NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061105/ts_nm/religion_evangelist_scandal_dc_4

Kind of reminds me of the Jimmy Swaggart "Lord I have sinned" thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/21/newsid_2565000/2565197.stm

Then he got caught with a prostitute again. These guys want two things, sex and your money. A pox on all of them.

Should we forgive him? Yes, of course.

Should we trust him to be in a position of spiritual leadership for a while? No, of course not.

No.

Forgive him for what? Sleeping with a male prostitute? Well, I don't see anything wrong with that. Forgive him for being a creepy fundamentalist hypocrit? Maybe...

Yes.

EDIT: Because you all really have no choice... ;) :D :p

What a disgusting human being. I could never forgive anyone for being a christian :mp5:

Which is a good example of why putting faith in an organization or a structured belief is not necessarily a good thing to do.

Examples of abuse of power or the failings and hypocrisy of those in power are plentiful even in a religious organization.

How many of these sort of scandals do we have to see that clergy is in fact very fallible as the rest of us are. And that putting of faith in the organization can only lead to errors over the long run

If I were Christian I would put my faith in god not what the church preaches that he says.

(sorry for the drunk monologue)

If I were Christian I would put my faith in god not what the church preaches that he says.

That's what most Christians do, at least those who realy know what they're talking about. It's those who don't want to think who follow blindly.

We (the human race) are the most educated we have ever been. But in the Church (the body of all believers) we have the fewest number of people studying Scripture. That is unforgivable (figuratively).

(sorry for the drunk monologue)

That's okay: we forgive you.

Sorry, had to do it.

"I am guilty of sexual immorality ... I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life," Haggard said in the letter, which was reads by a church overseer during a Sunday morning service.

What a bunch of freaking crap. Fuck you Ted Haggart and your hypocritical self-loathing traitorous ass! Fuck you as much as that prostitute probably did, because I sure hope no other gay person ever condescends to touching you with a ten metre poll, you piece of fundy shit.

"I am guilty of sexual immorality ... I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life," Haggard said in the letter, which was reads by a church overseer during a Sunday morning service.

What a bunch of freaking crap. Fuck you Ted Haggart and your hypocritical self-loathing traitorous ass! Fuck you as much as that prostitute probably did, because I sure hope no other gay person ever condescends to touching you with a ten metre poll, you piece of fundy shit.

Looks like Fass has some emotional investment here...
Of course, anyone could have told you that.:p
It's no surprize when the most flaming gay guy on the forums curses out a (hypocritical) fundy.

Forgive him for what? Sleeping with a male prostitute? Well, I don't see anything wrong with that. Forgive him for being a creepy fundamentalist hypocrit? Maybe...

Duplicity and deception.

In my opinion, the only people he has to apologize to and the only people he should seek forgiveness from are the people whose spiritual health he ministered to, his wife and his children. His whole life was a lie and he has a lot of explaining to do. But not to me.

Definitely don't forgive him. Not because of what he did. More about what he did before with working towards gay marriage banning. It seems like very single anti-gay marriage politician or pastor in the country ends up being gay. What's wrong with these people? Just because you can't openly admit that you're gay doesn't mean that the people strong enough to should suffer.

a (hypocritical) fundy.

We're all hypocrites to some degree. The question is whether we are Hypocrites. Do we make a lifestyle out of being a hypocrite?

We're all hypocrites to some degree. The question is whether we are Hypocrites. Do we make a lifestyle out of being a hypocrite?

Don't try to distract the (lack of) argument Edwardis; it's bad form.
But to answer your question, yes, this guy did.

Don't try to distract the (lack of) argument Edwardis; it's bad form.

Don't do what now?

But to answer your question, yes, this guy did.

I agree. I just think we should all remember that we say we ought not to do things which we ourselves do.

We're all hypocrites to some degree. The question is whether we are Hypocrites. Do we make a lifestyle out of being a hypocrite?


He did. For years he goes around, using his influence to oppose gay marriage and lifestyles, when he is secretly hiring a male prostitute over the course of years and buying drugs.

He did. For years he goes around, using his influence to oppose gay marriage and lifestyles, when he is secretly hiring a male prostitute over the course of years and buying drugs.

I never said he wasn't a Hypocrite. I just think we should remember that we all fall short of our own standards (whatever they are).

I never said he wasn't a Hypocrite. I just think we should remember that we all fall short of our own standards (whatever they are).

Not me. I learned a long time ago to keep low expectations of my behavior. :)

Not me. I learned a long time ago to keep low expectations of my behavior. :)

I'm sure if we went on for long enough, we would find an instance where your actions contradicted your creed. I use "creed" loosely.

"I am guilty of sexual immorality ... I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life," Haggard said in the letter, which was reads by a church overseer during a Sunday morning service.

What a bunch of freaking crap. Fuck you Ted Haggart and your hypocritical self-loathing traitorous ass! Fuck you as much as that prostitute probably did, because I sure hope no other gay person ever condescends to touching you with a ten metre poll, you piece of fundy shit.

I really must say, I agree completely with Fass.

I don't think this is the first or last time, but, it always feel good to say. :)

I think he should become the first pro-gay fundy. It'd be slightly amusing for a while, him and Fred Phelps might have a fundy-off.

To say that Pastor Haggert does not deserve forgiveness is to say that we have put our faith more in man that in God. No one is perfect. We all have a stronghold that if we do not keep in check by the word of God, could and would eventually overpower us.

I do believe that at least for a time, Pastor Haggert must step down. Although a great warrior in Christ, he is a wounded soldier. He must allow himself to recouperate spiritually and naturally. But for everyone else, we must not judge him, just pray for him.

For being gay, nothing to forgive, for being a hypocritical bastard? Fuck him.

Which is a good example of why putting faith in an organization or a structured belief is not necessarily a good thing to do.


Since the Bible tells us to not focus on men of power (as Paul's letters talk about with Paul and Apollos being seen as figureheads for diffrent camps in some of the early churchs) but on God, this simply means thats its bad to put your faith in the leaders, and much better to put it into the hands of those who put the leaders there, and gave them that talent (IE God)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061105/ts_nm/religion_evangelist_scandal_dc_4

Kind of reminds me of the Jimmy Swaggart "Lord I have sinned" thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/21/newsid_2565000/2565197.stm

Then he got caught with a prostitute again. These guys want two things, sex and your money. A pox on all of them.

Reminds me of Rush Limbaugh getting caught with being a drug addict. Same bullshit hypocrisy from right wingers who pretend that there's a whole class of people who are nothing more than criminals and deviants, but then it turns out that it's not only exactly what they are, but in exactly that same way.

I don't know how long it's going to take people to realize that American conservatism isn't a political ideology, it's a psychological disorder in which people project their own faults onto the outside world.

Since the Bible tells us to not focus on men of power (as Paul's letters talk about with Paul and Apollos being seen as figureheads for diffrent camps in some of the early churchs) but on God, this simply means thats its bad to put your faith in the leaders, and much better to put it into the hands of those who put the leaders there, and gave them that talent (IE God)

But if these people keep putting those leaders in power, then why should we listen to them either? Clearly they are lacking any significant moral insight if they can't see those people for what they are before putting them into power.

Any liberal or agnostic can see Robertson and Falwell for the hucksters they are. Their morality is superior to that of Conservative Christians because conservative Christians allow themselves to be tricked into sin. Others use wisdom to avoid it.

"I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

So yes, we should forgive him. If he doesn't stop sleeping around the Lord probably wont, but that is between the Lord and this man.

He really shouldn't have a place of trust and moral leadership if he can't abide God's laws regarding chastity though. we can forgive him, and still punish him by stripping him of his position.

He is getting comeuppance for giving that "don't be arrogant" puckered face to Dawkins. ;)

To say that Pastor Haggert does not deserve forgiveness is to say that we have put our faith more in man that in God. No one is perfect. We all have a stronghold that if we do not keep in check by the word of God, could and would eventually overpower us.

I do believe that at least for a time, Pastor Haggert must step down. Although a great warrior in Christ, he is a wounded soldier. He must allow himself to recouperate spiritually and naturally. But for everyone else, we must not judge him, just pray for him.

Who wounded him?

Who wounded him?

Ummm perhaps the male prostiute durring a heavy buggery session? heheh

Ummm perhaps the male prostiute durring a heavy buggery session? heheh

We are all victims. Victims I say. ;)

What does Leviticus say about crystal meth or is it an acceptable variation on wine and bread as a sacrament - "snorting the dandruff of Christ"

I don't agree that it's hypocrisy. 8-]

Clearly the gentleman felt that the sanctity of commercial gay sex should never be sullied by the obligations of marriage. He wanted to keep it naughty and forbidden, and probably got a bang out of the thought that he might some day get caught.

I think it's sweet. Like, endearing and heart-warming and generally all-around a Good Thing. Well, a bit rough on his family perhaps, but otherwise just good gay fun.

I don't agree that it's hypocrisy. 8-]

Clearly the gentleman felt that the sanctity of commercial gay sex should never be sullied by the obligations of marriage. He wanted to keep it naughty and forbidden, and probably got a bang out of the thought that he might some day get caught.

I think it's sweet. Like, endearing and heart-warming and generally all-around a Good Thing. Well, a bit rough on his family perhaps, but otherwise just good gay fun.

You should win an award for such a keen understanding of humanity. :D

But if these people keep putting those leaders in power, then why should we listen to them either? Clearly they are lacking any significant moral insight if they can't see those people for what they are before putting them into power.

These people are people. Flawed, broken and sinful people. Just like us all. Its just that in the position of a man of power any sin he commits is writ large.


Any liberal or agnostic can see Robertson and Falwell for the hucksters they are. Their morality is superior to that of Conservative Christians because conservative Christians allow themselves to be tricked into sin. Others use wisdom to avoid it.

You dont follow leaders, you follow God. The leaders job is to help that, not to be what you're following. Thus all Christians should look to their leaders and see if they are leading them places that are not sinful. Blindly following a human is always a mistake.

I wouldn't forgive him

I wouldn't forgive him

Why not?

In Islam doesnt it agree that everyone should be forgiven also, if they repent? Or is salvation in Islam based on works and not faith

My response to the Islamic idea of salvation is that, like the tower of Babel, you cannot build a tower to touch the sky, you cannot work your way to God

These people are people. Flawed, broken and sinful people. Just like us all. Its just that in the position of a man of power any sin he commits is writ large.



You dont follow leaders, you follow God. The leaders job is to help that, not to be what you're following. Thus all Christians should look to their leaders and see if they are leading them places that are not sinful. Blindly following a human is always a mistake.

Thanks, but I don't care to be categorized as "sinful" by Christianity or any other religion. Never understood the attraction of a faith that assumes from square one that its followers are shite, always have been shite, always will be shite (but Gawd forgives you, even though he created you that way).

If he was just a normal gay dude, sure their wouldn't even be anything to forgive for his sleeping with another dude.. For being a hate filled hypocrytical homophobe who devoted his life to spreading misery and hate, something which he is not in the least bit remorseful about, fuck no.

Why not?

In Islam doesnt it agree that everyone should be forgiven also, if they repent? Or is salvation in Islam based on works and not faith

My response to the Islamic idea of salvation is that, like the tower of Babel, you cannot build a tower to touch the sky, you cannot work your way to God

You make a good point that Islam is a religion of forgiveness, however I will not forgive him until I think he is truly sorry, which I don't think he is.

On your other point, compared to Christianity, salvation in Islam is based more on your actions than your faith. I believe you can work your way to God, to a point. I don't think you can spend your whole life doing things against God and then on your death bed convert and problem solved.

I doubt this guy was ever really a Christian. I expect many religious leaders aren't really religious. They just want the power and/or money.

You make a good point that Islam is a religion of forgiveness, however I will not forgive him until I think he is truly sorry, which I don't think he is.

On your other point, compared to Christianity, salvation in Islam is based more on your actions than your faith. I believe you can work your way to God, to a point. I don't think you can spend your whole life doing things against God and then on your death bed convert and problem solved.

I agree with you, he should be sorry about what he has done, but if he has steped down I think he most likly is.

The notion of the "death bed confession" is one that is both with and without grounds. The key notion is sincerity

God, being God is all knowing and thus can tell if you are sincere, and I would imagine that it is far far harder to be sincere about what you would suddenly percieve to be a lifetime of sin and ignorance and contempt for God than it would be at a number of other points in your life. I certianly believe its possible, but difficult

On the other hand, looking at the Islamic idea of salvation, I find it lacking, seing as no matter how many good deads you do, they can never undo the bad things.

Also Allah does not seem to me in a fit position to judge humanity, seeing as he has lived all his life in heaven, and heaven is a very sheltered existance. Yaweh on the other hand, came to Earth, and lived as a human, in arguably, a very very unsheltered life and lived out human existance, so he is in a fit state to judge.

I agree with you, he should be sorry about what he has done, but if he has steped down I think he most likly is.

*snip*

I disagree. He only stepped down because he got caught. He's only "sorry" because he got outted for his hypocrisy. Had he not been outted, he would have continued to see his prostate massage therapist just like he had been doing for over three years.

sure, forgive him... but never trust him again and cast lisght on others like him as much as possible

I disagree. He only stepped down because he got caught. He's only "sorry" because he got outted for his hypocrisy. Had he not been outted, he would have continued to see his prostate massage therapist just like he had been doing for over three years.

A rather large set of assumptions. He hasn't been "caught" as you put it. Accusations have been made against him but none have been confirmed. In my view its more likly he steped down because he did not want to be a continued source of unessecary discredit to the church.

A rather large set of assumptions. He hasn't been "caught" as you put it. Accusations have been made against him but none have been confirmed. In my view its more likly he steped down because he did not want to be a continued source of unessecary discredit to the church.

Yeah they have enough of thoes as is

it doesn't really matter does it?

I mean we have no means to condemn, so we really don't have the means to forgive.

However, it would matter on a personal level if you hold a grudge and are angry for the rest of your life it's probably not healthy.

A rather large set of assumptions. He hasn't been "caught" as you put it. Accusations have been made against him but none have been confirmed. In my view its more likly he steped down because he did not want to be a continued source of unessecary discredit to the church.


haven't been keeping up on the news, have you? He's gone from complete denial, to admitting "massages" and purchasing, to admitting to "sexual immorality" and a "lifelong problem".

Of course. Angry as we may feel, all people should be forgiven.

I agree. I just think we should all remember that we say we ought not to do things which we ourselves do.

Such as? :confused:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061105/ts_nm/religion_evangelist_scandal_dc_4

Kind of reminds me of the Jimmy Swaggart "Lord I have sinned" thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/21/newsid_2565000/2565197.stm

Then he got caught with a prostitute again. These guys want two things, sex and your money. A pox on all of them.

What's to forgive? If people are dumb enough to listen to that sort of person, they obviously want to be lied to.

I never said he wasn't a Hypocrite. I just think we should remember that we all fall short of our own standards (whatever they are).

But I don't preach to millions about them, or set myself as an example to others. Nor do I pass judgement on others, knowing that I am being hypocritical, and affecting their lives in a real way.

Also, is anyone else not surprised that it's usually the richest, most judgemental Christians that tend to be the most hypocritical?

Such as? :confused:

I don't know what it is for you. If we searched your moral code long enough and searched your actions long enough, we would find something, probably some things.

For me, it's pride. We should not have pride, and it leads to many other sins, but I constantly find myself being prideful. So, I am a hypocrite. But, I repent, try to de better, and try not to put myself in the temptation of pride. I don't justify my pride or pretend it isn't there. So, I'm not a Hypocrite (note the majascule "H").

I don't know what it is for you. If we searched your moral code long enough and searched your actions long enough, we would find something, probably some things.

For me, it's pride. We should not have pride, and it leads to many other sins, but I constantly find myself being prideful. So, I am a hypocrite. But, I repent, try to de better, and try not to put myself in the temptation of pride. I don't justify my pride or pretend it isn't there. So, I'm not a Hypocrite (note the majascule "H").

I've pretty much adapted my morals to my lifestyle... meaning I dropped them a long time ago.

I don't know what it is for you. If we searched your moral code long enough and searched your actions long enough, we would find something, probably some things. ").

....but what are the odds she preaches one message out to a nation of 300 million, an immediate congregation of thousands and secretly does the exact diametric opposite while concurrently this preaching would impact on those who just want to openly live a healthy and normal life while she leads a more sleazy version, practicing the very vices and excesses she uses to blacken their names......

Fairly feckin slim, I'd say....

I've pretty much adapted my morals to my lifestyle... meaning I dropped them a long time ago.

Can you remember where you were when you dropped them? Maybe we could retrace your steps ... :D

I'd have to agree, my morals are my own and I do not expect anyone else to live by them. They may agree with what others believe, of course.

And there are varying levels of hypocrisy. I support speed limits but occasionally speed. I don't go around using my political influence to increase penalties on speeders nationwide and condemning speeders to a eternity of hellfire to the thousands that listen to me as an expert on said laws while my average cruising speed is 100mph.

I can judge him.

Should we forgive him? Yes, of course.

Should we trust him to be in a position of (any type of) leadership again? No, of course not.

I mostly agree with you, but have edited your post to more accurately reflect what I think.

Which is a good example of why putting faith in an organization or a structured belief is not necessarily a good thing to do.

Examples of abuse of power or the failings and hypocrisy of those in power are plentiful even in a religious organization.

How many of these sort of scandals do we have to see that clergy is in fact very fallible as the rest of us are. And that putting of faith in the organization can only lead to errors over the long run

If I were Christian I would put my faith in god not what the church preaches that he says.

(sorry for the drunk monologue)


Exactly. This is why I don't worship.

A rather large set of assumptions. He hasn't been "caught" as you put it. Accusations have been made against him but none have been confirmed.
They have been confirmed -- by him. Read the article.

In my view its more likly he steped down because he did not want to be a continued source of unessecary discredit to the church.
He stepped down because he was told to. First he was fired from his ministry, then he was asked to resign from his administrative positions, which is just a polite way of firing someone.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15588371/

From the MSNBC article (emphasis added)

Haggard, 50, resigned last week as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million evangelical Christians, after a man claimed to have had drug-fueled trysts with him.

He also placed himself on administrative leave from New Life, which he founded in the 1980s. Its independent Overseer Board fired him Saturday.

In his letter, Haggard said “the accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from the ministry.”

...

The letter was read to the church by the Rev. Larry Stockstill, senior pastor of Bethany World Prayer Center in Baker, La., and a member of the board that fired him. Haggard asked for forgiveness for himself and for his accuser.

EDIT: As for whether he should be forgiven or not -- meh. His followers may, and will, do as they please or as their religion dictates. Personally, I think he doesn't need to be forgiven for being gay, and I choose not to forgive him for building his whole career out of trying to destroy the civil rights of gays and sowing bigotry among a following of millions. He'll have to do a hell of a lot better than some half-assed emo-fest to get me to forgive him for that.