NationStates Jolt Archive

I learned something that other day that I found incredibly interesting. George Washington had a few words of wisdom in his farewell address that we would have done well to heed. I'll highlight a short example of what I mean:I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.Thaaaaat's right, Washington specifically warned against political parties. There's more to what he said, but that's the gist of it. I think the nation would be better off entirely if we had heeded this warning. There would be so much less bickering, and candidates might have actually stuck to their principles instead of bending to the will of his party. It would also force people to actually research issues because of less campaigning, since individuals probably couldn't fund such huge campaigns on their own. Who else thinks that we'd be better off without the parties? Anyone think otherwise?

But then it wouldn't be as much fun!

You mean... men and women actually running for office based on their own momentum and merit and having to stand for beliefs without the protection of millions upon millions of dollars and a multitude of party machine tactics....


You've gone mad.

But, if we did that then the people who call themselves conservative would never win anything. The political land of OZ that the GOP has had the ill gotten pleasure of having would never have existed. And then what would the conservatives have done except jerk off in their dark bedrooms while chanting "I hate you dad!"

Hmmm, Washington sure had some great ideas.

He was the Father of our Country, and we never listen to our fathers until it's too late, do we? :(

He was the Father of our Country, and we never listen to our fathers until it's too late, do we? :(

I understand now, why I was covered nose to toe in piss that windy day way back when. I think I need to call my Dad and ask him for some more advice.

I understand now, why I was covered nose to toe in piss...

A lot of people have to pay extra for that. :)

He was the Father of our Country, and we never listen to our fathers until it's too late, do we? :(
Many of the other founding Fathers wanted to make him King!
or so i have heard...

A lot of people have to pay extra for that. :)

You make me think of get rich quick schemes that are likely to get me arrested. And put away for a long, long time.

Many of the other founding Fathers wanted to make him King!
or so i have heard...

I've heard that too.

I understand now, why I was covered nose to toe in piss that windy day way back when. I think I need to call my Dad and ask him for some more advice.

Rather tasteless, but correct.

Pretty much all anyone can do is: (a) rant and rail against partisan politics from some position of credibility (eg Washington's farewell speech), or (b) resign from your party once already elected, and become an independent.

Getting elected without a party is almost impossible, and only for the independently wealthy or those publicly distinguished already. Politics is a street-fight, anyone can join, but the existence of gangs is hardly rocket-science.

...and candidates might have actually stuck to their principles instead of bending to the will of his party.


What bending? Party discipline is basically non-existant in the United States. You're thinking of parliamentary systems like in Canada or the UK, etc.


It would also force people to actually research issues because of less campaigning, since individuals probably couldn't fund such huge campaigns on their own.

It would also drive turnout and other general electoral participation even further down the porcelain throne, as the electorate would lose a powerful mechanism for issue education, aggregation and articulation. The primary purpose of political parties is to simplify the process by making it easier for people to identify others who believe similarly. Indeed, study of the electoral data will indicate a strong corelation between the weakening of the party system and the long term trend of falling voter turnout (see also: Where Have All The Voters Gone? by Martin P. Wattenberg, Harvard University Press, 2002).

We should keep in mind that the goal of the "Founding Fathers" was not to create a democratic system with high participation by the general population. The best way to achieve that goal? Prevent political parties.

Many of the other founding Fathers wanted to make him King!
or so i have heard...

Well, more like President for life, and the people would have voted for him time after time as well. He refused to run after his second term, and went home. If he ran again, he easily would have won(Infact, I doubt there would have been anybody who would have dared run against him, in fear of making themselves look "unpatriotic"), could easily have been Pres until the day he died.

He was the most popular man in America at the time, and actually somewhat humble.

Well, more like President for life, and the people would have voted for him time after time as well. He refused to run after his second term, and went home. If he ran again, he easily would have won(Infact, I doubt there would have been anybody who would have dared run against him, in fear of making themselves look "unpatriotic"), could easily have been Pres until the day he died.

He was the most popular man in America at the time, and actually somewhat humble.

I think he really just wanted to go home, light a doob and chill with Martha.

I think he really just wanted to go home, light a doob and chill with Martha.

Funny story about the "doob" is that it is likely he smoked it. Apparently they had some wild pot parties in the US at the time, so I've heard.

And actually, if I remember correctly, to correct my previous statement, some did actually want a limited monarchy with Washington as King, however, my memory is hazy from being so freaking tired right now, and I don't know if that was actually true or just an analogy.

parties are a very useful tool.

...

It would also drive turnout and other general electoral participation even further down the porcelain throne, as the electorate would lose a powerful mechanism for issue education, aggregation and articulation. The primary purpose of political parties is to simplify the process by making it easier for people to identify others who believe similarly.

Wow, that actually made me think. Have a cookie, or the trivial discretionary reward of your choice. :)

Indeed, study of the electoral data will indicate a strong corelation between the weakening of the party system and the long term trend of falling voter turnout (see also: Where Have All The Voters Gone? by Martin P. Wattenburg, Harvard University Press, 2002).

...

However, I'm not going to go buy a book to follow your reasoning. Post some good bits (I had Patterson instead, from Google)

Funny story about the "doob" is that it is likely he smoked it. Apparently they had some wild pot parties in the US at the time, so I've heard.

And actually, if I remember correctly, to correct my previous statement, some did actually want a limited monarchy with Washington as King, however, my memory is hazy from being so freaking tired right now, and I don't know if that was actually true or just an analogy.

No, I remember hearing that if not some of the founders, at least a significant portion of the population wanted him to be their king. Old habits die hard?

Well, more like President for life, and the people would have voted for him time after time as well. He refused to run after his second term, and went home. If he ran again, he easily would have won(Infact, I doubt there would have been anybody who would have dared run against him, in fear of making themselves look "unpatriotic"), could easily have been Pres until the day he died.

He was the most popular man in America at the time, and actually somewhat humble.
I hear he had wooden dentures too, is this true?

No, I remember hearing that if not some of the founders, at least a significant portion of the population wanted him to be their king. Old habits die hard?

And the question must be asked as to whether Washington would have accepted. He really wasn't the the power-hungry type, and it took a great deal of convincing(Largely on Hamilton's part, whom had grown quite close to Washington) to get him to go for President. All Washington really wanted to do was go home, and live out his days.

Also, if he really did want to be King, all he really would have had to do was suggest it. His influence and popularity would have easily made it so.

As to the old habits, it could have been expected. I mean, after the debacle that was the Confederacy, a Monarchy may have seemed more idealic than refining the Confederacy to many.

However, I'm not going to go buy a book to follow your reasoning.

This is what the local public and/or university library is for. I have enough homework to do, as it is. :)

I hear he had wooden dentures too, is this true?

Now there's a question to get your teeth into. For some reason, I want to know ...

I hear he had wooden dentures too, is this true?

He had silver dentures, bone dentures, and hippo ivory dentures. I'm pretty sure the wooden dentures is just a myth, actually.

Now there's a question to get your teeth into. For some reason, I want to know ...

I'm pretty sure it's just a myth.

This is what the local public and/or university library is for. I have enough homework to do, as it is. :)

Fair enough. Meanwhile, I'm reading an article by the same name by Harvard professor Thomas E. Patterson.
For anyone who wants to borrow or buy DC's reference, the author's name is Martin P Wattenberg.

He had silver dentures, bone dentures, and hippo ivory dentures. I'm pretty sure the wooden dentures is just a myth, actually.

You really wouldn't want to get on his bad side, a day he was wearing the hippo-ivory ones!

I'm pretty sure it's just a myth.

I found a pdf about it. http://www.kdheks.gov/ohi/download/gw_dentures.pdf

I found a pdf about it. http://www.kdheks.gov/ohi/download/gw_dentures.pdf

That's what I thought. And logically, wooden teeth wouldn't make a lick of sense, as they would rot much faster than other options used at the time, such as animal teeth, and would be far to soft for chewing anything hard.

And the story goes that he lost most of his teeth from eating Brazilian nuts. :D

Isn't it sad? A barber used to be a real rough-and-tumble body mechanic! Dirty jobs done dirt cheap. Do what has to be done, charge you two bob, and discreetly forget that you screamed for your mamma.

And what do we have now? Hairdressers! They charge you a fortune to do things that definitely don't have to be done (and only to body hair), then gossip about you to every other customer.

Aaar!

He was the Father of our Country, and we never listen to our fathers until it's too late, do we? :(
Just remember that when LG, MG, and NG are into their bitter teen years...

Those who give up liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty or security
-Ben Franklin

See? It's true!

Saw this on youtube.com a while ago, thought it was pretty good, and quite appropriate here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZCNrf0IH_U)

He was the most popular man in America at the time, and actually somewhat humble.

Any man that could dispel the Newburgh Conspiracy simply by donning glasses is a force to be reckoned with.