if you'd like, I can go dig them up...

I can provide sources, but TBH, they're in print, not online. :(

Even so, if you'd like, I can go dig them up...

Perhaps you could start a thread one day when you have them on hand. Even if I'm not here, I'm sure you could find someone else to disagree with.:)

Like me. Though I do occassionally wonder if I get the right amount of venom, contempt, scorn and loathing across. Still, ye never know if ye never try.......

Why can't people condemn all butchery, regardless of who commits it?

I often wonder that. I put it down to the perceived need to "take sides", to distinguish "good guys" and "bad guys". Many people like seeing things in terms of right and wrong, good and bad, black and white. No nuance. No ability to accept that the side which was generally more commendable also committed its share of atrocities. Which can be rather irritating.

Anyway... On this specific issue, I'll humbly admit I don't know enough bout what either side did, except in very general terms. Maybe I'll step in again when I've had the opportunity to read up a bit on the situation.

~~~~SNIP RANT~~~~

over 96% of Americans are employed,
Your math sucks....try again.

5% unemployment = / = 96% of Americans employed.

You leftwingers really are amusing :p

You leftwingers really are amusing :p

Yes. And we're better at oral sex too. More generous, you know.

Italian state TV says that Montealegre (ALN, right-wing) claims that Ortega hasn't reached the quorum (35% of the votes, plus a +5% difference with the second best) required to be elected immediately.

Anyway....

viva Sandino!

Italian state TV says that Montealegre (ALN, right-wing) claims that Ortega hasn't reached the quorum (35% of the votes, plus a +5% difference with the second best) required to be elected immediately.

Anyway....

viva Sandino!

The ballot results so far show Ortega with the required lead to win the election in this round.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B254D072F-AC06-45FF-8AA4-68968EFA5EA0%7D)&language=EN

The rivals of the Sandinista National Liberation Front have refused to accept the preliminary results, and announced they will ...

Oh my! They will start another civil war!

No, wait...


...wait until the last vote is counted.


...pheew. Democracy.

Again, viva Sandino!

Your math sucks....try again.

5% unemployment = / = 96% of Americans employed.

I could say the same to you. It's actually 4.4%. :p

So, it's 95.6% of the American labor force is employed.

No, we're getting annoyed because they elected a COMMUNIST.
You idiot. Communists don't maintain market systems as Ortega and Chavez are doing.

No, because anyone to the left of Ann Coulter is a paedophile, Anti-semite,

No, just you really.

Well, I add another country to my enemies map, eh?
I'm sure they will be shivering with fear.

The very idea that people can actually admire Chavez or any leader like him...i'd be laughing if it weren't such a serious...condition.
Contrary to the neocon propaganda, Chavez does allow criticism.

I am opuzzled as to how anyone can admire Bush, whose policies seem to serve the interests of nobody.

Don't you want to sit back and allow Ahamdinejad to pursue Nuclear technology?

As for Cocaine, with the Minuteman and recent Congressional Border Crackdowns, less Cocaine has entered our country. I am sure you are against the minutemen and theborder fence building and crackdown though.

Be that as it may, we're not here to discuss OceanDrive's opinions on unrelated issues.

No. They haven't done anything.
The communists have a welfare state and free education.

May the Contra rebels rise again. ;)
Those priest-killing terrorists?

Daemonocracy is pro-terrorism.

what if you see that slap coming long before it actually hits?
The "pre-emptive action" doctrine? Utter rubbish, that is. You can't predict the future.

It is good to see Latin socialism in the traditions of Che and others are not being affected by US corporate imperialism and their attempted colonisation of SA.