NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6120220.stm

anyone buy this "modernity" excuse? sounds just like a buzz-word to distract people from the substance of the plan to me.

I'm shocked ... shocked, I say, that America's partner in marching freedom and democracy around the world would even contemplate such a scheme. It strikes at the core of our fundamental values.




:p

Well, what's modern about civil liberties?

I wouldnt say it struck at any values in particular. Its just highly impracital

I don't understand the problem the anglo-saxon culture seems to have with ID cards.
In the most of continental EU countries, IDs are compulsory, and no-one feels that threatening to the personal freedom. To the contrary, we feel IDs are very useful.
Could anyone explain me this difference?

i just find it annoying that the implication of this statement (in the article) is that the only way for society to move forward, to 'progress' if you will, is to hand over complete control of our identities to some bureaucratic state department. ID cards are a matter of civil liberty, using a positive sounding word to say that this loss of civil liberties is a good thing strikes me as very cynical. besides which i wonder if tony blair even knows what 'modernity' means, seeing as the moder period started at the end of the 17th century and really had it's last gasp in the late 1960s.

I don't understand the problem the anglo-saxon culture seems to have with ID cards.
In the most of continental EU countries, IDs are compulsory, and no-one feels that threatening to the personal freedom. To the contrary, we feel IDs are very useful.
Could anyone explain me this difference?

do your ID cards have biometric data on them, linked info about educational record, credit history, job history, medical history etc.? i just think it's entirely unnecessary. i have a passport and a driving liscence, that's all i need and i can't envisage why they should do more. the kind of information they are talking about putting on these cards is the kind of information that i would only want to give up at my own discretion, not every time i make any kind of transaction or official communication.

Ugh! I hate it when New Labour use the m-word. Its a shameful tactic that creates the false dichtotomy between agreeing with Tony Blair and being a skull-smashing neanderthal. Not to mention the audacious arrogance in declaring that your scheme represents the ideal future for the British people.

i think it should be manditory for everyone to carry around id's with record of dna sample and finger prints. it would make cathcing criminals easier. also rids of fake id's. i think would solve our travler problems. i do hate them.

ID cards do not prevent terror attacks.

i think it should be manditory for everyone to carry around id's with record of dna sample and finger prints. it would make cathcing criminals easier. also rids of fake id's. i think would solve our travler problems. i do hate them.

see, that almost sounds like a reasonable argument (although i don't agree), until you reveal the actual reason you think id cards are good at the end. you've clearly not thought of the implications for yourself only the implications for those you dislike.

I've heard it said many times that ID cards will reduce crime and fnord-of-the-moment terrorism.

How will they do this?

I don't understand the problem the anglo-saxon culture seems to have with ID cards.
In the most of continental EU countries, IDs are compulsory, and no-one feels that threatening to the personal freedom. To the contrary, we feel IDs are very useful.
Could anyone explain me this difference?

Maybe you don't see the problem because Europeans have a different view of privacy. There you seem to be more concerned with privacy from corporations and keeping them out of peoples personal information. Here in the States, at least, we are more concerned with governmental ability to spy on and keep track of the personal habits and movements of individual citizens. We don't want the government to be able to watch us wherever we go.

I've heard it said many times that ID cards will reduce crime and fnord-of-the-moment terrorism.

How will they do this?

Criminals and Terrorists will show their victims their ID cards and allow them to scan them before escaping.

see, that almost sounds like a reasonable argument (although i don't agree), until you reveal the actual reason you think id cards are good at the end. you've clearly not thought of the implications for yourself only the implications for those you dislike.

i carry an id around with me anyway even when walking my dog.

pikies frequently get arrested for assualt. they give thier current address or a fake one. they are released and told to go to court on a certain date. since pikies move around they can easily move to another county. since alot of pikies dont actually have an id, birth cert or any record that they exist, it is very hard to catch them.

for those who dont know who pikies are, they are kind of like a mix between rats and people. i can slag them off here caus ethey cant use the internet.

i cant believe that wikipedia actually have a page on them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller)

I've heard it said many times that ID cards will reduce crime and fnord-of-the-moment terrorism.

How will they do this?

Well, whoever doesn't have their paperwork in order when they're stopped for random inspections on the street or mandatory home searches will be instantly labelled a terrorist and thrown in jail.

i carry an id around with me anyway even when walking my dog.

pikies frequently get arrested for assualt. they give thier current address or a fake one. they are released and told to go to court on a certain date. since pikies move around they can easily move to another county. since alot of pikies dont actually have an id, birth cert or any record that they exist, it is very hard to catch them.

for those who dont know who pikies are, they are kind of like a mix between rats and people. i can slag them off here caus ethey cant use the internet.

i cant believe that wikipedia actually have a page on them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller)

So basically, an ID card won't help anything in the slightest is what you've just said.

So basically, an ID card won't help anything in the slightest is what you've just said.

no what i mean is. they will be given an id based on what ever name they have given the gardaí. also have to give a blood sample so if he is picked up again they will know that he is wanted for a number of crimes.

for those who dont know who pikies are, they are kind of like a mix between rats and people. i can slag them off here caus ethey cant use the internet.[/URL]

Source? Or is this one of those friend of a friend things?
Replace Gypsy with Jew and your arguments become a tad unoriginal don’t they;)

And ID cards are bullshit if the government ever issue me one its going straight in the fire (and I ask everyone to do the same) just like that “what to do in an emergency“ junk mail they sent

no what i mean is. they will be given an id based on what ever name they have given the gardaí. also have to give a blood sample so if he is picked up again they will know that he is wanted for a number of crimes.

And how is that different from what they have now except that they're increasing the amount of data that the gov't keeps on you?

Are you saying that these cards can't be forged? Are they going to take on the street DNA samples?

And how is that different from what they have now except that they're increasing the amount of data that the gov't keeps on you?

I think hes trying to say that when the "rat people" do a runner on there way to jail we can use I.D cards to track and kill there whole family (as well as deny them food and public toilets)

This may also be good in the war on gingers since the ginger gene has been identified!

Source? Or is this one of those friend of a friend things?
Replace Gypsy with Jew and your arguments become a tad unoriginal don’t they;)

And ID cards are bullshit if the government ever issue me one its going straight in the fire (and I ask everyone to do the same) just like that “what to do in an emergency“ junk mail they sent

i never said anything about gypsies.
i live in dublin city. i am in contact with pikies frequently. they usually look differnt from normal people and have a disgusting culture. anyone in england who thinks the ones in england are bad, ours are worse.

Think of all the fun you could have with those "unforgeable" biometric ID cards once someone hacks the database the information is stored in.

I don't understand the problem the anglo-saxon culture seems to have with ID cards.
In the most of continental EU countries, IDs are compulsory, and no-one feels that threatening to the personal freedom. To the contrary, we feel IDs are very useful.
Could anyone explain me this difference?

The difference is 'compulsory'.

Requiring a uniform method of identification an requiring people to subject themselves to it and to carry that identificationn with them at all times gives the government a far too powerful tool for controlling it's people.

i never said anything about gypsies.
i live in dublin city. i am in contact with pikies frequently. they usually look differnt from normal people and have a disgusting culture. anyone in england who thinks the ones in england are bad, ours are worse.

The article you linked to stated that "Gypsy" was a common name for them even if not completely culturally acurate.

i never said anything about gypsies.
i live in dublin city. i am in contact with pikies frequently. they usually look differnt from normal people and have a disgusting culture. anyone in england who thinks the ones in england are bad, ours are worse.

Lovely. Whenever I get afraid that the human race has begun to evolve, someone comes along and sets us firmly back in the primordial ooze. :)

i never said anything about gypsies.
i live in dublin city. i am in contact with pikies frequently. they usually look differnt from normal people and have a disgusting culture. anyone in england who thinks the ones in england are bad, ours are worse.

:eek: an Irishman on the interweb!!!

Okay have it your way replace pikey with homosexual

The difference is 'compulsory'.

Requiring a uniform method of identification an requiring people to subject themselves to it and to carry that identificationn with them at all times gives the government a far too powerful tool for controlling it's people.
Really?

The only objection I have to compulsory ID cards is that while they are a must-have for everyone, we still get charged a shitload of money for'em - and they're still the gov'ment's property.

Anyway, I haven't renewed my compulsory ID card in years (and will probably face a fine when I get a new one, on top of the usual costs). Plus, we mustn't smile on the new pics anymore, thanks to biometrics. Bah!

(Besides, I always found it strange how an driver's license is supposed to work as an ID, seeing how it's almost impossible to counterfeit it. Oh... wait.)

The article you linked to stated that "Gypsy" was a common name for them even if not completely culturally acurate.

which is why i dont use the word gypsy.

Lovely. Whenever I get afraid that the human race has begun to evolve, someone comes along and sets us firmly back in the primordial ooze. :)

if the kkk knew about them, they would recruit black people.

But it's for our own protection. We need telescreens, video cameras, compulsory ID cards w/ all our data. The Gov't knows what's best for us. We aren't intelligent or responsible enough to take care of ourselves.

:eek: an Irishman on the interweb!!!

Okay have it your way replace pikey with homosexual

as long as gays are not having sex with me, i have nothing against them.

which is why i dont use the word gypsy.

You do that, however, in common usage, the terms are interchangeable.

Just another group of undesirables.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6120220.stm

anyone buy this "modernity" excuse? sounds just like a buzz-word to distract people from the substance of the plan to me.


How are dead people going to vote in the upcoming elections if ID Cards are required? It is a violation of their civil liberties.

as long as gays are not having sex with me, i have nothing against them.

You have nothing against them. Others consider them something associated w/ rats.

More undesirables. Hey, weren't the Irish considered undesirable at one point?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6120220.stm

anyone buy this "modernity" excuse? sounds just like a buzz-word to distract people from the substance of the plan to me.


How are dead people going to vote in the upcoming elections if ID Cards are required? It is a violation of their civil liberties.

You have nothing against them. Others consider them something associated w/ rats.

More undesirables. Hey, weren't the Irish considered undesirable at one point?

That was before we knew they had alcohol. Now they are our friends. :)

Not in the slightest. I find it ironic that the most reactionary regime i British democratic history is a nominally Labour government.

That was before we knew they had alcohol. Now they are our friends. :)

Good point. I had forgotten about that. I previously thought it was because we found other untermenschen even less desirable.

A national biometric ID card is actually a fairly good idea. Better forms of identification could help combat identity theft (although I'm fairly sure that the government is blowing the identity theft problem out of proportion so that they can push the idea of ID cards), as well as allowing easier passage through identity checks. Having to provide multiple forms of ID can be annoying, and if done right a national ID card could be used alone.

What I have a problem with is compulsory ID cards. Forcing the population to own and use biometric ID cards is a gross violation of privacy, and forcing people to pay around £200 (according to estimates I've seen) so that the government can remove their civil liberties adds insult to injury. Voluntary biometric ID cards would be fine, even if people had to pay for them, but giving the government more rather than less power, especially when civil libertiess hang in the balance, is something that I refuse to support.

I don't understand the problem the anglo-saxon culture seems to have with ID cards.
In the most of continental EU countries, IDs are compulsory, and no-one feels that threatening to the personal freedom. To the contrary, we feel IDs are very useful.
Could anyone explain me this difference?

I think for many Britons at least (Daily Mail readers), the fact that the continent does have them is reason enough to avoid them. They conjour up images of snooty WW2 Vichy-supporting French policemen asking "Vos papiers, monsieur?"

Good point. I had forgotten about that. I previously thought it was because we found other untermenschen even less desirable.

There's plenty of intolerance for everybody. :)

Were not Nazis always asking people for their papers? This is not good.

A national biometric ID card is actually a fairly good idea. Better forms of identification could help combat identity theft (although I'm fairly sure that the government is blowing the identity theft problem out of proportion so that they can push the idea of ID cards), as well as allowing easier passage through identity checks. Having to provide multiple forms of ID can be annoying, and if done right a national ID card could be used alone.

What I have a problem with is compulsory ID cards. Forcing the population to own and use biometric ID cards is a gross violation of privacy, and forcing people to pay around £200 (according to estimates I've seen) so that the government can remove their civil liberties adds insult to injury. Voluntary biometric ID cards would be fine, even if people had to pay for them, but giving the government more rather than less power, especially when civil libertiess hang in the balance, is something that I refuse to support.

They are a great idea until someone hacks the database and starts forging IDs'. And you know rthat it will happen, no matter how "secure" the storage system is, someone will break into it.

Were not Nazis always asking people for their papers? This is not good.

That was a misunderstanding. They were smoking weed. *nod*

You have nothing against them. Others consider them something associated w/ rats.

More undesirables. Hey, weren't the Irish considered undesirable at one point?

everybody is an undesirable to at least one group of people. whats your point?
ever found a pikey sleeping in your garage?

That was a misunderstanding. They were smoking weed. *nod*

:p

everybody is an undesirable to at least one group of people. whats your point?
ever found a pikey sleeping in your garage?

Yet you're the one calling a sub-culture as sub-human and defending it. Have I ever found a "Traveller" on my property? No. A vagrant, yes. I went out w/ my shotgun, politely told him to leave. He did. Had he not, I would have called the police and they would have arrested them for trespassing. Apparently the UK doesn't respect property rights anymore. I guess keeping a database of all your information and making you pay astronomical amounts of money to do it will fix that.

Not in the slightest. I find it ironic that the most reactionary regime i British democratic history is a nominally Labour government.

Don't forget they introduced student loans and university fees, and are desperately eager to privatise the NHS!

I strongly suspect that Princess Tony read Nineteen eighty-four and thought it was intended as recommendations for, rather than criticisms of, English socialism.

And I still haven't seen one thing in favour of ID Cards, compulsory or otherwise, even if they were provided by the ID Card fairy for free. Especially considering the government already has far too much information on the population at large.

Yet you're the one calling a sub-culture as sub-human and defending it. Have I ever found a "Traveller" on my property? No. A vagrant, yes. I went out w/ my shotgun, politely told him to leave. He did. Had he not, I would have called the police and they would have arrested them for trespassing. Apparently the UK doesn't respect property rights anymore. I guess keeping a database of all your information and making you pay astronomical amounts of money to do it will fix that.

dont know anything about uk property rights, since i'm not from there. i came into the garage the guy got up and attacked me. this guy i would describe as shreks older brother. needless to say he easily was able through me about the room, which is hard for most people, i am heavey. to get out of it i told him i would let him stay if stayed up all night listening to music with me. as we listened to music i drank alot of coffee. he eventually fell back asleep. then i rang the gardaí. it was fun chasing him down the road.
that is just one encounter with them. i should have mentioned he was naked lying on the floor. also dont have a gun nor allowed to have a gun.

dont know anything about uk property rights, since i'm not from there. i came into the garage the guy got up and attacked me. this guy i would describe as shreks older brother. needless to say he easily was able through me about the room, which is hard for most people, i am heavey. to get out of it i told him i would let him stay if stayed up all night listening to music with me. as we listened to music i drank alot of coffee. he eventually fell back asleep. then i rang the gardaí. it was fun chasing him down the road.
that is just one encounter with them. i should have mentioned he was naked lying on the floor. also dont have a gun nor allowed to have a gun.

another part of the problem.

So how would an ID card have stopped this?

another part of the problem.

So how would an ID card have stopped this?

i didnt say it would stop all crime. last time repeating myself.
he does crime. told to go to court. doesnt go to court moves to another county. gets arrested again, can give fake name, fake address or new address. since there is no record of him, they dont know if he is wanted for any crime.

Anyway, I haven't renewed my compulsory ID card in years (and will probably face a fine when I get a new one, on top of the usual costs).

Nah, I've never heard about a fine.

I haven't had a Personalausweis (German ID card) in years because my wallet kept getting lost/stolen and I was finally to pissed to shell out money again for a new one.

Ever since, I always carry my passport in my purse. Being female comes in quite handy there. :p

My father hasn't had a Personalausweis in many, many years, either.

As long as you have at least a passport, you're fine. *nod*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6120220.stm

anyone buy this "modernity" excuse? sounds just like a buzz-word to distract people from the substance of the plan to me.

It's modern all right. Just like nuclear weapons.

i didnt say it would stop all crime. last time repeating myself.
he does crime. told to go to court. doesnt go to court moves to another county. gets arrested again, can give fake name, fake address or new address. since there is no record of him, they dont know if he is wanted for any crime.


So what crime would it stop? You specifically said it would help stop these undiesirables from committing crimes. Is not having one enough to be hauled off to jail? These cards are supposed to cost over 100 pounds to get. If he's committed a crime, they should arrest and punish him. The cards are not foolproof so forgeries will go out anyway.

Basically it's forcing everyone to carry around these cards and be monitored for the actions of just a few.

"When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere." --Lazarus Long

Nah, I've never heard about a fine.

I haven't had a Personalausweis (German ID card) in years because my wallet kept getting lost/stolen and I was finally to pissed to shell out money again for a new one.

Ever since, I always carry my passport in my purse. Being female comes in quite handy there. :p

My father hasn't had a Personalausweis in many, many years, either.

As long as you have at least a passport, you're fine. *nod*
I still have a valid passport, so I have a way of identifying myself (legally). Just too bad it will expire next year... So, I'll have to make a decision eventually. ;)

"When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere." --Lazarus Long

Absolutely, we ought to be using the money proposed for ID cards and the USA Patriot Act and the Military Tribunals Act to get off this planet.

Absolutely, we ought to be using the money proposed for ID cards and the USA Patriot Act and the Military Tribunals Act to get off this planet.

Works for me.

With the exception of the gross cost of the thing, I'm not so sure I see what the big deal is about a standardized ID card. I know people are screaming 'civil liberties!', but no one's complaining that you have to carry your driver's licence around with you whenever you drive, and that's practically the default ID card anyway...

A national card which you use to obtain government services, whether it be health, transportation or complimentary goat cheese would be highly useful. For instance, a few months ago, I had the misfortune (okay, idiocy) of letting my driver's license expire. So, in order to renew my license, I had to provide two forms of ID; my expired driver's license couldn't count. Other than a driver's license, I could use a health card, my birth certificate, an armed forces card, or my Indian Status card. Seeing as I am neither aboriginal or in the armed forces, that left me with my health card and my birth certificate.

No problem; except my health card was expired... (and unless you live in Ontario, you have no idea how frustrating it is to be able to use your health card for health care, yet not to be able to use it as ID for most things...), and then the people at the health card office needed 3 forms of ID.... (you see where this is going...)

What I'm getting at, is that certain government services and forms of identification are due for streamlining and efficiency. If you're on 'the grid' anyway, governments and corporations can find out pretty much whatever they want about you as it is.

The way I see it, is if you don't want government services, don't get an ID card.

Interesting how the two opposition parties are against it like they should be. Opposition parties are supposed to disagree with the other party.

I already carry a driver’s license, and the government already knows everything about me they could possibly want to know. What’s the big deal?

So what crime would it stop? You specifically said it would help stop these undiesirables from committing crimes. Is not having one enough to be hauled off to jail? These cards are supposed to cost over 100 pounds to get. If he's committed a crime, they should arrest and punish him. The cards are not foolproof so forgeries will go out anyway.

Basically it's forcing everyone to carry around these cards and be monitored for the actions of just a few.

not all crimes are you kept in jail until your sentance is passed. i dont know how much the id's would cost. they should cost the same as normal pass ports. which i have forgoten how EURO'S they will cost. its hard to forge a blood test. also i would go along why just to track down pikies.

With the exception of the gross cost of the thing, I'm not so sure I see what the big deal is about a standardized ID card. I know people are screaming 'civil liberties!', but no one's complaining that you have to carry your driver's licence around with you whenever you drive, and that's practically the default ID card anyway...
In the UK you're not required to carry your driving licence. If the police wish to see your paperwork you get a week to take it (licence, MOT and insurance certificate) to the police station of your choice.

What I'm getting at, is that certain government services and forms of identification are due for streamlining and efficiency. If you're on 'the grid' anyway, governments and corporations can find out pretty much whatever they want about you as it is.

The way I see it, is if you don't want government services, don't get an ID card.
You don't need ID for any government services, so far as I can remember... Maybe the dole, but I don't remember needing any. If you go to your doctor or a hospital you get treated, and whilst you have to sign up to a surgery you don't need any ID and I don't think I even have an NHS card.
I don't even have a passport at the moment (it got nicked in Spain), but I suppose I should get one next year to avoid the compulsory-ID-database rubbish.

The only bit of ID that everyone in the UK has is a birth certificate, which contains very little information. That's more than enough, in my opinion.

i didnt say it would stop all crime. last time repeating myself.
he does crime. told to go to court. doesnt go to court moves to another county. gets arrested again, can give fake name, fake address or new address. since there is no record of him, they dont know if he is wanted for any crime.

What did he do cut off all his fingers so he had no fingerprints? Or dont police fingerprint and run checks in your country?

I know that there are people who don't really care about civil liberties or don't see how ID cards are a problem here. There isn't really any arguing with those people of those grounds....

But if you look at what benefits Labour are claiming ID cards will bring: cut down on ID fraud, prevent terrorism, prevent other crime.

They have yet to explain how ID cards will actually have these benefits. Leading experts have said that ID cards would not have prevented any of the terrorist attacks in the last 6 years. The London bombers were UK citizens, had ID cards been in force they would have had valid IDs. The government have said that it won't be compulsory to carry them (although I don't trust them to hold to that for long), so random checks will be pointless. To get an ID card you will need a passport and/or birth certificate, which are currently forged by certain criminal elements. All a criminal will need to do is forge the original docs, apply for an ID card and submit their own fingerprints and blood and Bob's your uncle, an ID card that appears to be genuine.

Point is, if people want to forge an ID card, they will find a way to do so.

Then there's the government's appalling record with IT projects. No database, no security system is foolproof. In order for the police to check an ID the database will have to be on a network... My husband is a programmer and in his professional opinion, having the intimate physical details of every UK citizen on one central database and connected to a network is top of the list of stupid ideas.

What did he do cut off all his fingers so he had no fingerprints? Or dont police fingerprint and run checks in your country?

how can he fake a dna test?

how can he fake a dna test?

Identical twins have identical DNA. Also, marrow transplants. As a friend of mine who once had bone cancer said, "If I ever decide to knock over a bank, they'll go looking for a 22-year-old girl."--his sister.

how can he fake a dna test?

Bribe the lab tech to switch out or destroy the samples.


Next question.