NationStates Jolt Archive

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/06/spain.trial/index.html

And yet, they will only serve 40 years. How pathetically weak of the Spanish government.

They should charge them for one death now, have them serve 40 years and then any still alive they should charge them seperately with the rest of the deaths.

Murder does not have a statue of limitations does it?

They should charge them for one death now, have them serve 40 years and then any still alive they should charge them seperately with the rest of the deaths.

Murder does not have a statue of limitations does it?

In America, you can only be tried once of the same crime. Otherwise it's "Double Jeopardy", as it's called.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/06/spain.trial/index.html

And yet, they will only serve 40 years. How pathetically weak of the Spanish government.

Those assholes should be the poster boys for backers of capital punishment.

Murder does not have a statue of limitations does it?

In Spain? Yes there is a statute of limitation with regard to murder.

weak? why?

The trial is expected to last for months. The defendants -- if convicted of all the charges -- would serve only a maximum of 40 years in prison, under Spanish law, which prohibits the death penalty, the source said.

weak? why?

Then they should change the law. Make a life sentence... *gasp* ACTUALLY a life sentence.

You're the Madrid bombers. You get 38000 years. Do you get to complain about no mercy? No! Because you took a job blowing up trains full of innocent people!

In America, you can only be tried once of the same crime. Otherwise it's "Double Jeopardy", as it's called.

Ah - but you treat each of the murders as a seperate crime.

Charge them for the murder of ONE of the people then later charge them for the murder of the rest, except for that one.

No double jepordy there.

in Spain? Yes there is a statute of limitation with regard to murder.
Bugger. Throws that plan out.

Plan B
House them with the main prison population for the final year of their sentence. Make sure all immates know what they are guilty of.

Pathetically weak? By the time they get out, they will be old. They will have missed their real life. What would you want? Calling vodoun priests to come and turn them into zombies so they can stay in prison for the next 38,000 years.

Then they should change the law. Make a life sentence... *gasp* ACTUALLY a life sentence.

Retroactive legislation? Bad idea.

Can't they just state that the sentences are not to be served concurrently? Forty years in prison for one murder...that must mean that 38,000 years is for 950 people.

On the other hand, if they're convicted, will anyone be alive to let them out of prison in 40,000 AD?

And yet, they will only serve 40 years. How pathetically weak of the Spanish government.

1.Justice hasn't ANYTHING to do with government. At least here in EU. The judiciary branch of power is separated from executive and legislative branches.

2.Even the Spanish Parliament introduced the death penalty after the bombings, the bombers could not be sentenced to death because they committed that crime before the introduction of death penalty. Laws cannot be retroactive. Also see "favor rei".

3.40 years in jail isn't quite a short term. You just try staying home without leaving for a moment and without any kind of freedom for 1 month - no internet, no tv, no books unless approved by someone else, no friends visiting you whenever they want, no staying up after 10pm - how would you feel? Plus, let's say the convicted are 30 years old at the time of the sentence. They'll be out at age 70. That is, old men - and completely out of touch with islamic terrorism. There is a difference between justice and revenge.

4.Anything is a good excuse for some EU bashing, yes? Go make more potatoes, there's a good lad.

Then they should change the law. Make a life sentence... *gasp* ACTUALLY a life sentence.

You're the Madrid bombers. You get 38000 years. Do you get to complain about no mercy? No! Because you took a job blowing up trains full of innocent people!

So because the spanish government observes the laws of its constituation its *gasp* weak...

Your rights countries should change their constitutions when its politically expedient.

Good idea, draw more attention to these bastards. They are being treated like any other murderer, which is waht they are, nothing more, nothing less.

On the other hand, if they're convicted, will anyone be alive to let them out of prison in 40,000 AD?

Yes, the Imperium.

Those assholes should be the poster boys for backers of capital punishment.


Little thing called the European Convention of Human Rights to contend with there.

Your rights countries should change their constitutions when its politically expedient.


Finally, you see things my way

Charge them for the murder of ONE of the people then later charge them for the murder of the rest, except for that one.


It cannot be done. A single mass murder is just one single mass murder. It could be different if they had carried out the murders in separate criminal deeds, but, as it was a single deed, they will be tried for one mass murder, and not for 200 different murders.

Plan B would be a lot better, but poor prison guards would have to risk their necks to save that jerks from the other inmates...

I hate this EU human rights shit. If tomorrow, a terrorist used an atomic bomb to obliterate the Madrid CBD, he'd get... 40 years.

Plan B would be a lot better, but poor prison guards would have to risk their necks to save that jerks from the other inmates...

Not if they *happened* to be urgently doing something else in another part of the prison at the time. And only *found out* after it was too late to save him.

I hate this EU human rights shit. If tomorrow, a terrorist used an atomic bomb to obliterate the Madrid CBD, he'd get... 40 years.

By hating "EU human rights things", you make it clear that you're not too different from the terrorists themselves.

Should we enforce democracy by turning our democracies into dictatorships? Bit stupid.

I hate this EU human rights shit. If tomorrow, a terrorist used an atomic bomb to obliterate the Madrid CBD, he'd get... 40 years.

That is the most psychotic, illogical bullshit I have ever read in my life. And I read MTAE fairly often.

I hate this EU human rights shit. If tomorrow, a terrorist used an atomic bomb to obliterate the Madrid CBD, he'd get... 40 years.

No, such an act would probably be classed by any state as a national emergency and as such the ECHR would allow for the death penalty (whether Spanish law would allow it or not though is a different matter).

Not if they *happened* to be urgently doing something else in another part of the prison at the time. And only *found out* after it was too late to save him.

Yea, you got a point, but then it would be the jail director's fault...
I don't think the Madrid bombers deserve such attention. They're murders and will stay in jail for the most part of their lives. That's how murders are treated in democracies. No revenge, just plain justice.

No, such an act would probably be classed by any state as a national emergency and as such the ECHR would allow for the death penalty (whether Spanish law would allow it or not though is a different matter).

Probably wouldn't matter what spanish law thought. What the spanish civilians and their rocks thought would be more along the lines of what mattered.

Little thing called the European Convention of Human Rights to contend with there.

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. What I meant was theat this sort of case is a perfect argument for changing the EU's laws.

By hating "EU human rights things", you make it clear that you're not too different from the terrorists themselves.

Should we enforce democracy by turning our democracies into dictatorships? Bit stupid.

Yes, because employing capital punishment makes a government a terrorist or a dictatorship. Nice try. I'm surprised you didn't throw in "fascist" or Godwin up this thread by using that other term... :rolleyes:

Yea, you got a point, but then it would be the jail director's fault...
I'm sure jail directors don't get held responsible for every death that occurs on their watch.


I don't think the Madrid bombers deserve such attention. They're murders and will stay in jail for the most part of their lives. That's how murders are treated in democracies. No revenge, just plain justice.

Well - this is the whole death penalty issue, which will burn many many many pages of thread....

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. What I meant was theat this sort of case is a perfect argument for changing the EU's laws.

Why?

I hate this EU human rights shit. If tomorrow, a terrorist used an atomic bomb to obliterate the Madrid CBD, he'd get... 40 years.

Madrid's a city of 3 million and chage. Let's say a bomb knocked off a half million people. According to the sentence they're trying to pursue for these terrorists, that would earn the terrorists a sentence of 20 million years. How's that for harsh?

That is the most psychotic, illogical bullshit I have ever read in my life. And I read MTAE fairly often.

Illogical? Listen, I know the basics of making a primitive atomic bomb, just from shit I got off the Internet. And I have no intention of using this knowledge. Now imagine what a well-funded terrorist could do.

Why?

Uh...forty years in prison for killing all of those people? I could go to Spain and kill one guy and get the same sentence. That's ridiculous.

Illogical? Listen, I know the basics of making a primitive atomic bomb, just from shit I got off the Internet. And I have no intention of using this knowledge. Now imagine what a well-funded terrorist could do.

...and thus you hate the right to a free trial, the right to assembly, the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion?

Illogical? Listen, I know the basics of making a primitive atomic bomb, just from shit I got off the Internet. And I have no intention of using this knowledge. Now imagine what a well-funded terrorist could do.

No, I meant assuming he would get forty years. He just violated many international treaties. The entire WORLD is going to want to kill him, whether spain likes it or not.

Yes, because employing capital punishment makes a government a terrorist or a dictatorship. Nice try. I'm surprised you didn't throw in "fascist" or Godwin up this thread by using that other term... :rolleyes:

Well, it does. State executions are barbaric, that is why they are almost unheard of in Europe. Plus the fact that executing these people would give them status as martyrs, whereas keeping them in a cage and watching them grow decrepit with age and insane with guilt is much more just.

European Civilisation FTW.

Uh...forty years in prison for killing all of those people? I could go to Spain and kill one guy and get the same sentence. That's ridiculous.

Your life is wasted either way.

You suggest instead that the death sentence be instituted for a single murder, but also for multiple murders? In that case I could go to Spain and kill one guy and get the same sentence. That's ridiculous.

No, I meant assuming he would get forty years. He just violated many international treaties. The entire WORLD is going to want to kill him, whether spain likes it or not.

International treaties govern states, not individuals, no?

Your life is wasted either way.

You suggest instead that the death sentence be instituted for a single murder, but also for multiple murders? In that case I could go to Spain and kill one guy and get the same sentence. That's ridiculous.

I suggested nothing of the kind. Nice try, though. Don't put words in my mouth. That's really bad form. But, I suppose, what else should I expect in NSG? :rolleyes:

International treaties govern states, not individuals, no?

You think the US is gonna give a shit about international treaties?

Well, it does. State executions are barbaric, that is why they are almost unheard of in Europe.

Last one I can think of in the UK is those 5 guys in the Iranian Embassy.

I suggested nothing of the kind. Nice try, though. Don't put words in my mouth. That's really bad form. But, I suppose, what else should I expect in NSG? :rolleyes:

Note the intentional question mark in my post: I was asking what you suggested instead, not putting words in your mouth.

What do you suggest?

You think the US is gonna give a shit about international treaties?

The US is going to invade Spain if this all comes down?

Last one I can think of in the UK is those 5 guys in the Iranian Embassy.

If you count them as executions shouldn't Jean Charles de Menezes also be on your list?

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. What I meant was theat this sort of case is a perfect argument for changing the EU's laws.
Why? Do you think that death penalty would have scared the terrorists? Clearly death penalty doesn't stop terrorists from killing people (see: terrorism in USA, terrorism in Iraq), so what use is the death penalty? Just killing some more people, and creating martyrs.
And don't tell me it is a waste of taxpayers' money to keep the criminals alive in jail, any country can afford that.
Also, changing EU's laws by fear is exactly what the terrorists wanted.

Yes, because employing capital punishment makes a government a terrorist or a dictatorship. Nice try. I'm surprised you didn't throw in "fascist" or Godwin up this thread by using that other term... :rolleyes:
You shouldn't be surprised of a person debating an issue while keeping polite... So why are you surprised?
Back to dictatorship, you simply didn't understand what I said. Retroactive laws are typical of dictatorships. Democracies need "certitudo iuris" - that is, no retroactive laws.
And clearly, a country dealing out death sentences infringes the BASICAL human right: the right to life. The very same thing those terrorist negated to many innocent people. I don't want my country killing people if it can be avoided - that is, war is a thing, shooting a criminal that is trying to kill an innocent is another, and killing a person that doesn't pose a threat anymore is another - plain murder.
You seem too fond of "lex talionis" and death penalty. My opinion about lex talionis and death penalty is:
1.Explained by Jesus (and yes, I'm atheist) in that bit about the stoning of the adultrous woman
2.Explained by C.I.Caesar in front of the Roman Senate, as reported in the "Catilinariae"
3.Explained by C.Beccaria in "Dei delitti e delle pene"

You think the US is gonna give a shit about international treaties?

As long as the US government risks being defeated (in a war, in the next elections, whatever), yes.

If you count them as executions shouldn't Jean Charles de Menezes also be on your list?

Jean Charles de Menezes was the police fucking up. I am not sure it was the plan for the police to kill him - if it was I think all of them would ahve shot him, rather tahn nominate one guy to take the fall. It looked much more like an officer who should not have had a gun being entrusted with one rather than a planned killing.

OTOH - The SAS was a planned raid. And while they knew all the guys were guilty there is a lot of evidence that they were sent in to kill them rather than take prisoners. Such as eyewitness reports from the hostages on deaths of two of the terrorists, and the guy who made it out the front door as he was grabbed and the SAS guy tried to drag him back into the embassy before he was stopped when they realised the worlds media were watching. Personally I think it was fair enough.

Uh...forty years in prison for killing all of those people? I could go to Spain and kill one guy and get the same sentence. That's ridiculous.

Why should it matter if you kill 1 or a 1000. You show the same willingness to kill in both regards so you should just be punished for that not the scale of your actions......just in my opinion though

Why should it matter if you kill 1 or a 1000. You show the same willingness to kill in both regards so you should just be punished for that not the scale of your actions......just in my opinion though

What, so the guys who rammed planes into skyscrapers on 9/11 should get the same sentence as a guy who stabs a drug dealer?

On the off-chance that they live, at least someone will be around to see if Warhammer 40K comes true. :)

On the off-chance that they live, at least someone will be around to see if Warhammer 40K comes true. :)

I did that joke a page ago >_>

OTOH - The SAS was a planned raid. And while they knew all the guys were guilty there is a lot of evidence that they were sent in to kill them rather than take prisoners. Such as eyewitness reports from the hostages on deaths of two of the terrorists, and the guy who made it out the front door as he was grabbed and the SAS guy tried to drag him back into the embassy before he was stopped when they realised the worlds media were watching. Personally I think it was fair enough.

Lets not forget Gibralter, Loughgall etc. the SAS executed dozens of IRA volunteers who executed dozens back. Remember when they stood on an unarmed woman, Mairéad Farrell's, neck and pumped bullets into her head. Tough as nails.

The Spanish government ran death squads against innocent Basques to pressure eta, so its good to see some morality and sense from Madrid when dealing with terrorism.

What, so the guys who rammed planes into skyscrapers on 9/11 should get the same sentence as a guy who stabs a drug dealer?

:rolleyes:

yeah, death to the suicide bomber....

Well I, for one, think it's blatantly unfair that they should get 38 000 years.

I've never hurt anyone, let alone killed 200 and I'm only got a few decades - 6 at the most - left.

Where's the justice in that?

Why should it matter if you kill 1 or a 1000. You show the same willingness to kill in both regards so you should just be punished for that not the scale of your actions......just in my opinion though

Say you kill someone, serve your sentence and kill again.

The above logic would suggest you don't punish them a second time as they have already been punished for killing.

Even that aside, I am not sure how you can possibly argue that killing two people is not twice as bad as killing one. The quantity does matter.

Lets not forget Gibralter, Loughgall etc. the SAS executed dozens of IRA volunteers who executed dozens back. Remember when they stood on an unarmed woman, Mairéad Farrell's, neck and pumped bullets into her head. Tough as nails.

Although the account is disputed my heart pumps piss for IRA bombers who were killed/executed. Particulary DURING carrying out or preparing to carry out attacks intended to kill people. Ditto the Iranian Embassy hostage takers.

Although the account is disputed my heart pumps piss for IRA bombers who were killed/executed. Particulary DURING carrying out or preparing to carry out attacks intended to kill people. Ditto the Iranian Embassy hostage takers.

So you support summary execution without trial carried out by the military?

Jean Charles de Menezes was the police fucking up.

Yes: he was still executed though, wasn't he? It is undeniable that the cop intended to kill him.

What, so the guys who rammed planes into skyscrapers on 9/11 should get the same sentence as a guy who stabs a drug dealer?

Pretty much

Say you kill someone, serve your sentence and kill again.

The above logic would suggest you don't punish them a second time as they have already been punished for killing.

Even that aside, I am not sure how you can possibly argue that killing two people is not twice as bad as killing one. The quantity does matter.



No the logic suggests that since they didnt learn from the imprisonment they should be punished again.

And I dont feel the quantity matters

So you support summary execution without trial carried out by the military?

I think when the people in question are in the process of holding people hostage and killing hostages, or in the process of blowing stuff up I don't think a trial is really needed.

As to Menzies - Fuck Up =/= Execution. I don't think they went out with the plan to kill him. If they did then it would be an execution. They did not therefore it's an accident/fuck up.

In America, you can only be tried once of the same crime. Otherwise it's "Double Jeopardy", as it's called.

Double Jeopardy is being overturned in Britain, and probably in Australia, to allow for new interpretation of existing evidence (essentially, DNA profiling.)

Britain (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,756718,00.html)
NSW, Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1735450.htm)

Actually, I don't have much of a problem with that. If your prosecutors are corrupt enough to repeatedly charge someone with the same crime despite being unable to prove it in court, then they could easily fabricate evidence or arrange for you to be killed in custody. Better that they fail in court, I say!

Reinterpretation of existing evidence is acceptable as grounds for appeal, so it should be OK for re-prosecution. Compared to withholding of evidence from the defence, or detention without charge, double jeopardy is piddling.

I think when the people in question are in the process of holding people hostage and killing hostages, or in the process of blowing stuff up I don't think a trial is really needed.

How do you know if they are in fact in the process of blowing stuff up? Mistakes have certainly been made.

As to Menzies - Fuck Up =/= Execution. I don't think they went out with the plan to kill him. If they did then it would be an execution. They did not therefore it's an accident/fuck up.

So, its only an execution if they kill the right guy then? They put into operation the mechanism to kill this man: it wasn't as if their finger slipped on the trigger. Certainly he was misidentified, but they set out to kill him nonetheless.

Would I be right in saying that useing your logic any full judicial trial, series of appeals and subsequent lethal injection wouldn't count as an execution if it was later revealed that there had been a miscarriage of justice?

So, its only an execution if they kill the right guy then? They put into operation the mechanism to kill this man: it wasn't as if their finger slipped on the trigger. Certainly he was misidentified, but they set out to kill him nonetheless.

Would I be right in saying that useing your logic any full judicial trial, series of appeals and subsequent lethal injection wouldn't count as an execution if it was later revealed that there had been a miscarriage of justice?
This is where our intepretations differ.

To me it looks like a fuckup where they were not intending on killing the guy, and an incompetent officer panicked and fucked up. I don't believe he was under orders to kill him and I don't think he even intended on killing the guy at the start of the mission.

You intepret it as the officer being ordered to kill the guy, going out and killing him delibrately and with a clear mind at the time of his actions.

So - under my intepretation of the events - your extrapolation of 'my logic' is incorrect. And you would not be right in saying what you intepret as my logic.

Under your logic however that would seem to be a reasonable conclusion.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/06/spain.trial/index.html

And yet, they will only serve 40 years. How pathetically weak of the Spanish government.

So, basically you're complaining about the Spanish staying by their laws instead of caving in and introducing more sharia-like punishments? :confused:

So, basically you're complaining about the Spanish staying by their laws instead of caving in and introducing more sharia-like punishments? :confused:

I've never thought of myself as a troll. But what you're dishing up seems kind of tasty to me. ;)

I've never thought of myself as a troll. But what you're dishing up seems kind of tasty to me. ;)

Go away, I want to bait real trolls with this. ;)

no death penalty in spain, huzzah!