NationStates Jolt Archive

It is NOT because we are invading their countries (Palestine, Iraq) and if we just pull out everything will be hunky-dory.

It is NOT because we are free and democratic and they hate freedom and democracy (OK, they do, but that's not the real reason).

And it is NOT because Islam is an innately violent religion.

What is the reason?

I'll give you a hint. They also hate China and moderate Muslims for the same reason. And if they cared to think about it, they would hate Ecuador, North Korea, Haiti, and even the Nazis for the same reason.

They hate us because we are not like them. We are not radical Muslims who subscribe to extremist interpretations of the Koran. It doesn't matter if we are democratic Judeo-Christians, or atheist communists, or violent Neo-Nazi street gangs, or brainwashed North Koreans.

This means that we cannot simply win by appeasing them. Nor does it mean that by giving them democracy they will automatically become our friends. Nor does it mean that the only solution is exterminating all Muslims (that would work, but at the cost of our own souls, not to mention violating the Constitution AND Bible).

What we can do is work to win the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims. Turn them against the radicals, and the radicals will not last.

We also cannot retreat. Anywhere. In Iraq, for instance, while it started as an experiment in dictator-killing, it has turned into the main battlefield between the radical Muslims and, in this case, the West. If we pull out, they get a huge propaganda victory. If we manage to defeat them, and leave an Iraq capable of standing on its own two feet, then WE have the victory.

And finally, we can take heart in the knowledge that in the end, they are screwed. If they manage to force us out of Iraq, then we have the perfect recipe for a Sunni-Shiite massacre. Imagine Baghdad, minus the Americans, ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST.
Even in a worst-case scenario, where the radical Muslims have taken over the Middle East WITHOUT killing each other off, they would not only have to face the US and her closest allies. They would have to face China, India, Russia, Japan, the Europeans (who, when faced with this direct threat, would grow back the spines they had in World War II), most of Africa, and the entire Western Hemisphere. If nothing else, we outnumber them. By a lot. And we have the vast majority of the world's brainpower. I personally do not see a radical Muslim victory as a reasonable scenario.

Just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there.

Really? I thought the CIRA hated me because I didn't support the violent imposition of a 32 county Ireland. Ah well, live and learn.

And I bet the terrorists will enjoy reading this post.

:eek:

What we can do is work to win the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims. Turn them against the radicals, and the radicals will not last.


Exactly, the battlefield for jihadist terrorists is the Hearts and the minds of their arab & muslim neigbors, Hezbollah's PR campaign is just as important to them as their military campaign, we need a new strategy to fight this war on jihadism.

Indeed; terrorists are quite xenophobic. Anything which does not conform with their strict and wacky moral values scares them. On the bright side, at least they'll be weeded out be evolution.

Indeed; terrorists are quite xenophobic. Anything which does not conform with their strict and wacky moral values scares them. On the bright side, at least they'll be weeded out be evolution.
The same's probably to be said for you, mind.

The same's probably to be said for you, mind.

Please do not jack this thread into the world of MTAE-bashing.

Exactly, the battlefield for terrorists is the Hearts and the minds of their arab & muslim neigbors...

Since when did the Continuity IRA have sizeable populations of Arab or Muslim neighbours?

Since when did the Continuity IRA have sizeable populations of Arab or Muslim neighbours?

Corrected. Damn you!

Corrected. Damn you!

Appreciated. The US based posters here can often have a somewhat offensively limited perspective. No personal offensive to your good self intended.

My point? International terrorism is not a homogenous monoculture. Obvious, yes, but it sometimes needs be said.

Indeed; terrorists are quite xenophobic. Anything which does not conform with their strict and wacky moral values scares them. On the bright side, at least they'll be weeded out be evolution.

This is the smartest thing I've ever seen you say.

Appreciated. The US based posters here can often have a somewhat offensively limited perspective. No personal offensive to your good self intended.

Too true, I blame it on American media and politicians who invented the phrase "The Terrorists". When they say that we automatically and usually correctly assume them to be referring to the Jihadist, Al-Qaeda types, the two have become inseperable in the American psyche.

When someone says "thats exactly what the terrorists want!" we automatically get the image of a guy with a tribal scarf in Baghdad holding an AK-47 in our heads, not some dude from Cork wearing a ski-mask, chucking a bomb into an office building or train station.

They hate us because we have Nintendo.

Terr'ists hate us cuz we have freedom. They envy and despise our freedoms. Freedom freedom freedom!

:p

They hate us because we have Nintendo.

Nonsense. They've hated us since the days of Atari 2600.

They hate us for our precious bodily fluids.

Nonsense. They've hated us since the days of Atari 2600.

You both win the thread.

Nonsense. They've hated us since the days of Atari 2600.

It was Pong that started it all.

* throws head back and reaches to the skies *

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!

They hate us for our precious bodily fluids.

Agreed. ;)

Please do not jack this thread into the world of MTAE-bashing.

What does "MTAE" mean? I've seen it several times on NS forums but I don't know what it means. Somebody tell me please?

It is NOT because we are invading their countries (Palestine, Iraq) and if we just pull out everything will be hunky-dory.

It is NOT because we are free and democratic and they hate freedom and democracy (OK, they do, but that's not the real reason).

And it is NOT because Islam is an innately violent religion.

What is the reason?

I'll give you a hint. They also hate China and moderate Muslims for the same reason. And if they cared to think about it, they would hate Ecuador, North Korea, Haiti, and even the Nazis for the same reason.

They hate us because we are not like them. We are not radical Muslims who subscribe to extremist interpretations of the Koran. It doesn't matter if we are democratic Judeo-Christians, or atheist communists, or violent Neo-Nazi street gangs, or brainwashed North Koreans.

Granted, they DO hate us for not being like them, but those other reasons you listed above are also reasons they hate us.

They don't like us invading them (and in fact we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place; George Bush SENIOR should have removed Saddam instead of leaving it for his son W), but you are right; everything will NOT automatically be "hunky-dory" if we pull out.

They hate democracy and freedom, at least RELIGIOUS freedom.

And Islam, as it is taught in the Koran, IS a violent religion. The Koran says "Kill the infidels! Fight them until they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but the god.'" ("Allah", in Arabic, means "the god"; it is NOT a proper name.

No, they hate us because we manipulate their country's internal affairs.

What does "MTAE" mean? I've seen it several times on NS forums but I don't know what it means. Somebody tell me please?


Means To An End; a poster that (apparently) some people don't much care for.

*snip*
They don't like us invading them (and in fact we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place; George Bush SENIOR should have removed Saddam instead of leaving it for his son W), but you are right; everything will NOT automatically be "hunky-dory" if we pull out.


Well, the problem with that is that Bush 41 was following the UN's mandate, i.e. liberating Kuwait. To push it farther (removing Saddam) would have been viewed just as the current war, i.e. 'going it alone'.

Terr'ists hate us cuz we have freedom. They envy and despise our freedoms. Freedom freedom freedom!

:p

Finally, that's something we can agree on. Now, if you can only say that without a trace of sarcasm we'll be all set. The truth is that terrorists hate freedom because it conflicts with their desired implementation of Islamic law.

Originally Posted by Greater Trostia
Terr'ists hate us cuz we have freedom. They envy and despise our freedoms. Freedom freedom freedom!

"They may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR FREEDOM" - Braveheart

They hate us for our precious bodily fluids.

I can no longer sit back and allow Jihadist infiltration, Jihadist indoctrination, Jihadist subversion and the international Jihadist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

I can no longer sit back and allow Jihadist infiltration, Jihadist indoctrination, Jihadist subversion and the international Jihadist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Even when it feels good?

I can no longer sit back and allow Jihadist infiltration, Jihadist indoctrination, Jihadist subversion and the international Jihadist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Always a knee-slapper, that.:)

"They may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR ATARI" - Braveheart
Ye of little knowledge of Scottish history.

Ye of little knowledge of Scottish history.

Or Scots history, for that matter, eh DM?

*winks*

Or Scots history, for that matter, eh DM?

*winks*

Whatever... where did I put my grog...?

they hate us for quite a few reasons. some make sense, some dont.


1) we're not moslem yet we run the world

2) we (the us) support israel

3) we prop up brutal and repressive regimes that allow THEM no freedom so that the supply of oil can proceed uninterrupted

4) those governments divert attention away from themselves by having their discontented people hate us instead

5) those governments dont allow protests against themselves, they have no freedom to criticize those governments in the media, so they go after US instead.

6) governments like the house of saud sponsor religious schools throughout the islamic world that teach their children that we are the source of all strife in their countries.

7) the irrational invasion of iraq leads them to think that our intent is to control the middle east by any means necessary.

8) fighting us makes them the big boys of the militant fundamentalist islamic world.

no, we wont change their minds by abandoning israel and pulling out of iraq. our middle east policy should not be changed to accomodate the demands of extremist groups. they cant be appeased. they'll take our concessions and move on to new demands.

we should make our ME policy based on our own best interests and the interests of the moderates in those countries. we should pull out of iraq in a measured and calm manner when the situation calls for it (now). we should support the israel/palestine peace process in a way that leaves the palestinians as winners as much as israelis are.

It was right here, but some twit named Guybrush stole it.

Ye of little knowledge of Scottish history.

I know for a FACT that Robert the Bruce owned a NES. :)

It seems that the terrorists use Western involvement in the Middle East as a rallying cry to get people to join their cause. If we were to completely withdraw our assets from the Middle East - and by that I mean remove every trace of Western influence, including a total ban on Westerners even visiting - that would have a serious effect on their recruitment abilities, but they have their ways. They even indoctrinate their children.

To clarify, this opinion was formed on the fifth anniversary of 9/11. At our school, we watched a movie called Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West - a very good film, which does an outstanding job of not only discussing the dangers of radical Islam, but of distinguishing it from mainstream Islam, partly by having moderate Muslims do most of the talking. Some of those images had me, an American who is constantly exposed to violence on our news, averting my eyes.

No, not the images of suicide bombings and terror attacks. I'm used to those - until about a week ago, my family watched the CBS Evening News almost every night. It was the images of 4-year-old Palestinian girls crying out their burning desire to become suicide bombers that I could not watch.

This is an atrocity that, in my eyes, makes 9/11 look minor in comparison. I might be able to forgive them for killing our people. But indoctrinating young children with hateful doctrine, that I cannot forgive. That is truly an unforgivable offense. I am ashamed to share the genetic makeup of such people. They do not deserve to be called human.

While the OP is being a bit imprecise wiht his terminology, he's got more going than it might seem at a quick glance. I feel he is right, in a very fundamental way.

If an individual is confident of their personal identity, they tend to be less willing to act out against other to make them like themselves. Bullies in middle school are the most obvious example of an individual with an ill formed personal identity. But, what makes a persons individual identity? Internal factors, obviously, but external factors play a vital role. One of these external factors is national identity.

When national identity is weak, then people tend towards nationalist universalism. A desire to make other people like them. Germany in the 1930's is an excellent example of this, in which the German national identity was ill formed, and the Weimar Republic had serious national prestige issues (WWI).

Of course, oftentimes, the nation is too weak to provide a host for nationalist universalism. The nation is repeatedly defeated by a specific target of hatred. Arab Nationalism failed repeatedly in many of its promised arenas. It has failed to increase the prestige that was lost at the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, it has failed to substantially improve the lives of the people, it has failed to eliminate the state of Israel. As a result of this, certain individuals find a part of their identities severely lacking.

There is another option for people who find their national identities lacking, they can fall back on religion. Religion proves to be something that can fill in this role. When a religion is ill defined, though, the problem of nationalist universalism rears its ugly head, only, now, in the form of religious universalism. A desire to make others like you in a religioous sense. Religious universalists, much like nationalist universalists, are quite willing to use violence against those who are different from them.

Of course, when noticing a poor national identity, we must also make mention of the fact that the US has a poor national identity. Think about it, it makes sense. We Americans have no common religion, ethnicity, race or language. We are sewn together by civil law. And as a result, our national identity is rather weak for a Great Power. The symptoms of a mild nationalist universalism, increased religiosity and more military assertiveness on the global scene also undergird the argument that the US has a poor national identity.

BUT

Our problem is nowhere near as severe as that of Islamic Extremist Terrorists. It is regulated, restricted and restrained by several key national and international institutions. IET's don't have those things.

they hate us for quite a few reasons. some make sense, some dont.


1) we're not moslem yet we run the world

2) we (the us) support israel

3) we prop up brutal and repressive regimes that allow THEM no freedom so that the supply of oil can proceed uninterrupted

4) those governments divert attention away from themselves by having their discontented people hate us instead

5) those governments dont allow protests against themselves, they have no freedom to criticize those governments in the media, so they go after US instead.

6) governments like the house of saud sponsor religious schools throughout the islamic world that teach their children that we are the source of all strife in their countries.

7) the irrational invasion of iraq leads them to think that our intent is to control the middle east by any means necessary.

8) fighting us makes them the big boys of the militant fundamentalist islamic world.

no, we wont change their minds by abandoning israel and pulling out of iraq. our middle east policy should not be changed to accomodate the demands of extremist groups. they cant be appeased. they'll take our concessions and move on to new demands.

we should make our ME policy based on our own best interests and the interests of the moderates in those countries. we should pull out of iraq in a measured and calm manner when the situation calls for it (now). we should support the israel/palestine peace process in a way that leaves the palestinians as winners as much as israelis are.

You're right about terrorists. This is how they operate:

1. While they are killing you left and right, they come to you and say "Give us this or we'll kill you"
2. You give them "this"
3. As they continue to kill you, they come back and say "Give us THAT and we'll leave you alone in peace"
4. You give them "THAT"
5. While slaughtering you en masse, they come back again and say "If you give us THIS we'll stop killing you"
6. You give them "THIS"
7. While they keep on killing you without any let-up, they come back AGAIN and say "If you give us THAT over there we'll let you live"
8. You give them "THAT over there"
9. Repeat steps 1-8 until you run out of things to give them
10. Without giving you ANY relief from being killed, they come back one more time and say "Give us this or that or we'll kill you", but you have nothing left.
11. You are completely destroyed right down to the last man, woman, and child, and wiped off the face of the earth

THAT is how terrorists work. You CANNOT negotiate with them. They do NOT want peace. They want nothing less than total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide.

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

The United Nations CANNOT tolerate those three truths, because they are not "politically correct" in the "New Age" or the "New World Order," and they run contrary to everything the UN stands for (the end of the Jewish state, and thereby the disproof of the Bible and of the existence of God).

May America NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER even think of turning their backs on Israel. Israel is the ONLY real ally we have in the Middle East. To abandon Israel would be to shoot ourselves in the head or the heart; the day America forakes Israel (may God forever prevent that day from coming) will be the beginning of the end for the USA as a world power, never mind a "SUPERpower."

Actually, terrorists hate us because we are an easy target for hate in a strongman-based political society where terrorist groups vie for control of governments. Having a common hate is a nice way to hold on to central power.

The Muslim extremists don't just hate the Jews/Israelis (though they probably hate us more than they hate others). They hate everyone else.

However, I am quite pleased that my post has failed to elicit a harsh response. I was actually concerned that some would call it 'trolling'. Why is it that people do not hate me?

Means To An End; a poster that (apparently) some people don't much care for.

Thanks.:D

The Muslim extremists don't just hate the Jews/Israelis (though they probably hate us more than they hate others). They hate everyone else.

However, I am quite pleased that my post has failed to elicit a harsh response. I was actually concerned that some would call it 'trolling'. Why is it that people do not hate me?

You're obviously not trying hard enough....:)

"They may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR FREEDOM" - Braveheart

picture him saying that with a dainty british accent. wallace was a british lord, educated in england, and not really particularly scottish at all.

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

things like this make me feel much more secure in disagreeing with supporters of israel.

Actually, terrorists hate us because we are an easy target for hate in a strongman-based political society where terrorist groups vie for control of governments. Having a common hate is a nice way to hold on to central power.

*blink* hey wait, that makes sense!

Why is it that people do not hate me?

:fluffle:

picture him saying that with a dainty british accent. wallace was a british lord, educated in england, and not really particularly scottish at all.

Geez, next thing you know, someone's going to tell me William the Conquerer was French...;)

You're right about terrorists. This is how they operate:

1. While they are killing you left and right, they come to you and say "Give us this or we'll kill you"
2. You give them "this"
3. As they continue to kill you, they come back and say "Give us THAT and we'll leave you alone in peace"
4. You give them "THAT"
5. While slaughtering you en masse, they come back again and say "If you give us THIS we'll stop killing you"
6. You give them "THIS"
7. While they keep on killing you without any let-up, they come back AGAIN and say "If you give us THAT over there we'll let you live"
8. You give them "THAT over there"
9. Repeat steps 1-8 until you run out of things to give them
10. Without giving you ANY relief from being killed, they come back one more time and say "Give us this or that or we'll kill you", but you have nothing left.
11. You are completely destroyed right down to the last man, woman, and child, and wiped off the face of the earth

THAT is how terrorists work. You CANNOT negotiate with them. They do NOT want peace. They want nothing less than total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide.

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

The United Nations CANNOT tolerate those three truths, because they are not "politically correct" in the "New Age" or the "New World Order," and they run contrary to everything the UN stands for (the end of the Jewish state, and thereby the disproof of the Bible and of the existence of God).

May America NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER even think of turning their backs on Israel. Israel is the ONLY real ally we have in the Middle East. To abandon Israel would be to shoot ourselves in the head or the heart; the day America forakes Israel (may God forever prevent that day from coming) will be the beginning of the end for the USA as a world power, never mind a "SUPERpower."

the religious crap aside, yes, thats how it works. its especially impossible to appease the islamic extremists over israel. there is nothing short of the destruction of israel that will truly appease them.

i dont think the UN is a monolith that has opinions and desires of its own. it has only the aggregate opinion of its member states and as long as the US is on the security council, the UN is not in favor of destroying israel.

picture him saying that with a dainty british accent. wallace was a british lord, educated in england, and not really particularly scottish at all.

You know, initially I believed you...so I checked it out right quick...and I don't see any evidence of that. While his birthdate & birthplace may be disputed, they seem to be all point to Scotland. The surname 'Wallace' does mean Welsh, and he may not have been far removed from England, but it seems that he was, in fact, rather Scottish...

Do you have a source? Not necessarily calling 'Bollocks' on this, but it is news to me...

Geez, next thing you know, someone's going to tell me William the Conquerer was French...;)

a french viking! now there's a great combination...

a french viking! now there's a great combination...

UMM...William the Conquerer was French. I was being a smartass (I thought the ;) gave that away)...are we thinking of the same Conquerer ??

You know, initially I believed you...so I checked it out right quick...and I don't see any evidence of that. While his birthdate & birthplace may be disputed, they seem to be all point to Scotland. The surname 'Wallace' does mean Welsh, and he may not have been far removed from England, but it seems that he was, in fact, rather Scottish...

Do you have a source? Not necessarily calling 'Bollocks' on this, but it is news to me...

I could've sworn...I could've sworn the history channel said something about that...oops. I just tried to find it, and people seem to be saying otherwise. mea culpa.

I could've sworn...I could've sworn the history channel said something about that...oops. I just tried to find it, and people seem to be saying otherwise. mea culpa.

No problem. ;) It's plausible, at least; I almost fell for it. :)

UMM...William the Conquerer was French. I was being a smartass (I thought the ;) gave that away)...are we thinking of the same Conquerer ??

he was norman french - the normans were vikings who settled in france and promised not to kill anybody if they could have normandy. they adopted french language and culture - but they were ethnically scandinavian, origionally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

and this is getting severely off topic. apologies *bows out*

It is NOT because we are invading their countries (Palestine, Iraq) and if we just pull out everything will be hunky-dory.

It is NOT because we are free and democratic and they hate freedom and democracy (OK, they do, but that's not the real reason).

And it is NOT because Islam is an innately violent religion.

What is the reason?

I'll give you a hint. They also hate China and moderate Muslims for the same reason. And if they cared to think about it, they would hate Ecuador, North Korea, Haiti, and even the Nazis for the same reason.

They hate us because we are not like them. We are not radical Muslims who subscribe to extremist interpretations of the Koran. It doesn't matter if we are democratic Judeo-Christians, or atheist communists, or violent Neo-Nazi street gangs, or brainwashed North Koreans.

This means that we cannot simply win by appeasing them. Nor does it mean that by giving them democracy they will automatically become our friends. Nor does it mean that the only solution is exterminating all Muslims (that would work, but at the cost of our own souls, not to mention violating the Constitution AND Bible).

What we can do is work to win the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims. Turn them against the radicals, and the radicals will not last.

We also cannot retreat. Anywhere. In Iraq, for instance, while it started as an experiment in dictator-killing, it has turned into the main battlefield between the radical Muslims and, in this case, the West. If we pull out, they get a huge propaganda victory. If we manage to defeat them, and leave an Iraq capable of standing on its own two feet, then WE have the victory.

And finally, we can take heart in the knowledge that in the end, they are screwed. If they manage to force us out of Iraq, then we have the perfect recipe for a Sunni-Shiite massacre. Imagine Baghdad, minus the Americans, ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST.
Even in a worst-case scenario, where the radical Muslims have taken over the Middle East WITHOUT killing each other off, they would not only have to face the US and her closest allies. They would have to face China, India, Russia, Japan, the Europeans (who, when faced with this direct threat, would grow back the spines they had in World War II), most of Africa, and the entire Western Hemisphere. If nothing else, we outnumber them. By a lot. And we have the vast majority of the world's brainpower. I personally do not see a radical Muslim victory as a reasonable scenario.

Just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there.

i figure they are insane retards that believe the bullshit spoonfed them by the mulllahs..no different then the twits that vote for bush cause he is anti abortion...bunch of retards...exscuse me..retards are not that stupid.

he was norman french - the normans were vikings who settled in france and promised not to kill anybody if they could have normandy. they adopted french language and culture - but they were ethnically scandinavian, origionally.

You're right...Hence the Norman Conquest, Normandy, etc...
Although I still consider the progenitor of my surname to be English, because I just can't be French...:eek:



and this is getting severely off topic. apologies *bows out*

Agreed. *bows out*

What is the reason?



It could be because we assume that we know more about their social, political and religious ideology than they do.

Or it could be that we assign a value to those beliefs--a value lesser than our own social, political and religious values.

Or it could be that we interject ourselves---usually militarily (conventionally or covertly)---into regional affairs without fully understanding (or caring about) the consequences of our actions.

Or it could be that they simply do not want to be told that their form of government is not as "good" as ours.

Or it could be that that they do not view Western-style culture or religion with the same reverence as we do.

Or it could be the result of decades of inconsistent, playing-both-ends-against-the-middle diplomacy on our part among and between rival countries in the region.

Those could be factors which contribute to their perceived "hatred" of the West. Yeah, it's just possible. :headbang:

Whatever you mean by "terrorists," you are not referring to the perpetrators of 9/11 or to osama bin laden or others known to have attacked our interests.

Their stated aim is getting revenge for western intrusion into the middle east.

The attacks of 9/11 were a direct response to the destruction of buildings in the middle east by the americas, as bin Laden has stated clearly.

Terrorism in general has been a direct response to the policies of the israeli government and western support for those policies.

None of this is rocket science, gentlemen.

It is NOT because we are invading their countries (Palestine, Iraq) and if we just pull out everything will be hunky-dory.

It is NOT because we are free and democratic and they hate freedom and democracy (OK, they do, but that's not the real reason).

And it is NOT because Islam is an innately violent religion.

What is the reason?

I'll give you a hint. They also hate China and moderate Muslims for the same reason. And if they cared to think about it, they would hate Ecuador, North Korea, Haiti, and even the Nazis for the same reason.

They hate us because we are not like them. We are not radical Muslims who subscribe to extremist interpretations of the Koran. It doesn't matter if we are democratic Judeo-Christians, or atheist communists, or violent Neo-Nazi street gangs, or brainwashed North Koreans.

This means that we cannot simply win by appeasing them. Nor does it mean that by giving them democracy they will automatically become our friends. Nor does it mean that the only solution is exterminating all Muslims (that would work, but at the cost of our own souls, not to mention violating the Constitution AND Bible).

What we can do is work to win the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims. Turn them against the radicals, and the radicals will not last.

We also cannot retreat. Anywhere. In Iraq, for instance, while it started as an experiment in dictator-killing, it has turned into the main battlefield between the radical Muslims and, in this case, the West. If we pull out, they get a huge propaganda victory. If we manage to defeat them, and leave an Iraq capable of standing on its own two feet, then WE have the victory.

And finally, we can take heart in the knowledge that in the end, they are screwed. If they manage to force us out of Iraq, then we have the perfect recipe for a Sunni-Shiite massacre. Imagine Baghdad, minus the Americans, ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST.
Even in a worst-case scenario, where the radical Muslims have taken over the Middle East WITHOUT killing each other off, they would not only have to face the US and her closest allies. They would have to face China, India, Russia, Japan, the Europeans (who, when faced with this direct threat, would grow back the spines they had in World War II), most of Africa, and the entire Western Hemisphere. If nothing else, we outnumber them. By a lot. And we have the vast majority of the world's brainpower. I personally do not see a radical Muslim victory as a reasonable scenario.

Just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there.


they hate us cause i am alive....dirty bastard that i am...

actually they hate us cause they want to beat/keep the women down,cause they are insecure,and like slavery,"they happy in the dark"

as much as i like the theory of religion(goodness and light...happiness..etc)

no one can argue the fact that religion was/is primarily used to control the common folk.

as much as the muslims/christians/jews like to think it is for god,their god that is suppose to be benevelent,would not torture and commit inhumane acts against the deities subjects.
and i am far from god...and i would not hurt you.
and we are led to believe that this all powerfull god/mohamad/beezelebug,is gonna smite you down?

i was an alter boy,i know right from wrong,i dont need to see someone get their head chopped off to verify my faith in goodness.

i am quite sure...that any deity does not need blood sacrifices..to feel complete,hell i am a smuck,and if i was god.
i would get pissed if you killed or maimed in my name...but that is me.

i like religion...i like the uplifting attitude of it..something bigger then me....but it is ridiculous to think any deity..that is all powerfull needs to see us suffer.

i like religion(although i think it is just a tool to control the masses)but somehow..we need to convince the people that kill in the name of gog..that maybe god dont want that?

if i was god..i would want everyone dancing thru fields of lavender...and i am an asshole..i bet god is smarter then me.


rant off

god is great..right up to the point that you kill people,for your god

It seems to me rather important that we draw a distinction between religion in itself and religion being used as a vehicle to achieve a (non-religious) end. Religion is often times a rather convenient institution to co-opt to achieve power, wealth, dominion, influence, etc, and people in all times and places have used it to achieve just these things. Some people are concious of using religion as a tool; others perhaps do so unconciously. The majority of Muslim extremists seem to be young, lower-class men who feed into the propaganda because a) they have no real opportunities around them, and b) there is a sense of humilitation, both in the middle east and in the Islamic diaspora. This general sense of unease and vulnurability is very easy to exploit.

I think it is also important to understand that the soul of any religious text lies not in the words alone, but in the interpretation of those words. Not everything should be taken literally, but in this modern age we often assume that in order for something to be true, it must be "factual". jihad, for instance, refers primarily to an inner struggle, a concept Christians as well as Muslims are well acquainted with. St. Paul, for instance, says that the spirit wars against the body (in true Platonic form), and St. Augustine writes of this struggle as well in Chapter 19 of City of God.

This is why they hate us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhyt_7tsQmo

Our sense of humor. :)

It seems to me rather important that we draw a distinction between religion in itself and religion being used as a vehicle to achieve a (non-religious) end. Religion is often times a rather convenient institution to co-opt to achieve power, wealth, dominion, influence, etc, and people in all times and places have used it to achieve just these things. Some people are concious of using religion as a tool; others perhaps do so unconciously. The majority of Muslim extremists seem to be young, lower-class men who feed into the propaganda because a) they have no real opportunities around them, and b) there is a sense of humilitation, both in the middle east and in the Islamic diaspora. This general sense of unease and vulnurability is very easy to exploit.

I think it is also important to understand that the soul of any religious text lies not in the words alone, but in the interpretation of those words. Not everything should be taken literally, but in this modern age we often assume that in order for something to be true, it must be "factual". jihad, for instance, refers primarily to an inner struggle, a concept Christians as well as Muslims are well acquainted with. St. Paul, for instance, says that the spirit wars against the body (in true Platonic form), and St. Augustine writes of this struggle as well in Chapter 19 of City of God.

well i cant argue with you,
outstanding.

THAT is how terrorists work. You CANNOT negotiate with them. They do NOT want peace. They want nothing less than total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide.


I missed the bit where Gerry Adams stated the genocide of Jews as an aim of the IRA...

They don't like us invading them (and in fact we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place; George Bush SENIOR should have removed Saddam instead of leaving it for his son W), but you are right; everything will NOT automatically be "hunky-dory" if we pull out.

George Bush Sr. didn't have the right under international law to depose Saddam Hussein: thus the support of the popular rising against him following the Gulf War. Or are you suggesting that he should have just charged in and brought about regime change of a foreign sovereign state anyhow?

THAT is how terrorists work. You CANNOT negotiate with them.

Sure. That is why there have been no improvements in the situation in Northern Ireland in the past 15 years.

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

The United Nations CANNOT tolerate those three truths, because they are not "politically correct" in the "New Age" or the "New World Order," and they run contrary to everything the UN stands for (the end of the Jewish state, and thereby the disproof of the Bible and of the existence of God).

This is so ludicrous that I feel dirty even paying it enough attention to voice my disagreement.

This is so ludicrous that I feel dirty even paying it enough attention to voice my disagreement.

I thought he was being sarcastic? :p

I thought he was being sarcastic? :p

Hard to tell sometimes. He could be a Pat fundi-omatic.

Hard to tell sometimes. He could be a Pat fundi-omatic.

But if he wasn't sacrastic, his statement is so ludicrous it takes away all his credibility.

Assuming he had any to begin with :p

New Granada, our actions may have been the trigger for terrorism, and they certainly make a good rallying point, but they are not the true cause, no more than the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was the cause of World War I.

First of all, regarding Israel, the Islamic extremists don't just want Israel to stop its actions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They want to wipe Israel off the map and exterminate the populace. Read their propaganda and see for yourself - just remember that 'Zionist' is a synonym for 'Jew' in their language. Frankly, it's not entirely inaccurate. While not all Jews support Israel (when have all Jews agreed on anything?) the majority of Jews would consider themselves Zionists. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have a homeland in what is now Israel.

And Whaddyacallit sounds less like a Christian fundie and more like a ultra-Orthodox Jew. See, I know something about what he is talking about, and he has his Bible right. Of course, such an inarticulate argument could be viewed as a chillul Hashem...

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

The United Nations CANNOT tolerate those three truths, because they are not "politically correct" in the "New Age" or the "New World Order," and they run contrary to everything the UN stands for (the end of the Jewish state, and thereby the disproof of the Bible and of the existence of God).

May America NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER even think of turning their backs on Israel. Israel is the ONLY real ally we have in the Middle East. To abandon Israel would be to shoot ourselves in the head or the heart; the day America forakes Israel (may God forever prevent that day from coming) will be the beginning of the end for the USA as a world power, never mind a "SUPERpower."

Someone's been reading the Left Behind series too much.

To abandon Israel would be to shoot ourselves in the head or the heart; the day America forakes Israel (may God forever prevent that day from coming) will be the beginning of the end for the USA as a world power, never mind a "SUPERpower."

I hear there's a sale on ammo somewheres - best stock up, America...

Really? I thought the CIRA hated me because I didn't support the violent imposition of a 32 county Ireland. Ah well, live and learn.would you support 31 counties? :p

You're right about terrorists. This is how they operate:

1. While they are killing you left and right, they come to you and say "Give us this or we'll kill you"
2. You give them "this"
3. As they continue to kill you, they come back and say "Give us THAT and we'll leave you alone in peace"
4. You give them "THAT"
5. While slaughtering you en masse, they come back again and say "If you give us THIS we'll stop killing you"
6. You give them "THIS"
7. While they keep on killing you without any let-up, they come back AGAIN and say "If you give us THAT over there we'll let you live"
8. You give them "THAT over there"
9. Repeat steps 1-8 until you run out of things to give them
10. Without giving you ANY relief from being killed, they come back one more time and say "Give us this or that or we'll kill you", but you have nothing left.
11. You are completely destroyed right down to the last man, woman, and child, and wiped off the face of the earth

THAT is how terrorists work. You CANNOT negotiate with them. They do NOT want peace. They want nothing less than total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide.

The United Nations also wants total, utter, and complete GENOCIDE of the Jewish race, both in Israel and worldwide, because if they CAN'T accomplish that, then that proves the following:

1. The Bible is true, because it says the Jews will have the land of Palestine FOREVER
2. The Jews are God's chosen people, and their modern-day existence, as a sovereign nation and as a race, with the same language they had over 3,000 years ago, is a testament to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.
3. The United Nations is nothing but a hypocritical, lying, hot-air-filled, FUTILE attempt to overthrow and discredit God and His Word, the Bible.

The United Nations CANNOT tolerate those three truths, because they are not "politically correct" in the "New Age" or the "New World Order," and they run contrary to everything the UN stands for (the end of the Jewish state, and thereby the disproof of the Bible and of the existence of God).

May America NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER even think of turning their backs on Israel. Israel is the ONLY real ally we have in the Middle East. To abandon Israel would be to shoot ourselves in the head or the heart; the day America forakes Israel (may God forever prevent that day from coming) will be the beginning of the end for the USA as a world power, never mind a "SUPERpower."

:rolleyes:

Is that so. You seem to conveniently forget to mention the part where the U.N creates Israel, say around late 1940's.

would you support 31 counties? :p

I'm still waiting for them to give back our 26.

I hear there's a sale on ammo somewheres - best stock up, America...

Should get Israel to use restraint with the weaponry we give them. If they are going to use their military as ruthlessly as they have been then we should cut back our aid to them. Let them try to kill Palestinians so easily without American dollars supporting them!